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  #81  
Old 04-21-2016, 08:22 AM
running running is offline
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
If I'm honest, I didn't see too much gentle prompting for mere "consideration" contained within that first post. But nonetheless, my point wasn't that it isn't even worthy of thought.
What I said was :

Quote:
Had the same q myself, but then I started to consider the possibility that this fellow is differently abled. We tend to presume everyone comes from the same cognitive background, but brains can work very differently. Would explain a few things... I truly hope his love of music and passion for playing take him where he would like to go.
Which push-pull quoted, expounded upon, and offered their suggestion for what they would have personally done. I truly don't see anything more than suggestion in that. I'm very sorry if you or others in this thread felt like it was being offered as anything other than an alert for consideration.

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Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
More that a youtube clip presented on a drum forum is a pretty limited criteria to base a hypothesis of some guy's entire medical background on.
I can tell you from personal experience that far less than the content of a drum playing video has been used to render such a hypothesis. I would further bet large sums of money that showing this video to 99% of ASD specialists would receive a quick "yes" for further evaluation. Would they have 100% career-staking certainty? Absolutely not. But those aren't the stakes here. Suspicion is enough for me to raise consideration.

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But anyway, it's certainly more juicy and exciting than my diagnosis that the guy just had shitty timing and could do with listening to the advice he initially sought out rather than pick up his bat and ball and going home when he didn't hear the raucous accolades he was expecting to hear. Your's and Push's has been far more interesting.
ASD is interesting. It appears you have been fortunate enough not to encounter it your own life, but if you would like to explore it further I'm happy to provide you with recommended reading.
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  #82  
Old 04-21-2016, 10:14 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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I tried to tacitly mention it upthread to encourage people to think twice about piling on.
That's what I meant when I talked about context. I have no particular expertise when it comes to "syndromes" or "conditions" or whatever; it just seemed like common sense to me.
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  #83  
Old 04-21-2016, 10:22 AM
AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken is offline
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That's what I meant when I talked about context. I have no particular expertise when it comes to "syndromes" or "conditions" or whatever; it just seemed like common sense to me.
Does it really matter? Isn't the whole point about treating people equally that, if you act like an ass, someone tells you that you're being an ass?

In any case, my diagnosis is 'trolling'. It's anti-comedy. He's selling ads on his vids and drumming up business.
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  #84  
Old 04-21-2016, 10:26 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Two thoughts I had the other day. The scenario that the poster might be differently abled or autistic was raised as a potential explanation for his drumming and his subsequent actions on leaving the forum.

So first of all, if this is the case then surely his parents, carers, support group etc. have a responsibility to advise and protect him. He posted here and asked for advice, the onus is NOT on anyone here to examine the medical history of everyone that posts before making a comment. Certainly if we were to learn this is the case then our opinions would change based on new evidence, the caveat also being that in his original post that I never saw there was no bullying or insulting but reasoned replies and advice to his request.

Secondly, if the poster is still reading this and is NOT differently abled/autistic how bad will he now feel seeing himself being discussed in this light when in reality he just isn't that good. If that happened to me I'd be mortified. I'm not making light of it at all but it's along the lines of, but significantly worse, than one of those occasions when a woman is asked when her baby is due and replies that she isn't pregnant.
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  #85  
Old 04-21-2016, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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Does it really matter? Isn't the whole point about treating people equally that, if you act like an ass, someone tells you that you're being an ass?
I completely agree with you, but I also think that it does matter to an extent (which will vary). It's more about putting your foot on the ball and asking yourself the question.

I didn't see the original thread but it seems pretty clear that nobody was unkind anyway, which is entirely right and proper and in keeping with the ethos of this forum. Whoever you are, if you're going to post on here, you should accept the advice and wisdom of people who take the trouble to try to help and who are on your side, for heaven's sake!
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  #86  
Old 04-21-2016, 11:44 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Best thread since the one about the guy with the cape, strewth! Bloody ripper!

