VST Drumming (Share opinions, howtos, knowledge and discussions)

Anybody interested in vst drumming in this forum? Please post anything from your works, experiences, knowledge and questions to advices and tips&tricks.

VST?

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VST - Virtual Studio Technology. to be more precise I would like to share any kind of knowledge about electronic drumming and edrumming related issues, recording&editing electronic drums, midi drumming, drums plugins (fxpansion's bfd, toontrack's dfh superior, native instrument's battery etc), home recording, professional recording gimmicks, all sorts of gear, protools, ableton live, cubase tips&tricks and so on...

I'm just getting into this in a big way. I currently trigger BFD2 from my Roland TD-12. The sound quality from the wav. files just blows the Roland native sounds out of the water. BFD2 is loaded on my mac.

I am considering taking my mac out of the loop and getting Muse's Receptor. That's really the most reliable method of using this stuff live.

I am new to this so any input on this would be appreciated.

hey there!

it is really nice to have some sort of feedback to the thread so that i don't feel alone any more.

it is true that fxpansion's bfd and toontrack's dfh superior blows the native samples of not only the td12 even the td20 or lets say all trigger modules of any manufacturer in the market.

that kind of software (namely bfd2) has some sort of a very powerful software engine to make all the calculations of the dynamics of the sample to be triggered so that's why you will need a decent performance in both your computer and your sound card to be able to cope with realtime acoustic dynamics of the instrument and the playing physicality of the drummer.

i understand you are a mac user so it shouldn't be a problem for you but for myself i needed an upgrade of my entire hardware so now i am using a core 2 duo 2,33MHz pc with 2gigs of 800MHz ram on a quad core supported mainboard with a 1333MHz FSB.

Normally the sampling process is a pain in the ass but the guys that produced those software already handled that for us. I have been amazed by the toontrack guys showcasing the new superior drummer 2.0 in namm 2008. In the video somewhere he mentioned that sample any hit 20 times left and 20 times right stroke (for instance for the snare drum and knowing the fact that even the most proficient drummers left and right hands vary in terms of stick control) at every single midi velocity. And the engine only does trigger the same sample after 20 consecutive hits with same dynamics and velocity so there is no chance to have a machinegun sound with this one. just amazing

Muse receptor is an awesome solution to bypass the computer in terms of it's performance and being standalone but if you don't need those samples and features with you on stage or if you are not touring a lot, i don't quite see the necessity to invest $2500-3000 to a midi host.

So anyway i think there is some good videos you might be interested in. I am including the urls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVkBP4O0LU - about bfd, muse receptor and drumkat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-riu6QZ7xE - about bfd and zendrum and guru
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roLX4ZW2Ldk - the namm 2008 showcase i was talking about

Cheers!

i just started messing around with vst stuff in Cubase. I don't have any kind of drum controller (yet) but i think with my limited amount of space i'm just going to get a MPC type unit with USB connectivity.

At the moment i just have a 4 octave M-Audio midi controller that does the trick nicely for entering in midi notes. I have absolutely no knowledge of actually "playing" keyboards, so my fun factor with this thing is getting pretty limited.

I don't think i could ever trust a computer enough to use VST as a live rig... too much can go wrong... it would be like putting a beater through your kick drum head, except that happens to every drum and cymbal at the same time.

For my home recording I use my iMac with Garage Band.
My M-Audio Oxygen8 V-2 Midi Controller which also serves as my keyboard/synth using the various instruments and loops in Garage Band,
And my M-Audio USB Pre Amp with 2 Mic inputs. Then I use 2 overhead mics or one overhead, one in front of bass drum.

i also use the same midi controller (m-audio oxygen 8 v2) for entering the midi notes for laying down a bass guitar line. once i get that down with a decent tempo and with minimal erorrs on note lengths and timings (i don't quite like to use quantizing, i was never pleased with the end result somehow. (cause once you use quantize then you spend some time to humanize it so why the effort, right? ), then i get the drumline straight with my yamaha dtx. it feels more like the real deal compared to finger playing on the keyboard or using the pencil tool in the key editor for the drums so my challenge is to lay down the drum track with most possible few takes and errors. i do some editing for sure afterwards if needed. (i always do to be honest). i use m-audio fast track pro usb 4x4 24bit/96Khz audio interface. here are some pictures of my playground.


