Drum machines have no soul?

I am adding a DM5 after 20 years of balking at electronics. I see the need in todays music to have the versality. I would have never thought I would be adding electronics to an acoustic kit, but here I am today doing just that.

I would never go 100% electronic but have to admit the tech. is really, really good. The dynamic articulation deal that Alesis has with their module is pretty remarkable. Not having the "feel" arguement is slowly becoming a thing of the past.

My advice for all drummers(for what it's worth) is to be as creative as you can and if that means adding a few electronics then so be it. We play not only for ourselves but to entertain other people, and we owe it to ourselves and them to maintain that level of creativity.
 
That's why I qualified my statement to programmed drum beats and not electronic drums. Because humans play electronic instruments. Programmed drum beats and programmed bass riffs just get tiringly repetitive. They're all over pop music right now, and honestly, I would just as soon listen to a dripping faucet as most drum programs I hear these days.

good point. there is a difference between a drummer playing electronic drums and programmed machines. I have no problem with drummers playing electronic drums because it's still a human playing and human nuances can be injected, not so with programmed beats. I call that push button music. I'm not talking about electronic music by the way.

Listen to a lot of the female (and some male) singers out there that use have drum machines in their music.I don't need to name any because it should be plain to anybody that listens. It's a dead generic sound that bores me to tears. That cheap hi-hat sound and that nauseating handclapping sound instead of a snare. It's so played out to me.

I understand plenty of music fans out there don't mind and probably can't hear the difference. That's fine for them, enjoy it. As a drummer it bothers me and I make no bones about that. Drum machines absolutely have no soul and will never groove like Garibaldi or Gadd or Colauita. I hate drums machines and if that makes me a narrow-minded buffoon I gladly accept that. On this issue I don't bend.
 
An instrument is an instrument if it is played by a human. A drum machine is programmed by the musician, but yet it was initially played (programmed) by a human.

Music is about expression through sound. What instrument you use to express yourself is as individual as the sound you can produce.

In a perfect world, which I choose not to live in, we would all have what we want when we want it. Until then, we make do with what we have. I am not waiting for the perfect world, I choose to play in the one we have.

If you want a drum machine because you like it, use it.
If you want a drum machine because you can't find a drummer, use it.

Your music isn't any better or worse for it. It is just your music.

I have many times employed electronic pads into my accoustic kit, and in some instances played an all electronic kit for performances because of the conveniences it afforded. (flexibility of sound, ease of mobility and set up, etc...) I have to laugh when someone who claims to be a musical purist objects. For instance, I was going to audition for a band a while back and I asked if I could bring my E kit for the audition since they didn't have one for me to play on there. I gave them pictures of my actual kit so they knew I had what I needed to play, and they refused stating that E drums aren't drums. Without fanfare or objection, I thanked them for their interest and reminded them that an E guitar is nothing different then an E Drum. Their loss....

So if it is what you want to use to express yourself musically, how can it be wrong or soulless?

We all started out with sticks and rocks, so if we choose to use something with more technology then that, aren't we selling out? LOL
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry but creating a beat on a machine and looping it doesn't work for me. Again, I am not talking about electronic drum kits, I am talking about DRUM MACHINES, push button gizmos. I've done studio recording with my bands and I played my kit as I normally do. I never did session work and had no desire to. I can only speak of what I did with my bands in the studio.

And it's not so much about being a purist, the sounds from drum machines don't please me. My bad.
 
...and reminded them that an E guitar is nothing different then an E Drum.

I have to disagree there...an electric guitar doesn't trigger samples. It amplifies the actual energy from the strings vibrating, in much the same way a close mic amplifies a drum.

All this is good when used well! Just because some people (maybe lots of people) use it badly doesn't mean it has no potential to be good. I don't think much more can be said than that.

PS: If you don't like drum machines, get hold of a basic DAW and try out programming some beats. It's a lot of fun! It might give you new ideas you can apply to your actual playing.
 
