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  #41  
Old 03-27-2009, 02:18 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by Unevil View Post
With doubles, I believe the way you are explaining it is correct. You physically bring the stick down, letting the grip 'loosen' before the strike, so you have high momentum and with the looser grip, maximum rebound. after the second rebound (you gotta play on something with decent rebound @ first, ex: if practicing your first double strokes on a floor tom, you may not have much lock) you repeat the process by bringing the stick back down on the drum and repeating. Yes, on double stroke rolls the only fingers 'used' in performing the rolls are the index finger and the thumb (your fulcrum). I would try doing a couple rolls like this, so you get the general 'feel' for how they are played. After you have that down, add your other fingers to the sticks. These give support to your rolls so that your sticks aren't flying all over when you are doing a roll -- it is also part of good rolling technique. Sorry if I didn't describe this well enough, they are pretty easy once you get them down, and a priceless addition to your drumming technique.
I have to disagree with you about the use of fingers. To get real control and snap on the second note of a double stroke the middle, ring and pinky fingers need to be involved. Primarily, the upward force comes from the middle finger, but - depending on the technique - I know Spivackians might disagree - the ring and pinky fingers can be of great assistance.
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  #42  
Old 03-27-2009, 06:43 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by Unevil View Post
You physically bring the stick down, letting the grip 'loosen' before the strike... etc.

Sorry if I didn't describe this well enough, they are pretty easy once you get them down
I think this a problem we're all having trying to explain practicing a roll, text only provides a rather inadequate explanation. There's a lot of discussion about exactly how to use fingers, rebound, etc., and it ends up being a lot of rhetoric about technique, and not enough direction on just playing strokes evenly and with an accent.

If Sifty could see someone - in person - start slow and bring the roll to full speed, he'd understand the process in about 30 seconds and always know if his practicing and results conform, or not. Nobody would have to explain how to move the stick. An open roll doesn't require special technique. I don't think I have the right words to describe every action & reaction involved in moving a stick up and down, but if someone saw me do it, they'd get it immediately.

When I was 15 or 16 and had resigned myself to doing sloppy rolls, someone showed me one time about accenting the 2nd stroke, and it changed my rolls forever. He didn't tell me how to move the stick, or use my fingers, or utilize the rebound of the head... he told me how to practice a roll. Straight and to the point.

So once again, I'd recommend that Sifty take a lesson or two just to examine in person how a roll is supposed to sound, and that the teacher be a marching drummer who is less concerned with fingers, and more concerned with how to play a precise roll.

It's not rocket surgery!

Bermuda
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  #43  
Old 03-27-2009, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by Siftyzod View Post
im not quite sure how that helps me...i dont wanna see someone playing fast ..i wanna know how to do them
Hey Siftyzod,

Check out this clip from Derrick Pope. I hope it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJWld...e=channel_page

rjvsmb
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  #44  
Old 03-28-2009, 04:41 AM
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Default Re: Double strokes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZJb9fIHtJo

Might help ya .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siftyzod View Post
hi have been trying different things today have decided the double stroke roll is a waste of time




.For me playing Metal or anything i use Doubles all the time .They sound awesome used and improvised on the kit.

Last edited by Mad; 03-28-2009 at 05:49 AM.
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  #45  
Old 03-28-2009, 07:58 AM
Siftyzod Siftyzod is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by Boomka View Post
Wait, I'm confused: earlier you said that you didn't need them. :)

If you want to know how to DO them, you need to find someone who can help you in person, live and in the flesh. Is there a good teacher in your area? Where in the UK are you?
hi.
i am not in the Uk
Glenn
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  #46  
Old 03-28-2009, 08:14 AM
Siftyzod Siftyzod is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
I think this a problem we're all having trying to explain practicing a roll, text only provides a rather inadequate explanation. There's a lot of discussion about exactly how to use fingers, rebound, etc., and it ends up being a lot of rhetoric about technique, and not enough direction on just playing strokes evenly and with an accent.

If Sifty could see someone - in person - start slow and bring the roll to full speed, he'd understand the process in about 30 seconds and always know if his practicing and results conform, or not. Nobody would have to explain how to move the stick. An open roll doesn't require special technique. I don't think I have the right words to describe every action & reaction involved in moving a stick up and down, but if someone saw me do it, they'd get it immediately.

When I was 15 or 16 and had resigned myself to doing sloppy rolls, someone showed me one time about accenting the 2nd stroke, and it changed my rolls forever. He didn't tell me how to move the stick, or use my fingers, or utilize the rebound of the head... he told me how to practice a roll. Straight and to the point.

