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  #41  
Old 09-26-2016, 01:39 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

2 things spring to mind. Business and technology.

Technology allows engineers to map drum track and correct mistakes and my favourite replace sounds without any real ability. There vids on YT with Alan Parsons getting a drums sound and Ken Scott. Here's the Supertramp vid that makes you think that engineering and production was an art form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQbJM20U7NM

When is the last time you heard a grace note on a vocal track or something that wasn't quite right but the song was that good. I Saw Her Again (Mamas and the Papas) has the most glaring balls up on a recording I can think of but it works.

The Simon Cowells of this worlds have monopolized the industry so they literally put a drum machine to 5 kids and make millions....easy money.

I'll agree there is some incredibly tasteful playing out there, just harder to find these days. Wish I'd have been old enough to be around when Gadd, Jeff, JR, Purdie, Hal Blaine, Jim Gordon etc were the go to guys.
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  #42  
Old 09-26-2016, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by Flamateur Hour View Post
Jeeze you guys are sure good at making a blanket statement on an entire era of music.
I'm mainly talking about Top 40 music.
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  #43  
Old 09-26-2016, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

You see this in some jazz players now as well. There doesn't seem to be as much reverence for history, and for those that preceded them. Instead, they jump right to free jazz, or a more complicated form of jazz, without understanding where it comes from...

I think what you're describing might be part of the same phenomenon, where newer players aren't fully understanding (or caring about) the context and history behind their music.
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  #44  
Old 09-26-2016, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

I agree that the average of what we are hearing as highly advertised music is less organic in time than the highly advertised music from pre 1980.

I would notice the co-variation with $ % making it to the musicians...with more investment to the artist happening in the remote past...both in terms of actual residual as well as getting a 'grace period' to establish reputation and sales.

This is not unique to the 'music industry'. What we call fast food today is far worse than what used to be called fast food.

I think the trend to lower quality across industry is best summed up in one term....profits....and can backfire dramatically with a reduction in them.
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  #45  
Old 09-26-2016, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by mrfingers View Post
I blame the music composition. Nothing will make a bad/boring/eclectic/pop song good. Not all bands can pull off good/memorable songs, especially if the composing is based solely on what's already in vogue.
I'm not sure if I agree with that statement.

An example. I had called a trombone player to play a cocktail jazz gig (background music, but $$$$!) with me and some other players.

Some of the other players wanted to add some Beatles songs. I personally don't care for the Beatles, and the trombone player is a genius when it comes to big band jazz, but doesn't know any Beatles songs.

We played a jazz arrangement of the song "Come Together", and afterwards the trombonist, who is has his doctorate in music and really knows his stuff, was put off by the song. He went off on a rant about how this 2 chord song with the harmonic maturity of a nursery rhyme, was just a rhythmic groove, and shouldn't be considered a song.

Musically speaking, he has a point, the song is two chords and (on paper) really doesn't have much going on in terms of harmony/composition. But, as much as I don't like the Beatles, they do a pretty good job of that song. I'm not saying that they are good musicians, or great composers, but they were able to take a song without any substance to it, and give it some groove... in turn it became a very popular and catchy song.

I think it's the same with much of today's music, it's mostly about a rhythm or beat, with some simple chords (often not more than 2 or 3) thrown on the top. These songs don't offer much in terms of musicality, but they are catchy and go with the dances of the day... the same way that pop music from the 60s, 40s, 1860s, et cetera all went with dances of the day.
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  #46  
Old 09-26-2016, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
There was a cute BBC program a while back where a bunch of bands went into the studio to re-record Sgt. Pepper on the original 4 track console.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-tMEFLgxso

It was refreshing to watch and see modern bands confronted with having to play together.
I saw that... Excellent!!

Sterile cookie-cutter music is today's unheard battle cry!

Bands of the 50s, 60s, & 70s (to some extent) relied on creating a melody and built the rest of the music around it. Sometimes the music was not played all that great, but it had feel, emotion, and most of all it rocked and rolled.

