Girl drummers

I think there are, but almost always a positive aspect of female drummers. Less testosterone is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Almost every female drummer I meet places a far greater emphasis on the song, & is often far better at using dynamics to express rather than relying on flash. To sum up, I think most female drummers, at least the ones who play well, are less selfish in their approach to the instrument.

let me start by saying, that prick who laughed in your face is a turd of a human. He will reap the benefits of his own prejudice for sure.

Regarding playing in heals. To me, such players are obviously seeking to place a concentration on their femininity. They're shooting for a certain audience, & looking to amass hits primarily on that basis. You can spot that vibe a mile off. Smiles to camera, hair flicking, low cut top, etc, etc. Although that may do them some good on the surface, I don't think it helps their case as a musician to be taken seriously, & it certainly feeds the stereo typing of a gender in drumming. I'm as red blooded as the next guy, but there's a time & a place for that, & it's not behind a kit.

If I'd play in a low cut top, I'd be afraid my boobs will pop out during playing... not that I'm playing that wild, but you never know! It's all about practicality for me.
 
If I'd play in a low cut top, I'd be afraid my boobs will pop out during playing... not that I'm playing that wild, but you never know! It's all about practicality for me.
Although such an accident would prove extremely popular on youtube, it's absolutely heading in a bad direction, as per my previous post. Practicality is a good way forward. Being comfortable is important, especially during a long gig. The least distractions, the better.
 
Then in in walks this person with her family and an entourage of at least 10 people all circling her like bodyguards. Believe it or not she was wearing sunglasses and waving to all of us.
Hype & delusion aren't gender specific, but perceived "novelty" can often be the catalyst.

Regrettably, we live in an era of faux celebrity feeding instant gratification. That's such a shame, as it takes opportunities away from those with something more wholesome to offer.
 
While this story is very entertaining and quite shocking at the same time, I'm not convinced
that there is a causal connection between this behavior and the fact that she is female. I
mean of course she behaved like that kind of girls would, but she could have been male
and behave like that kind of boys would.

So certainly a relevant experience for you that you are reminded of everytime you see
"girl drummer", but probably not too much applicable to "girl drummers" in general I guess.
 
Here's what I don't get, why is it a crime to want to appear feminine and be a good drummer?. Lord knows I'm a girly girl, look at my avatar, but something like that pic shouldn't take away from my drumming. Just because a girl wants t play in heels or look good while she plays for an audience doesn't mean her playing suffers. If the way she looks closes your ears, that's your prejudice and problem, not hers. A good drummer is a good drummer, period.
 
Here's what I don't get, why is it a crime to want to appear feminine and be a good drummer?. Lord knows I'm a girly girl, look at my avatar, but something like that pic shouldn't take away from my drumming. Just because a girl wants t play in heels or look good while she plays for an audience doesn't mean her playing suffers. If the way she looks closes your ears, that's your prejudice and problem, not hers. A good drummer is a good drummer, period.
I like that! (And I like your girly look :)!)
 
Here's what I don't get, why is it a crime to want to appear feminine and be a good drummer?. Lord knows I'm a girly girl, look at my avatar, but something like that pic shouldn't take away from my drumming. Just because a girl wants t play in heels or look good while she plays for an audience doesn't mean her playing suffers. If the way she looks closes your ears, that's your prejudice and problem, not hers. A good drummer is a good drummer, period.

Nothing. There is nothing wrong with it. In fact, I believe this is the consensus of most of the members here. It makes sense. But I feel that those who play these cards, aren't interested in becoming a member of a community, rather than get hits on youtube, or photos in a magazine.

It is all too rare. If it happens in front of me - I'll buy you a drink, then tell war stories.

We all appreciate good drummers (competition, inspiration, entertainment, pure musical enjoyment).

The issue we see as qualifiers (or self-designated restrictions), this is not instrument specific, or gender specific, nor is it just music, but life in general.
 
Yeah, Jasper, getting back to your original point I think I agree with you. Women are gonna stand out because it is still relatively unusual to see a female behind the drums and therefore garner more attention. That and they are better to look at. Well, usually anyway. It's rarer still to see a REALLY GREAT female drummer, too. Not for any reason other than there are less of us around.
Exactly!

And yes, it is MUCH more enjoyable watching a female musician who is GOOD at her instrument. It is like Heaven on Earth.
Jasper, no one's arguing against facts, just questioning some of your other comments, like:



I'm a rather ordinary female drummer who would seemingly prove your point. Yet I still can't see the genetics in it - not with drums, not with any instrument. Music is one of the most gender neutral things you can do. Certainly at school the guys on the footy team won't think of the guys in the music room as macho.

Yet, most musicians are male, apart from maybe orchestras. I think the most important reason behind this is that women aren't encouraged to play instruments - we are supposed to sing and dance and look pretty and poised for the guys. While some men dig sweaty Amazons (fortunately), princesses are far more in demand ... and a proper lady does not chuck a spread around a snare drum and get all boisterous and sweaty on the drum kit!