So once again, I'd recommend that Sifty take a lesson or two just to examine in person how a roll is supposed to sound, and that the teacher be a marching drummer who is less concerned with fingers, and more concerned with how to play a precise roll.

It's not rocket surgery!

Bermuda
hi there
i have been enjoying reading your posts.
fistly we dont have any marching bands here so that is out
and yes i agree see the way its played etc would be a help but i have been to about 5 teachers here in the last 10 years and they either tell me dont worry you will never need them or show me fast how they are done
so my faith in teachers is not very high
i have actually stopped practicing the rolls or anything for the last few days until i most ppl stop posting on here , as i am reading everyones ways of doing it and im in 2 minds about rolls
i think something with go click one day and i will see someone do them on a vid or live im not sure and i will see whats missing
i have practiced so much over the last couple of weeks im actually for the first time ever have really sores wrists
so i think i better hold up on anymore practicing on my practice pad
but please keep posting im finding it really interesting to read and learn from your experience.
Glenn
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  #47  
Old 03-28-2009, 02:59 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by Siftyzod View Post
hi.
i am not in the Uk
Glenn
Sorry, I'm not sure why I made that assumption... :) I think it was your use of the word "tutor" in place of "teacher". I'm from Canada but living in the UK now and it's much more common here than in NA.
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  #48  
Old 03-28-2009, 08:03 PM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by Siftyzod View Post
and yes i agree see the way its played etc would be a help but i have been to about 5 teachers here in the last 10 years and they either tell me dont worry you will never need them or show me fast how they are done...

but please keep posting im finding it really interesting to read and learn from your experience.
Unfortunately, I think our attempts to describe motion and sound in words have run their course. It's like learning to read music from a book or reading the posts made in a forum, It really doesn't work unless you have someone sit down next to you and show/explain the values and relationships of notes. I know your faith in teachers isn't strong, but if you've only tried 5, try a sixth. Or a seventh. It's inconceivable that there's not a drum teacher who can't demonstrate how to practice and execute a roll, without making it their personal jazz showcase. Maybe THEY need a lesson or two.

What city do you live in? Are there any professional players there? Perhaps there's a forum member nearby who can meet you at a music store and spend just one minute to show you how a roll should sound?

Bermuda
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  #49  
Old 03-29-2009, 01:27 AM
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Bret_Salyer Bret_Salyer is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

I'm learning too, and have been using this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiZUfWgl7OQ

And I like the one posted by Mad above where he applies it to the kit. Looks like the same technique though.

Last edited by Bret_Salyer; 03-29-2009 at 06:00 AM. Reason: clarification
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  #50  
Old 03-29-2009, 02:47 AM
Mad Mad is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

I like the van videos also Bret.Very informative.
I apply and improvise like the video i posted ,Endless possibilities.
Awesome adding Paradiddles around kit also good stuff.


Edit: video i posted is not me ,its just a guideline.
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  #51  
Old 03-29-2009, 09:03 AM
Siftyzod Siftyzod is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Unfortunately, I think our attempts to describe motion and sound in words have run their course. It's like learning to read music from a book or reading the posts made in a forum, It really doesn't work unless you have someone sit down next to you and show/explain the values and relationships of notes. I know your faith in teachers isn't strong, but if you've only tried 5, try a sixth. Or a seventh. It's inconceivable that there's not a drum teacher who can't demonstrate how to practice and execute a roll, without making it their personal jazz showcase. Maybe THEY need a lesson or two.

What city do you live in? Are there any professional players there? Perhaps there's a forum member nearby who can meet you at a music store and spend just one minute to show you how a roll should sound?

Bermuda
hi there
i live i in christchurch new zealand
thanks
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  #52  
Old 03-29-2009, 10:04 AM
aboylikedave aboylikedave is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

The hard thing with being a beginner is that you hear so much it is hard to know what the real key things are. I entirely share your frustration. My advice is - play doubles at 80bpm. Are they ABSOLUTELY PERFECT. If they are not, don't even try to speed up as it won't work. And I mean perfect, same height, speed, trajectory.

In other words: Wax on, wax off!

Good luck bro

Last edited by aboylikedave; 03-29-2009 at 01:07 PM.
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  #53  
Old 04-01-2009, 06:36 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Practice. And start slow and stay slow. The worst thing you can do is keep starting slow, speeding up, falling apart, and repeating that cycle. You will never, ever break out of it. Start slow, and when you are absolutely, completely, supremely, undeniably, unhurriedly confident that you have mastered something at that speed, then - AND ONLY THEN - you should increase the tempo slightly. Rolls - or anything - won't be developed or perfected immediately, and a certain amount of patience is required if you want to drum well. Or do anything well for that matter.