There's no "people" involved with today's music. Just mass-produced consumer sounds courtesy of Wal-mart.
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  #47  
Old 09-26-2016, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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I saw that... Excellent!!
There's a gem in there with the Kaiser Chiefs... They're a band that I'm relatively fond of.... They get to a point where they ask the cameras to stop recording and put in 2 hours of rehearsal so that they can get their collective shit together. Man I know that feeling.


https://youtu.be/b-tMEFLgxso?t=437
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  #48  
Old 09-26-2016, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

I think it goes deeper than this.

It comes down to bands can't afford risk.

The OP mentioned Journey. Their first 3 albums were essentially flops. Their 4th album showed some hope, but they didn't make a profit until their 5th album. Along the way they had a lot of time to go through phases, and experiment with different music, different line ups and such until they found what worked. All along they continued to get record company support.

In the early 90's, many record company leaders were forced out of their jobs as the pressure was put on by stock holders to make record companies more profitable. Music people were replaced with business leaders.

As such, labels stopped signing bands like Journey who needed 4 or 5 albums to figure things out. Labels only signed bands they thought could sell right away. And if you didn't sell right away, you were off the label. So bands were forced to take less risks. More emphasis was put on being perfect. Not just to complete with machines, not just because the technology was available, but because there was no margin for error. Imperfections may make an album cool, but no one can afford cool, it has be profitable or else.

And as record sales declined with the rise of the internet, then the emphasis started going on making the live shows perfect. Having a good night vs a bad night can no longer be risked because each show may be the last opportunity to make an impression. So bands start using clicks live and making shows as near perfect as they can.

And this method of production made it's way down to even the small bands. Even garage bands who have no interest in selling tons of records and are willing to take big risks musically find themselves not wanting to take risks sonically. The sound of perfection is so ingrained in our ears that musicians/engineers/producers can't escape the notion they have to put out something that meets modern criteria, even if they consciously try not to.
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Old 09-26-2016, 09:53 PM
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  #49  
Old 09-26-2016, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcspears View Post
I'm not sure if I agree with that statement.

An example. I had called a trombone player to play a cocktail jazz gig (background music, but $$$$!) with me and some other players.

Some of the other players wanted to add some Beatles songs. I personally don't care for the Beatles, and the trombone player is a genius when it comes to big band jazz, but doesn't know any Beatles songs.

We played a jazz arrangement of the song "Come Together", and afterwards the trombonist, who is has his doctorate in music and really knows his stuff, was put off by the song. He went off on a rant about how this 2 chord song with the harmonic maturity of a nursery rhyme, was just a rhythmic groove, and shouldn't be considered a song.

Musically speaking, he has a point, the song is two chords and (on paper) really doesn't have much going on in terms of harmony/composition. But, as much as I don't like the Beatles, they do a pretty good job of that song. I'm not saying that they are good musicians, or great composers, but they were able to take a song without any substance to it, and give it some groove... in turn it became a very popular and catchy song.

I think it's the same with much of today's music, it's mostly about a rhythm or beat, with some simple chords (often not more than 2 or 3) thrown on the top. These songs don't offer much in terms of musicality, but they are catchy and go with the dances of the day... the same way that pop music from the 60s, 40s, 1860s, et cetera all went with dances of the day.
He needs to pull his head out of his a**e. Has a doctorate in music. And? He must never have heard the term "Its not what you play its how you play it" It only has two chords? Well, surely for a "proper" musician it cant be any good then. This is exactly what we are talking about on this thread, form over function re musicians.
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  #50  
Old 09-26-2016, 10:10 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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He needs to pull his head out of his a**e. Has a doctorate in music. And? He must never have heard the term "Its not what you play its how you play it" It only has two chords? Well, surely for a "proper" musician it cant be any good then. This is exactly what we are talking about on this thread, form over function re musicians.
If I had horns or winds and a cocktail jazz gig, I'd do "When I'm 64" and not "Come Together". I could cocktail-jazz the shit out of that song.
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  #51  
Old 09-27-2016, 02:20 AM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
I think it goes deeper than this.

It comes down to bands can't afford risk.

The OP mentioned Journey. Their first 3 albums were essentially flops. Their 4th album showed some hope, but they didn't make a profit until their 5th album. Along the way they had a lot of time to go through phases, and experiment with different music, different line ups and such until they found what worked. All along they continued to get record company support.