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Old 04-21-2016, 12:16 PM
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  #87  
Old 04-21-2016, 02:13 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

One thing the dude had more thumbs ups and followers than any video I've put up on YT. So I should probably keep my mouth shut and never ask for a critique.
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  #88  
Old 04-21-2016, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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So first of all, if this is the case then surely his parents, carers, support group etc. have a responsibility to advise and protect him. He posted here and asked for advice, the onus is NOT on anyone here to examine the medical history of everyone that posts before making a comment. Certainly if we were to learn this is the case then our opinions would change based on new evidence, the caveat also being that in his original post that I never saw there was no bullying or insulting but reasoned replies and advice to his request.
I agree with the fact that the individual and his guardians do share responsibility for his activities. However, once the individual requested deletion of that thread, I think the onus does shift to the participants of DW to consider respecting his wish and any potential circumstances from which it may have arisen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken
Does it really matter? Isn't the whole point about treating people equally that, if you act like an ass, someone tells you that you're being an ass?
It does matter because there are ways to express this that are helpful, and there are ways to express this that are not. The original thread was helpful. This one much less so.
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  #89  
Old 04-21-2016, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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In any case, my diagnosis is 'trolling'. It's anti-comedy. He's selling ads on his vids and drumming up business.
Zero point in deleting the thread if this was the case. He would continue to debate and "drum up business." (FWIW there is almost no money in YouTube until you get into the 100ks of views.)
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  #90  
Old 04-22-2016, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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Originally Posted by Push pull stroke View Post
I'd say, based on the weird way he hits the cymbals, that he is probably at least mildly autistic.
That also occurred to me and I was hesitant to post at all because of it.



And, it wasn't a diagnosis, simply an observation.
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  #91  
Old 04-22-2016, 12:25 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

When Keith Moon hit his cymbals softly (yes, it did happen), he would hold his sticks strangely as well.

But, he was different. ;-)
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  #92  
Old 04-22-2016, 02:17 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post
That also occurred to me and I was hesitant to post at all because of it.



And, it wasn't a diagnosis, simply an observation.
I wasn't trying to make everyone feel guilty for trashing his playing. Besides, if he really wants to be a good drummer, he's going to have to be able to take criticism and take an objective stance on his own playing.

I just hope he's not going to quit playing permanently. if he really wants to play badly enough, he won't, of course.
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  #93  
Old 04-22-2016, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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Originally Posted by running View Post
I agree with the fact that the individual and his guardians do share responsibility for his activities. However, once the individual requested deletion of that thread, I think the onus does shift to the participants of DW to consider respecting his wish and any potential circumstances from which it may have arisen.
There is a great lack of knowledge in the general population regarding people "on the spectrum".....

Many, many, many people are affected by some level of ASD. Many folks affected manage quite well on their own, without anyone supervising their every move. Including living on their own. You interact with folks affected by it on a daily basis, and you don't even know it. Most folks "on the spectrum" try very hard to not let it show. To be viewed as "different".

That doesn't change the fact that they can have very different perceptions of how people interact with them, nor does it change their instinctive reactions to most anything that others find different, weird or quirky. It's simply their particular outlook. A rough description is that they are simply wired differently.

I have a family member with ASD. The absolute best answer I can give folks who aren't familiar with it is that nothing is black and white. Nothing. Yet they look for that in everything. Terrible conflict.

Even with my personal familiarity with ASD, that wasn't my first reaction while watching the video. I'm not certain I agree, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out either.

I just hope that he hasn't gotten too discouraged IF he's continuing to read this thread. ESPECIALLY if its an ASD thing, but even if it isn't.
Assuming it's not a work....
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  #94  
Old 04-22-2016, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by running View Post
Zero point in deleting the thread if this was the case. He would continue to debate and "drum up business." (FWIW there is almost no money in YouTube until you get into the 100ks of views.)
True. A person on YouTube who hit 100k views on one of her videos said she got something like $28. So there's a career for you ;)
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  #95  
Old 04-22-2016, 05:52 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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I managed to get through 10 seconds of one of his covers.
Guys, it's not worth our attention...
Ditto.

It's actually awful. And I say this as someone who is not particularly good at drumming (industrially enthusiastic I'd say).

We got a saying in the UK which seems to fit the bill here.