Bermuda

This is the best advice in a very long time.

Bermuda, excelent.
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  #54  
Old 04-01-2009, 06:40 PM
Siftyzod Siftyzod is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by Hercraft View Post
This is the best advice in a very long time.

Bermuda, excelent.
agreed it was wat i was trying
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  #55  
Old 04-01-2009, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes

It got to the point where I think it was a joke.

The thing is sifty zod, you may not need to double strokes from now on then but I can guarantee there is a technique on the guitar where you are going to be asking the same question on a guitar forum, obviously not about the double stroke!

-Trys
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  #56  
Old 04-01-2009, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes

Wow, 2 drummers from Christchurch, New Zealand? All in one thread. And saying totally outrageous things to boot. Could this be an April fools thread? Paul Quin, I think you may have taken the bait!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjvsmb View Post
Hey Siftyzod,

Check out this clip from Derrick Pope. I hope it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJWld...e=channel_page

rjvsmb

Seriously though, I am working at improving my doubles which I ignored for far too long. It's coming along (and I'm not quitting!) but reading alot of the advice here, I'm still a little confused.

Bermuda, you are saying it is not a pressed roll, but 2 individual strokes. Do you agree with the above video from Derek Pope that starts off instructing to do 2 hits with one hand-wrist motion? And I'm going to try to implement the accenting of the second note too. Hope it helps.

I do agree that in-person instruction would be the best way to go at this point though.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

And thanks New Zealand for this great thread and unleashing Flight of the Conchords on America
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  #57  
Old 04-01-2009, 10:38 PM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by Pavlos View Post
Bermuda, you are saying it is not a pressed roll, but 2 individual strokes. Do you agree with the above video from Derek Pope that starts off instructing to do 2 hits with one hand-wrist motion?
An open/double-stroke is not a press/buzz roll. Different approach, different sounds.

I had to watch myself do a roll, and my motion is a little hard to describe. Then again, I'm not practicing rolls, I'm playing them. For example, accenting the 2nd stroke is a practice-only thing, it has nothing to do with the finished roll. I am in fact moving my wrist once for both strokes, but that may not be the best way to practice if it involves someone having to learn that motion before they can learn what to do with it. It's simpler to skip focusing on technique, and focus on the goal: evenly-spaced, even-volume strokes. The means to that end will be governed by the particular person's existing style.

I learned traditional grip (before it was even called traditional!) and that's how I played everything, including rolls. To this day, I still play rolls and few other things traditional. Should I learn to do rolls with a matched grip? No. Why? Because I can already do rolls. Having me re-learn a grip so that I can play the same thing doesn't help me grow. Along those lines, if someone's already holding/moving their sticks in a comfortable manner, I think getting them to re-learn sticking is only going to be more frustrating than helpful. Not sure if that makes sense...

Bermuda
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  #58  
Old 04-01-2009, 11:14 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes

It does make sense. Your view on traditional grip is why I'm sticking with match grip. it's what I've played for years and I am getting there with the doubles.

Thanks a bunch for the reply and all the helpful tips.
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  #59  
Old 04-06-2009, 11:35 AM
Wars Van Wars Van is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

This thread has really helped me, i have been struggling with double rolls as long as i play drums. Having said that it's now more clear to me that i had actually never really struggled with them, i was always just fluking them if that makes any sense. Anyway thanks for the help on the subject, up to me now to put in the hours i suppose!

I was wondering if someone could explain what a buzz roll is? Sorry if its off topic but perhaps also helpful for Siftyzod.
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  #60  
Old 04-06-2009, 03:36 PM
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larryace larryace is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

Buzz roll press roll, same thing. You "dig" your sticks into the head getting 4 or 5 "tight to the head" rebounds.

FWIW,

For double stroke rolls, I'd like to break from the majority of the advise here and state that I do not do 2 separate hits, I would go nuts trying to make that flow, I just do 1 hit and a bounce, as per Derrick Pope's video. If you have good control of the bounce, this makes a beautiful effortless sounding roll. The bounce has to be at the same height and volume as the stroke for this to sound even.
Conversely, on a paradiddle, I definitely do make 2 separate hits, I don't bounce the "diddle".
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  #61  
Old 04-06-2009, 05:17 PM
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Ian Ballard Ian Ballard is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Buzz roll press roll, same thing. You "dig" your sticks into the head getting 4 or 5 "tight to the head" rebounds.