This used to be the layout previously.


This is now how my gear looks like

Great thread gentlemen!

I've long been interested in and involved in (to some degree) the electronic side of drumming and I would absolutely love to buy a Muse Receptor. However, Mrs. Spleen would not be fond of me shelling out that kind of cash right now (can you believe it????), especially since I've spent lots of money over the past year on new drums, cymbals, etc.

Anyway, a new computer might be a possibility and I'm curious Jeff and Gruntersdad, having gone the way of Mac, would you still agree they are worth the higher cost (i.e., compared to a similarly equipped Windows-based machine)?

And Tolgapala, are you satisfied with your computer's performance now that you've made the upgrades you mentioned?

Thanks for the input guys,

spleen

Definitely worth it with the Mac. I've had mine for a year and three months and I've never, ever been happier with any system I've used. I use it as a general computer and as an audio editing facility and it's great.

Mediocrefunkybeat said:

Definitely worth it with the Mac. I've had mine for a year and three months and I've never, ever been happier with any system I've used. I use it as a general computer and as an audio editing facility and it's great.

Click to expand...

Hey MFB,

Thanks for the feedback! If you don't mind, which do you have and what are the specs? Also, do you use yours for e-drumming as well?

Thanks!

spleen

hi all!

well i actually had serious doubts before investing on a new computer system whether it should be a mac or a windows powered pc and checked my options carefully before buying my recent system. and for sure my answer is a yes, i am satisfied with the performance. if you are looking for a reasonably economic solution for a home recording system i strongly recommend investing money on a pc. it really has not let me down in terms of realtime triggering/monitoring(playback)/recording. if you happen to have a high performance computer you really do not have to worry that much about whether your sound card is a low latency sound interface or not.

i have been asking a lot about the very same issue and fortunately i happen to know some very proficient engineers&producers that are also using performance pcs on a daily basis that gave me advice of the optimum configuration. i am not a great fan of pcs and i am very well aware of the benefits of using a mac (performancewise compared to a pc) but most of the time economics come first as mr.spleen have elegantly put.

there is no chance of having a mac for $980 plus tax and that is almost the exact amount that i have spent for a seriously decent performance pc including two 19" wide tft screens for working more efficiently.

i have to mention aside from the board and the cpu, the amount of ram and it's clockspeed is the very parameter that drives the performance. do not purchase rams with clock speeds lower than 800MHz. 2gigs of ram will do the job for starters. when your needs and rig grow you can always upgrade it to the maximum that your motherboard supports.

a stable running computer system is important and it is for sure that you would regret it if you start cutting corners to save a few dollars but that also doesn't necessarily mean that we should piss our wives off for spending a lot when we could have spent a lot more reasonably.

i strongly recommend modern drummer magazine's jan 2008 issue including an article about vst drumming by john emrich.

cheers!

tolgapala said:

Muse receptor is an awesome solution to bypass the computer in terms of it's performance and being standalone but if you don't need those samples and features with you on stage or if you are not touring a lot, i don't quite see the necessity to invest $2500-3000 to a midi host.

So anyway i think there is some good videos you might be interested in. I am including the urls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCVkBP4O0LU - about bfd, muse receptor and drumkat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-riu6QZ7xE - about bfd and zendrum and guru
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roLX4ZW2Ldk - the namm 2008 showcase i was talking about

Cheers!

Click to expand...

i am quoting myself weirdly enough...

spleen said:

Hey MFB,

Thanks for the feedback! If you don't mind, which do you have and what are the specs? Also, do you use yours for e-drumming as well?

Thanks!

spleen

Click to expand...

I have one of the first-generation Intel Duo Core iMacs (late 2006). 2.0Ghz Processor with 1GB RAM, 150GB HDD and a 20" Screen. I'm actually running a dual-screen setup right now which took precisely one minute to set up. Buy the right lead, plug it into the designated output, then plug it into the other monitor. Sorted.

