No More Bias

keep it simple said:
Two points;

Glue- when you factor in the glue for the skived joint & the rerings, there's not a lot in it, & in both cases, a fraction of the glue used in multiple ply. I also believe the glue thing, especially on a drum with lugs bolted to the shell, is overblown in it's importance.

Waste- the waste with stave is comparable with the waste associated with selecting just the right plank to bend. Especially true on bigger drums, whereas stave can be made from much smaller sections, often offcuts. My new kit project is constructed from reclaimed wood. Not only is that environmentally a great thing, the wood is sonically far superior to newly harvested timber. As stave & segmented can be built from small sections of wood, it's the most viable form of construction if you want to use reclaimed timber. The mahogany for my kit was harvested 200+ years ago, so it's had some time to mature, lol!

As with all these things, dig beyond the surface, & the perception is often flipped over. I'm not biased though, I love all well made drums, but I have preferences like everyone else.
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See. Now I didn't think about the fact that you can use small pieces of good wood, compared to trying to find a large board of good quality wood. Makes sense. I guess it is the amount of wood that you have to take off of a stave and segmented drum that is waste.
 
mattsmith said:
Yeah, but you've got to admit those white drums of his are pretty cool...although I still have no idea what he does with all of them lol.
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I don't know, but I admit, I'd love to sit behind that kit and go crazy for a few minutes! :)





(Never mind my 9pc is stacked in the corner, because I feel more comfortable behind a 5pc)
 
DrumEatDrum said:
I don't know, but I admit, I'd love to sit behind that kit and go crazy for a few minutes! :)





(Never mind my 9pc is stacked in the corner, because I feel more comfortable behind a 5pc)
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You are more than welcome, any time you are up here.
 
sticks4drums said:
If the drums did not matter than you would see all your favorite pros playing junk at there houses. Why spend the extra money if there is no difference.
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If they mattered as much as everyone would like to think they did, you wouldn't see pro's hopping from one endorsement to another.

Vinnie still sounds like Vinnie, on a Grestch or a Yamaha.

Although I'd never be as silly as to compare a generic brand Chinese kit with a top-o-the-range DW or the like. I just think there is more middle ground with respect to quality drum construction than many care to admit. I truely believe a good player sounds like a good player, on any kit. :)
 
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Pocket-full-of-gold said:
If they mattered as much as everyone would like to think they did, you wouldn't see pro's hopping from one endorsement to another.

Vinnie still sounds like Vinnie, on a Grestch or a Yamaha.

Although I'd never be as silly as to compare a generic brand Chinese kit with a top-o-the-range DW or the like. I just think there is more middle ground with respect to quality drum construction than many care to admit. I truely believe a good player sounds like a good player, on any kit. :)
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Well the pros are hopping from one top of the line kit, to another. They are not jumping from one companies top of the line kit to anothers garbage. What they get paid to play might also be different than what they use at home in their own studio.

Not sure what China has to do with anything, but I would put my kit up against any American made DW kit, because I did, and my kit won, in my opinion. People get all brand washed into thinking they are doing some magical thing with their kits. They are using American Maple just like 30 other companies out there are. They just have all these cool names for their construction, and all these top players they pay to play their kits. It worked for Ludwig, I guess it can work for DW. Hey they have you convinced. :)
 
Pocket-full-of-gold said:
If they mattered as much as everyone would like to think they did, you wouldn't see pro's hopping from one endorsement to another.

Vinnie still sounds like Vinnie, on a Grestch or a Yamaha.

Although I'd never be as silly as to compare a generic brand Chinese kit with a top-o-the-range DW or the like. I just think there is more middle ground with respect to quality drum construction than many care to admit. I truely believe a good player sounds like a good player, on any kit. :)
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I pretty much agree with this statement. My first drum instructor was a truly incredible jazz/big band player in the style of Buddy Rich or Louie Bellson. He could set up any drum kit in his shop, from cheap student models to top of the line Rogers, and he made them ALL sing.

That's not to say we shouldn't have preferences, but there are more similarities among drum gear than differences, IMO.
 
Pocket-full-of-gold said:
Yep....convinced me all the way to buying a second hand Chinese made Gretsch Catalina Maple. Is that what you meant? Or did you mean that I am convinced that it's the player and not the kit? If so....damn straight. :)
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I am talking about the DW to China made drum comparison, like the Chinese workers don't know how to make a drum.
 
sticks4drums said:
I am talking about the DW to China made drum comparison, like the Chinese workers don't know how to make a drum.
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You didn't read my post then mate. My words were: "Although I'd never be as silly as to compare a generic brand Chinese kit with a top-o-the-range DW or the like."

Nowhere did I insinuate that the Chinese made bad drums....you're using your own words to counter my argument here....not mine. I'm merely stating that it's the drummer who makes the difference, not the kit. But I also wanted to assert that I do indeed see a difference between a quality kit and some generic (or no-name) branded kit.

It was a statement made to encourage some debate on your earlier post that stated:

"Don't worry KIS, it is a nice little saying buy it only goes so far. A nice sounding instrument will even sound nice if a little kid goes up to it and just pounds on one drum plucks one string, or plays one key. Sometimes, I get my wife to play my kit just so I can sit out front and listen. Now put a pro on a nice kit and then you get the perfect combo.

Put a pro on a crappy sounding kit, and yes he will still be able to play all his chops, and the feel will be there for all to hear how amazing he is, but the sound is still going to be crappy."

Ever heard a beginner play a violin? I don't care if it's a Strad. it doesn't sound nice in any way shape or form. Yet a master can make the cheapest violin sound majestic.

Anyways, it's no stress old mate....it's all just conversation. All I was trying to do was assert the point that I believe that it's the Indian...not the arrow.
 
