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  #1  
Old 11-25-2012, 02:01 PM
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Default Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

I'd usually put this in the drums section, but I'm after a more general view, especially from those who aren't that interested in gear per se. To add context, I've included images of the journey we made with the Origin series lugs. Depending on the width of your screen page, hopefully, you can see the different stages in some form of order (I have no idea how to change image screen positions, or how to title multiple images), ending with a photo of the finished result.

The images at the bottom are computer renders of our new Artisan series lugs. Effectively acting as a low mass tube lug, the centre section is 2mm diameter stainless steel, & can be adjusted to fit anything from a 5.5" deep snare to a 20" deep bass drum. Renders always look a bit weird compared to the real life end result (hence me including an Origin lug photo). The finished result won't have all those lines & breaks. Also, this is a render of a snare lug set, tom & bass drum sets will have a longer "bullet" section, rather like origin lugs.

Anyhow, I hope you enjoy a glimpse into the design process, & I'm super keen to get your impression of the new series lugs depicted in the 3 images at the bottom. Please remember, they'll be a lot smaller than the images you're seeing. of course, all designed & made in the UK.

Cheers, Andy.
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  #2  
Old 11-25-2012, 02:14 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

In my opinion, they are too futuristic looking to be on such a classy looking kit.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:25 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

I have to say (and I have plenty of experience looking at wire frame outlined cad drawings) that the lugs on the drum in the real life pic are the best looking.

The revision with the machined grooves (bottom pic) strikes me as a step away from the visually attractive/proportionate look of the lugs you have already built. Like something you did because you could do rather than because it needed to be done. I might suggest eliminating those fins in favor of a curved section that tapers to a thin waist line and flares back out to make a slightly larger footprint on the shell for stability (an hourglass shape in elevation- square or rectangular in cross section). I think it would be more in keeping with the natural lines of the drums and less "machined" looking.

Those drums have a natural feel to them and the current lugs are just enough machine age for my taste. Like the chrome points on the 1950's american cars. More than that and I think you may risk looking too aeronautical. Too much like airplane parts which would be fine but I think might not be a good direction for the line.

Hoping this level of critique is what you are looking for.... apologies if not. haha.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

First impression- very minimalist lugs. Looks as if you don't want the lugs to be noticed that much?
I have to agree with the futuristic comment- these would look killer on many drums, just not so sure about seeing them on Guru's which have that "old school/ classy" feel about them.
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  #5  
Old 11-25-2012, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

I like the minimalistic, clean, classy look of the ones on the real picture Guru drums. the rest are a turn off, the "Jetsons" look. Less is more, simple is often elegant.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

I like them. I like the look, and the function. I like innovation.

I cannot say the drums sound better than anything else out there, but the craftsmanship and beauty are certainly there.

Question, forgive my lack of observation. I am assuming the lugs just float, hook behind the ring, which basically would allow for placement anywhere around the circumference of the drum?
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  #7  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

I like the plain smooth ones. Very retro and classy.
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  #8  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

I like the lugs. Futuristic/machine age, yes, but totally cool precisely for that reason. Dare I say those drums would look great with that hardware and a nice lacquer....even a wrap [although I know that would kill the whole point].

But they would still look good. Chrome or brushed.

I can relate to people's feelings about it not matching the wood grain, but I don't think it doesn't compliment it....it just gives you something else unique to appreciate, if that makes sense.
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

I like the original design. Classy, easy to clean. It fits. Are you not happy w/ the original design? I love it.

Since we're on the subject of lugs, I have to ask...

As Andy knows, I've had a vision in my head of drums w/ the rings on the outside, just like the Guru's, except in my head, I envisioned no lugs, the tension rods go through the outer ring, with a simple nut pressed into the ring somehow. It would eliminate a world of headache designing lugs, plus it has to eliminate some real cost, and I thought, with less metal on the drum, that's a good thing right?

I realize that the aesthetic of the Guru rings is gorgeous, as my idea would require either a thicker ring, or basically, wood protrusions at each tension rod where a nut is pressed into it.

Andy did you consider the no lug route?

Again, I prefer the aesthetic of the original design. It looks like a bullet you would kill a werewolf with. Or am I thinking of a vampire?