The other reason major reason is that gigging and motherhood are an especially tricky juggle.

It's possible that there may be some minor tendency differences between women and men on the way we play the drums, but I can't see how there could be an aptitude difference. It's environmental.
Wonderful perspective! BUT - I wasn't implying an aptitude difference, but rather merely suggesting that the urge to beat things is an aggressive feature that is normally attributed to the hunter - wondering if there are hormonal differences that activate different triggers in the brain when stimulated, combined with physical traits such as muscular structure. Clearly there are traits defined as either normally masculine or feminine, but that doesn't define whether a man or woman should have either one.

I mean - we all start out as female, and the differences between gender is hormonal from the very beginning. I'm sure it would be interesting to learn that there is a 'nature' aspect of the reason we gravitate towards music in general, and then more specifically - drums.
 
On another note - there was an annoying story about a (supposed) musician using tactics unrelated to music to promote one's self during a competition. It was a well told story, but clearly the party involved would be embarrassed to read it.

I was going to respond to it, only to notice it has been removed.

What happened?

My comments would have addressed the point that I believe because she was a female, with a moderate display of ability, someone saw this as a cash cow, invested money in the entourage, and hoped to reap the benefits. She was nothing more than marionette. It is a shame really.

To add the controversy, and this discussion - I believe this situation is a direct result of the topic we are discussing.
 
Nothing. There is nothing wrong with it. In fact, I believe this is the consensus of most of the members here. It makes sense. But I feel that those who play these cards, aren't interested in becoming a member of a community, rather than get hits on youtube, or photos in a magazine.

That's a new one on me. I've never heard of the “being female and good looking” card. I guess if they ugly themselves up before hitting the stage that would sit better with you? That should go over well.

I guess I need to introduce you to something you've never heard of, which I like to call “show” business. I hear that for participants (known as “performers”), getting their videos watched and getting their photo in the press are actually good things. It's known as “publicity” and these so-called PER-FOR-MERS (excuse me, I sometimes over-enunciate when pronouncing exotic words) actually use it to advance their “careers.”

Seriously, community? WITF are you talking about?
 
Regarding playing in heals. To me, such players are obviously seeking to place a concentration on their femininity. They're shooting for a certain audience, & looking to amass hits primarily on that basis. You can spot that vibe a mile off. Smiles to camera, hair flicking, low cut top, etc, etc.

Playing in "heals" - nice Freudian slip! I won't even wear heels to weddings and funerals these days let alone when trying to operate pedals. I take off flat sandals before driving, let alone heels. (Funny thing, it's illegal to drive with bare feet but that's how I feel the most control, same with hats and kick).

There's a clip on YT with Sheila E ripping off a solo while wearing a spangly mini dress and heels. How can she play so well in party clothes? That's part of the shtick. How did she do it?

Whatever, as Mary said, girly girls don't feel right unless they're spruced up to some extent. I personally go for comfort over glamour every time but, then again, I'm growing old with a dog.

:)
 
This thread has been the forum equivalent of watching a slow-motion car wreck on an icy road over... and over... and over.
 
Maybe there's something wrong with me but I don't see a problem with messy threads like this. There will always be a clash between Disturbers of The Peace and Enforcers of Standards (and those in between) if there is a sniff of gender, economics, religion, guns, sexuality, jazz and double bass drum pedals etc.

The only problem is that some interesting objective information and ideas can be glossed over because people tend to be captivated by conflict, eg. Karls' drumming grandmother, physiology, cultural observations ...
 
That's a new one on me. I've never heard of the “being female and good looking” card. I guess if they ugly themselves up before hitting the stage that would sit better with you? That should go over well.

I guess I need to introduce you to something you've never heard of, which I like to call “show” business. I hear that for participants (known as “performers”), getting their videos watched and getting their photo in the press are actually good things. It's known as “publicity” and these so-called PER-FOR-MERS (excuse me, I sometimes over-enunciate when pronouncing exotic words) actually use it to advance their “careers.”

Seriously, community? WITF are you talking about?
I believe you've misinterpreted my point. It's one thing to say - drummer, it's another to self-advertise - 'Girl Drummer'. Two completely different qualifiers.

There are women that drum, and market themselves as - good female drummers. What kind of classification is that? Are you good or not? What difference does it matter if you're female or not?

I believe in one thing such as press, but if you saw the post in which I commented (which was removed), you'd probably take these words in the correct context. Unfortunately, this did not happen.
Oh, and does anyone know of a good DRUMMING FORUM on line? I've got some talented female students who want to read about drumming, and I don't need to subject them to a bunch of off topic sexist GARBAGE. Thanks.
The people who post the vids and then title them "Girl Drummers (for their age)" are the ones who are sexist. You should get them to read threads like this - and they should learn that if they want to be recognized as a drummer, they should pursue their talents, and not rely on their gender to self-promote.
 
I believe you've misinterpreted my point. It's one thing to say - drummer, it's another to self-advertise - 'Girl Drummer'. Two completely different qualifiers.