"All the gear...no idea"
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  #96  
Old 04-22-2016, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GetAgrippa View Post
One thing the dude had more thumbs ups and followers than any video I've put up on YT. So I should probably keep my mouth shut and never ask for a critique.
And every single person who put a thumbs up is doing the guy no favours at all.
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  #97  
Old 04-25-2016, 03:22 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Very interesting topic!

I am thick skinned about many things (Or I TRY to be.. honestly I'm quite analytical and while that applies to external things for "good" it also causes mass self critical analysis. )

I started drumming with a full size kit around age 7 (ish) -- Self taught. Did the usual,.. played with other friends in middle school, high school who could play some rhythm guitar and the majority with headphones and hours of songs. Then finally getting into a proper band and doing local minor gigs, then the inevitable band breakup. Then somehow in the 20's the set is put up,.. don't play anymore (but always want to) And have finally returned home with a new kit purchased this month.

If I put up a video of me drumming now -- on THIS forum,.. I'd be terrified or expectant of mass criticism. (Of course the same May be true for a general non musician / drummer audience say just youtube).

There's a bit of difference putting this out for the general public and putting it up on a forum like this that is nothing but Drummers of all skill levels but Drummers none the less.

We are going to see, and hear things other people won't. Now I watched every drum video he has on his channel and his play is not ALL bad. He has some positives, and negatives as has been said. But again, he had put it up in front of an audience who are best able to find every little detail of 'mistake' but also an audience who can offer him the most constructive criticism/tips/advice.

I guess my main point here - is that he (and anyone who does post videos on a forum like this) should have realized that he's putting his performance/abilities/lack of/ etc in front of an audience of ALL Drummers :) -- Of course you are going to get picked apart,.. unless you are one of the best drummers in the world it's going to be hard to get nothing but praise from your peers in an art. Even the best in the world get criticized, by drummers, and non.

I would have liked to see the comments / responses - but the basic lesson is if you are going to put yourself on display,.. KNOW what you want out of it. If it's to 'show off' -- it [the comments] probably isn't going to be pretty. If it's to try to get some advice/tips on what you need improvement in/on - then you'll get it - but with that HAS to be criticism. Just praising things that aren't worthy of it do no one any good. As some others have said -- I think in an ideal world if everyone would comment with some positive, then the criticism, then finish with positive framing - it shouldn't be too tough to swallow. However, we are all diverse , speak differently, and have more or less tact than the next guy/woman.
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  #98  
Old 04-25-2016, 08:42 AM
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Ok, so I missed this thing.

Playing wise, he actually knows where 1 is, it's everything else that's no quite lined up.

I have some older private students sometimes, but my profession is teaching music to kids 8-19 in public music schools. You see a lot of different things. Often it's not teaching music in the norml sense, it's more social work.

There are a lot of things suggesting some sort of condition here.

If that's the case, "constructive criticisism" just isn't the way.



That said, there are a few grouoporientet social concepts that sometimes come in to play.

I've been ina few small towns where certain things like classical music and orchestral playing was held to a pretty high standard, but drums, electric guitars, rock, jazz and so on isn't really understood. If it looks like fun then it's sort of good and they're just kids bla bla bla.... The environment just doesn't understand or have real competence to nurture a different set of musical skills.

I remember very clearly going to a jam session at The Norwegian Youth Festivals of Art when I was around 13 yo playing some jazz and funk with some friends. Then there was this other band of older cool looking dudes with the hottest chicks on their arms that came up and played pretty much the most out of time, out of tune version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door" you'll ever hear. They had no idea how we could play the way we did, but in their own home town they probably were the hottest shit around.

Grown ups in these places have a double standard as they just don't really understand other types of music.
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  #99  
Old 04-25-2016, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
True. A person on YouTube who hit 100k views on one of her videos said she got something like $28. So there's a career for you ;)
I heard there's actually good money to be made in relation to drumming and YouTube but it's not so much about showcasing your drumming skills but more about filming yourself unpacking your new drum set. I don't even have the skills to do that.
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  #100  
Old 04-25-2016, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
How can you get to a level of multi-instrument playing, being able to basically replicate songs and patterns, but have no sense of the timing or pulse of the song?
I've had a few students like this and I can assure you it is possible.