I don't actually do much virtual drumming, but I've done all sorts of other things on this computer including some fairly intense sampling work and I have run MIDI drums before although it's not something that I like doing or like programming. Luckily right now I'm working in the ambient field which doesn't have much in terms of percussion and anyway I tend to record audio more onto mine. Right now I'm using Logic Express 7.0 (I could buy the new Logic Studio 8 when I have the money, I use it at college and it's excellent) which is really very good indeed. Right now I'm in the process of recording a band's EP for them, which I may link if and when I get recordings I'm happy with. Sooner or later I'm going to have to record their drummer's Roland Kit, so I'll give you more feedback when that comes.

What's astounded me is that you really don't tend to notice the computer. It just works and you never feel like you have to switch it on and wait for it to start working. Although mine 'only' has 1GB of RAM it's never felt underpowered, although another gig would perhaps make it a little faster, but it's very fast as it is. This isn't even the most up-to-date Mac either, it's got the old OSX and it's been superseeded by subsequent generations; but I don't feel the need or want to upgrade.

tolgapala said:

hi all!

well i actually had serious doubts before investing on a new computer system whether it should be a mac or a windows powered pc and checked my options carefully before buying my recent system. and for sure my answer is a yes, i am satisfied with the performance. if you are looking for a reasonably economic solution for a home recording system i strongly recommend investing money on a pc. it really has not let me down in terms of realtime triggering/monitoring(playback)/recording. if you happen to have a high performance computer you really do not have to worry that much about whether your sound card is a low latency sound interface or not.

i have been asking a lot about the very same issue and fortunately i happen to know some very proficient engineers&producers that are also using performance pcs on a daily basis that gave me advice of the optimum configuration. i am not a great fan of pcs and i am very well aware of the benefits of using a mac (performancewise compared to a pc) but most of the time economics come first as mr.spleen have elegantly put.

there is no chance of having a mac for $980 plus tax and that is almost the exact amount that i have spent for a seriously decent performance pc including two 19" wide tft screens for working more efficiently.

i have to mention aside from the board and the cpu, the amount of ram and it's clockspeed is the very parameter that drives the performance. do not purchase rams with clock speeds lower than 800MHz. 2gigs of ram will do the job for starters. when your needs and rig grow you can always upgrade it to the maximum that your motherboard supports.

a stable running computer system is important and it is for sure that you would regret it if you start cutting corners to save a few dollars but that also doesn't necessarily mean that we should piss our wives off for spending a lot when we could have spent a lot more reasonably.

i strongly recommend modern drummer magazine's jan 2008 issue including an article about vst drumming by john emrich.

cheers!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the rundown tolgapala! The information is helpful and I'm impressed that you were able to put together your system for $980 plus tax. Very cool indeed.

And yes, I did read that article in Modern Drummer--that's actually what got me interested in the Muse Receptor! I did see someone selling one for a great price on the V-Drums forum a while back--unfortunately, I didn't have the extra cash at the time to take advantage of the deal. ) :

thanks again,

spleen

I've been thinking of VST recently b/c I have grown to despise Roland and want to work around using my overpriced module.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of info out there for MIDI drumming. So I'm not really clear what the best investments would be to get into this. Right now I have everything plugged into my just-barely-functional SoundBlaster MIDI port (edrums -> Roland TD-20 -> SoundBlaster MIDI board). 'Monitored' triggering is understandably delayed, about 0.5-1 second. Gets worse if I try to record while playing.

Can anybody give an idea of what basic equipment would be necessary to turn an average PC into a 'drum module' capable of live monitoring with no delay? For example I know there are devices like the Alesis Trigger I/O that take edrums as inputs and convert that to MIDI or USB, but I don't know what people think of it. There's the Megadrum module you can make yourself but that requires some serious EE knowledge.

And there's something I don't understand about both: will I still need to buy a high-end MIDI-capable soundcard to use either? And is there any solution out there that handles stuff like hi-hat variation or position sensing?

Mediocrefunkybeat said:

I have one of the first-generation Intel Duo Core iMacs (late 2006). 2.0Ghz Processor with 1GB RAM, 150GB HDD and a 20" Screen. I'm actually running a dual-screen setup right now which took precisely one minute to set up. Buy the right lead, plug it into the designated output, then plug it into the other monitor. Sorted.

