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  #41  
Old 12-05-2015, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

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Originally Posted by bud7h4 View Post
The way Alex rides the crash is a huge part of their sound. It's a signature really. But it's not a distinct crash, crash, crash, etc, it's more of a constant swell. It's beautiful.
That's why I don't mind Alex's way of doing it. I like a wash. It's when I hear the individual crashes on the quarter notes...to me it's barbaric and juvenile and it actually annoys me.

What I'm saying, not that it matters much, but on the songs where it is appropriate to bash the quarters on the crash, I detest that approach and wish they'd move it to the hi hat.

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  #42  
Old 12-05-2015, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
That's why I don't mind Alex's way of doing it. I like a wash. It's when I hear the individual crashes on the quarter notes...to me it's barbaric and juvenile and it actually annoys me.

What I'm saying, not that it matters much, but on the songs where it is appropriate to bash the quarters on the crash, I detest that approach and wish they'd move it to the hi hat.

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What? Bashing a hi hat is better ???

Well, Larry I was backing you up in the beginning of this discussion because I have heard drummers bashing the crash during a nice guitar solo on a blues song.

But now this issue and this thread has gotten too complex for my simple musical mind. So I'm gonna' have to cut you loose on this subject.
Your on your own on this one Larry................


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  #43  
Old 12-05-2015, 06:11 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

The hi hat doesn't overpower like a crash. It works better to my ear. Crashes have too much sustain, it's like the loud blowhard at a party who talks way too loud and is just obnoxious.
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  #44  
Old 12-05-2015, 08:07 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

You gotta admit though, when the double bass drums are doing 32nd notes and the snare is on the 2 & 4, quarter note crashes sound pretty cool.
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  #45  
Old 12-06-2015, 01:53 AM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

It always surprises me the number of live bands I've seen where riding the crash (or the clang of a cheap China) drowns out what little of the vocals you can hear, kinda makes you wonder why the 'sound guy' doesn't say anything. But knowing how to play cymbals more quietly is a fine art lost on many!
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  #46  
Old 12-06-2015, 05:48 AM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
when drummers ride really loud on a crash cymbal during a verse? Or even a solo?

I get annoyed by it. It just smacks me as lazy. It's harder, but it would sound MUCH better, to do that wash on sloshy hi hats. JMO. It's easier to fill all the space with riding on the crash, but to my ears, it's just obnoxious. It makes me think the drummer is a barbarian.

I can't really help how it affects me, I was wondering what the general consensus is here.

I will concede that some songs really benefit from that kind of wash. I just would prefer it on the hi hats, not the cymbal. Reminds me of teenagers who got their first set and don't yet possess any finesse.

I'm probably walking through Hell in a gasoline suit here, but this has been weighing on my mind for many minutes now :)
It bothers me when others do it in the wrong context. When I do it, it's in the right place so I'm sure it doesn't bother anyone else ;)

Last edited by Matt Bo Eder; 12-06-2015 at 08:15 AM.
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  #47  
Old 12-06-2015, 06:05 AM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

Cymbals are a taste thing. I think a lot of players make too much cymbal noise, me too (I'm working on it). That's one of the things I liked about Ringo - he'd often let the rhythm guitar carry the 8th notes and it added clarity and threw the emphasis more on the melody. In their rockers he'd let rip with cymbal washes.

I like the way prog and fusion players use multiple cymbals as accents all over the place. But it's the kind of effect that should be used with care if you don't want the other players and listeners get ear fatigue. Unless they're maniacs, of course, in which case bash away :)
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  #48  
Old 12-06-2015, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post

I like the way prog and fusion players use multiple cymbals as accents all over the place. But it's the kind of effect that should be used with care if you don't want the other players and listeners get ear fatigue. Unless they're maniacs, of course, in which case bash away :)
Ear fatigue. That's the crux of the biscuit here. It fatigues my ear. It's inconsiderate when it overpowers the others, JMO.