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I think there's a 1% chance that he was trolling us like John said, but much more likely he's just the completely clueless "ima let you finish" type who puts his own delusional reality above the reality everyone else sees. It seems like it would be physically impossible to listen to that cream cover and not hear that you were all over the place and it sounded nothing like the original.
This might be factual objective reality, but it might not be his intention.
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  #101  
Old 04-25-2016, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

The OP put himself in a tough position. First of all, the forum members, when it comes to critiquing drumming videos, are generally much more forgiving to well known posters. People who have generously given of their time. When a guy comes in totally cold, never posting here, and the first thing he wants is us to listen to his playing...yes, we are generally less likely to sugar coat things when something isn't right. OTOH, I've seen brand new posters put up some really killer playing, and they were given huge props because their drumming deserved it. This guy put out a half baked cake, what did he expect? It's not our issue that he can't possibly fathom that he is not perfect in every way.

He didn't earn anything here by participating. And IMO there's nothing wrong with shattering illusions, provided they are detrimental. He kind of asked for it. I hope it woke him up. There is a faction of people who just blow in, they give nothing here, and they are looking for accolades from us. Takers, not givers. IMO, that is mildly abusive of the good people here, and he got what he set himself up for. Certain people can never fathom that they could possibly be off on something. Shattered illusions are just what this guy needed to experience. I feel bad for him in that I know how much something like that stings, but I'm sorry it needed to be said.
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  #102  
Old 04-25-2016, 06:11 PM
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The OP put himself in a tough position. First of all, the forum members, when it comes to critiquing drumming videos, are generally much more forgiving to well known posters. People who have generously given of their time. When a guy comes in totally cold, never posting here, and the first thing he wants is us to listen to his playing...yes, we are generally less likely to sugar coat things when something isn't right. OTOH, I've seen brand new posters put up some really killer playing, and they were given huge props because their drumming deserved it. This guy put out a half baked cake, what did he expect? It's not our issue that he can't possibly fathom that he is not perfect in every way.

He didn't earn anything here by participating. And IMO there's nothing wrong with shattering illusions, provided they are detrimental. He kind of asked for it. I hope it woke him up. There is a faction of people who just blow in, they give nothing here, and they are looking for accolades from us. Takers, not givers. IMO, that is mildly abusive of the good people here, and he got what he set himself up for. Certain people can never fathom that they could possibly be off on something. Shattered illusions are just what this guy needed to experience. I feel bad for him in that I know how much something like that stings, but I'm sorry it needed to be said.
Larry lands a right flowed by another right and then a left hook!!

BAM!! And he's out for the count!
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  #103  
Old 04-25-2016, 06:29 PM
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I've had a few students like this and I can assure you it is possible.
I don't understand. It implies you have a good ear for tone/pitch, but somehow didn't develop timing... To the point where you can't even hear timing problems when you listen back to something!

To be clear, with exceptions, I think almost everyone starts out that way. Initially the biggest hurdles might be getting your movements down and technique takes center stage over perfect timing... But really, by the time you've learned the fret boards and ways of several instruments, you didn't pay any attention to the fact that you're not playing in time?

Even weirder, I've heard (in person) pretty dang good guitar players who when they sit down at a drum kit to mess about, completely lose their sense of time! It's like their brain is overwhelmed and they turn spastic.
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  #104  
Old 04-25-2016, 06:40 PM
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I don't understand. It implies you have a good ear for tone/pitch, but somehow didn't develop timing... To the point where you can't even hear timing problems when you listen back to something!

To be clear, with exceptions, I think almost everyone starts out that way. Initially the biggest hurdles might be getting your movements down and technique takes center stage over perfect timing... But really, by the time you've learned the fret boards and ways of several instruments, you didn't pay any attention to the fact that you're not playing in time?

