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  #41  
Old 10-18-2009, 12:44 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

I'm sure that Rounding yourself out is the difference. A guy whos rounded out & has all the basics down can adlib really good. I'm talking about independance & rudiments.
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  #42  
Old 10-23-2009, 06:50 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

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Originally Posted by brittc89 View Post
Sound and time, thats what I think makes the real difference. A really advanced player, in my opinion, gets a great, balanced sound from the drums and executes everything with great time.

So how does one improve better sound balance?

This is a weakness of mine from practicing on an e-kit.
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  #43  
Old 10-26-2009, 03:00 AM
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Default In your opinion what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drummers

that would make for an interesting thesis...obviously there are some things that no govt would divulge about a national disaster, but overall, planes got hijacked by terrorist, they were then flown into buildings...what the fallout is, where the blame should fall, maybe we will never know, but as far as it being planned by our govt..no way
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  #44  
Old 10-27-2009, 12:48 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

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Your monetary worth to the people who pay you.
There are loads of drummer who are crap and get paid heaps and get the gigs and there are the Virgil Donati's who keep themselves locked in their garage for 16 hours a day and perform awesome drum solos and such and know one knows.

What about the many drummers that ACDC has gone through, all they played were money beats through the whole flaming song, how much did they get paid, loads! (crap example but hey!)

A drumming friend of mine told me today, while watching an 80s rock music video (don't ask me how that happened, my friend is the kind that listens to Scandinavian Death-metal) he saw the drum set with like a dozen toms and like four kick drums! It seems just to rub it in the face of my friend all the guy plays is an f-ing money beat! I know it's a stupid example but I just hate hearing the money beat every-where, does my head in...

The money beat is what I learned from my first ever drum lesson, just shows how much those guys have advanced, they can play solidly...so what, I can play the money beat solidly aswell.

Really what makes and advanced drummer depends on many things, some things more than others...I just know how to compare things in a relative universe...from everyone's perspective everything is relative...collectively our opinions are relative, but we know what to compare to...I know a crap drummer from a good one if I know that they play to the best of their current ability. Man...this thinking does my head in...but I know Joey Jordison isn't level 10, maybe 8 or 9, it's just such a tough decision choosing who should be level 10, and I know that Joey Jordison knows that other drummers know that he isn't a level 10 either.
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  #45  
Old 10-27-2009, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

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Originally Posted by BassDriver View Post
I just hate hearing the money beat every-where, does my head in...

The money beat is what I learned from my first ever drum lesson, just shows how much those guys have advanced, they can play solidly...so what, I can play the money beat solidly aswell.

.
The reason the type of beat you refer to as "the money beat" is so widely used is that it fits most popular music genres perfectly. Being able to apply a beat that exactly meets the requirements of the song is one indicator of a great player in my humble opinion. There's nothing wrong with simple. You state that playing these "first lesson" beats is easy. In my experience, these beats are easy to execute technically but very few players can convey passion & play them with skillful use of dynamics. There's nothing easy about making something technically simple sound superb. As you're the kind of player who scores players on a scale of 1-10, I doubt we'll ever agree on what makes a good player.
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  #46  
Old 10-27-2009, 02:20 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

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Originally Posted by BassDriver View Post
A drumming friend of mine told me today, while watching an 80s rock music video (don't ask me how that happened, my friend is the kind that listens to Scandinavian Death-metal) he saw the drum set with like a dozen toms and like four kick drums! It seems just to rub it in the face of my friend all the guy plays is an f-ing money beat! I know it's a stupid example but I just hate hearing the money beat every-where, does my head in...

The money beat is what I learned from my first ever drum lesson, just shows how much those guys have advanced, they can play solidly...so what, I can play the money beat solidly as well.
I know where you're coming from, Bass, because I thought this way many years ago. I used to see the use of simple backbeats as a lack of imagination and flair.

Now I realise that it was just a misunderstanding.

Drummers often listen to drummers. However, when the money beat is played it's not being played for other drummers to enjoy. It's part of a greater whole and, apart from providing energy, keeping things solid and leaving space, the idea of the money beat is to deflect attention to the singer or whatever is supposed to be featured at the time.

You're not meant to dig it or be impressed by it, as long as people enjoy the music as a whole. Many drummers prefer to give pleasure to a million laypersons than a handful of peers.

So it may well do your head in if you're listening to a relentlessly backbeating drummer. It's like going to an art gallery, ignoring the foreground and just looking at the underwashes. Not so cerebral. But without the underwash the picture as a whole might not work. Bear in mind, you know you have a killer drummer when s/he makes a simple backbeat sound special.

Personally, I like rhythmic variation and if I can find an alternative to a straight money beat I will use it. If the song needs a money beat I'll look for some kind of variation/s to hopefully add some character to the song.
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  #47  
Old 10-31-2009, 01:59 AM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

Well what makes a good drummer is also their creativity.

Listen to some prog rock or prog metal and everything sounds complex in moderation and everything still flows and still sounds good.

