At what point does a triplet become running double bass?

I find that if I play triplets at high tempos, they seem to form sixteenths that are at a lower bpm.

Sort of like 12 hits within a bar at 300 bpm is equal to 16 hits within a bar at 225 bpm, if you'll pardon my baby theory.

This shouldn't happen, theoretically, I'm assuming. Or does it? It doesn't happen at lower tempos and so my issue screams poor technique at me.

At the same time, 240 bpm indicates one hits every 250 milliseconds. That's not a lot of time in between strokes, so is this a classic case of "time signature as a function of bpm", i.e. the faster I'm playing, the more time signatures (at lower bpm) I can span within a single bar. AKA my poor brain can't follow what's going on.

I'm really weak on theory, as I have unfortunately never been able to take time to go and learn from a teacher. Would love to... But got to eat to live, got to steal to eat... Tell you about it when I've got the time!

If it'll help troubleshoot, I'd be glad to put together a video to demonstrate what happens. No real worries about it other than a fear of being disciplined by "pro" musicians

I just hope my explanation doesn't make me sound like some kind of musical idiot. Gavin Harrison was talking about something like this in his latest post on his thread. Sort of like the theory of musical relativity, hah!

Reggae_Mangle said:

I find that if I play triplets at high tempos, they seem to form sixteenths that are at a lower bpm.

Sort of like 12 hits within a bar at 300 bpm is equal to 16 hits within a bar at 225 bpm, if you'll pardon my baby theory.

This shouldn't happen, theoretically, I'm assuming. Or does it? It doesn't happen at lower tempos and so my issue screams poor technique at me.

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Yes, there are exactly the same number of hits (3600) with 12 at 300bpm and 16 at 225bpm. Your feet are moving the exact same speed, no difference. The difference is where your hands are placed. If you keep 300bpm and do 16ths, your hit count will be at 4800. As long as your feet and techniques are able to pull off the speeds you speak of, going between triplets and sixteenths should be of no issue, and you will be able to both feel and hear the difference.

The best way to work on this kind of thing is to focus on "modulating" the rate of time.

In other words, STOP thinking of BPM's. Just throw that completely out of your mind. Start on a reasonably slow tempo like 85bpm. Play Quarter notes with the click. Move to 8th notes. Then 8th Triplets. 16ths... and so on. If you are wanting to go FASTER, learn how to modulate up to the next rate of notes in the same tempo. In fact, do all the odds as well, 5's, 7's, 9's etc. So basically: Quarter notes, 8th notes, 8th Trips, 16ths, 5's, 16th Trips, 7's, 32nds, 9's, etc. Then you are actually going 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.... and so on. This will get you there far faster and you'll have a better grasp of time that way. All these "metal dudes" and their obsession with BPM's is really silly, in my humble opinion. Trying to quantize the number of hits a second really has nothing to do with music and you're just gonna give yourself a headache.

Ian Ballard said:

All these "metal dudes" and their obsession with BPM's is really silly, in my humble opinion.

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Not really, if you are going to record with a click and your feet venture through numerous different time signatures in one song, then it helps considerably as far as figuring out what tempo to set your click at.

I completely agree with everything else you said though.

MrInsanePolack said:

Not really, if you are going to record with a click and your feet venture through numerous different time signatures in one song, then it helps considerably as far as figuring out what tempo to set your click at.

I completely agree with everything else you said though.

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I totally understand that, in a studio setting, if your band is playing a song at 200bpm, you have to be able to play 16ths or 8th trips at that tempo. However, you severely limit your ability to modulate and accurately work on time, if you only work on those super-high tempos.

Boy, I woke up this morning and thought to myself, "What the )(#@ did you write on drummerworld.com last night"

I was thinking about the whole thing though. It's sort of like the relation between playing 32s and one speed is equivalent to playing sixteenths at another.

Of course, with triplets, it's almost like another time signature (if you think of each set of three notes falling into one bar each). So on account of that space between notes, it shouldn't line up into a straight forward double bass pattern, in theory.

But practically, I suppose it is possible to play two notes on one foot and one on the other and arrive at a sixteenths double bass pattern. Which must be what I'm doing and confusing myself. Those can't be triplets. I've been doing it at 200 bpm and it sort of runs in an interesting way.

