Absolutist statements are always stupid.
Should I be annoyed?
- Thread starter rmac86
- Start date
TheElectricCompany
Senior Member
What is the lack of preparation? If it's a lack of preparation on my part for not saying no one can use my instrument, it's equally a lack of preparation on the other members for not declaring anyone's instrument is up for grab at any moment's notice.
I wouldn't want to be associated with people who would be so inconsiderate as to volunteer my personal possessions under the assumption I wouldn't mind or that my opinion and wishes are completely irrelevant. I don't believe it's about some greater good; it's a matter of principal. I would never ask that of someone and if someone expected it of me we I doubt we could have a healthy working relationship.
I don't see it as being any different than if a roommate loaned out your car and your bedroom while you were on vacation so that they could make a few extra bucks.
As far as the customer goes, there's a difference in making the customer happy and allowing them to walk all over you. I think this falls into the latter category.
opentune
Platinum Member
well the keyboardist or whomever didi the damage of course. My point was any of us can feel anyway we want about this, you don't need to be vindicated. As said over and over, some share, some don't .....and its all OK
This was spelled out on page one.
Performers should be prepared for gigs that require shared equipment, guest performers, sit-ins, shared-stages, shared merch tables, "can our Gfriends hang in the green room?", stage dancers, drunkards who want to sing, etc. None of these occurrences are uncommon, and it's always going to be inconvenient.
When it happens, as it did in the OPs instance, everyone should 'already' be on the same frequency. The discussion on what conditions need to be followed to say "yes" should have happened before the band decided to play it's first professional gig.
There's more to preparation than simply being a musician and playing an instrument. You have to be prepared to perform, socialize, haul gear, run a business, handle press, run sound, etc.
To illustrate this with an example in preparedness.... When I toured, I always had two SM58's. One was mine and always mine. The other was for anyone else. Consider it remarkable that I've played several thousand shows and don't have oral herpes, never got mono, never got strep... Never gave it to other performers as well. In our clubs, we disinfect mics between performers, sometimes a dozen times on open-mic and karaoke nights.
That little bit of preparedness, and similar initiatives, are what cultivates an ecosystem and keeps it healthy and profitable. Dead weight gets smart or gets cut. Preferably the former.
TheElectricCompany
Senior Member
I agree with you that it's prudent to have a written agreement between band members declaring how this and other situations will be handled. I don't, however, believe that just because the keyboard player put forth the issue first that everyone should be forced to go along with his approach. He acted unprofessionally when he agreed to let the other group play without consulting his own band, and again in the way he talked down his bandmate.
I see it all too often where people believe that if they state their idea first or the loudest then everyone must go along with it. My fiance and I am running into this problem constantly while trying to plan our wedding.
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When I toured, I used a spray bottle with ~10% H2O2 and a toothbrush. Unfortunately, the ball on my SM58 began to rust about a year into touring and had to be replaced.
In the clubs, we use a spray/mist bottle with isopropyl alcohol, because it disinfects and evaporates very quickly, so no rust.
I've walked up to mics where they've tried to be ecological and use vinegar.... NOPE! (I could see this benefiting bands that need to take their "mean face" to another level)
hippy chip
Silver Member
You share your Mic with random strangers without disinfecting? Can I borrow your toothbrush?
Dr_Watso
Platinum Member
interesting. Thanks! I was thinking about maybe hand sanitizer gel or something, or the alcohol wet-wipes, but thought the smell might be annoying.
Dr_Watso
Platinum Member
Being a drummer, I only touch the mic when I'm setting it up on the stand for other people in the aforementioned open mic to use. I have a very deep voice that's really only suitable for crooning anyway.
Just thinking it would be good to leave some type of sanitizer up there near the mic for those who are inclined to worry about it.
The keyboardist acted professionally by servicing the customer's request.
The keyboardist, and band, acted unprofessionally by not having it sorted ahead of time, and instead of sorting it out immediately afterward, causing an escalation of malcontent rather than saying, "Hey guys, this shouldn't have happened. How do we fix this so it isn't a problem next time?".
Or TLDR...
The keyboardist wasn't the problem, he was the symptom of the problem.
TheElectricCompany
Senior Member
Symptom of the problem or not, I believe the keyboardist exacerbated the issue.
At what point do you consider the customer's request too great? I have to think it's somewhere well before being told that your instruments are going to be used by complete strangers. In my mind that is unquestionably an unreasonable request. I'm assuming that as a band for hire they have some sort of written agreement with the customer, and even if that agreement doesn't explicitly state that no one is allowed to sit in on the show it shouldn't be up to the band to satisfy this particular request. Again, when does a request become unreasonable? Only when you've outlined that specific item as a no-go in your contract?
rant
The customer is NOT always right.
A customer does not have the right to come into a pre-contracted arrangement and demand adjustment.
They can ask but they may not be accommodated.
Any need for equipment usage outside of the original contract can be politely declined with the highest level of integrity...just like a customer cannot expect to come into a store, buy one item and expect to walk out with a bunch of other stuff as well without paying for it...especially things that are not for sale in the first place.