In the early 90's, many record company leaders were forced out of their jobs as the pressure was put on by stock holders to make record companies more profitable. Music people were replaced with business leaders.

As such, labels stopped signing bands like Journey who needed 4 or 5 albums to figure things out. Labels only signed bands they thought could sell right away. And if you didn't sell right away, you were off the label. So bands were forced to take less risks. More emphasis was put on being perfect. Not just to complete with machines, not just because the technology was available, but because there was no margin for error. Imperfections may make an album cool, but no one can afford cool, it has be profitable or else.

And as record sales declined with the rise of the internet, then the emphasis started going on making the live shows perfect. Having a good night vs a bad night can no longer be risked because each show may be the last opportunity to make an impression. So bands start using clicks live and making shows as near perfect as they can.

And this method of production made it's way down to even the small bands. Even garage bands who have no interest in selling tons of records and are willing to take big risks musically find themselves not wanting to take risks sonically. The sound of perfection is so ingrained in our ears that musicians/engineers/producers can't escape the notion they have to put out something that meets modern criteria, even if they consciously try not to.
I like how well thought out this response is and totally agree. I think even between musicians there's a big pressure to be perfect. As this weird bar of the idea of perfection keeps getting raised, it's almost impossible to not get into making comparisons. I think for example, this stuff about sample replacing real drum hits on a recording is almost beyond my comprehension. It does not need to be a literal copy of something else, it just needs to be music that moves butts.
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  #52  
Old 09-27-2016, 04:31 AM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

Given all this discussion, would it not be an interesting new 'niche' in music, something different and unique, to make and market truly live recordings again...with. The band plays live in the studio and its recorded to good hi tech sound. Wouldn't that be 'new' and therefore interesting for consumption again, maybe like organic coffee or vegetables?

Nah, maybe your average listener doesn't give a rats arse.
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  #53  
Old 09-27-2016, 04:40 AM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
very well stated
......................
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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
I like how well thought out this response is and totally agree. I think even between musicians there's a big pressure to be perfect. As this weird bar of the idea of perfection keeps getting raised, it's almost impossible to not get into making comparisons. I think for example, this stuff about sample replacing real drum hits on a recording is almost beyond my comprehension. It does not need to be a literal copy of something else, it just needs to be music that moves butts.
Thank you.

For anyone who wants to understand where my post came from, read

Hit Men: Power Brokers and Fast Money Inside the Music Business
by Fredric Dannen

Bumping Into Geniuses: My Life Inside the Rock and Roll Business
by Danny Goldberg

The Soundtrack of My Life by Clive Davis

None of these books have anything to do with drumming, or technology or music becoming rigid, but they do give insight to the evolution of how the business behind pop/rock went from anything goes in the 60's to very structured in the 90's
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  #54  
Old 09-27-2016, 07:20 AM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

Drumming demands changed for me in the 80s, although the first hint of today's "squaring off" came with disco's relatively unvarying beats and the replacement of live musicians with recordings.

As the 80s progressed and machines became more influential, I was forced to play straighter, more squared off, and I had to hit harder, using less dynamics. I had to play tighter, no messin', no risks - just get it it right the same way every time.

None of that suited me so, after a couple of years, I quit playing. "Too rigid" depends on context. The 80s was enjoyably rigid for most fans but it was too rigid for my tastes, as has much of the music since :)

I think comparing Shocking Blue's original bluesy version of Venus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mREi_Bb85Sk

with Bananarama's cover https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkcU2_Vs7Xw

says a fair bit about the changes in pop music that started in the late 70s / early 80s and gave rise to today's pop scenes.
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  #55  
Old 09-27-2016, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Thank you.

For anyone who wants to understand where my post came from, read

Hit Men: Power Brokers and Fast Money Inside the Music Business
by Fredric Dannen

Bumping Into Geniuses: My Life Inside the Rock and Roll Business
by Danny Goldberg

The Soundtrack of My Life by Clive Davis

None of these books have anything to do with drumming, or technology or music becoming rigid, but they do give insight to the evolution of how the business behind pop/rock went from anything goes in the 60's to very structured in the 90's
On a very basic level, you could just examine mass-consumption and mass produced goods and how these products are marketed by corporations. The same marketing style and targeting developed and moved on in the music industry. Highly standardized, cookie-cutter, easily replicated "safe" products.

