Getting a good drum sound outside

Eggman

Member
So, it's the summer time here and that means a lot of outdoor gigs. I always have a tough time getting a drum sound that I like when playing outside, especially in the bass drum. I play mostly hard rock, and I like a nice deep thud, but outside all I can get is a high-end thwack. I can usually get the snare and toms sounding okay, but not great either.

I almost always mike up when outside. I've got a Shure Beta 52 for the bass drum, SM57 for the snare, and a PG81 for overhead. I run the three of those into a small mixer at my side, where I can listen with headphones and adjust levels. I then send the sound from that mixer to our band's PA. We don't have a sound guy or anything, so I've got to dial things in myself. It can be hard to tell if what I'm hearing in my mixer is what the audience is going to hear.

My question is: how do you approach getting a good drum sound outdoors? Any tips for tuning/muffling/mixing/EQing?
 
I am certainly not an expert, but I do have some tips that should help.

Inevitably you have to decide which of two lesser evils you will choose.

When you play outdoors with a PA you have your kit sound and your PA sound.

Usually you either find a mix of the two (like you would in small to medium sized club) or you just worry about your projected sound. Everybody inside the blast zone should have a monitor mix of some kind. Since you get that delay the louder you crank the PA, it makes sense that the wider the spread on the PA outdoors and the farther back you have to push "front row".

Tuning wise, I would suggest trying to get yoursounds oriented to the low or high side. Outdoors it can get really muddy in the middle. Tune rack toms a little higher and don't bother with dampening. Let them ring if that's what happens on the high end of the sweet spot. Either go low and boomy or tight and punchy on floor toms.

If it's an outdoor jazz festival and you have an audience that listens more than they talk, then bring your signature sounds otherwise the shouting, cheering and general large din of crowd noise means use the louder and brighter cymbals.

If you've ever struggled with a fast crash all night when everybody cranks it all the way up and you feel like you're trying to fend someone off with a paper bag, you will get louder and brighter cymbals.

I use an Emad with the larger foam ring tuned a little tighter than the "typical rock thud" for almost everything. If somebody says that my kick sound is boinging too much for their taste then I loosen it up a bit, I like the bouncier feel and attack from a tighter bass head. I don't like the flappy head papery sound. Reso heads needs to sing a clear note. Don't let it rattle next to your mic, it sounds even worse outdoors.
 
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Thanks TTNW for the tips.

I'm not playing big outdoor festivals/stadiums or anything, mostly just outdoor restaurants/parties, so people are going to hear some of the drum sounds directly. I usually have just a little bit of snare/overhead in the mix just for reinforcement, and then a lot of bass drum since it won't cut through as much as the other stuff.
 
A sub will really help your kick drum outside. We have two mackie powered subs and the kick drum is slamming outside. I always have another band member hit the drums while I go out front and listen to them.

You can get the same effect with just one sub, they are usually expensive but they make all the difference in the world especially outside. I think there is a good jbl one for around $800. One guy I play with has a qsc powered sub that is really portable and small and it sounds killer. It is about a grand though.

There is a thing called the proximity effect with mics where the closer you put the mic to the sound source the more low end boost you will get. I don't know if this means closer to the batter head, but I think if you put it closer to the resonant head it sounds really bassy. I put my mic just in the hole even with the reso head and I get really good sounds that way.
 
Hopefully your kick drum is 22 or larger. I have no problems outdoors, I always thought it was easier to get a good sound outdoors. (no standing waves or funky reflections) Your mics sound great, the only thing I can think of is your tuning. You say you want a low thud but all you get is a high end thwack...sounds like tuning to me, or possibly EQ on your mixer or the PA's EQ. Let someone else play your kit after you get it sounding like you think you want it. Listening from out in the audience is the only way you know for sure what the results are.
 
Hopefully your kick drum is 22 or larger. I have no problems outdoors, I always thought it was easier to get a good sound outdoors. (no standing waves or funky reflections) Your mics sound great, the only thing I can think of is your tuning. You say you want a low thud but all you get is a high end thwack...sounds like tuning to me, or possibly EQ on your mixer or the PA's EQ. Let someone else play your kit after you get it sounding like you think you want it. Listening from out in the audience is the only way you know for sure what the results are.

It's usually a 24". How do you usually tune your bass drum for outside? Do you use any muffling? How do you EQ it?