I'm not denying that my opinion might seem to other people as biased, I refuse to listen to mainstream music.

...to me playing a money beat is like a guitar player playing a one-chord blues.
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  #48  
Old 10-31-2009, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

On a personal level I think an intermediate drummer knows the beats and knows the fills but doesn't have it all together. They might not have a large repertoire and not completely comfortable just sitting in with anyone and able to handle their own. Also they might not be able to get into the grove and make their own beat their own.

While an advance drummer just sit in and gels with the music and the musicians. They have an arsenal at their fingertips and can decide to give more and take some away and knows how to read the other musicians to help amplify what they are playing and help express their music.
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  #49  
Old 11-01-2009, 02:55 AM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

About 10,000 hours of practice. Someone gave their opinion that to be really good at their profession or vocation, you need to put in 10,000 hours. I guess that would be true most of the time for an advanced drummer.

GJS
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  #50  
Old 11-01-2009, 03:44 AM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

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Originally Posted by Skulmoski View Post
About 10,000 hours of practice. Someone gave their opinion that to be really good at their profession or vocation, you need to put in 10,000 hours. I guess that would be true most of the time for an advanced drummer.

GJS
That number was hypothesised as being the amount of time required to become a virtuoso on an instrument. That amount of time should take you far beyond the level on advanced. If a player knows how to practice properly, a pro standard should be reached in far less time.
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  #51  
Old 11-01-2009, 07:39 AM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

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That number was hypothesised as being the amount of time required to become a virtuoso on an instrument. That amount of time should take you far beyond the level on advanced. If a player knows how to practice properly, a pro standard should be reached in far less time.
I understood the question to be about the difference between an intermediate and an advanced drummer. I agree that you can become a pro with less experience; my point is regarding the amount of time one needs to spend in becoming advanced. 10,000 hours to get really good (advanced) at something. This number was used in a CIO article about Steve Jobs and his "advanced" presentation skills that he has honed over the decades (in excess of 10,000 hours).

On the other hand, street people who busk to make a bit of money might be considered "pro" by some definitions because they make most of their income from playing music. They might not be that good at it (e.g. a beginner or even intermediate), but they earn their livelihood through playing. (Many of us have heard the guy with a guitar and harmonica in front of a liquor store destroying some cheesy tune.)

That said, I wish I had the time to devote to becoming and staying a virtuoso! Take care JonesCrusher and have a great weekend!

GJS
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  #52  
Old 11-01-2009, 03:26 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

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Originally Posted by BassDriver View Post
Well what makes a good drummer is also their creativity.

Listen to some prog rock or prog metal and everything sounds complex in moderation and everything still flows and still sounds good.

I'm not denying that my opinion might seem to other people as biased, I refuse to listen to mainstream music.

...to me playing a money beat is like a guitar player playing a one-chord blues.
you cant have the drums in the spotlight all time, what DO you expect these drummers to play on quiet verses and so?

and playing that beat and sounding good is super hard
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  #53  
Old 11-04-2009, 12:33 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
It just depends what you're advanced with. As a rough rule, if it grooves from A to Z then it's advanced :)

My understanding is that untuned percussion doesn't have a formal grading system from 1 to 9 like tuned percussion, piano, flute etc, where intermediate and advanced levels are well-defined. Apparently those grading sessions are not all beer and skittles. A friend teaches piano and flute and his students get really nervous at the gradings and he has to work hard to help them settle during their preparation. If they fail the parents are likely to get cross - and he ends up wearing some of the implied blame too.

Trouble is, it depends on the markers. Some are tougher than others. Some will take nervousness into account and some don't, presumably because they believe that performances require the ability to play through nervousness.

Give me the informal path any day. I drummed super-sloppy as a teen but, by God, it was fun :)
Here in the UK there is a grading system for the drumset. Grades 1 - 8. I think the grades are a good devise which create well rounded and musically competent drummers, who can play comfortably in a wide variety of situations. I don't know if that equals advanced or not. That is a difficult question.
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  #54  
Old 11-04-2009, 08:05 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

the diff IMO -

editing ;)
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Last edited by cnw60; 11-04-2009 at 09:26 PM.
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  #55  
Old 11-05-2009, 11:47 AM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

Technique, feel, musicality, time, creativity, experience, study, dedication, versatility, dynamics, humility, etc etc etc
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  #56  
Old 11-05-2009, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

Very good question.

I hesitate to use the words intermediate/advanced anyway - I think the words 'at an earlier/further stage in your overall musical development' are more fitting. Anyway, that aside:

In my opinion to be a technically advanced drummer you would have to have superior technique and be able to execute various technical exercises with a high degree of precision.

However, I think to be an advanced drummer with regard to musicality you need to be able to play what the music needs in any given situation. I.e. listen to the other musicians/music and play what compliments it the best, whatever style you're playing in. You don't necessarily need to be a technically advanced drummer to be an advanced drummer in this regard.

I guess there is no right or wrong answer. It depends on your perspective and where you're at any given time. I think you can be technically advanced whilst at the same time being only intermediate in terms of musicality. One thing is for sure, there is no substitute for experience. You can learn all the exercises you want but there are certain things you can only learn by playing music and getting out there.