FZ also had some interesting comments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZazEM8cgt0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgVUei2853A
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  #56  
Old 09-27-2016, 08:32 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
I think it goes deeper than this.

It comes down to bands can't afford risk.

The OP mentioned Journey. Their first 3 albums were essentially flops. Their 4th album showed some hope, but they didn't make a profit until their 5th album. Along the way they had a lot of time to go through phases, and experiment with different music, different line ups and such until they found what worked. All along they continued to get record company support.

In the early 90's, many record company leaders were forced out of their jobs as the pressure was put on by stock holders to make record companies more profitable. Music people were replaced with business leaders.

As such, labels stopped signing bands like Journey who needed 4 or 5 albums to figure things out. Labels only signed bands they thought could sell right away. And if you didn't sell right away, you were off the label. So bands were forced to take less risks. More emphasis was put on being perfect. Not just to complete with machines, not just because the technology was available, but because there was no margin for error. Imperfections may make an album cool, but no one can afford cool, it has be profitable or else.

And as record sales declined with the rise of the internet, then the emphasis started going on making the live shows perfect. Having a good night vs a bad night can no longer be risked because each show may be the last opportunity to make an impression. So bands start using clicks live and making shows as near perfect as they can.

And this method of production made it's way down to even the small bands. Even garage bands who have no interest in selling tons of records and are willing to take big risks musically find themselves not wanting to take risks sonically. The sound of perfection is so ingrained in our ears that musicians/engineers/producers can't escape the notion they have to put out something that meets modern criteria, even if they consciously try not to.
All of this.

I'd add that the big driver of all this is that music and concerts are no longer the only show in town. Competing for music's entertainment dollar today are Netflix, video games and social media.

In the 70s, buying a new album at the record store, talking about it with your friends and obsessing over the music was what everyone I knew did. What else were we gonna do with our time? You had movie theaters and concerts for entertainment and to connect with people. So investing in a band and taking a chance they'd make it was still a reasonable wager, because if they hit it big, there was a ton of money to be made for band and label alike. Today? If it's not a sure hit written by Max Martin with an act that fits the formula, why take the chance?
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  #57  
Old 09-27-2016, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

That's all well and good but we are talking mainly about sterile playing in a live gig situation. There is no reason why musicians cant push the boundaries or take risks live. Excitement should be what a live gig is about, the chance to say "I was there at that great gig, and it was a unique experience". Rather than a cookie cutter act that even has the same "Add lib's" every night.
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  #58  
Old 09-27-2016, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Given all this discussion, would it not be an interesting new 'niche' in music, something different and unique, to make and market truly live recordings again...with. The band plays live in the studio and its recorded to good hi tech sound. Wouldn't that be 'new' and therefore interesting for consumption again, maybe like organic coffee or vegetables?

Nah, maybe your average listener doesn't give a rats arse.
I think it could become a thing, in the same way vinyl has made a comeback due to listeners looking for that organic open sound. You could call it 'music made by hand' or something and each song/album cover/thumbnail could have a little "by hand" logo on or by it saying it was made in a non digital environment. There could be "by hand" evenings and festivals. It only needs to be marketed tactfully and not be seen as a fad and it could become appreciated. As always there could be a lot of bandwagon jumping, plus sneering from the old generation but if it means the younger generation appreciating that loose live sound and being less by the book, pristine and formulaic, then it could only be a positive thing.
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  #59  
Old 09-28-2016, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

