What do we think of drummers that deliberately play out of time?

Duck Tape

Platinum Member
Speaking of professional or famous drummers - I don't really know who else falls in this category, but Morgan Agren is one drummer who seems to play in time very well, but also out of time in some child like abstract style. He has played the most fantastic rhythms in many recordings but then sometimes he sounds like a kid banging on pots and pans. I have total confidence in him but I am not sure what I think of that. I do like hearing it but at the same time it's either over my head or hard to follow.

Here is an example of his playing that I'm sure many drummers would just hear as random doodling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1hmMBmnmLw

Skip to 17:40 to hear him play in time.

It's not a pocket/playing ahead thing... and I don't believe he's playing in a time signature or left of field subdivision like Virgil Donati would, it sounds more organic to me - I could be wrong. I'm not sure which category Chris Dave falls in either.

So what do you think? Does anyone else do it?
 
Sounds like he has a lot of cross referencing going on, Be-bop, prog, march, etc...

Jones, Williams, DeJohnette, Haynes, Husband, Bruford, Hidalgo, and a few others.
 
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Maybe prog musicians don't do rubato much, and that's why this sounds unusual? During the rubato section he sounds like a prog guy who's discovered Paul Motian-- he's mimicking the outward appearance of that type of playing, but it's a little stilted here.
 
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I'm not sure which category Chris Dave falls in either.

category ?

what you hear guys like Chris and Daru Jones doing where it sounds like they are out of time or bending time.... that is all 100% intentional

listen to Elvin Jones solo.... sure there are times when he is free... there are also many times where you would think he is free but if you analyze what he is playing you will find everything he is playing is completely in time and completely within a form just masterfully modulated ..... Tony Williams is another master of illusion, space, and placement both while soloing and playing time

this theme you are speaking of comes from guys like that
 
Answering the question posed by the thread title....I don't prefer it. I am not that good at following stuff that's avant garde-ish. I prefer to listen to a drum solo that I can latch onto time-wise. I find it kind of boring to hear a mish mash of "noise" without a rhythmic thread to hold on to. Now granted there might be a cloaked rhythmic thread, or an obscure form that goes right over my head. I need to be catered to in that respect. If I can't follow a solo, I quickly dismiss it. So drum solos have to be dumbed down to a certain extent for my own personal enjoyment of it. I'm not that advanced where I can listen to out of time drumming and get chills, it does not a thing for me. Being a master of time is impressive to me. Being such a master of time that the person can abandon the time....that's where I get lost. I don't want to be lost listening to a drum solo.

I realize that's a limiting way to be, but life is too short. Certain things I like, other things I don't. That's OK.
 
Depends on the music. I'm one of the seemingly small group of people who enjoys free jazz. Drummers like Sunny Murray, Rashied Ali, Han Bennink, Andrew Cyrille and Tony Oxley are masters of playing "elastic" time, where there is no strict adherence to timekeeping but a discernible underlying pulse. Of course, that's exactly what the music demands. It's not for everybody, but it's for me. And I think it's a real art form; one that I've practiced at but hardly mastered.
 
Do you like it 8mile?

Didn't know it was called rubato.

category ?

what you hear guys like Chris and Daru Jones doing where it sounds like they are out of time or bending time.... that is all 100% intentional

I hear Daru doing the cd skipping/Dilla thing, I have heard Chris seemingly go out of time with the band but I'm not sure if its free form or something that could be notated. Those were the categories I was trying to suggest.

Being a master of time is impressive to me. Being such a master of time that the person can abandon the time....that's where I get lost. I don't want to be lost listening to a drum solo.

Yeah, I get ya.. I am on the fence. I like to think that one day I am able to do this if I want but I know that you lose your audience with this stuff. Look at prog music - the watered down stuff is popular but the really brilliant snd innovative stuff is hardly noticed.
 
I like to think that one day I am able to do this if I want but I know that you lose your audience with this stuff. Look at prog music - the watered down stuff is popular but the really brilliant snd innovative stuff is hardly noticed.

Re: losing your audience. I live and die by the audience. Most audience members are not masters of musical time. When a musician is playing at a level that is way higher than the audience has the capability of comprehending, I'm sorry but IMO, that musician is not making the right musical choices for the situation. If it's a concert then people paid to see that, everything is cool. A nightclub however isn't the place to prove anyone's musical superiority, the audience's enjoyment is top priority. If you can manage to do both great, but if I had to pick one over the other, giving the audience a good time is way more preferable to proving to everyone that I am amazing, which I am not. That's pretty self centered, having to be amazing, at the expense of everything else. It's the exact opposite of what a person in that position should be going for. JMO here.
 
I think we could give people more credit. There are progressive bands today that reach casual listeners and they don't even notice that the music is odd time or complex. We shouldn't let the musically challenged hold us back either. Music has somehow evolved from much simpler beginnings and I don't see why it should be frozen in time.
 
Re: losing your audience. I live and die by the audience. Most audience members are not masters of musical time. When a musician is playing at a level that is way higher than the audience has the capability of comprehending, I'm sorry but IMO, that musician is not making the right musical choices for the situation. If it's a concert then people paid to see that, everything is cool. A nightclub however isn't the place to prove anyone's musical superiority, the audience's enjoyment is top priority. If you can manage to do both great, but if I had to pick one over the other, giving the audience a good time is way more preferable to proving to everyone that I am amazing, which I am not. That's pretty self centered, having to be amazing, at the expense of everything else. It's the exact opposite of what a person in that position should be going for. JMO here.

are you suggesting that Elvin, Tony, Jack DeJohnette, Eric Harland, Ari Hoenig, Jim Black, BIll Stewart on and on and on ... are losing their audience ?... or attempting to ?

that is an extremely silly stance in my opinion

none of these guys are trying to prove that they are amazing .... they are playing what they feel and reacting

so you want to tap you foot through a drum solo every time?

how amazingly boring and insulting to people who payed to see certain guys play the way they play

if you think guys play that way to trick the audience or lose the audience or show them how amazing they are I really don't know what to tell you
 
If I have to be told something is good then I generally don't like it - sorry this qualifies. Just my opinion....