There are women that drum, and market themselves as - good female drummers. What kind of classification is that? Are you good or not? What difference does it matter if you're female or not?

I believe in one thing such as press, but if you saw the post in which I commented (which was removed), you'd probably take these words in the correct context. Unfortunately, this did not happen.

I read everything you wrote, so this “context” shuck and jive is just an attempt to evade responsibility for your words. And whatever happened to “my observations indicate girl drummers suck”? That was your original point here. Why don't you defend that?

The people who post the vids and then title them "Girl Drummers (for their age)" are the ones who are sexist. You should get them to read threads like this - and they should learn that if they want to be recognized as a drummer, they should pursue their talents, and not rely on their gender to self-promote.

First, you need to ask somebody better informed than you what sexism is. Unless they're stealing publicity that would be going to you— or something, I don't pretend to know how you think— it's none of your business. As a mediocre amateur with no public presence as a musician whatsoever, you have no dog in this fight— and you sure as hell don't speak for me.

And who do you think you are, anyway, with this patronizing garbage? Their dad?

Oh, right:

I, admittedly, look at 'girl' drummers with a different set of expectations (sexism at its worst), not unlike a parent looking at a child's artwork compared to an accomplished artist, we are impressed because the standard is lower.
 
I love seeing girl drummers, just because there are not that many of them.

The ability of a female to generate interest with her looks is offset by the additional challenges that face girl drummers. It's still a male-dominated industry. So call it a draw. Can't do anything about it anyhow, most attractive females will utilize their looks in any type of stage career. As they should.

Cindy Blackman, Hillary Jones and Terry Lynne Carrington are respected female drummers that come to mind, and not for their looks. Although they are all very attractive.

"Male dominated industry" is an interesting subject. I have a very "Womens lib" daughter and we have had many in depth discussions on the subject. Is drumming male dominated because women drummers are excluded, or is it because women dont aspire to be drummers as much as males do?
Personally I doubt a woman would be excluded from a job in the music industry If she were a good enough musician. Please tell me I am not wrong.
 
I read everything you wrote, so this “context” shuck and jive is just an attempt to evade responsibility for your words. And whatever happened to “my observations indicate girl drummers suck”? That was your original point here. Why don't you defend that?



First, you need to ask somebody better informed than you what sexism is. Unless they're stealing publicity that would be going to you— or something, I don't pretend to know how you think— it's none of your business. As a mediocre amateur with no public presence as a musician whatsoever, you have no dog in this fight— and you sure as hell don't speak for me.

And who do you think you are, anyway, with this patronizing garbage? Their dad?

Oh, right:

Like I said - the post I responded to was deleted. So you missed it.

I can't help if you didn't understand that.

I, in no way, ever said that female drummers suck.

Two things I believe you will be unable to do:
#1 Quote me in saying that female drummers suck.
#2 Find the post in which I replied to, that you quoted out of context, because the post was deleted. I cannot help that you missed it.

If you can do either of those, I'd love to entertain this misleading path you seem to be on, or the relevance to the topic.

*edit: I'm not sure how you assumed that I was mediocre or amateur either. I simply stated I was nothing special, and I never hinted at my professional status. BUT - neither one of those qualifications exclude me from being able to discern a good musician from others. Some of the best ears in music can't play to save their lives.

**edit: Isn't the sexism you mentioned directly related to the first post of this thread? Looks like you and the OP are in line. Females announcing 'girl drummer', garnering more hits than male drummers, would fall in to that category, no?

How is what I'm suggesting is patronizing in any way? Is anything I'm saying inaccurate? I have not met 6 billion people to take an accurate analysis. I can only use my exposure to base my observations. My observations are accurate according to my perception. No amount of political correctness or other actions can change what has happened around me, and as much as I dislike the outcome, it will not stop me from voicing my interpretation of those observations.

To add - this topic has intrigued me (I've realized that I'm not the only one who sees this way - out of those who aren't out to make the world a fair place). I've asked a few people (without attempting to skew their responses, although hard to do, without asking the question properly) what they think about female drummers. The answers have been entertaining.
 
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"Male dominated industry" is an interesting subject. I have a very "Womens lib" daughter and we have had many in depth discussions on the subject. Is drumming male dominated because women drummers are excluded, or is it because women dont aspire to be drummers as much as males do?
Personally I doubt a woman would be excluded from a job in the music industry If she were a good enough musician. Please tell me I am not wrong.

I believe this is correct. In fact, I'll go further and say it may be easier, because they are female. I believe a woman has more of an ability to 'make it' in the music industry, because sales may increase, due to the novelty of a woman musician.

I would suggest there is absolutely NOTHING holding your daughter back from having a satisfying career as a musician, other than herself.

*edit: "or is it because women dont aspire to be drummers as much as males do?"

I believe this has a LOT to do with it. I've seen more than my fair share of females displaying a superior ability at a given challenge (at a similar level of experience) than their male counterparts, but have little or no desire to pursue it (such as professional driving, or shooting).
 
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