How tight should a drummer's time be?

Great discussion so far! What i'm really getting at is if i'm playing with a band at a gig and I can't use a click (for various reasons) and say the song is 100BPM, how close should a good drummer be able to stick to this tempo? (you can measure it using the LiveBPM app or similar) Hope that makes sense?

Thanks, and let the discussion continue!
 
peety777 said:
Great discussion so far! What i'm really getting at is if i'm playing with a band at a gig and I can't use a click (for various reasons) and say the song is 100BPM, how close should a good drummer be able to stick to this tempo? (you can measure it using the LiveBPM app or similar) Hope that makes sense?

Thanks, and let the discussion continue!
Click to expand...
Record your performance, & use that to improve. Measuring live bpm is viable, but to me, it has little value outside of curiosity. Keeping good time is all about listening, then internalising that pulse. In a live performance context, relying on a machine to tell you if your time is out isn't helping you appraise the important factors. In most genres, a bit of push & pull is desirable. It builds tension/propagates release/adds excitement/delivers mood. It also makes music real. Personally, I see little value/pleasure in seeking to reproduce a perfect studio take on a live stage, otherwise, what's the point in live music! It needs to breathe, but that's no excuse to be sloppy. In the end, it's all about the vibe, & if a song ends up 5bpm faster at the close than it did at the start, but the vibe is superb, then as far as I'm concerned = job done!
 
keep it simple said:
Record your performance, & use that to improve. Measuring live bpm is viable, but to me, it has little value outside of curiosity. Keeping good time is all about listening, then internalising that pulse. In a live performance context, relying on a machine to tell you if your time is out isn't helping you appraise the important factors. In most genres, a bit of push & pull is desirable. It builds tension/propagates release/adds excitement/delivers mood. It also makes music real. Personally, I see little value/pleasure in seeking to reproduce a perfect studio take on a live stage, otherwise, what's the point in live music! It needs to breathe, but that's no excuse to be sloppy. In the end, it's all about the vibe, & if a song ends up 5bpm faster at the close than it did at the start, but the vibe is superb, then as far as I'm concerned = job done!
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If I could have worded it so well, this would have been my reply also.
I've recently been recording some stuff to click track in the studio and do find it seems to rob some of our material of its emotion. There are some songs that obviously suit a very strict BPM blueprint but others definitely suffer as a result. for want of a better way of putting it, I think it is just as important a skill to be able to play outside of the rhythm as it is to be able to maintain it to the millisecond.
 
elastic time is great ..... can cause beautiful tension and release if every player in the room is riding the same wave.

what you want to avoid is one guy in the room dragging or pushing ....or a player rushing a beat within a measure and not giving the note it's value to give it that uneasy record skipping feel

playing to a click in no way shape or form means you have "good time"

it means you are playing to a click ....thats it

I have 9 year old students who can play to a click

does this mean they are ready to track a record?

I hear guys all the time who think they sound good because they were "playing to a click" ......when in reality they sound like they are chasing a chicken around a farm

if you are in a situation where a click track is involved......the true art is to play "with" the click....not "to" the click.

the click is the nucleolus.....you need to be the cytoplasm and cell membrane that flows around it to make music sound natural

as Elvin Jones once told me seconds after he pushed the sticks I was holding down firmly to the snare drum with his enormous hand......" stop thinking about beats per minute and play f***ing music please."

Elvin did not allow a metronome in the drum studio when I was there .......he always said....." your time is fine ......play music, feel music "
 
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Both of those are great points. The liveBPM app is good because you can set it and analyse your performance after but I see exactly what you mean in terms of speeding up or slowing down slightly as a band. This is great!
 
Anthony Amodeo said:
as Elvin Jones once told me seconds after he pushed the sticks I was holding down firmly to the snare drum with his enormous hand......" stop thinking about beats per minute and play f***ing music please."

Elvin did not allow a metronome in the drum studio when I was there .......he always said....." your time is fine ......play music, feel music "
Click to expand...

So, so awesome.

20202020
 
Anthony Amodeo said:
as Elvin Jones once told me seconds after he pushed the sticks I was holding down firmly to the snare drum with his enormous hand......" stop thinking about beats per minute and play f***ing music please."

Elvin did not allow a metronome in the drum studio when I was there .......he always said....." your time is fine ......play music, feel music "
Click to expand...

Elvin such a badass. You are a lucky sob, you know that?
 
I'm a big believer that all musicians should only be using a metronome for reference. It's far more difficult to keep time solid without hearing a constant click; having a metronome that clicks X bars and rests Y bars really helps.
 
Metronome work should be done in the woodshed to get your inner clock developed.

The truth is, the audience don't give a shit if you are playing a particular song perfectly at 100bpm. The lament wants to feel and enjoy the music. Nobody driving on the way home from a performance ever says "wow that band tonight played perfectly in time"

It is YOUR job as the drummer to play good time - so to answer your question, how tight? very tight. That's your job. Develop the skill. Have the click click click pulse running through your brain and body when the metronome is not there.

I believe the time to work this stuff out is NOT on the bandstand. When you are on stage your job is to feel the music and play it in good time....ebbing a flowing with the other musicians if necessary, and giving them the solid foundation to work upon.

Do your homework at home. When on stage, just do.
 
peety777 said:
Great discussion so far! What i'm really getting at is if i'm playing with a band at a gig and I can't use a click (for various reasons) and say the song is 100BPM, how close should a good drummer be able to stick to this tempo? (you can measure it using the LiveBPM app or similar) Hope that makes sense?

Thanks, and let the discussion continue!
Click to expand...

Like Tony just related: It's not about BPM and how many numbers it moves or doesn't move. It's about the music feeling good. Doesn't matter if you were 100% time accurate if the song didn't feel good.
 