I think that the only change I would make in the original design is to shorten the bullet looking part. But I'm picking nits, I love the original design. The smooth metal appeals to me, as it's real easy to keep clean, no lines to trap grime.
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  #10  
Old 11-25-2012, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

Hey Larry. The thing I like about the lugs is that it looks familiar, without actually penetrating or touching the shell. I think what you are talking about is like Tard's Peavey Radials. I think their look actually hurt them with the buying public. They may of worked sound wise, but not so much aesthetically. It is a fine balance between form, and function I think. Andy's lug rings, for lack of the proper term, are just big enough to accept the pins on the lugs, but not too bulky that they stick way out, making the drum look too heavy.
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  #11  
Old 11-25-2012, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

Agree Glen about the aesthetics of the Radials...sorry but they look goofy. I bet they sound pretty close to Andy's Guru's but the aesthetic of the Guru's is pure class, where the aesthetic of the Radials is cartoonish, JMO. No offense Tard, I bet they sound killer with the thin shells, but the thick rounded rings I think are it's Achilles heel as far as the aesthetic of the look.
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  #12  
Old 11-25-2012, 07:55 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

I agree with Glen's first post, they look like a gimmick. Those beautiful shells should be the focal point, not the hardware. I think a more minimal lug would look better on these shells.

These, to me, look like something a company would put on drums targeting the metal crowd. I really do like the look of the drums overall.
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  #13  
Old 11-25-2012, 09:31 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

Thanks for all your replies guys - extremely useful. I obviously didn't explain myself very clearly. There's no proposed change to the Origin lugs. We're very happy with them. Not only does the design work supremely well, it has a universally accepted aesthetic, & as a side issue, it also happens to be an impressive piece of design engineering. Machining that out of solid as a two operation sequence is quite a feat.

I included the Origin lug design journey shots as context, it's the three captures at the bottom we're considering, not for the Origin series, but for a new series of drums called the Artisan series. This new series will complete the Guru range, and the proposed lugs will bolt directly to the shell in the traditional fashion. The 2mm stainless steel bar that connects the two lugs effectively turns two low mass single point lugs into a tube lug, but not as you know it.

What I'm picking up here, is that the three concentric grooves on the lug standoff are a detail step too far. Better if they were plain or scolloped. The "bullet" on these new lugs is identical in primary form to the Origin lug, only in the case of snare applications, a touch shorter.

Larry, yes, we considered threaded inserts into a larger external rering, but the performance wasn't as good as the Origin design. That additional mass really changes how the shell reacts to input/stimulus. Although I very much admire & like the sound of radials, the difference between the requirements of a solid shell compared to a ply shell means the radial bridge principal isn't the optimum option. & yes, aesthetics were a consideration too. Drummers are mostly ultra conservative. They expect lugs, It's just a happy coincidence that our option with lugs also works better than a radial bridge. BTW, for the record, Peavey radial shell construction, apart from being ply shells, is also very different to the Origin series. In the Peavey design, the bearing edges are on the radial ring, with the shell glued/pressed into the rings. With Origin, the bearing edges are on the shell, as with standard drum constructions. That difference impacts how the shell transmits vibrations to the batter head, especially with stave shells.
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  #14  
Old 11-25-2012, 09:40 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

your drums look great with just about any lugs you would put on them..they are really classy drums.. my first opinion though was the RCI bomb lug they used on one of there snares..
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  #15  
Old 11-25-2012, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

As far as the Origin series is concerned, the lugs fits the drums perfectly in terms of aesthetic, for whatever reasons, the lugs on the picture of the classic kit seems to look bigger than in real life, in the "flesh" they seem to be omnipresent, revealing the beauty of the shells.

It's only part of the story, they're also extremely light weight, and when compared to the total amount of "normal" lugs typically fitted on a shell, the difference is very noticeable, and combined with the classic light shell construction, it makes for the lightest drum I ever hold in my hands in my entire life.

But look and practicality aside, is the sound of the origin series that's mind blowing, these are the only drums in the past 25 years that made me considering buying a new kit, as at the exception of aesthetic and minor hardware benefit, I'm not convinced that another ply shells construction would sound much different than my beloved Tama maple ply shells, but this new line of drums certainly changed my view, especially the "cappucino" (pictured in this thread), once I have the money to treat myself, I'll definitely get an Origin classic kit, unless the forthcoming "Artisan" series is even better.

As far as the new lugs is concerned, I would also prefer a polished finish opposed to the three concentric grooves on the lug standoff, but this is minor details.
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  #16  
Old 11-25-2012, 10:38 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

I really love the look (and feel) of the lugs that you have already on the Origin range. I really wouldn't change them at all. I think they are just beautiful.
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  #17  
Old 11-25-2012, 11:07 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

Very classily phallic, not an easy thing to pull off, so to speak. But, as you know, I'm not an authority of bearing lugs and grommet edges ...

They will look good on my new drums :)
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  #18  
Old 11-25-2012, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

Those lugs are innovative but look like small bullets to me. Not my thing, I would not go with them.
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  #19  
Old 11-25-2012, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Very classily phallic, not an easy thing to pull off, so to speak. But, as you know, I'm not an authority of bearing lugs and grommet edges ...