I think what sounds so bad in programmed repetitve loops versus actual playing is the lack of variety. Even though we as drummers can play the same basic beat through 90% or more of a song, we add variety in so many ways. How many of you guys hit the kick drum with the same velocity on every beat, or play your fills beat for beat at the same volume? We use inflections, we use ghost notes and we vary rythmic expressions at our own whim. This is called artistic expression. By programming drum patterns into music, we are killing that expression. Maybe there's ways to do all that with compuuter programming, I don't know, but I suspect by the time it takes to do it, you could have played it already on an acoustic or electric set.
 
I think what sounds so bad in programmed repetitve loops versus actual playing is the lack of variety. Even though we as drummers can play the same basic beat through 90% or more of a song, we add variety in so many ways. How many of you guys hit the kick drum with the same velocity on every beat, or play your fills beat for beat at the same volume? We use inflections, we use ghost notes and we vary rythmic expressions at our own whim. This is called artistic expression. By programming drum patterns into music, we are killing that expression. Maybe there's ways to do all that with compuuter programming, I don't know, but I suspect by the time it takes to do it, you could have played it already on an acoustic or electric set.

bingo!! and it is those inflections and ghost notes that give elasticity and realism to the drums and music. thanks for a great post westerner.
 
Some of us love them, some of us hate them , but lets face it ,they are here to stay in one way or another. Vintage Drum machines just like Vintage drums command a lot of respect and a price tag to match.
I'm really interested by the feeling drum machines seem to involk, there a lot of passionate haters as well as lovers.
I'm sure its just like when Dylan went electric and there were Cries of "Judas" from his folk following.
opinion and taste will be split which is surely what makes us human.

My two pence worth.Cheers
 
For those that think that drum machine loops are too mechanical and don't groove, then perhaps you are only thinking of some really bad music.

I think as drummers it's good to open ourselves up to lots of new ideas. Play with new technology and embrace it rather than dismiss it.
With one of my bands (we play live drum n bass - with live drums, bass, keys and samples) I play acoustic drums over a programmed track. The programmed track is set up in Pro Tools and has no kick or snare etc, but has some sounds it's not possible for me to play on my kit. I have a Roland SPD-S sample pad to the side of my snare and I use that to trigger some sounds, but there's still some top-end sounds and sub-bass etc that I can't get out of my kit, so I use a machine to create them, and the songs benefit from this.

I completely disagree that programmed drums don't groove. Programmed sounds can be added to samples etc to give them new life too. Just listen to anything The Neptunes have produced, or The Prodigy, Chemical Bros, Daft Punk etc etc.

examples:
Daft Punk - Robot Rock http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rBbasXXtrXw
LTJ Bukem - Watercolours http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MF_ctZ2M2Hs
Prodigy - Mindfields http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TwfhQGzhFpI
Prodigy - Spitfire http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iwFSklgSLvk
Chemical Bros - Block Rockin Beats http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1BVADNUyDZY
 
Learn from a computer, which is what a drum machine is. No, I don't think so. Not unless the music you want to make leads you in that direction. Even if it does, you're not learning from the machine, you're learning from who programs it.
It's like saying that you can learn from a hammer. You can learn from watching a human being use a hammer, but the tool itself has nothing to teach you, and whatever you learn from the tool is in how you appy what you've learned from others to your own concepts, through trial and error.

Well yes, sorry if I mislead you but I meant learning from the whole package; the human programming the machine. After all, you can't learn anything from a drumset sitting there with no drummer either. This is no different.

I agree with the arguments about ghost notes, etc though. They make up an aspect of our field that is irreplaceable. What you have to realize is that drum machines aren't meant to replace that feel or improvisation. It's just another factor that goes into deciding whether to use live drums or programmed ones. If you're looking for a very loose time feel, a drummer is the only way to go. However that's not always the case. Take for example Trent Reznor (of Nine Inch Nails), who uses a lot of programmed drums. He's just not looking for the inflections or traditional tones of live drums, and wants very strict time, so a drum machine makes the most sense.

If, however, you think that programmed drums are inherently too repetitive, then you need to give Aphex Twin a listen. A lame pattern or repetitive playing (or even that hated handclap - I agree) are without doubt the fault of the human behind the programming - not the machine.
 
For those that think that drum machine loops are too mechanical and don't groove, then perhaps you are only thinking of some really bad music.