Even weirder, I've heard (in person) pretty dang good guitar players who when they sit down at a drum kit to mess about, completely lose their sense of time! It's like their brain is overwhelmed and they turn spastic.
That's how that condition is sometimes. It's not inherent to their joy of playing music. It can be worked in, but it requires a completely different perspective. Once you know what works though, it will continue working and it's best not to change much.
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  #105  
Old 04-25-2016, 07:15 PM
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That's how that condition is sometimes. It's not inherent to their joy of playing music. It can be worked in, but it requires a completely different perspective. Once you know what works though, it will continue working and it's best not to change much.
I'm just curious... Is there a special way to approach those students that will get them to finally hear the problem in their playing? Have you dealt with someone this delusional before or in most cases they listen? I would think they just need more time than most with a metronome and they'd start to get it, but this guy was playing covers, a fixed meter... And he couldn't hear it!

It really fascinates me. So amazing how our brains literally create our own universes and realities.
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  #106  
Old 04-25-2016, 07:33 PM
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I'm just curious... Is there a special way to approach those students that will get them to finally hear the problem in their playing? Have you dealt with someone this delusional before or in most cases they listen? I would think they just need more time than most with a metronome and they'd start to get it, but this guy was playing covers, a fixed meter... And he couldn't hear it!

It really fascinates me. So amazing how our brains literally create our own universes and realities.
Well, there are all kinds. In this case I'm refering to a mild type of autism or aspergers. These are just box definitions. Everyone is different, but sensitivities working similarly. You just have to be sensitive and if you register something working don't judge it on your own merits.

This guy was completely out of time, but the crashes were spot on the 1, so this leads to the possibility of something being a bit different.

If someone simply doesn't have time it's a bit different. Sure they sometimes have unrealistic ideas. How I'd approach it depends. They probably can't dance or clap in time either. The obvious solution then is to go completely back to basics, play slow and count, but I'll be on the lookout for anything instinctual to show up that I can build on to keep things less dry.

We often understand melody before we understand time, so I can work a bit from that angle.

I just have a big toolbox and a routine that helps me narrow things down pretty quickly at this point.

If they can imitate in time, you can sort of spot how that person perceives things and you can use that as a base to require the actual skills we're looking for. If you've been exposed to enough methods there should be a few that can work on some middle ground there. My goal is always to get into the same staples as anyone else, it will just take some time and I might switch normal methodical progression around a bit.

I have a standard method, but it just serves as a general roadmap and a guide to what skills basic training should give. How I approach that is different with everyone until we have a group of students with some common ground. In these small town school everything is usually initially so messed up that everyone is a special case until some groundwork has been done.

I could talk about these things for days. I've just done it so much and I came to the point where I always always make it work. Sometimes what I do looks weird, but we do get the results after a while.
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  #107  
Old 04-26-2016, 01:23 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Musicians and their egos. It's not easy to get up in front of people and perform. For many, ego is a shield that protects them from potential attacks. Ego also "protect" us from constructive criticism.

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Originally Posted by philrudd View Post
And this is why I've never uploaded a video of my playing.

I give myself enough grief over my drumming. No need for a chorus.
Phil, you've been posting for several decades :)

The other day I read a Steve Jordan interview where he said he loved your playing and that you suited the music you played more than any drummer he could think of. Given that, there wouldn't seem much point exposing yourself to a possible bagging by novice prog and metal bedroom drummers.
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Old 04-26-2016, 04:55 AM
incrementalg incrementalg is offline
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

If it's something that'll get you fired or divorced, then it's too much honesty.
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Old 04-26-2016, 11:48 PM
Otto Otto is offline
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Possibly cliche', but I am reminded of The Pass by RUSH off of Presto...

"Proud swagger out of the school yard
Waiting for the world's applause
Rebel without a conscience
Martyr without a cause"

In the light spread by that song, I would consider hard any comment I was to make to another artist on the internet...invited or not.

We just cant read between the lines enough to tell the effect we may have across the internet. Brittle egos abound and the effect of throwing them in to swim is far to often drowning.

To error on the side of caution or to blunder, and often hide agression, in brevity....a choice we can only make as individuals.

I didnt get to read the thread...so I have nothing to really say on the specifics.

In general, I like the idea of referring people to seeking a teacher where things have a bit more of a constructivly controlled edge.

Last edited by Otto; 04-27-2016 at 12:01 AM.
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