I don't actually do much virtual drumming, but I've done all sorts of other things on this computer including some fairly intense sampling work and I have run MIDI drums before although it's not something that I like doing or like programming. Luckily right now I'm working in the ambient field which doesn't have much in terms of percussion and anyway I tend to record audio more onto mine. Right now I'm using Logic Express 7.0 (I could buy the new Logic Studio 8 when I have the money, I use it at college and it's excellent) which is really very good indeed. Right now I'm in the process of recording a band's EP for them, which I may link if and when I get recordings I'm happy with. Sooner or later I'm going to have to record their drummer's Roland Kit, so I'll give you more feedback when that comes.

What's astounded me is that you really don't tend to notice the computer. It just works and you never feel like you have to switch it on and wait for it to start working. Although mine 'only' has 1GB of RAM it's never felt underpowered, although another gig would perhaps make it a little faster, but it's very fast as it is. This isn't even the most up-to-date Mac either, it's got the old OSX and it's been superseeded by subsequent generations; but I don't feel the need or want to upgrade.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info MFB! You know, I've seldom heard a Mac user say anything negative about them and I like how you said that "you really don't tend to notice the computer." Maybe it's just me, but it seems like the people who are most happy with their PC rigs are guys that have to customize the components to optimize performance. But based on tolgapala's response, this can apparently be done for a very reasonable price, a prospect that really appeals to the cheap b@$t@rd in me!

Anyway, thanks again for the feedback--please let us know if you decide to post some of your tracks, as I'd like to check them out.

spleen

Well, if brand appearance isn't a concern but cost is, you can build yourself a mac (or more appropriatley, a hac) if you know what you're doing with computers. I've seen guides that build a decent mac based system for around $400. And then you can either buy the OS at an Apple store, or whatever other method, though if you're already kind of screwing them, you should at least give them a couple dollars imo.
I definitley find macs to be far and away the better system for audio, video, and related apps. I would take them any day- you WILL have Windows crash at least once on an important audio file, and corrupt its backup and you'll have to start it all over (personal experience count: 3 times)

As for VST, I'm just starting to really get into, but its quite fascinating. Normally I've just relied on the plugins and decent mics, or just using directs from my Roland, but I am discovering that it is much easier and more fun to work with VST software

spleen said:

Great thread gentlemen!

I've long been interested in and involved in (to some degree) the electronic side of drumming and I would absolutely love to buy a Muse Receptor. However, Mrs. Spleen would not be fond of me shelling out that kind of cash right now (can you believe it????), especially since I've spent lots of money over the past year on new drums, cymbals, etc.

Anyway, a new computer might be a possibility and I'm curious Jeff and Gruntersdad, having gone the way of Mac, would you still agree they are worth the higher cost (i.e., compared to a similarly equipped Windows-based machine)?

And Tolgapala, are you satisfied with your computer's performance now that you've made the upgrades you mentioned?

Thanks for the input guys,

spleen

Click to expand...

This is my second one, and I am more than happy. Expensive yes, but they don't come loaded with tons of software that you will never use. I had a PC for 8 years, one Gateway and one Dell. The machines were ok but windows is a joke compared to OS X, in my opinion. I love Garage Band, and the fact that so many applications are so easy to download and install it is amazing.

I'm a recent Mac convert; played my first gig with my macbook and M-audio Axiom 25 keys next to my drums last monday, and was very happy with the results. Our bassist also uses a Macbook for his keyboards and midi footpedals- we're both running "Mainstage."

I haven't really explored it for drumming yet, but I'm curious to. Once or twice, we ran my V-drums through Logic in the studio and tried some of the VST applications. It mapped out pretty well, but without a really healthy application (like DFH or something) it fell a little short.
I hope to explore it more, but have been leaning back towards acoustic drums for performing lately.

I think the Axiom line of keyboard controllers is pretty nice. My bassist has the full-size unit and really likes it. The appeal of the 25 key small model, to me, was the drum pads-
I really want to dig in and see if I can incorporate them while playing live. So far I've only been playing left-hand keys while drumming, but I think this unit could be pretty convenient for covering multiple parts during a show. I originally tried one of those Oxygen 8 units, but it wasn't compatible with the Mac Leopard OS



Also REALLY enjoying using Macs now; for years I used PCs, and even built and repaired them for a while, but I am taking to the Mac pretty quickly- very intuitive and transparent, as mentioned elsewhere.