But playing nuances aside, I think as you play faster, there's just so much less the ear can take in of nuanced double bass playing. Perhaps I'm just unable to distinguish between a few milliseconds this way or that way.

On an related note, does anyone else ever hear some guy machinegun two notes or three notes together while playing some kind of blast in a song and think to himself, "he smeared those notes, that was awful". Are we the kinds of guys that ruined metal because we stood in the crowd with folded arms when the band was playing and told our friend standing next to us, "These guys suck. You heard the drummer screw up that beat?" At every concert?

And drifting even further off course, how exactly does one get girls to start screaming at your concert and cause other girls to start screaming so that one can ride the deadhead wave to popularity like Justin Beavis?

Reggae_Mangle said:

Of course, with triplets, it's almost like another time signature (if you think of each set of three notes falling into one bar each). So on account of that space between notes, it shouldn't line up into a straight forward double bass pattern, in theory.

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I now understand your initial thought on this. 3/4 and 6/8 are triplet signatures. It goes: 1, 2, 3 l 2, 2, 3 l 3, 2, 3 l 4, 2, 3 ll Yes you can run that continuously with your feet.

Reggae_Mangle said:

But practically, I suppose it is possible to play two notes on one foot and one on the other and arrive at a sixteenths double bass pattern. Which must be what I'm doing and confusing myself. Those can't be triplets. I've been doing it at 200 bpm and it sort of runs in an interesting way.

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The above can be played like this: R l r L r l R l r L r l
The capitol letters are where you play the hats or ride, the red is where you play the snare.

Reggae_Mangle said:

But playing nuances aside, I think as you play faster, there's just so much less the ear can take in of nuanced double bass playing. Perhaps I'm just unable to distinguish between a few milliseconds this way or that way.

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As you get more comfortable doing this, you will get faster and be able to distinguish the difference between both through sound and feel.

Reggae_Mangle said:

And drifting even further off course, how exactly does one get girls to start screaming at your concert and cause other girls to start screaming so that one can ride the deadhead wave to popularity like Justin Beavis?

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Not by playing metal!

I don't really understand what the actual question is but there seems to be confusion as to what a triplet is.

Assuming 4/4 time:

Quarter note: 1 note per beat
8th note: 2 per beat
8th note triplet: 3 per beat
16th note: 4 notes per beat.
16th note triplet: 6 per beat

I'm deliberately leaving out the higher odd note groupings because it would only confuse the issue.

The triplet never "becomes" anything else other than what it already is, a triplet. 3 notes per beat.

Hope this helps, if not, just ask for clarification and I will do my best.

Jeff Almeyda said:

I don't really understand what the actual question is but there seems to be confusion as to what a triplet is.

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I sensed a bit of confusion and felt that the attempt to quantize beats in a space of time, would be better directed towards mastering metric modulation at slow tempos, rather than the way the OP was approaching it.

I think what he is asking, and I am not 100% sure, is that if in 4/4 time you continually play triplets (3 notes evenly spaced) they take on a new feel. They swing. He mentioned playing them continuously, this is why I brought up 3/4 and 6/8. He also mentioned a lack of knowledge of theory. I think this is what he is getting at, just doesn't know how to explain it properly.

That was my take on it anyhow.

I didn't mean that 3/4 and 6/8 are triplets, I was trying to say that if you do a long string of triplets they have the same feel. I was half asleep when I wrote that and wasn't trying to confuse the issue.

This is what I think he is getting at. The attached file goes 2/4 trips (3/4 time), 2/4 16ths, 4/4 trips (6/8 time), and 4/4 16ths. They are all at the same bpm, and were all created with one file, no splicing involved. You can see why the 2/4 trips can be 3/4, and the 4/4 trips can be 6/8 if played individually.

And if my time signatures are wrong, please explain. I am just repeating how they were explained to me.

MrInsanePolack said:

This is what I think he is getting at. The attached file goes 2/4 trips (3/4 time), 2/4 16ths, 4/4 trips (6/8 time), and 4/4 16ths. They are all at the same bpm, and were all created with one file, no splicing involved. You can see why the 2/4 trips can be 3/4, and the 4/4 trips can be 6/8 if played individually.

And if my time signatures are wrong, please explain. I am just repeating how they were explained to me.

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It's just like how you can notate triplet figures in different ways, using dotted 8ths/16ths or simply writing the figure straight and adding a triplet indicator.