They will look good on my new drums :)
Are you getting a set of GURU's? :)
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  #20  
Old 11-26-2012, 12:45 AM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

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Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
As far as the new lugs is concerned, I would also prefer a polished finish opposed to the three concentric grooves on the lug standoff, but this is minor details.
Thanks all for chiming in. This is most helpful stuff :)

Receiving the message loud & clear about those groove details Henri, & now it's been mentioned, I agree.

Again, to clear any confusion, there are no proposed changes to the Origin lugs. We're working on the new series lugs right now. Most specifically, the new snare lugs.

& yes Grea, those phallic chaps will look beautiful adorning your drums :)
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  #21  
Old 11-26-2012, 02:36 AM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

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Are you getting a set of GURU's? :)
Indeedy. Funny thing is my tuning is pretty trashy so it will be interesting to see how forgiving these beasties are :)
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:48 AM
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Indeedy. Funny thing is my tuning is pretty trashy so it will be interesting to see how forgiving these beasties are :)
Congratulations! I am sure you will love them. You could have some custom GREA badges made for the kit! :)
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  #23  
Old 11-26-2012, 03:55 AM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

Part of me likes the lugs and part of me doesn't.
I think that I would like them more if they were a bit fatter and blunter.
I also would prefer a claw of some sort on the BD.
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:38 AM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

The lugs have a retro look to them, except no vintage drums ever had lugs like that. Considering how the tuning bolt must fit into them, this is an elegant and minimal design.

I like them. Custom drums deserve custom lugs - my ironwood drums have lugs especially made for the set, although they do not look so outstanding as yours.
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:59 AM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

I think the 2mm SS center portion will be suspectable to transport damage. Yes its SS, but 2mm is not much. A knock and its dented.
I am assuming that I have understood the design correctly and the the 2mm dia SS connect the top lug with the bottom lug.

I am also not sure how great it will look because of the small diameter.

thx

jorn
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:14 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

Personally I have always disliked the tom lugs that go all the way from top to bottom. Thats just me. I guess they look too much like marching snares or something and they take away from the finish of the drum. I like the ones in the picture a lot. But you added designed and made in the uk....will they rust and fall apart like a Lancia....hahahaha sorry Andy Its been a long holiday here.
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  #27  
Old 11-27-2012, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
The lugs have a retro look to them, except no vintage drums ever had lugs like that. Considering how the tuning bolt must fit into them, this is an elegant and minimal design.

I like them. Custom drums deserve custom lugs - my ironwood drums have lugs especially made for the set, although they do not look so outstanding as yours.
Thank you, but I think I'm going to have to make some changes. The responses here have been extremely useful

Quote:
Originally Posted by jornthedrummer View Post
I think the 2mm SS center portion will be suspectable to transport damage. Yes its SS, but 2mm is not much. A knock and its dented.
I am assuming that I have understood the design correctly and the the 2mm dia SS connect the top lug with the bottom lug.

I am also not sure how great it will look because of the small diameter.

thx

jorn
Cheers Jorn. I agree about potential damage, but I've also done some more calculations, & I'm not satisfied with the strength either.

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But you added designed and made in the uk....will they rust and fall apart like a Lancia....hahahaha sorry Andy Its been a long holiday here.
No problem, I welcome your taunts ;) BTW, Lancia are Italian :)

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Part of me likes the lugs and part of me doesn't.
I think that I would like them more if they were a bit fatter and blunter.
I also would prefer a claw of some sort on the BD.
Why a claw on the bass drum hoops Bob? Traditional look, or a practical reason? We can't easily fit claws to segmented hoops, plus they add a lot to the weight.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

I like a claw mainly for looks. Even if it was something that resembled a claw.
I think that it would add something to the appearance of the bass drum.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:15 AM
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I like a claw mainly for looks. Even if it was something that resembled a claw.
I think that it would add something to the appearance of the bass drum.
Thanks for that Bob. I know where you're coming from, but that would be technically difficult to achieve. We could do a "wrap around" false claw, but on segmented hoops, I think it would look too bulky. I appreciate your observation though. Moving away from a design aesthetic that's been in place for decades is always a risk.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:56 AM
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Thanks for that Bob. I know where you're coming from, but that would be technically difficult to achieve. We could do a "wrap around" false claw, but on segmented hoops, I think it would look too bulky. I appreciate your observation though. Moving away from a design aesthetic that's been in place for decades is always a risk.
Perhaps a cast insert in the segmented hoop at each lug point, to contrast with the wood?
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:28 AM
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Perhaps a cast insert in the segmented hoop at each lug point, to contrast with the wood?
Good suggestion Ian, but it would have to be super thin. Any metal thickness would detract from the strength of the hoop, also, adding weight for purely aesthetic reasons goes against the entire design principal "if it doesn't contribute to the sound or function, it doesn't make it onto an Origin drum". Great to get everyone's thoughts on aesthetics though, as how it looks is one of the biggest reasons players buy drums.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:42 PM
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No problem, I welcome your taunts ;) BTW, Lancia are Italian :)
Damn! I better get my facts straight before I taunt!! Thats what i get for watching Top Gear too late at night, it gets fuzzy in my brain.lol sitting here how the hell did i miss an Italian name being from Italy?!?! Seriously I like the lugs on the Origins, not long lugs on toms. Thats just me. now if you said you were adding large rectangular badges then Id say I LOVE the idea!..
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:19 PM
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now if you said you were adding large rectangular badges then Id say I LOVE the idea!..
You know I can't respond to that.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:22 PM
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You know I can't respond to that.
haha also, how did you go over 10k posts and not become vice-mayor or something?
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  #35  
Old 11-27-2012, 03:46 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