Last edited by Spence; 11-05-2009 at 12:37 PM.
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  #57  
Old 11-05-2009, 01:02 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

Say what you do and do what you say, as simple as that.
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  #58  
Old 11-05-2009, 01:05 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

Say what you do and do what you say. Be yourself! and don't compare it with the drummer next to you.
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  #59  
Old 11-07-2009, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

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Say what you do and do what you say. Be yourself! and don't compare it with the drummer next to you.
You can say that again.
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  #60  
Old 11-07-2009, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

advanced drummers pull things off consistently
intermediate drummers pull things off inconsistently

I'm an intermediate drummer imo. But I think it's fun that I have a higher mountain to climb drum-wise than someone who has been playing for 20 years

I don't think being a pro drummer is any gauge of how good a drummer is. Look at Meg White!
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  #61  
Old 11-09-2009, 03:15 AM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

intermediate to me is learning 'compound concepts" - that meaning, concepts that combine basic fundamentals with new ideas to take your playing further. they're not "harder" but require more building blocks to execute or understand.

advanced to me is being able to freely apply these compound concepts in the musical settings you're involved in. also creating new elements to add on to the skills you've already built up. - eg what elvin or tony did with jazz playing. or garibaldi with stickings as grooves with accents ect.

i think it really just needs to happen in one style. if the expectation for you to be advanced is to go far along in every style, then Vinnie C is advanced and most other drummers aren't.
- i'm not saying play one style, i only mean in others consideration of "advanced". if someone's playing is considered advanced in a style, he/she is more than not considered an advanced player overall.
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  #62  
Old 11-14-2009, 05:35 AM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
It's never occurred to me to think of it that way. I just know what I like. Drummee, what brought that to mind?

Advanced drumming: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujcYw2QTPzM

Advanced drumming: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngxaUjIYX1Y

Advanced drumming: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76eoyyem2K8

Advanced drumming: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra8VTlXVqUQ

Advanced drumming: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BpmLGGpK7k

It just depends what you're advanced with. As a rough rule, if it grooves from A to Z then it's advanced :)

My understanding is that untuned percussion doesn't have a formal grading system from 1 to 9 like tuned percussion, piano, flute etc, where intermediate and advanced levels are well-defined. Apparently those grading sessions are not all beer and skittles. A friend teaches piano and flute and his students get really nervous at the gradings and he has to work hard to help them settle during their preparation. If they fail the parents are likely to get cross - and he ends up wearing some of the implied blame too.

Trouble is, it depends on the markers. Some are tougher than others. Some will take nervousness into account and some don't, presumably because they believe that performances require the ability to play through nervousness.

Give me the informal path any day. I drummed super-sloppy as a teen but, by God, it was fun :)
Loved the Beatles Clip.Ringo was Rockin Hard,especially during I Saw Her Standing There.He gets a lot of undeserved crap about his playng abilities.I'm keepin this clip as proof to the contrary.Simply Great!
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  #63  
Old 11-19-2009, 12:18 AM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

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Originally Posted by BassDriver View Post
Well what makes a good drummer is also their creativity.

Listen to some prog rock or prog metal and everything sounds complex in moderation and everything still flows and still sounds good.

I'm not denying that my opinion might seem to other people as biased, I refuse to listen to mainstream music.

...to me playing a money beat is like a guitar player playing a one-chord blues.
One chord blues opens up the band to explore harmonically to places where the conventional 12 bar can cause stagnation. Repeating is what causes trance like states, and that is where music can be lifted to great heights. Money beats are hard, as there are so many different currencies in this world.
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  #64  
Old 11-19-2009, 03:06 AM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

I have been thinking about this a bit more,and perhaps another difference is that advanced drummers are more likely to be innovative and creative. For example, they come up with new rhythms: John Bonham's "8 Sticks" or "Fool in the Rain" come to mind (did he listen to Bernard Purdy?).

GJS
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  #65  
Old 11-19-2009, 05:35 AM
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Default Re: In your opinion, what makes the difference between intermediate and advanced drum

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Originally Posted by Pontiadict View Post
Loved the Beatles Clip.Ringo was Rockin Hard,especially during I Saw Her Standing There.He gets a lot of undeserved crap about his playng abilities.I'm keepin this clip as proof to the contrary.Simply Great!
Yeah, ususally from people who know nothing about music. It's called dumb predjudice and it spreads like a virus. I think people just like something to make fun of, and Ringo unfortunately has been a target for a long time. It makes people feel good to put down others even if they have no clue what they are saying. Now, if drummers say that about Ringo... then they are either really young, or they're just plain ignorant. The fact is, Ringo Starr is one of the most influential drummers of all time. He had a great influence on a wide range of drummers such as Phil Collins, Mike Portnoy (Dream Theater), Dave Grohl, etc. Most rock bands just want a drummer who can play in the style of Ringo (simple but highly effective).
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