Pocket-full-of-gold said:
You didn't read my post then mate. My words were: "Although I'd never be as silly as to compare a generic brand Chinese kit with a top-o-the-range DW or the like."

Nowhere did I insinuate that the Chinese made bad drums....you're using your own words to counter my argument here....not mine. I'm merely stating that it's the drummer who makes the difference, not the kit. But I also wanted to assert that I do indeed see a difference between a quality kit and some generic (or no-name) branded kit.

It was a statement made to encourage some debate on your earlier post that stated:

"Don't worry KIS, it is a nice little saying buy it only goes so far. A nice sounding instrument will even sound nice if a little kid goes up to it and just pounds on one drum plucks one string, or plays one key. Sometimes, I get my wife to play my kit just so I can sit out front and listen. Now put a pro on a nice kit and then you get the perfect combo.

Put a pro on a crappy sounding kit, and yes he will still be able to play all his chops, and the feel will be there for all to hear how amazing he is, but the sound is still going to be crappy."

Ever heard a beginner play a violin? I don't care if it's a Strad. it doesn't sound nice in any way shape or form. Yet a master can make the cheapest violin sound majestic.

Anyways, it's no stress old mate....it's all just conversation. All I was trying to do was assert the point that I believe that it's the Indian...not the arrow.
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I am tired and these sites piss me off some times. It is like spinning your wheels. :) I just think your comment is too black and white. If the kit did not matter we would all by Wesbury and that would be the end of it. The violin is definitely the extreme example, but hey you can use it.

I think we are saying the same thing in a way. Please admit that better quality drums sound better than lower quality drums, no matter who is on them. Yes I agree that a better player can make a bad sound less noticable, but a bad sounding drum, is a bad sounding drum, no matter who plays it. Does that work. :)
 
sticks4drums said:
I am tired and these sites piss me off some times. It is like spinning your wheels. :)
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I hear you mate....loud and clear. Yet here we are. Who're the silly ones then? :)

sticks4drums said:
I just think your comment is too black and white. If the kit did not matter we would all by Wesbury and that would be the end of it. The violin is definitely the extreme example, but hey you can use it.
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And I thought your comment was too black and white too. Hence my post. But FWIW, I think that's the beauty of these forums. Ideas collide and somewhere in the middle is a workable solution.

Although I don't see how the violin example is any more or less extreme as any other instrument.

sticks4drums said:
I think we are saying the same thing in a way.
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I think we're both saying the same thing in a way too. Perhaps it's been a meeting of two extremes and the ultimate truth lies somewhere in the middle.

sticks4drums said:
Please admit that better quality drums sound better than lower quality drums, no matter who is on them. Yes I agree that a better player can make a bad sound less noticable, but a bad sounding drum, is a bad sounding drum, no matter who plays it.
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Better quality drums sound better....no question. But I've seen too many good players make crappy kits sound far better than what they are, in my time to totally dismiss the merit of the actual player.

sticks4drums said:
Does that work. :)
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Of course it works mate. I enjoy your input here. You've got some great things to say in your posts and I hope you continue to do so. This is a discussion Sticks4, not a shit fight. I guarantee you this would work a hell of a lot better at a bar over a few beers.......your shout! :)
 
sticks4drums said:
Please admit that better quality drums sound better than lower quality drums, no matter who is on them.
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Drums sound good when played with good technique, and sound best when properly tuned and "headed" for whatever sound the drummer is looking for. A good drummer can pull sounds out of a 200 dollar drum kit that a beginner could never hope to make on the most expensive and elaborate kits you could imagine. The different tones one drum kit makes compared to another are really not that important, and a "good" drum sound is quite subjective, to understate a bit...

I guess my point is, I've heard really cheap kits sound amazing, and I've heard really expensive custom kits that sound like garbage to my ear. If anything, I'd have to say that the money really does influence sound quality more in the cymbals than the drums, but even then, I've heard some really great things out of some really cheap cymbals before. Regardless the costs involved, the biggest influence on the end sound has always been the drummer, from my perspective anyway.
 
sticks4drums said:
Well the pros are hopping from one top of the line kit, to another. ...... What they get paid to play might also be different than what they use at home in their own studio.
:)
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What's this? The pros getting paid to play a certain brand of drum? Hmm - this topic came up in a cymbals conversation and there was a very adamant stance that no-one got paid to play certain cymbals (not say it was you s4d).....

sticks4drums said:
I am talking about the DW to China made drum comparison, like the Chinese workers don't know how to make a drum.
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That's not very politically correct ...... ;-)
 
Dr_Watso said:
Drums sound good when played with good technique, and sound best when properly tuned and "headed" for whatever sound the drummer is looking for. A good drummer can pull sounds out of a 200 dollar drum kit that a beginner could never hope to make on the most expensive and elaborate kits you could imagine. The different tones one drum kit makes compared to another are really not that important, and a "good" drum sound is quite subjective, to understate a bit...

I guess my point is, I've heard really cheap kits sound amazing, and I've heard really expensive custom kits that sound like garbage to my ear. If anything, I'd have to say that the money really does influence sound quality more in the cymbals than the drums, but even then, I've heard some really great things out of some really cheap cymbals before. Regardless the costs involved, the biggest influence on the end sound has always been the drummer, from my perspective anyway.
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I have to agree with your post completely.I have heard drummers play top of the line drums and cymbals and just plain sound terrible,because they lack the technique or ability to pull the best sound out of their instrument.And I have heard the reverse.

Steve Gadds drum tech said one time"he could make tupperware sound good",and I have no doubt.I don't have the link,but there's a youtube vid of Gene Krupa playing a box of matches,with a pair of match sticks..Thats an extreme example,but it illustrates the point that although you can give a Statavarius to a beginner;when he plays,what you will get is noise.Give the same violin to Pearlman and............

Steve B
 
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