I don't think any generation would sneer at a genuine attempt to be Valid. From what i'm reading in this thread is that broadly speaking the answer to the title is YES! If music didn't become safe or formularised it may have a chance of Evolving but as soon as the " business " people or chasing the mighty dollar is involved it seems to Devolve.
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  #60  
Old 09-28-2016, 08:23 AM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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That's all well and good but we are talking mainly about sterile playing in a live gig situation. There is no reason why musicians cant push the boundaries or take risks live. Excitement should be what a live gig is about, the chance to say "I was there at that great gig, and it was a unique experience". Rather than a cookie cutter act that even has the same "Add lib's" every night.
You're quite right, I've seen concerts where the music was cut/paste from the album, not even a drum fill was different. The only differences came from the ending where fade out were impossible ahaha ;-)
On the other hand, I've Seen AC/DC au Stade de France, great show, ad libs, power and so good ambiance. AC/DC isn't a "drum fill" music for sure, but C. Slade and the others seemed to have fun and this, you can really feel.
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  #61  
Old 09-29-2016, 05:56 AM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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That's all well and good but we are talking mainly about sterile playing in a live gig situation. There is no reason why musicians cant push the boundaries or take risks live. Excitement should be what a live gig is about, the chance to say "I was there at that great gig, and it was a unique experience". Rather than a cookie cutter act that even has the same "Add lib's" every night.
Because for the most part, popular bands aren't encouraged to do this.

There is a record company involved, or management trying to get a record company involved, then it's keep it tried and true to what's been planned. Bands are playing entire shows to click tracks. Every note is planned and variances aren't allowed.

And with technology and every show having the potential to ending up on youtube, risk becomes dangerous, because everyone is watching, waiting to put it on the internet for life.

And to extent, the skills to do so are never fully developed due the circumstances posted.
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  #62  
Old 09-29-2016, 07:58 AM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

Youtube huh? Well type in songs from 1969 and watch and listen to some of the tracks that came from that one year alone. Experimentation was the thing not playing it safe. And all those folks didn't even know about the internet.. Start with Bad Moon Rising.CCR.
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Old 09-29-2016, 08:06 AM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

I'm hoping this isn't just rose tinted glasses and nostalgia, but not so long ago, pop and rock musicians were enthusiasts for the music, first and foremost. They were scholars, looking to share their learning with others. The Stones started out as a blues cover band, looking to turn people on to the blues. Led Zep were steeped in (or stole) large chunks of their repertoire from the blues greats.

Fast forward to 2016 and one of the judges on X Australian Pop Star Idols Have Talent Can Dance didn't know who Neil Finn is. Seriously???? (If you live outside the Antipodes and you don't know who Neil Finn is, you're missing out but you may not be expected to know.)

When musicians don't understand, deeply understand, the roots of their discipline, they have no foundations to build on, and it shows.
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Old 09-29-2016, 09:07 AM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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I'm hoping this isn't just rose tinted glasses and nostalgia, but not so long ago, pop and rock musicians were enthusiasts for the music, first and foremost. They were scholars, looking to share their learning with others. The Stones started out as a blues cover band, looking to turn people on to the blues. Led Zep were steeped in (or stole) large chunks of their repertoire from the blues greats.

Fast forward to 2016 and one of the judges on X Australian Pop Star Idols Have Talent Can Dance didn't know who Neil Finn is. Seriously???? (If you live outside the Antipodes and you don't know who Neil Finn is, you're missing out but you may not be expected to know.)

When musicians don't understand, deeply understand, the roots of their discipline, they have no foundations to build on, and it shows.
I hear ya James, Maybe if they just did a TV, show with Singing Dancing Chefs with Beards and Tattoo's and Bottle Tops in their Ears then we could get on with some real entertainment like watching Border Patrol. Oh Yeah!
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Old 09-29-2016, 10:32 AM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Because for the most part, popular bands aren't encouraged to do this.

There is a record company involved, or management trying to get a record company involved, then it's keep it tried and true to what's been planned. Bands are playing entire shows to click tracks. Every note is planned and variances aren't allowed.

And with technology and every show having the potential to ending up on youtube, risk becomes dangerous, because everyone is watching, waiting to put it on the internet for life.

And to extent, the skills to do so are never fully developed due the circumstances posted.
Couldn't agree more, my point exactly, apart from the youtube bit. Who wouldn't want a magical gig they played out there for all to drool over?
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  #66  
Old 09-30-2016, 10:16 PM
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Mongrel Mongrel is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

Welcome my son...
Welcome to the machine...

What did you dream?
It's alright WE TOLD YOU WHAT TO DREAM...

Come in HERE dear boy-have a cigar...You're gonna go far...

and all that...
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Old 10-01-2016, 06:47 AM
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  #67  
Old 10-01-2016, 10:20 PM
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Flamateur Hour Flamateur Hour is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

I feel like there are two distinctly different modern music industries. There's the Top 40 industry and then everything else. To me, Top 40 is similar to Hollywood. Not all that much substance (always exceptions) but generally they're just looking for the next "feel good hit of the summer".