MM
 
Can you expand on what offended you time wise? Seemed like they were all playing together to me. Admittedly, I thought it was very boring, and skipped around a lot, but I didn't hear anything to suggest "out of time" playing.
 
Speaking of professional or famous drummers - I don't really know who else falls in this category, but Morgan Agren is one drummer who seems to play in time very well, but also out of time in some child like abstract style. He has played the most fantastic rhythms in many recordings but then sometimes he sounds like a kid banging on pots and pans. I have total confidence in him but I am not sure what I think of that. I do like hearing it but at the same time it's either over my head or hard to follow.

Here is an example of his playing that I'm sure many drummers would just hear as random doodling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1hmMBmnmLw

Skip to 17:40 to hear him play in time.

It's not a pocket/playing ahead thing... and I don't believe he's playing in a time signature or left of field subdivision like Virgil Donati would, it sounds more organic to me - I could be wrong. I'm not sure which category Chris Dave falls in either.

So what do you think? Does anyone else do it?

Are you speaking of "playing free"? I do it all the time. The foundation of my entire groove is based on free playing; filling an area with rhythmic shapes that fit the circumstances.

There's much more to drumming than locking into a click track, much like there's more to painting and art than technical architectural drawings drawn to perfect scale. Freehand sketching has given us great works in life; everything from Rembrandt to Monet to Picasso, Escher and even Bugs Bunny (and Drinky Crow!). Playing everything to a quantized loop or structure can be effective in many ways but that takes the "art" out of it. And I'm all about the art. I'll take art over structure any day. It's more fun.
 
Yes, free of time. I rarely hear it.

I'm a bit confused about the last few posts and if I've missed something or misled it's 3am here and I'll deal with it tomorrow lol
 
are you suggesting that Elvin, Tony, Jack DeJohnette, Eric Harland, Ari Hoenig, Jim Black, BIll Stewart on and on and on ... are losing their audience ?... or attempting to ?

that is an extremely silly stance in my opinion

none of these guys are trying to prove that they are amazing .... they are playing what they feel and reacting

so you want to tap you foot through a drum solo every time?

how amazingly boring and insulting to people who payed to see certain guys play the way they play

if you think guys play that way to trick the audience or lose the audience or show them how amazing they are I really don't know what to tell you

I don't know how you extrapolated that from what I wrote. I can't compare what I do to what they do, and I am not suggesting anything you think I am. Those guys are masters, and people pay to see them do their thing in a concert or club situation. They specifically seek this type of music out. I'm not a master and people don't pay to see me do my thing. But I do my best to try and make it irresistible for them to dance. It's two different musical scenarios that are largely unrelated in my mind.

When all those guys play, is there much dancing going on? There's the difference right there. My job description is to groove so as to compel the audience members to dance. I wouldn't say that's their job description, that's why I separate the two.

I am nowhere near the level to appreciate such high flyers as the guys you mention, I am much closer to common audience members in terms of musical understanding. You imply that a drum solo that you can tap your feet to is too elementary. I disagree.

People get off on different things. And I have a right to embrace what you deem as a silly stance. Kind of condescending.
 
Yes, free of time. I rarely hear it.

I'm not sure that's 100% possible in a band setting. Maybe it's not as linear as you'd like; but the band seemed to know where things would happen based on cues in the piece. Any two or more things that happen in succession must be happening on some sort of time line.

If I play a solo, and each measure is in a different time sig, it's still a piece that's "in time" right? Even if I randomly move those parts away from each other, we're still creating "time" the way I look at it.
 
are you suggesting that Elvin, Tony, Jack DeJohnette, Eric Harland, Ari Hoenig, Jim Black, BIll Stewart on and on and on ... are losing their audience ?... or attempting to ?

that is an extremely silly stance in my opinion

none of these guys are trying to prove that they are amazing .... they are playing what they feel and reacting

so you want to tap you foot through a drum solo every time?

how amazingly boring and insulting to people who payed to see certain guys play the way they play

if you think guys play that way to trick the audience or lose the audience or show them how amazing they are I really don't know what to tell you

You have a lot of cool things to say and are an incredible drummer and I respect you as a player/pro but it is kind of off putting how anytime someone doesn't love one of the greats that you played with or knew that you go off on them like you did with Larry. I imagine this post is against the rules and will get removed but stop getting your panties in such a wad when someone doesn't love what you love or understand what you understand.

MM
 
Have to agree Tony. I don't think I've ever heard Tony Williams play his metric modulation/time manipulation licks and think that it is unmusical or didn't fit the situation or the musical moment happening at the time. If something fits the music, it fits. How many audience members actually understand, say, a quick John Bonham lick across the snare and toms? Does this mean that they would be unmusical or shouldn't be used? Being musical isn't always the same thing as minimalistic because bare bones minimalism doesn't fit all music.
 
You have a lot of cool things to say and are an incredible drummer and I respect you as a player/pro but it is kind of off putting how anytime someone doesn't love one of the greats that you played with or knew that you go off on them like you did with Larry. I imagine this post is against the rules and will get removed but stop getting your panties in such a wad when someone doesn't love what you love or understand what you understand.

MM

it is not my fault when you read something out of context

I keep my opinions about drumming so keep your opinions of me personally to yourself or we have a problem .... deal?

and uncle L is a big boy and we have known each other for a long time and share a mutual respect .... he doesn't need a bodyguard

this is a discussion
 
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