Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Martin, I understand and relate to your frustration with "god of the gaps" thinking and superstition. I like rationalism the certainty with which some "rationalists" declare their beliefsabout reality strike me as irrational, given how much we don't know.

I have problems with a "rational" model that dismisses and ignores a massive chunk of reality that has profound effects on physical reality - subjective reality. The reality as experienced by trillions of organisms on Earth.

Bottom line is we don't know. It's fair to discount the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Zeus, Odin, etc, but how can we be certain about the nature of reality? We don't understand the conditions before the big bang, nor the nature of consciousness or its relationship to the brain (or the kind of consciousness experienced by animals which don't have brains). We have not yet unravelled the quantum mysteries, string theory is looking good but if proved opens up more riddles. What is 96% of the universe is comprised of other than placeholder labels of "dark matter" and "dark energy"? What is the shape of the universe? What happens at the singularity within black holes?

There is much cause and effect that goes on every moment - and it's happening to you, in you right now but we are not at all aware. The thing you're eating right now might be the trigger that starts or prevents a cancer. Or we might make a decision now that results in us meeting a future life partner. These events are knowable but since we don't know we ride our logic and instincts and hope for the best.

My favourite wild speculation of the week is that our next major breakthrough will be a deeper incorporation of information into our dimensional models. Apparently information is the one thing that isn't destroyed when stuff goes into a black hole - instead it remains at the event horizon. I suspect there will be interesting things found in relation to information and quantum entanglement.

We are all actually made of information, not matter. We are each temporary self-organising patterns. Proof of this is that we replace every cell in our bodies every 7 years - yet "we" persist. We are not made of matter, we ingest and organise matter to maintain ourselves but what makes us "us" is not matter.

I heard one philosopher liken consciousness to digestion - just another process of the body. At first I thought that off beam, given the prosaic nature of digestion and the much larger transformative power of consciousness. But there are similarities - both are processes in the body that largely act without our knowledge. One processes matter, the other processes information.

One thing we can all agree on is that over a lifetime both digestion and consciousness produce lots and lots of sh1t :) Fertiliser maybe? But of what?

// end excretion :)

Deep and provocative thinking. I especially like the concept that consciousness may be just another bodily process, like digestion. Freaky! Virtually all creatures have some kind of consciousness so this is interesting to consider. One thing that occurred to me: consider that bacteria are just cells adapted to living outside a body and multicelled organisms evolved as collections of highly specialized bacteria that rely on each other for safety, mobility, protection, nutrition, water, etc. So our real purpose in life could be nothing more than providing a place for single-celled organisms to thrive for a little while.

I agree the bottom line is we don't know. Like you, I don't fill the knowledge gap with jellyheaded speculation about UFOs, supernatural beings, conspiracies and other stuff. All the items you mentioned are knowable and understandable and it is possible that someday, we will have the answers.
 
put......down....the bong

haha ... the world would be a better place if more people picked it up once in a while :)

I was keen on space, the mind and strange phenomena from toddlerhood. I suppose most people grow out of it and don't allow themselves to feel the same wonder at the inherent strangeness of existence. For a long time I pretended to be grown up and be too sensible for such distractions, but it was a lie. I always dug it and now I'm retired ...

Deep and provocative thinking. I especially like the concept that consciousness may be just another bodily process, like digestion. Freaky! Virtually all creatures have some kind of consciousness so this is interesting to consider. One thing that occurred to me: consider that bacteria are just cells adapted to living outside a body and multicelled organisms evolved as collections of highly specialized bacteria that rely on each other for safety, mobility, protection, nutrition, water, etc. So our real purpose in life could be nothing more than providing a place for single-celled organisms to thrive for a little while.

I agree the bottom line is we don't know. Like you, I don't fill the knowledge gap with jellyheaded speculation about UFOs, supernatural beings, conspiracies and other stuff. All the items you mentioned are knowable and understandable and it is possible that someday, we will have the answers.

I think current understanding is that our multicellular bodies are the state of the art "survival machines" evolved by our genes over millions of years. The constant cat and mouse adaptations of predator and prey - starting with one bacteria having a slightly harder outer covering that survived better than its less protected peers. Dawkins's Selfish Gene is a great read and explains a lot of things.

My own guess is there's some kind of spooky woo woo behind the intentionality and drive of life - nothing that will contradict scientific observation, though. Having said that, here's a video that suggests that chemistry can create something that behaves like life www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpMR9jWzP8U
 
How can you truly have free will if you are confined to a life where we are bounded by societal pressures, culture, religion, politics and status quo? Only when these limitations are finally cast aside can you find true free will and expression of oneself. I don't think most people are wired for it and they can't live that way to be honest. They say ignorance is bliss, well, maybe it is. There's a lot to consider when finding one's way. Some people prefer waiting for the trailblazers to come back and say it's OK or it's not OK.

I think you're ready for a nudist beach.




...
 