But outside of that, I think that you'll find that the general music industry is filled with as much groove, passion for the instrument, etc..., that you would have experienced in the past. D'Angelo & The Vanguard, Kendrick Lamar, Anderson Paak & The Free Nationals, Unknown Mortal Orchestra, Mac Demarco, Connan Mockasin, Queens of the Stone Age, BadBadNotGood and infinitely man more that are constantly pushing the bar for pop-styled music.

Also I think that the jazz that has been put out in the last 4-5 years is some of the hippest stuff I've been able to find in a long time. Keystone Project, Chris Dave & The Drumheads, Robert Glasper, Thundercat, Kamasi Washington, BadBadNotGood, etc... I mean holy cow.

Also freaking Snarky Puppy.

It's a damn fine time to be a musician if you ask me.
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Old 10-01-2016, 10:52 PM
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

Short answer? No. There's a lot of really great music being made right now. Question? Have you become too rigid? As a lifelong metal/hard rock guy I find most heavier music these days to be pretty stale, generic, formulaic, overly stylized, or just plain vapid. That's saying most, but definitely not all. However I find pop, alt, indie, and even new country to be very exciting and well worth the sifting process to find good bands. I'm going to see Mike Snow this coming Friday. Very cool stuff.
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  #69  
Old 10-01-2016, 11:30 PM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

I think a big problem is the term "feel" which sort of preemptively prevents any intellectual development of rhythm beyond a few degenerate European definitions of meter. There are many modern cultures that engage in tempo modulation and irregular subdivisions.
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Old 10-03-2016, 10:18 AM
Woolwich Woolwich is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

This may not add anything to the conversation but here I go anyway.
Within the last couple of years I've seen Ian Anderson and his band playing the Thick As A Brick 2 and Homo Erraticus albums in their entirety as well as a greatest hits set all perfectly synced with huge back projection visuals. Most recently I saw the band performing Jethro Tull The Rock Opera, but for this show there were duets and solos by "virtual performers" who only appeared on screen throughout the whole evening and weren't there in person. The show could only have been played to a click and with a huge potential for calamity, but at no point did I see any signs of the musicians being held back or limited by the technology, and not only did the visuals work 100% correctly but the virtual vocals always came in, ended, and interplayed with the live musicians perfectly.
So this is a click situation as opposed to a grid situation but it was as good an example as anyone could witness to show that playing to a click can sound as organic as playing without.
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Old 10-03-2016, 04:24 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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He needs to pull his head out of his a**e. Has a doctorate in music. And? He must never have heard the term "Its not what you play its how you play it" It only has two chords? Well, surely for a "proper" musician it cant be any good then. This is exactly what we are talking about on this thread, form over function re musicians.

I was making the opposite point, that the Beatles wrote a song that had a very rigid rhythmic structure, and the melody was comprised of two chords.

As a drummer, the song is boring, stiff, and unchanging. As a horn player, the trombonist was finding it hard to come up with anything interesting to play over the song. Not from a lack of ability, but the rhythm is so stiff, and he's only given two chords to play with.

I was making the point that the song had the same rigid feel that this thread is talking about. If you look at The Beatles, or Justin Beiber, or any two pop bands... the formula is almost always the same. (I know the Beatles had a few songs that branched out, but for the most part they followed a simple formula). All pop songs, probably since the dawn of time, have a limited harmonic vocabulary, and stick to a rigid rhythm that is usually associated with the way young people dance/party.

Eine Kleine Nachtmusik is the same thing; it's a pop tune. It uses a fairly simple, but catchy rhythmic device, and uses only a small harmonic landscape.

The goal of all pop music, since the Romans, has been to create simple, yet catchy, short melodies, over a repeated and danceable rhythm. The songs have been traditionally boring for musicians to play, and have always been looked down upon as being less-musical than the art music of the day. But we're judging pop music by art music standards. Of course, the Beatles and Beiber can't be compared to Gershwin, Miles Davis, or Scriabin... The feel of pop music will feel rigid, and the harmonies will feel limited, because it's pop music. It's not intended for people to analyze as art music.