I usually keep both heads about medium-loose, and have an Evans EQ pad, and a 6" hole in the front head. For EQing the BD on my mixer I'll take a little off the highs/mids and boost the lows a bit. Then for my channel on the main PA I'll keep it flat.
 
It's usually a 24". How do you usually tune your bass drum for outside? Do you use any muffling? How do you EQ it?

I usually keep both heads about medium-loose, and have an Evans EQ pad, and a 6" hole in the front head. For EQing the BD on my mixer I'll take a little off the highs/mids and boost the lows a bit. Then for my channel on the main PA I'll keep it flat.

Something to try......... you said you use a beta 52 mic, is it on a boom stand ? If so, stick that sucker through the port hole in the front head and aim it directly at the beater, about 3 inches away from the batter head. Don't be afraid to experiment a little with the mic positioning, there is no right or wrong place. Then, mix in a little bit of highs in your mix. Im no engineer or anything, but that's what i noticed a lot of sound guys do for my kick (20" Taye tour pro, at the time i used an aquarian superkick 2) and it worked GREAT outdoors ! A friend of mine who is a sound engineer, said that one of the keys to getting great lows is to use some highs in the mix.
 
bass drum tuning that I stand by with all of my essence.
tune your front head tight so it rings really bright. then tune your batter head pretty tight. about half the tension of the front head. that it the only way I have found to ever get great bass projection out of my bass drum. with that you can feel the bass from anywhere. and I don't pad my drum, that is an important part of my set up. padding in a live, un-miced setting absolutely kills any sort of projection of that bass thud.
this is all stuff that I have experienced. try it if you want.
 
I don't change my tuning for outside...I always keep my batter on the kick a little above JAW, not much...I keep the reso medium tight. For EQ, I don't boost lows, there are plenty of lows already, I boost mids slightly and highs a little more to get good attack. I keep the lows at unity. I built my own internal muffler on the kick that acts exactly like an internal muffler on vintage kits, using pressure, and my "muffling pad" is about 9" x 5".
Outdoors is easy IMO. I'd say loosen your batter head, but keep the reso relatively tight by comparison, that's probably the source of the undesireable frequencies, your batter head. Loosen it up a bit and see if that does it.
 
I play a great deal many outdoor gigs every year.
When there is no sound man, I always just mic the bass drum and the snare. Also I use one overhead.
I find that I simply have to hit harder when I'm outside. That's it! I simplify my playing because I can't hit hard and still play as intricately as I would under more controlled indoor conditions.
I also play with larger sticks.
I don't tune any differently than I normally do.
 
If you happen to be playing on a stage that is on the bigger side. Mics is imperative.

See where the PA speakers are in relation to the band. If they are out in front of the stage this can cause a delay for the audience. If I remember right (from my sound engineer days ) sound travels at 1,125 ft/sec. 100 feet is enough to cause inaudible sound.

If this is the case, do not play louder than the PA or the sound from your drums will reach the crowd after the sound of the rest of the band, and/or the sound of your drums coming through the PA...
 
I love playing outside from a kit sound POV. The great thing about outside gigs is that the acoustics are predictable. The formula for a good sound is very simple. Your kit needs to sound great in the first place. Good tuning, head selection, etc is the foundation. Get that wrong, & everything else you do is a waste of time. Don't muffle too much. Just as in any other live amplified band context, you need sustain to carry the tones through the mix. Good mics, well placed, is the next element. Sounds like you're using half decent mics, so that shouldn't be an issue. The one element that might be missing, is a good quality PA system. I'm not talking full concert rig stuff here, just a PA with a nice clear mid & top end and some subs that can deliver real low frequencies. The PA needs to be able to move some air at the bottom end to get that full sound you're looking for. Outside, you don't have the benefit of room effect/bass traps to accentuate the lower frequencies. From an overall control POV, that's a good thing, but it does mean you need to move more air below about 80Hz.

We've just played an outside gig for around 700 audience with our own band PA. We've only got around 800W through 2 x 12" subs and 600W through 2 x 2 way top cabs. That's pretty small stuff in the world of outside PA's, yet we get a really clear & full sound. The make is DB Technologies so the quality is high. In most makes, 12" subs are a bit on the small size. You're usually better off with 15" subs if you can transport them. I'm currently trying to upload some footage from that gig. If I succeed (takes 1 hour for me to upload 1 track then it crashes just before it's finished, Arrggghh), I'll post a link here and you can decide for yourself.
 
Thanks for the tips everyone.