My own guess is there's some kind of spooky woo woo behind the intentionality and drive of life - nothing that will contradict scientific observation, though.

That is a very intriguing thought. Reality is freaky enough as-is, right out of the box. There may well be something just beyond our perception, at once obvious and hidden, measurable and formless, unified and random. It might show up in things like the Fibronacci sequence, the universality of the speed of light, the omnipresence of hydrogen. Interesting to ponder - but avoid letting it seduce you into thinking something is really there, just because you want it to be.
 
Anon, you always manage to amaze me at the deepness and profoundnesss of your thoughts. The stuff you write here is oft times brilliant. You should collect it all and organize it into a book. I mean you already wrote it with what? 90,000 posts?
 
That is a very intriguing thought. Reality is freaky enough as-is, right out of the box. There may well be something just beyond our perception, at once obvious and hidden, measurable and formless, unified and random. It might show up in things like the Fibronacci sequence, the universality of the speed of light, the omnipresence of hydrogen. Interesting to ponder - but avoid letting it seduce you into thinking something is really there, just because you want it to be.

I get what you're saying, Martin. My gut feeling has long been that proto-consciousness is everywhere. I can't rationally defend the notion and I'm not sure I can tell the difference between my gut feelings and wishful thinking. Probably not Robinson Crusoe there. The experiments with proto-life in that Martin Hanczyc Ted Talk I posted are a massive eye-opener and I might rethink yet - the way those little chemical blobs behaved was amazing!

Anon, you always manage to amaze me at the deepness and profoundnesss of your thoughts. The stuff you write here is oft times brilliant. You should collect it all and organize it into a book. I mean you already wrote it with what? 90,000 posts?

If you enjoy the posts, Larry, then I've done my job! It's like playing - you throw something out there and hope some people relate to it.

I don't feel a great need to write a book (this week :). I'm satisfied that some hopefully cogent or useful thoughts have gone out into the meme pool.
 
If there is no free will, then why did Rush write a song about it? Gotcha!

For the same reason someone wrote a song about Peter Cotton tail.

Who's to say that this existence isn't some other world being's 8th grade science project.
 
For the same reason someone wrote a song about Peter Cotton tail.

Who's to say that this existence isn't some other world being's 8th grade science project.

Yes, Peter Cotton tail has been down the rabbit hole, He knows what's going on.

Maybe we are an alien science project. It's certainly not out of the realm of possibilities. If we knew about the extraterrestrials, then we would see that we are living in a fish bowl and there is a whole ocean out there with endless possibilities. If we are, then it's probably been done before. It is probably still too soon to know. Obviously, considering our reach in the galaxy, we are still a fledgling planet. We've barely reached the edge of the solar system.

Maybe a few things are pre-destined on a global scale, but we have, to an extent, the power and free will to steer the wheel in our own personal lives. I do believe in the randomness of things, and life isn't fair. Just like you can't tell a plant how to grow or how its branches should spread out. I don't know if that's a good metaphor, but there you go. I don't think a deity is involved in every good and bad thing that happens in a persons life.

But I do believe that there is an energy and a flow to this universe. Like when you put good energy into the universe, good energy will come back to you. The opposite is true too.
 
...But I do believe that there is an energy and a flow to this universe. Like when you put good energy into the universe, good energy will come back to you. The opposite is true too.

(Partially quoted, but not intended as selective quoting to change your meaning...will happily amend if I've stuffed your meaning.)

I have a far simpler take on this: optimistic people - those who have "positive energy" - seem to receive "positive energy" simply because their optimism allows them to focus on the positive aspects of whatever comes their way. The converse is true for miserable (rhymes with) bucks who treat every setback as some sort of personal catastrophe created by a malevolent universe out to get them back.
 
(Partially quoted, but not intended as selective quoting to change your meaning...will happily amend if I've stuffed your meaning.)

I have a far simpler take on this: optimistic people - those who have "positive energy" - seem to receive "positive energy" simply because their optimism allows them to focus on the positive aspects of whatever comes their way. The converse is true for miserable (rhymes with) bucks who treat every setback as some sort of personal catastrophe created by a malevolent universe out to get them back.

That's quite alright, and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

(that may be the first time I've used that word in written form)

I think humans are optimistic by nature, but we are also selfish, greedy and arrogant. We are also easily influenced by the energy around us. That is why one bad apple employee or coworker can make a whole team or band kinda miserable.

As far as the science project idea goes, I can imagine that, just like we plant vegetables in a garden, extraterrestrials (ET's) have planted a race on several different planets; each one being unique to its own atmospheric and cosmic circumstances. Some will grow up and flourish into their old age, some will perish due to catastrophic events, some will get eaten by bugs, some will destroy and poison themselves. Sometimes a race needs to be planted a couple or few times on a certain planet for it to take once and for all. Maybe the ET's are very interested in this planet because we are on the cusp of being harvested. Mwahahahaha!
 