FWIW,

For double stroke rolls, I'd like to break from the majority of the advise here and state that I do not do 2 separate hits, I would go nuts trying to make that flow, I just do 1 hit and a bounce, as per Derrick Pope's video. If you have good control of the bounce, this makes a beautiful effortless sounding roll. The bounce has to be at the same height and volume as the stroke for this to sound even.
Conversely, on a paradiddle, I definitely do make 2 separate hits, I don't bounce the "diddle".
I think it's fair to say that most people who play good doubles do "control the bounce" and "do not play a separately derived second stroke".

You focus on controlling the bounce, pulling the stick "up" or "popping it off the head", and after having done so for a while, you no longer have to "separate" the second stroke. You body automatically produces a second "controlled bounce" that sounds even with the initial stroke. Let me also state that simply letting the stick "bounce" will never, ever, no matter how hard you try... produce an even, equal sound to an initial full stroke. You have to work on the addendum stroke, in order to control it.
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  #62  
Old 04-06-2009, 06:25 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by Ian Ballard View Post
You have to work on the addendum stroke, in order to control it.
Yes, you have to give that second stroke a little help, to keep the volume even. I use my middle finger on the back of the stick for controlling, actually "helping" the bounce whether I need 1 bounce for a double stroke roll, or 2 bounces for a triplet type thing, or 3 bounces for a 16th note type thing. I usually don't find the need to bounce any more than 3, unless you're displaying 1 handed stuff.
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  #63  
Old 04-07-2009, 04:20 AM
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by Ian Ballard View Post
You focus on controlling the bounce, pulling the stick "up" or "popping it off the head", and after having done so for a while, you no longer have to "separate" the second stroke.
Ian,

When I practice double strokes at a slow tempo, do I need to make an effort to use mainly fingers (i.e. minimal wrist) for the 2nd "popping it off the head" stroke? I hope my question makes sense...
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  #64  
Old 04-07-2009, 02:37 PM
Siftyzod Siftyzod is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

ok not sure how much sense of logic this may add but i found holding my left stick slightly higher i seem to get a lot more bounce with smaller strokes..
i have been playing around with different stick grips and grip positions...havent taken it to a kit yet as i dont own one now...but once i move from the pad be ken to see how it pans out...i am getting a little more speed and control...i havent practice the strokes in a week or so now..maybe that could be why too
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  #65  
Old 04-07-2009, 02:56 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes

Start slow- listen for the space between strikes- this is as important. I use the bounce from the head from slow to really fast..If you can use the bounce you will have a very fast roll...
Thats how I was taught, its how I teach and it works- just a matter of making the beats sound even and spaced well and consistant.
Good luck, sure in time you will have it licked!
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  #66  
Old 04-07-2009, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by sciomako View Post
Ian,

When I practice double strokes at a slow tempo, do I need to make an effort to use mainly fingers (i.e. minimal wrist) for the 2nd "popping it off the head" stroke? I hope my question makes sense...
I always have students work on developing an "upstroke" so that their hands have an instinctive capability to do so when necessary. Just start about an inch off the head and do the opposite of a downstroke, where you stop an inch off the head. Simply develop the fingers and wrists to be able to bring the stick up from an inch and integrate that into double strokes. At some point, you'll no longer have separate strokes. Your hands will naturally adjust and your addendum stroke will be every bit as strong as the initial one.

I should probably make a video to demonstrate.
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  #67  
Old 04-07-2009, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes

A good excersise that I learned and practice to make my strokes even is to play with one hand on the snare or practice pad, and the other on a pillow or my leg so I can distinguish the difference tones my stick is making when it is hitting the drumhead. It is a cool trick to actually see hoe even or uneven your playing actually is; it may suprise you! Try practicing paradiddles this way and move on from there! _Good Luck-Beaner
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  #68  
Old 04-08-2009, 03:51 AM
sciomako sciomako is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by Ian Ballard View Post
I always have students work on developing an "upstroke" so that their hands have an instinctive capability to do so when necessary. Just start about an inch off the head and do the opposite of a downstroke, where you stop an inch off the head. Simply develop the fingers and wrists to be able to bring the stick up from an inch and integrate that into double strokes. At some point, you'll no longer have separate strokes. Your hands will naturally adjust and your addendum stroke will be every bit as strong as the initial one.

I should probably make a video to demonstrate.
Ian,

Sorry, I think I didn't ask my question clearly.