Ian Ballard said:

It's just like how you can notate triplet figures in different ways, using dotted 8ths/16ths or simply writing the figure straight and adding a triplet indicator.

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So a waltz: 1-and-uh, 2-and-uh, 3-and-uh, 4-and-uh.....repeat as necessary. This was explained to me as a 3/4. Would you note it that way, or as a 4/4 with triplets?

Musical notation can be quite confusing when you get into odd and complex times. I wish we had some kind of sound files that were definitive as reference points to make this easier on all of us when questions like the first post in this thread arise.

MrInsanePolack said:

So a waltz: 1-and-uh, 2-and-uh, 3-and-uh, 4-and-uh.....repeat as necessary..

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What you have written here is triplets in 4/4 (three beats per quarter note). Waltz time is 3/4......there is no 4 count.

1 2 3, 1 2 3

That doesn't mean you can't still subdivide to a triplet, but after "3 and uh" you'll go back to "1 and uh" to maintain a 3/4 time sig.

Pocket-full-of-gold said:

What you have written here is triplets in 4/4 (three beats per quarter note). Waltz time is 3/4......there is no 4 count.

1 2 3, 1 2 3

That doesn't mean you can't still subdivide to a triplet, but after "3 and uh" you'll go back to "1 and uh" to maintain a 3/4 time sig.

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Okay, that makes sense.

So disregarding what I listed as time signatures, the OP can still go between 16ths and triplets. He can do long strings of triplets with r l r, l r l. Regardless of speed. It is just a coordination issue, but is easily done with lots of practice.

MrInsanePolack said:

This is what I think he is getting at. The attached file goes 2/4 trips (3/4 time), 2/4 16ths, 4/4 trips (6/8 time), and 4/4 16ths. They are all at the same bpm, and were all created with one file, no splicing involved. You can see why the 2/4 trips can be 3/4, and the 4/4 trips can be 6/8 if played individually.

And if my time signatures are wrong, please explain. I am just repeating how they were explained to me.

Click to expand...

That's a very helpful clip, thank you. I feel like I have the issue sorted out in my mind, if not the words for it. Much appreciated, gents!

The clip I heard was all in 4/4 time.

The hi hat stays constant. Each hi hat hit is one beat. (Quarter note)

The bass drum pattern starts out as 8th note triplets (3 notes per beat) for 4 measures then moves to 16th notes (4 notes per beat) for four measures.
The snare is on 2 and 4.

It then goes back to the 8th note triplets followed by 16th notes as before. Again, 4 measures of each. This time the snare is on "3". This gives it a halftime feel.

The whole thing is then repeated.

Jeff Almeyda said:

The clip I heard was all in 4/4 time.

The hi hat stays constant. Each hi hat hit is one beat. (Quarter note)

The bass drum pattern starts out as 8th note triplets (3 notes per beat) for 4 measures then moves to 16th notes (4 notes per beat) for four measures.
The snare is on 2 and 4.

It then goes back to the 8th note triplets followed by 16th notes as before. Again, 4 measures of each. This time the snare is on "3". This gives it a halftime feel.

The whole thing is then repeated.

Click to expand...

Yeah I get why it is now, the 3/4 and 6/8 were not explained to me correctly. PFOG got me straightened out on that. Either way, it shows the OP how to go between triplets and 16ths, and how the sound and feel changes.

Jeff Almeyda said:

I don't really understand what the actual question is but there seems to be confusion as to what a triplet is.

Assuming 4/4 time:

Quarter note: 1 note per beat
8th note: 2 per beat
8th note triplet: 3 per beat
16th note: 4 notes per beat.
16th note triplet: 6 per beat

I'm deliberately leaving out the higher odd note groupings because it would only confuse the issue.

The triplet never "becomes" anything else other than what it already is, a triplet. 3 notes per beat.

Hope this helps, if not, just ask for clarification and I will do my best.

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Hmm I have to ask is a 16th note triplet equal to a sixtuplets and a six stroke roll?

BabyBob said:

Hmm I have to ask is a 16th note triplet equal to a sixtuplets and a six stroke roll?

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Yep. 16th note triplet = sextuplets (six notes). That is a note value subdivision.

A six stroke roll is a rudiment or sticking pattern that is six notes long. It's just one way of playing a sextuplet. Single stroke 6's are another. Double paradiddles and a paradiddle-diddles are two more examples.