i'll know my career has really taken off the day i give you a call and order a customised kit from you. that or win the lottery. your kits are delicious.
j
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:47 PM
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Cheers Jorn. I agree about potential damage, but I've also done some more calculations, & I'm not satisfied with the strength either.

Andy I have been giving this some more thought. You should also expect that people use the 'tube lugs' to lift the drums - 2mm is for sure too thin.

With regards to aesthetics, I like simple. Think Apple. Or that famous Braun designer. Everything must have a function and be elegant. No wastage of material.

There is no 'tube' connecting the lugs on the Origin series(and a lot of other drums) - suggesting they are not required to make a drum function(unless internally threaded and also used as a lug). They should therefore be removed.

I also like Satin finish on hardware - it compliments wood really well.

The above is of course my personal preference and may not be what the general market is looking for.

thx

jorn
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:26 PM
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  #37  
Old 11-27-2012, 04:33 PM
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.................................

Last edited by The Old Hyde; 11-27-2012 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:48 PM
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  #38  
Old 11-27-2012, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

Shall we get back to the subject in hand, Lugs?

Andy, looking at the lugs on the tom in the picture, what is there to prevent the wood on the underside of the hoop becoming 'dented', or at least slightly compressed in relation to the rest of the hoop if the lug is really cranked down, is the actual wood dent resistant enough?

Would an increased surface are spread the load better?
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:37 PM
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i'll know my career has really taken off the day i give you a call and order a customised kit from you. that or win the lottery. your kits are delicious.
j
Thank you Nutha, that means a lot coming from a fine player such as yourself.

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Andy I have been giving this some more thought. You should also expect that people use the 'tube lugs' to lift the drums - 2mm is for sure too thin.

There is no 'tube' connecting the lugs on the Origin series(and a lot of other drums) - suggesting they are not required to make a drum function(unless internally threaded and also used as a lug). They should therefore be removed.
jorn
Good stuff Jorn :) The tube lug will be used on snares, & facilitate higher tensions whilst still keeping a low mass single contact point lug.

Agreed on the 2mm thickness being susceptible to inadvertent damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMNY View Post
Shall we get back to the subject in hand, Lugs?

Andy, looking at the lugs on the tom in the picture, what is there to prevent the wood on the underside of the hoop becoming 'dented', or at least slightly compressed in relation to the rest of the hoop if the lug is really cranked down, is the actual wood dent resistant enough?

Would an increased surface are spread the load better?
the load is already spread. There are two stainless steel pins secured into the external rering that mate with corresponding blind holes in the lug body. These not only locate the lug accurately, they also share any compressive load. We've cranked these drums up to marching tensions, with no adverse indentation or issues whatsoever. These lugs are not likely to appear on snares in the short term at least.








Guys, I have no idea what the remarks were aimed at that came & were partially deleted. Something about what I say giving out the wrong message. Not sure what I've said that's wrong in this thread, & even less interested in distracting futile minutiae.


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Old 11-28-2012, 12:38 AM
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Aeolian Aeolian is offline
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Default Re: Designing lugs, the journey + opinions on latest model sought

Okay, I'll toss in my 2 cents (pence). While there is a certain retro/art deco look to the Dagmars on the current design, I am also a form follows function type. If you want a different look for a new series, and not to have a family thing going with the hardware, I would emphasize the claw or wrap over aspect of the lugs and leave the bullet off. There is a body of thought (and marketing potential) to lower mass lugs. Which you are already availing yourselves of. By eliminating the cosmetic extension and focusing the esthetic on the gripping of the external re-ring and providing a nut function for the tension rod you can capture the Appleish minimalist appearance and maintain the traditional concept of lugs spaced periodically about the shell.
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