Here's an analogy. Imagine the Beatles "I Saw Her Standing There". You know how Ringo is sloshing those hats all song long. Imagine that played with the bashcrash ride pattern. Obnoxious. Ear pain. Well at least in my mind. I don't expect everyone to agree with that, but it illustrates it for me.
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  #49  
Old 12-06-2015, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

In my circles,"barbaric" is a compliment.
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  #50  
Old 12-07-2015, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

"Barbaric" was the drummer from a local bar band ride/crashing an 18" china to the chorus of Steely Dan's Reeling in the years. The song started out sounding surprisingly good, then came the chorus.......I stayed for one more song, then left.
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  #51  
Old 12-07-2015, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Cymbals are a taste thing. I think a lot of players make too much cymbal noise, me too (I'm working on it). That's one of the things I liked about Ringo - he'd often let the rhythm guitar carry the 8th notes and it added clarity and threw the emphasis more on the melody. In their rockers he'd let rip with cymbal washes. ...
Funny you mention Ringo, 'cause one of the songs that my band plays is Day Tripper. In that song, in the lead solo, the last 6 bars I ride crash cymbals, alternating between two of them. And I do it because that is what I hear Ringo doing.

Of course, being a gentleman of exquisite taste and restraint, I ride with authority and command, never bash crashing.*

* At least some elements of this sentence may be less than 100% correct. At best.
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  #52  
Old 12-07-2015, 02:25 AM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Ear fatigue. That's the crux of the biscuit here. It fatigues my ear. It's inconsiderate when it overpowers the others, JMO.

Here's an analogy. Imagine the Beatles "I Saw Her Standing There". You know how Ringo is sloshing those hats all song long. Imagine that played with the bashcrash ride pattern. Obnoxious. Ear pain. Well at least in my mind. I don't expect everyone to agree with that, but it illustrates it for me.
Yeah, but my ears are fatigued by the kind of music that suits a lot of heavy crash riding anyway. The guitar, bass and vocals do my head in too. I used to love the way Rob Hirst from Midnight Oil used to crash ride during solos. Moonie's cymbal washes were great but the others were cranked to 11 so it was okay.

Larry, I think you covered it earlier - some musicians are just goofy and loud kind of guys, the kind of guys you might tell to whisper in a danger situation and they'd say WHY DO WE HAVE TO WHISPER? Some people get on a kit and they just have to shout. It never seems to occur to them to play more tastefully. I guess they're in it for the buzz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
Funny you mention Ringo, 'cause one of the songs that my band plays is Day Tripper. In that song, in the lead solo, the last 6 bars I ride crash cymbals, alternating between two of them. And I do it because that is what I hear Ringo doing.

Of course, being a gentleman of exquisite taste and restraint, I ride with authority and command, never bash crashing.*

* At least some elements of this sentence may be less than 100% correct. At best.
Of course you do, James. I always pegged you as a man of authority!

I used to crash ride in You've Got to Hide Your Love Away with the Mabels during the instrumental refrain. I was tapping at the edge of the crash as though it was a baby seal at a PETA convention. Being a K, the result was a warm, dark background wash that may or may not have worked but at least changed things up a bit.
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  #53  
Old 12-07-2015, 03:17 AM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

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...tapping at the edge of the crash as though it was a baby seal at a PETA convention...
Great turn of phrase there!

Cracked a grin at that.
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  #54  
Old 12-07-2015, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

During the 1930s and 40s, cymbals didn't have names, just sizes. As a result, players would ride on any cymbal or crash any cymbal. We still see this in jazz today; jazz drummers are able to coax a wide variety of sounds out of a limited number of cymbals by riding and crashing the cymbals in different places.

For instance, I just use two ride cymbals and Hi Hats, when I'm playing, and all of those can be used to ride (keep time) or crash (accent)
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  #55  
Old 12-07-2015, 03:58 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

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Originally Posted by GeoB View Post
That's what I figured, just curious & I never heard the term sloshy hats before... but it makes sense. Mersey Beat gives it definition, and historical reference.
Except some of us have no idea what "Mersey Beat" is in reference to. Also, "sloshy" hats were commonplace before the Beatles were even born. I don't think that was the term they used, but it gets the point across.
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  #56  
Old 12-07-2015, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

I actually have quite strong feelings on this...a lot of discussion here seems to have been about noise, but even in a noisy context I find it a less effectively option a lot of the time.