Dr_Watso said:
And I don't kid myself. If someone tells me I'm the time keeper, I tell them they are wrong. Everyone touching an instrument, or even singing needs to keep time. The same time as me. Following each other around doesn't make good live music in my opinion.
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Absolutely, time keeping is everyone responsibility within the band, usually the drummer count the song off, but not always.

peety777 said:
What i'm really getting at is if i'm playing with a band at a gig and I can't use a click (for various reasons) and say the song is 100BPM, how close should a good drummer be able to stick to this tempo? (you can measure it using the LiveBPM app or similar) Hope that makes sense?!
Click to expand...

Practicing with a time reference is crucial to develop good timing, but in a live situation, you shouldn't focus on bpm value and how close enough you are to the original tempo, you should focus on making the music sounds good.

Anthony Amodeo said:
elastic time is great ..... can cause beautiful tension and release if every player in the room is riding the same wave.
Click to expand...

Totally agree, it's what makes the music alive.

To rush and drag a little in the appropriate places within a song is even desirable, the key to elastic time is accuracy of the execution of the music, if everyone is together it will be almost unnoticeable.
 
+1 On this.Like I've said before,it's about the the music,the feel of a tune that matters.Just play it and everything will take care of itself.

Music should be organic,played by humans and if the time is slightly flawed,then so be it.

The reason clicks are used in the studio so often is because of production bugets and plug-ins.Time is money,and running over buget is a huge no-no.Getting it right, in as few takes as possible is the golden rule.

Like Elvin said "play MUSIC......FEEL MUSIC.......and don't let music become a slave to any single aspect like BPM.

Steve B
 
Anthony Amodeo said:
elastic time is great ..... can cause beautiful tension and release if every player in the room is riding the same wave.

what you want to avoid is one guy in the room dragging or pushing ....or a player rushing a beat within a measure and not giving the note it's value to give it that uneasy record skipping feel

playing to a click in no way shape or form means you have "good time"

it means you are playing to a click ....thats it

I have 9 year old students who can play to a click

does this mean they are ready to track a record?

I hear guys all the time who think they sound good because they were "playing to a click" ......when in reality they sound like they are chasing a chicken around a farm

if you are in a situation where a click track is involved......the true art is to play "with" the click....not "to" the click.

the click is the nucleolus.....you need to be the cytoplasm and cell membrane that flows around it to make music sound natural

as Elvin Jones once told me seconds after he pushed the sticks I was holding down firmly to the snare drum with his enormous hand......" stop thinking about beats per minute and play f***ing music please."

Elvin did not allow a metronome in the drum studio when I was there .......he always said....." your time is fine ......play music, feel music "
Click to expand...

Abso-f'n-lutely!

Unfortunately most contemporary music has relegated itself to the impossible chase of playing perfect time.... I'll stop my rant here before I get banned from this place....

You are one of the truly fortunate to of had your time with Elvin. I always love the stories you post. Someday I'm getting my but there, buying you the food and beer and listening to more.
 
There's plenty of bands who don't play their own songs at original tempo when they play them live (often they play them a bit faster). Why? Because the recording is a moment in time, and the song keeps evolving past that point quite often in popular music (and especially in genres other than pop or rock),

Usually if there's something in a live production (like video or a sequenced track) that requires perfect time and tempo, there's a click -- and usually if you're at that level of live act, I would think everyone on stage has the click in their ear (the drummer almost certainly does).

Many times to start a song I will lock eyes with the bass player or rhythm guitarist and we will begin nodding together silently. Without playing, we are already setting up the tempo and groove in our heads. Then I click my sticks to that, and off we go. It may not be right on the exact tempo we recorded the song at (or the original artist did), but it lends itself to a musical performance of the song (and oh yes, my +1 on what Elvin said -- brilliant).

I want organic feeling to my music, I want time to be able to flex and breathe without dragging or rushing too badly; that's the musical equivalent of trapeze without a net, and sometimes we fall. But the experience is far more meaningful, and maybe a little edgier.
 
This is really good, getting far more discussion than I thought. What I take from this and everything on this forum is invaluable, so thank you very much:) Not to practicing locking int he music and letting it feel amazing! Peace!
 
Remember that many of the folks saying to let the song breathe, are people who have put in hours and hours with a metronome getting in control of what they are doing. I have a friend/mentor who's constantly telling me that. But in other conversations he'll admit there was a time 30 years ago when he was studying with Chuck Brown and doing rudiments on a hi-hat cup with a metronome. There is a difference between woodshedding and live performance. In one you are trying to develop the tools, in the other you are using them. Just be clear what your goal is. There's nothing wrong with switching on the liveBPM app while practicing or at a band rehearsal just as a check to see if you really have internalized the time. If there is a variance, you should know whether it was deliberate, you got dragged off by something someone else was doing, or you lost it on your own. If you thought you were on the entire time and things were going great, then it's back to the woodshed. Your time is not as good as you thought. If you sensed some feeling of struggle or uncomfortableness then you were probably at odds with someone else's wayward time and gave in to it. And of course if you felt it speeding up or slowing down and it felt like the right thing to be doing at that point in the song, then you are golden. You are doing what the "feel" players are advocating. Just be honest with yourself about what you are doing and why.
 
I play mostly in worship bands and each leader is different.

I follow the leader so they don't look stupid. This can mean the timing is all over the place.

After a song I asked: "you really slowed that down"! And the leader said "yeah I meant to"! So that's OK.

Other leaders look at the drummer and say the tempo is too high or low, but with absolutely no concept that they slow down at the end of each vocal line.

You have to be a bit thick-skinned rather than explain how useless they are in front of the band. One day my patience will blow though ...

In truth you should never notice the tempo as a listener. If you do there's something wrong.

Davo
 
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