Allowing yourself to be walked on is a bad business practice and should not be done...and people with a problem with you working up to and within your contracted obligation are people you do not want to do business with.
I would rather have a reputation for being a clear, honest and respectful business man than one you can get stuff from for free.
It seems the music industry abounds with folks afraid to have anything bad said about them...even when the originator of the bad comment is specious...hence all of the overly positive unclear praise heaped on things in interviews...when you can clearly hear between the lines that the interview-ie would like to say..."it/he/she sucks".
Ahh...the politically correct beast and its machinations...and its manipulation in the business of music...
You ARE being taken financial advantage of ...when you supply a good or service for free and are manipulated into providing it.
/rant
The customer is NOT always right.
A customer does not have the right to come into a pre-contracted arrangement and demand adjustment.
They can ask but they may not be accommodated.
Any need for equipment usage outside of the original contract can be politely declined with the highest level of integrity...just like a customer cannot expect to come into a store, buy one item and expect to walk out with a bunch of other stuff as well without paying for it...especially things that are not for sale in the first place.
Allowing yourself to be walked on is a bad business practice and should not be done...and people with a problem with you working up to and within your contracted obligation are people you do not want to do business with.
I would rather have a reputation for being a clear, honest and respectful business man than one you can get stuff from for free.
It seems the music industry abounds with folks afraid to have anything bad said about them...even when the originator of the bad comment is specious...hence all of the overly positive unclear praise heaped on things in interviews...when you can clearly hear between the lines that the interview-ie would like to say..."it/he/she sucks".
Ahh...the politically correct beast and its machinations...and its manipulation in the business of music...
You ARE being taken financial advantage of ...when you supply a good or service for free and are manipulated into providing it.
/rant
Open flames. Bodily fluid exchanges. Unlubricated insertions. Edibles containing okra.... I'd have to find our old rider for the full list.
;-)
crispycritters
Senior Member
No, the keyboard guy was the problem - he should have informed the customer that his request wasn't part of the initial agreement and he would have to check with the band to see if they were willing to allow total strangers to use their equipment.
If you employ a tradesman you benefit from his craftsmanship - you don't get to use, or loan out his tools.
Mozart1220
Senior Member
OK, and HOW Pray tell, do we ENFORCE that when the time comes? I prefer to PREVENT the damage, rather than find ways to make up for it.
I stand with my statement. NO ONE uses my gear without MY express permission. PERIOD. Not a drum kit, not a guitar pick. I have been burned too many times.
Mozart1220
Senior Member
OK, here's another situation. Have you ever been in a band that is forming, or replacing a member, and had someone force someone on you that you could not tolerate?
I recently tried to form MY OWN BAND. I found a guitarist/vocalist I liked. I played bass and had a good drummer.
The other guitarist brought in a kid 15 years younger than us, which was fine, but his personality was intolerable. He was fine when practice started, but after 8 beers he became inflexible and obnoxious. He wanted to change the entire format of the band to HIS style of music, REFUSED to play half of what we'd already learned, and then sat AFTER playing LOUD while we were breaking up to go home.
I tried to explain to the guitarist I liked that he wasn't what I was looking for, that our personalities didn't match, and that I'd like to try out another guy I knew.
He kept bringing the kid back, so I broke up the entire thing, and haven't spoken to the guy I liked since.
This incident was one of the reasons I have given up "band" work. Too much hassle for too little reward (In this area where the music scene sucks anyway).
I recently tried to form MY OWN BAND. I found a guitarist/vocalist I liked. I played bass and had a good drummer.
The other guitarist brought in a kid 15 years younger than us, which was fine, but his personality was intolerable. He was fine when practice started, but after 8 beers he became inflexible and obnoxious. He wanted to change the entire format of the band to HIS style of music, REFUSED to play half of what we'd already learned, and then sat AFTER playing LOUD while we were breaking up to go home.
I tried to explain to the guitarist I liked that he wasn't what I was looking for, that our personalities didn't match, and that I'd like to try out another guy I knew.
He kept bringing the kid back, so I broke up the entire thing, and haven't spoken to the guy I liked since.
This incident was one of the reasons I have given up "band" work. Too much hassle for too little reward (In this area where the music scene sucks anyway).
And that's perfectly fine if you don't want to play at the subsequent weddings of his other two daughters. There are a bunch of DJ's sitting in the wings just waiting for bands to lose their shit over such trivial matters. I'll happily continue this conversation in the "Where did all the good gigs go?" thread.
TheElectricCompany
Senior Member
I don't understand how allowing complete strangers free access to your instrument is a trivial matter. Would you feel the same way if someone volunteered your car to their teenage child?
Because it's not free access, and it's not analogous to the teen/car example.
You control what they have access to, because you're prepared. You pull your three B8/ZBT backup cymbals out of the gig bag, the gnarly sticks that you have as last-resort-spares and were going to throw out anyway, let them know they can adjust the drum stool (only), you break it you buy it, and let them go to town.
After they're done, you tell them how great they were, laugh at their stupid jokes, etc. You then tell the father of the bride what a great time you and the band had, and how lovely and happy his daughter looked.
The only decision you should have to make on the fly is "chicken or fish".