I think as drummers it's good to open ourselves up to lots of new ideas. Play with new technology and embrace it rather than dismiss it.
With one of my bands (we play live drum n bass - with live drums, bass, keys and samples) I play acoustic drums over a programmed track. The programmed track is set up in Pro Tools and has no kick or snare etc, but has some sounds it's not possible for me to play on my kit. I have a Roland SPD-S sample pad to the side of my snare and I use that to trigger some sounds, but there's still some top-end sounds and sub-bass etc that I can't get out of my kit, so I use a machine to create them, and the songs benefit from this.

I completely disagree that programmed drums don't groove. Programmed sounds can be added to samples etc to give them new life too. Just listen to anything The Neptunes have produced, or The Prodigy, Chemical Bros, Daft Punk etc etc.

examples:
Daft Punk - Robot Rock http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rBbasXXtrXw
LTJ Bukem - Watercolours http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MF_ctZ2M2Hs
Prodigy - Mindfields http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TwfhQGzhFpI
Prodigy - Spitfire http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iwFSklgSLvk
Chemical Bros - Block Rockin Beats http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1BVADNUyDZY

that hit the nail on the head....both forms will be around....ALWAYS no matter what
im in love with vintage drum sets and live music like that, but im goin to see prodigy play in july!....you can like both of them equaly....neither is better in my opinion.....you just have to have the right situation for both of them.
 
Well I hope they have some soul, I just shipped one over to Iraq and will join it in a month. It was too hard to get my prized Maple Pearl Bass into a duffle bag. Everything has a purpose.

I heard an interview with one of the Guitar Players from James Brown. He was talking about Bootsy Collins, I think that is they guy with the Star Shaped Sunglasses. Anyway, he said" Now Bootsy, he could bang a stick on the ground and make it sound funky"

Guess beauty is in the eye.

John
 
Of course Thomas Lang & Dave Weckl have a soul!!!

.......a little too quantized, but a soul nevertheless.
 
Anyone who is dead set against the use of drum machines should listen to this, and ask themselves whether taking the drum machine away would make it groove more, or less.
 
Heh, I like drum machines (I even like Dave W!). I spent a year programming music in the 80s. Then our guitarist borrowed my sequencer and 4-track, skipped off interstate, developed habits and hocked them off. So much for that.

I tried a few times to emulate a human style of playing, and it takes a lot of effort to add human-like subtle variations. As mentioned earlier on the thread, grace notes are an issue, as is getting air in the hats. The closed hats were the only decent cymbal sound in the TR707 I used. If you avoid the cheesy aspects, or at least use them in a deliberate way, they can work out well. Of course, in electronica variation isn't usually an issue.

Has anyone tried using software drum machines or synths? If so, are there any you'd recommend?

Thx for the link PQ. I kept thinking of Deep Purple's Concerto for Big Band and Orchestra, but the JazRap is more fun.
 
Last edited:
You need to add real musicians to the mix to make the drum machines sound decent. However, most real musicians find it difficult to follow drum machines because the machines are so unforgiving. The musicians may think , in their mind, that they can groove with the machine, but they should record themselves jamming with the machine and take a close listen to the playback. Most will find that their timing isn't as good as they think and......the drum machine won't COVER for them.

Dan
 
Didn't this arguement/discussion start sometime back in the mid to late 70's. Still, plenty of musicians found work over the last 30 years. And cats like Chris Vrenna, Ken Wilson (Ginger Fish) and Matt Walker land gigs because they can play drums and program like monsters. Certain types will always need "a sound". whether it be acoustic or electronic. And with more triggers being used in "studio and live" applications, the middle ground becomes "less defined" all the time.

All True. Doesn't mean the machine has soul.... :)
 
The thing I can't get past is the actual sound that these things create. It's not...real. I don't even have to deal with the soul aspect because the sound alone they make is a dealbreaker for me. To all you people who like drum machines, I'd say don't get sucked into the vortex, as alluring as it is. Demand Genuine Sounds!
 
The thing I can't get past is the actual sound that these things create. It's not...real. I don't even have to deal with the soul aspect because the sound alone they make is a dealbreaker for me. To all you people who like drum machines, I'd say don't get sucked into the vortex, as alluring as it is. Demand Genuine Sounds!

So why is a separate series of sound palettes such a bad thing? And have you used any recent software at all?
 
Back
Top