I understand how to practice the overall movement. I understand the idea is to consciously accenting the 2nd stroke when practicing . There is only a single point I want to clarify: Do I have to consciously train my hands to use fingers instead of wrists to control the 2nd stroke?
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  #69  
Old 04-08-2009, 09:42 AM
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by sciomako View Post
Ian,

Sorry, I think I didn't ask my question clearly.

I understand how to practice the overall movement. I understand the idea is to consciously accenting the 2nd stroke when practicing . There is only a single point I want to clarify: Do I have to consciously train my hands to use fingers instead of wrists to control the 2nd stroke?
Actually, you don't have to consciously (or otherwise) accentuate the second stroke, if you are able to execute an EVEN stroke to accommodate the first one. Generally speaking the upstroke is a subtle combination of both fingers and wrist, but once you work it into a double-stroke, it's even more subtle to the point where you aren't thinking "wrists or fingers", but it's going to be more fingers squeezing the stick, then a wrist movement at high speeds.
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:09 PM
sciomako sciomako is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by Ian Ballard View Post
Actually, you don't have to consciously (or otherwise) accentuate the second stroke, if you are able to execute an EVEN stroke to accommodate the first one. Generally speaking the upstroke is a subtle combination of both fingers and wrist, but once you work it into a double-stroke, it's even more subtle to the point where you aren't thinking "wrists or fingers", but it's going to be more fingers squeezing the stick, then a wrist movement at high speeds.
Ian,

I hope you don't mind I ask some more questions.

As you explained, at high speed, it's more the fingers doing the work to control the sticks. As I play with German grip, my fingers have been taking a pretty passive role so far. That makes me think I have to dedicate some extra time to learn to play with my fingers without any help from the wrists. Or do I just need to practice the doubles and eventually my hand/finger combo will get accustomed to movement and automatically use more and more fingers when I up the speed?

Many thanks.
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  #71  
Old 04-08-2009, 08:05 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes

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Originally Posted by Siftyzod View Post
ok i know where your coming from and hope u dont mind the next lot of questions

1. is the push pull techique a correct way to play it?
2. does the push pull continue into high tempo or does technique change?
3. what type of service do you want to practice on?
4. should u focus on your weaker hand first?
5. can they be played without using fingers and just wrist?
6. any other tips

U dont have to answer them all...they are just questions i have at the mo...
i can assure you there will be more
Glenn
1. No such thing as a correct way, it's better IMO to stroke them out. They don't require grueling amounts of effort.
2. It's called speedo rolls, they're still doubles but pumped with the arm. I don't know if the push pull technique can get into the 200 bpm range I never tried.
3. What?
4. No you should build them evenly.
5. Yes at slower speeds.
6. To play ballsy double stroke rolls, start off slow doing RRLLRRLL stroking every note out maxing out the wrist and continue to build from there. You can do the push pull technique later (if you really want to) but for starters do what I said. Once you learn them, You'll find so many uses for them. Also I'm sorry it took you 5 years and still haven't gotten the double stroke roll built up.
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  #72  
Old 04-09-2009, 01:59 PM
Dedworx Dedworx is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes

Hi siftyzod.
my attempt at answering your questions:

1. its what i use. using the rebound. using more fingers depending on how much rebound i'm getting from the surface. (doubles sound the same on pillow, leg, snare drum, pad, ect.)
2. push pull works all the way, and just gets smaller as you get faster, using a smaller motion.
3. i think you mean surface?i have practiced on pillows for finger control but on a drumset to use my fingers with the actual rebound. having built the control up.
4. i practised(still do) both hand lead. just listen intently to how your rolls sound, and make adjustments when you need to. practicing leading with each hand is a good thing.
5. yes, slowly, and i guess faster?but its easier if you use the rebound of the surface and the control of your fingers.
6. i used the accent the second note of each double to develop. the first note very quiet, the second very loud. a tap and then a bigger stroke.- letting the stick almost completely leave my hand and then the fingers close around it for the bigger stroke.(used this way to develop my fingers, didn't use it in music)
over i time got faster with this until i got to a speed i couldn't do the accent and flattened out the dynamics. and then from there was playing even doubles.
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Old 04-10-2009, 05:31 PM
sloppyjmama sloppyjmama is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Default Re: Double strokes

Ready for this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w_pTFNQ4LA

This is double stroke rolls on a set (Don't do his technique however)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOQuhTa6tAs
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Last edited by sloppyjmama; 04-10-2009 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Another video
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