For the exact same reasons, if you go to a pub and put some John Zorn on the juke box, you're going to get a lot of sour looks. The majority of people want pop music. That being said, in the Northeastern US anyways, we're seeing a huge surge in jazz clubs, and venues that support art music that is experimental.
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Old 10-03-2016, 06:31 PM
mikel mikel is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by tcspears View Post
I was making the opposite point, that the Beatles wrote a song that had a very rigid rhythmic structure, and the melody was comprised of two chords.

As a drummer, the song is boring, stiff, and unchanging. As a horn player, the trombonist was finding it hard to come up with anything interesting to play over the song. Not from a lack of ability, but the rhythm is so stiff, and he's only given two chords to play with.

I was making the point that the song had the same rigid feel that this thread is talking about. If you look at The Beatles, or Justin Beiber, or any two pop bands... the formula is almost always the same. (I know the Beatles had a few songs that branched out, but for the most part they followed a simple formula). All pop songs, probably since the dawn of time, have a limited harmonic vocabulary, and stick to a rigid rhythm that is usually associated with the way young people dance/party.

Eine Kleine Nachtmusik is the same thing; it's a pop tune. It uses a fairly simple, but catchy rhythmic device, and uses only a small harmonic landscape.

The goal of all pop music, since the Romans, has been to create simple, yet catchy, short melodies, over a repeated and danceable rhythm. The songs have been traditionally boring for musicians to play, and have always been looked down upon as being less-musical than the art music of the day. But we're judging pop music by art music standards. Of course, the Beatles and Beiber can't be compared to Gershwin, Miles Davis, or Scriabin... The feel of pop music will feel rigid, and the harmonies will feel limited, because it's pop music. It's not intended for people to analyze as art music.

For the exact same reasons, if you go to a pub and put some John Zorn on the juke box, you're going to get a lot of sour looks. The majority of people want pop music. That being said, in the Northeastern US anyways, we're seeing a huge surge in jazz clubs, and venues that support art music that is experimental.
I thought you were Jazzing it up, changing it hence the instruments? If the musicians can swing so can the music. You are comparing Justin Beiber to the Beatles?????
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Old 10-03-2016, 06:36 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by tcspears View Post
I was making the point that the song had the same rigid feel that this thread is talking about. If you look at The Beatles, or Justin Beiber, or any two pop bands... the formula is almost always the same. (I know the Beatles had a few songs that branched out, but for the most part they followed a simple formula).
This is pretty far removed from reality. I'd recommend watching the piece by Howard Goodall where he does a fair job of describing what the Beatles did (beginning around Rubber Soul), and how it was completely different than the pop of the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQS91wVdvYc
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Old 10-03-2016, 07:37 PM
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Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

There's a certain swing feel you get even with a straight beat like in the Police song, When the World is Running Down and Hall & Oates' You Make My Dreams Come True. Songs like that don't come out anymore. They just make cookie cutter songs now from what I can tell.
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  #75  
Old 10-03-2016, 08:49 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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I thought you were Jazzing it up, changing it hence the instruments? If the musicians can swing so can the music. You are comparing Justin Beiber to the Beatles?????
Yes, but the structure of the song is still just two chords. We can take liberties with the arrangement, but I was just talking about the composition.


Quote:
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You are comparing Justin Beiber to the Beatles?????
I just meant pop music. Both those artists are pop, and their goal isn't to create avant garde art music, it's to make music that people find entertaining.

I know they are different styles, and the instrumentation (or lack thereof) is different, but they are all pop music that use repeated rhythmic devices and simple harmonies to create catchy and pleasant music. I know the Beatles experimented a bit later on, but they always stayed in the pop realm... which there is nothing wrong with.

My point is that you can't compare pop music's rigid rhythmic devices with art music as they have different purposes.
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  #76  
Old 10-03-2016, 09:26 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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This is pretty far removed from reality. I'd recommend watching the piece by Howard Goodall where he does a fair job of describing what the Beatles did (beginning around Rubber Soul), and how it was completely different than the pop of the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQS91wVdvYc
I'm not sure what you think I'm removed from reality on... The Beatles definitely pushed the boundaries of pop music, and were hugely influential on pop music (and still are). I'm not taking anything away from them in that respect.