Take this (metal) example: Slayer's 'Disciple', originally recorded by Paul Bostaph.

Here's how Bostaph plays it.

And here's how Dave Lombardo plays it.

Apologies to the double kick averse among us! Lombardo, in my view, generally plays tighter and makes a better sound anyway, but I think the way he plays the ride for this is a much more groovy approach than the vague, washy crash-riding in Bostaph's version. It's one of the big specific differences I prefer in Lombardo's playing for Slayer.

Having said that, sometimes this approach is exactly what's needed...the person who first comes to mind is Abe Cunningham with Deftones. It's hard to imagine that ultra-sparse groove working as well without the washy crash, although at the note value he's playing it at there is still a discernable rhythm rather than a constant sustained note.
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  #57  
Old 12-07-2015, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

If it's too loud, then you're too old. What's the matter? Do those crash cymbals hurt your little ears? Ohhh, pobrecito....
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  #58  
Old 12-08-2015, 03:36 AM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

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Originally Posted by PQleyR View Post
I actually have quite strong feelings on this...a lot of discussion here seems to have been about noise, but even in a noisy context I find it a less effectively option a lot of the time.

Take this (metal) example: Slayer's 'Disciple', originally recorded by Paul Bostaph.

Here's how Bostaph plays it.

And here's how Dave Lombardo plays it.
My ears are going to be fatigued by that no matter how the riding is done!

Thing is, if you play a cymbal wash then other instruments in the kit must state the beat in lieu of riding accents. An old favourite cymbal wash is Ringo's during the solos of Come Together. Love the swampiness.

Pangs and china cymbals always appealed to me because you could fill in the sound like a crash, but with more definition of attack, which is great for extra intensity. Trouble is, a lot of people find them overbearing.
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  #59  
Old 12-08-2015, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Pangs and china cymbals always appealed to me because you could fill in the sound like a crash, but with more definition of attack, which is great for extra intensity. Trouble is, a lot of people find them overbearing.
True, however, Zildjian's Swish china are very low sounding (for a china) and they're quite good at crashing and riding without the typical trashiness of chinas. Available both with or without rivets (mine's an 18" without rivets.)
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  #60  
Old 12-08-2015, 10:54 AM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

Larry clinical trials have shown that putting a Condom on your head is beneficial for Ear Fatigue and protection .
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  #61  
Old 12-08-2015, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

...and the answer to most posts....

It Depends.
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  #62  
Old 12-10-2015, 04:02 AM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

Hate it, HAte it, HATE IT!
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  #63  
Old 12-10-2015, 10:51 AM
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True, however, Zildjian's Swish china are very low sounding (for a china) and they're quite good at crashing and riding without the typical trashiness of chinas. Available both with or without rivets (mine's an 18" without rivets.)
I never had a China or a pang though I had an old bent cymbal that sounded a bit like a China, which I found indispensable for some tunes. Used with taste they can add power and colour. Overused, as with any instrument, and they make a racket.
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  #64  
Old 12-10-2015, 02:54 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

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Larry clinical trials have shown that putting a Condom on your head is beneficial for Ear Fatigue and protection .
Tell us how that works out!
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  #65  
Old 12-10-2015, 04:30 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

I play in a cover band and *usually* play the drum parts as close as I can within my ability and make some parts my own depending on song. My band just covered the new tune "Ex's and Oh's." and will play it at a gig this weekend for the first time.

I played the chorus on the floor tom (as recorded.)

My singer/guitarist (we are a 3 pc) suggested to "rock it up a bit" and play the chorus while riding the crash. I will say that it definitely beefs up the song.

But I usually prefer NOT to do it during verses/solos so as not to overwhelm the vocals/guitars. Usually if a verse needs beefing, I'll slosh the hats.
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  #66  
Old 12-10-2015, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: Does it bother you...

[quote=larryace;1400195]Tell us how that works out![/QUOTE Self Explanatory i would have thought , or just don't let it bother you. Can't upload a pic of it but i'm sure people would enjoy the look.
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