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As far as the science project idea goes, I can imagine that, just like we plant vegetables in a garden, extraterrestrials (ET's) have planted a race on several different planets; each one being unique to its own atmospheric and cosmic circumstances. Some will grow up and flourish into their old age, some will perish due to catastrophic events, some will get eaten by bugs, some will destroy and poison themselves. Sometimes a race needs to be planted a couple or few times on a certain planet for it to take once and for all. Maybe the ET's are very interested in this planet because we are on the cusp of being harvested. Mwahahahaha!

Since this idea came up a few comments ago, I've been wondering what grade I'd give this ET 8th grader. Universe comes back with a C+, "Show your work!" all scrawled in red ink on the astral plane
 
I've been wondering what grade I'd give this ET 8th grader. Universe comes back with a C+, "Show your work!" all scrawled in red ink on the astral plane

I give that comment an A :)

I'm also unimpressed with the fact that everything in the universe is flying apart at an ever increasing speed. FFS we want a happy ending, not a gradual fade out into oblivion! Sorry, but that sucks.

So everything that's ever lived or existed dissipates completely and might as well have never existed? Not even quantum entanglement can save us when everything freezes to absolute zero. Game over. Please insert $1 to play again.

So ... Deity (aka alien student) this is your ending? Nothing? And you want praise for it?? Don't get me started on pain and suffering ...

Let's hope you learn from your mistakes. Here's the brief for your next project ... an everlasting multiverse underpinned and driven by an ocean of consciousness that exists outside of spacetime yet shapes it towards ever greater peace, harmony and integration.

And if I see any sign of back pain again I will deduct marks.
 
I give that comment an A :)

I'm also unimpressed with the fact that everything in the universe is flying apart at an ever increasing speed. FFS we want a happy ending, not a gradual fade out into oblivion! Sorry, but that sucks.

So everything that's ever lived or existed dissipates completely and might as well have never existed? Not even quantum entanglement can save us when everything freezes to absolute zero. Game over. Please insert $1 to play again.

So ... Deity (aka alien student) this is your ending? Nothing? And you want praise for it?? Don't get me started on pain and suffering ...

Let's hope you learn from your mistakes. Here's the brief for your next project ... an everlasting multiverse underpinned and driven by an ocean of consciousness that exists outside of spacetime yet shapes it towards ever greater peace, harmony and integration.

And if I see any sign of back pain again I will deduct marks.

I suppose the constant restlessness about wanting to understand everything - even to the point of making up fantastic theories involving multiverses or God - is what keeps people exploring, searching and testing. And also killing each other for refusing to believe someone's particular theory.

I do like science fiction. I think a great story would be about an alien race in the very last days of the universe (about 19 billion years from now), where energy and matter are fading quickly and everything is approaching absolute zero. They have the technology to travel anywhere in the universe fairly quickly and scavenge raw materials, energy and technology from dead or near-dead civilizations. Then they discover something that will reconstitute the Cosmic Egg, but of course result in their destruction.

What next after that?
 
I suppose the constant restlessness about wanting to understand everything - even to the point of making up fantastic theories involving multiverses or God - is what keeps people exploring, searching and testing. And also killing each other for refusing to believe someone's particular theory.

I do like science fiction. I think a great story would be about an alien race in the very last days of the universe (about 19 billion years from now), where energy and matter are fading quickly and everything is approaching absolute zero. They have the technology to travel anywhere in the universe fairly quickly and scavenge raw materials, energy and technology from dead or near-dead civilizations. Then they discover something that will reconstitute the Cosmic Egg, but of course result in their destruction.

What next after that?

There is an Isaac Asimov story that has a similar premise.

The last words in that story are "Let there be light!"
 
Entropy is cool!

James, you are a very naughty boy. Entropy is NOT cool - it is very, very nasty.

Entropy? Just say no.

There is an Isaac Asimov story that has a similar premise.

The last words in that story are "Let there be light!"

Which begs the question as to why no one else thought of just turning on the damn light ;-)

Seriously, what a mind Asimov had to create that story! (and well done, too, DMC, you have a talent for this) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question#Plot_summary
 
Certain things just don't happen. For example, magnetic lines of force will never cross one another, ever, no matter what.

"Don't cross the streams" - Dr Igon
"What happens if we cross the streams?" - Dr Venkman
"That could potentially be very bad." - Dr Igon
 
As far as the science project idea goes, I can imagine that, just like we plant vegetables in a garden, extraterrestrials (ET's) have planted a race on several different planets; each one being unique to its own atmospheric and cosmic circumstances. Some will grow up and flourish into their old age, some will perish due to catastrophic events, some will get eaten by bugs, some will destroy and poison themselves. Sometimes a race needs to be planted a couple or few times on a certain planet for it to take once and for all. Maybe the ET's are very interested in this planet because we are on the cusp of being harvested. Mwahahahaha!

"There is unrest in the forest/ and the creatures all have fled/ as the maples scream oppression/ and the oaks just shake their heads" - Rush
 
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