My band has a fairly modest PA (basically just 2 speakers and a monitor wedge), so it may be time to invest in some subs.
 
Yea, subs.

Koo Koo Ka Choo there Eggman

signed,

The Walrus.
 
I'm assuming that's the reference. Unless you actually work with eggs? Please clue me in.
 
If you are just doing an SOS (speakers on sticks) gig, keep your drums out of the PA. Leave everything as open as you can. No muffling of any kind. The resonance or tone will be the only thing that will carry. And it won't sound ringy at all outside.

It's not really practical to think about the kick sound you hear on recordings or big concerts unless you can afford serious PA. A couple of 15" 2ways on the corners of the stage may work for singing through, and helping out the keyboard, but you aren't going to hit anyone in the chest.

To get a big kick sound, you need substantial subs. Basic rule is twice what you'd use indoors. And putting them on either side of the stage will create what is called a power alley. That isn't so bad in itself, but you'll get massive holes in the coverage of the bass. Often right in front of the subs because of cancellation from the other side. Typical thing to do is put the subs in the middle of the stage (called center cluster) although I like to spread them out just a little. If you get the spacing right, you can steer the coverage. There's a bit of a science to this involving the wavelengths so if you don't want to read up on it, just put whatever you have in the center front of the stage.

Basically, you aren't going to get that big concert kick sound unless you have some serious subbage. Starting point for an outdoor street festival or such is a pair of SRX728s with at least one PL6.0 amp if not more. I have four 18Sound LW1400 18" subs which are the same drivers as what's in the top of the line EAW subs, driven by a 6500W Crest amp (which needs it's own 30A supply so I have to run the whole rig off a 50A 240V construction outlet). And I can't get that big hammering kick sound outdoors unless it's on a narrow street with the boundaries of tall buildings.

Any serious PA provider will delay the mains to the backline. Typically the snare since it carries off the stage more than anything else. A DBX Driverack 260 or other higher end processor has plenty of delay to make the mains appear to be playing at the same time as the back of the stage. A Driverack PA does not. One way to tell if you're dealing with a real PA company or a for fun guy. If you can't delay the mains to the backline, then you either need to be louder than the PA (like the SOS set up) or have the PA seriously overwhelming the stage sound. Not likely with a couple of 2 way mains and music store subs (Mackie, Yamaha, JBL JRX series, all the familiar names folks will tell you about, never mind useless stuff like B52, Cerwin Vega, and various "house brands").

Just leave your kick wide open and don't worry about it. Play your heart out. This kind of gig may be one of the few times folks won't be yelling at you about playing quieter. Make the songs go, and the absence of a big time kick sound won't matter.

But if you feel you have to have it, open your pocketbook and see above.

Pro sound mantra, buy once, cry once.
 
Thanks for the tips everyone.

My band has a fairly modest PA (basically just 2 speakers and a monitor wedge), so it may be time to invest in some subs.
I hear what Aeolian says, & he's right. To get chest crushing kick you need to move serious air, & to do that you need big power & quality subs. On the other hand, if you're simply after a balanced spectrum with enough bottom end to offer a clean & full sound, investing in a couple of modest but high quality subs will pay off. I described our setup in my earlier thread. Here's a recording taken from around 100 ft away from the stage, using a hand held Zoom Q3, at a recent outdoor gig for 700 people. Ok, you can hear a lot of audience chatter as it was recorded from the back of the crowd, but you get some idea of the sound. No EQ or post recording processing. Put on some good cans and see if you like the sound. Remember, this is what the audience at the back was hearing.
 

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I hear what Aeolian says, & he's right. To get chest crushing kick you need to move serious air, & to do that you need big power & quality subs. On the other hand, if you're simply after a balanced spectrum with enough bottom end to offer a clean & full sound, investing in a couple of modest but high quality subs will pay off. I described our setup in my earlier thread. Here's a recording taken from around 100 ft away from the stage, using a hand held Zoom Q3, at a recent outdoor gig for 700 people. Ok, you can hear a lot of audience chatter as it was recorded from the back of the crowd, but you get some idea of the sound. No EQ or post recording processing. Put on some good cans and see if you like the sound. Remember, this is what the audience at the back was hearing.

Cool, thanks for the track. Sounds good!

I'm not really looking for that intense metal "feel it in your stomach" kick, just a well-balanced overall sound.

For now I'm just going to play around with tuning a bit and see what I can do with the equipment we've got, but long-term our band will probably want to invest on some subs.
 
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