In terms of music as a whole though, they never really strayed from pop. Even their more experimental albums still used repeated rhythmic devices, and simple harmonic progressions. They never really went after the avant garde, or art music, as that wasn't their thing. They were all about pushing the boundaries of pop.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't be so quick to write off pop songs as being rigid; they are simple, catchy, and rhythmic tunes designed for mass-appeal, dancing, et cetera. Pop songs aren't meant to challenge our perceptions, or showcase the height of musical composition.
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Old 10-03-2016, 10:17 PM
mikel mikel is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by tcspears View Post
I'm not sure what you think I'm removed from reality on... The Beatles definitely pushed the boundaries of pop music, and were hugely influential on pop music (and still are). I'm not taking anything away from them in that respect.

In terms of music as a whole though, they never really strayed from pop. Even their more experimental albums still used repeated rhythmic devices, and simple harmonic progressions. They never really went after the avant garde, or art music, as that wasn't their thing. They were all about pushing the boundaries of pop.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't be so quick to write off pop songs as being rigid; they are simple, catchy, and rhythmic tunes designed for mass-appeal, dancing, et cetera. Pop songs aren't meant to challenge our perceptions, or showcase the height of musical composition.
The thread is concerned with heavily grid adjusted music lacking any rhythmic elasticity, and click obsessed live music being so stale and rigid. You seem more concerned with how many chords a piece of music has or if it is acceptable to "real" musicians. The genre of the music is not an issue here, its the push and pull of the musicians playing it and how they work off each other that the OP is discussing.
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Old 10-03-2016, 10:25 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by tcspears View Post
I'm not sure what you think I'm removed from reality on... The Beatles definitely pushed the boundaries of pop music, and were hugely influential on pop music (and still are). I'm not taking anything away from them in that respect.

In terms of music as a whole though, they never really strayed from pop.

I guess that my point was that....

They 'did' stray from pop. They were the inventors of what became "the new pop", and the deviation is by virtue of them being the first to do it. The Beatles saved us from being drowned by both the Avant-garde and bubble-gum-pop.

It's like saying that Newton didn't stray from the commonly held beliefs concerning gravitation.... He did! And now we have entirely new commonly held beliefs concerning gravitation because of it. If your argument is analogous to "gravity didn't change, our understanding did" , then I concede.

Take a peek at the Goodall piece and see if you still disagree.

Last edited by KamaK; 10-03-2016 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 10-03-2016, 11:51 PM
SmoothOperator SmoothOperator is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by mikel View Post
The thread is concerned with heavily grid adjusted music lacking any rhythmic elasticity, and click obsessed live music being so stale and rigid. You seem more concerned with how many chords a piece of music has or if it is acceptable to "real" musicians. The genre of the music is not an issue here, its the push and pull of the musicians playing it and how they work off each other that the OP is discussing.
The Beatles feel is pretty relevant given their studio innovations, with tape and what not. Furthermore the absence of content or construction of songs such that there is some "play" to them is also valid. Though, fewer chords often indicates that there is more emphasis on rhythmic statements. Anyway, pop music isn't Griddy at all, it's almost as if you've never heard of Hip Hop.
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Old 10-04-2016, 03:55 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
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Default Re: Has the feel become to rigid in modern music?

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Originally Posted by mikel View Post
The thread is concerned with heavily grid adjusted music lacking any rhythmic elasticity, and click obsessed live music being so stale and rigid. You seem more concerned with how many chords a piece of music has or if it is acceptable to "real" musicians. The genre of the music is not an issue here, its the push and pull of the musicians playing it and how they work off each other that the OP is discussing.
I think you are just misunderstanding me... I'm not concerned with how many chords a piece has, and I never once mentioned "real musicians". I think you need to go back and re-read.


The genre of music is absolutely important. The OP is asking about the feel in modern music being too rigid. Most of the examples and posts are concerning pop music. My point is that pop music is designed to have a strict rhythm, and always has. Using a repetitive rhythm and simple harmonies, creates songs that have mass appeal. So of course modern pop music is going to be rigid, that's the point.
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