Simon Phillips

Re: Can Simon play jazz?

He's working on it for sure but he's no master of the complex jazz ensemble language yet.

Well that's a pretty lofty statement. I very much doubt that Simon Phillips is making any claims that he's a "master of the complex jazz ensemble language." It looks to me that he just likes to play jazz.
Surely you don't consider yourself to be a master of the complex jazz ensemble language, do you?
How many jazz drummers could be considered to be masters of the complex jazz ensemble language? All of them, just because they play jazz? Is every jazz drummer on every jazz record or CD you own a master of the complex jazz ensemble language? Come on.
I don't buy the idea that it's necessary to study jazz for year after year before you can be considered a jazz musician. I think one is a jazz musician because that's the kind of music he plays.
I'm going to say something that's really going to cause a lot of people here to take umbrage. I just don't think that jazz can be all that hard to play. Obviously it's learnable or else nobody would know how to do it. I think jazz could benefit from lightening up a little. Saying that you must play the drums like Philly Joe Jones or you must play the trumpet like Clifford Brown or you must play the bass like Ron Carter, that's just setting up impossible goals to reach, and if everyone did do that then jazz would just be a music filled with imitators, not innovators.
But come to think of it...
You think that the jazz ensemble language should be complex. I don't think any kind of music should be or has to be anything other than what the creator of that music wants it to be.
Just my thoughts and observations, take it or leave it, no worries.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Well that's a pretty lofty statement. I very much doubt that Simon Phillips is making any claims that he's a "master of the complex jazz ensemble language." It looks to me that he just likes to play jazz.
Surely you don't consider yourself to be a master of the complex jazz ensemble language, do you?
How many jazz drummers could be considered to be masters of the complex jazz ensemble language? All of them, just because they play jazz? Is every jazz drummer on every jazz record or CD you own a master of the complex jazz ensemble language? Come on.
I don't buy the idea that it's necessary to study jazz for year after year before you can be considered a jazz musician. I think one is a jazz musician because that's the kind of music he plays.
I'm going to say something that's really going to cause a lot of people here to take umbrage. I just don't think that jazz can be all that hard to play. Obviously it's learnable or else nobody would know how to do it. I think jazz could benefit from lightening up a little. Saying that you must play the drums like Philly Joe Jones or you must play the trumpet like Clifford Brown or you must play the bass like Ron Carter, that's just setting up impossible goals to reach, and if everyone did do that then jazz would just be a music filled with imitators, not innovators.
But come to think of it...
You think that the jazz ensemble language should be complex. I don't think any kind of music should be or has to be anything other than what the creator of that music wants it to be.
Just my thoughts and observations, take it or leave it, no worries.


Learn the language, play the music.... I did and have for some 34 years now. My clips are out there for all to see in the playing section draw your own conclusions on where I stand as a veteran jazz player on the subject of which I speak........ mastering to me simply means covering all the elements and fundamentals needed to learn the music with a sense of depth and speaking it with your own voice after the fact.

Jazz does have a complex language all of its own but you can learn to speak it freely in a flowing relaxed conversational manner with liked minded musicians when you''ve done your homework on the subject. Not a lofty comment but basic musical common sense applied to everyone learning this or any other craft. If some important elements are missing the finished effect isn't totally covered, that's my point.

If you want to argue back and forth for the sake of argument on what makes for elements of jazz language or some basic common sense stuff applied to this music i've done my best.

I enjoyed the clip very much but if I want the real jazz deal i'll listen Tony, Elvin, Eric etc.. deliver all the important details in this type of ensemble setting needed to deliver it to the max to my "jazz" ears. Just me....
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Jazz is a language with many accents. I'd see Simon as being in a room of native jazz speakers and he was speaking jazz with a prog accent.

Monsieur Simon ... how do you zay it? ... may not 'ave zee same breadth of vocabulary in zat language, but some accents sound magnifique :)
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Unfair comparison really. Monk WAS a revolutionary jazz figure BUT he was coming from a very specific deeply rooted tradition that came before him in jazz to which he branched off of. Monk was THE master of syncopation' conterpoint in his writing and ensemble playing {soloing/comping} too don't forget. Certainly a "jazz based" musician his entire career but many didn't get Monk at the time it was going down.

Look at the way Ken hinted at it. Simon is obviously playing with a backup band of seasoned jazz pros. You can hear in their playing, I can. And like Ken said since he's playing in that specific format with these people playing off the same common "language" of music why not play more off the piano players syncopated comping figures and such rather than finishing phrases and such by leaning heavy on the downbeats of the bars instead missing the moment of the locking up on the buoyant extra push in the ensemble that could be happening as just one example worth pointing out. Doesn't sound like a new take on drum innovations or "my take on it" but more of lack of experience with a common jazz language and rules of engagement that seems better shared by the rest of the musicians playing the music on the stage during the tune other than the drummer in this case. He's working on it for sure but he's no master of the complex jazz ensemble language yet.

Just my thoughts and observations take it or leave it, no worries..........


Yes, exactly. These guys know what they are doing and Simon is the 'name.' How do I know that he hasn't studied post-bop drumming? Because the situation calls for the type of over the bar line syncopated playing that Stan is referencing. Simon is playing very routinely, which is what you play when you are not versed in the style. It is not innovative. As you become more versed in the style, you learn how to expand and free up the feel of the groove outside of a straight ride cymbal pattern with very predictable hits. It becomes the over the bar line-interactive phrasing associated with the great hard bop and post bop drummers mentioned. The fact these players can do this is the reason guys love their playing. They are the master of this style. It is no crime to emulate what they are doing.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Yes, exactly. These guys know what they are doing and Simon is the 'name.' How do I know that he hasn't studied post-bop drumming? Because the situation calls for the type of over the bar line syncopated playing that Stan is referencing. Simon is playing very routinely, which is what you play when you are not versed in the style. It is not innovative. As you become more versed in the style, you learn how to expand and free up the feel of the groove outside of a straight ride cymbal pattern with very predictable hits. It becomes the over the bar line-interactive phrasing associated with the great hard bop and post bop drummers mentioned. The fact these players can do this is the reason guys love their playing. They are the master of this style. It is no crime to emulate what they are doing.


Gotta fly to a gig but thanks Ken for adding more to this "uncomplex" discussion when it comes to covering certain essential basic elements heard in jazz drumming in a ensemble situation like the one posted.

Mastering again simply means knowing the language of your instrument in any given music at hand BEFORE extending on it.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Well that's a pretty lofty statement. I very much doubt that Simon Phillips is making any claims that he's a "master of the complex jazz ensemble language." It looks to me that he just likes to play jazz.
Surely you don't consider yourself to be a master of the complex jazz ensemble language, do you?
How many jazz drummers could be considered to be masters of the complex jazz ensemble language? All of them, just because they play jazz? Is every jazz drummer on every jazz record or CD you own a master of the complex jazz ensemble language? Come on.
I don't buy the idea that it's necessary to study jazz for year after year before you can be considered a jazz musician. I think one is a jazz musician because that's the kind of music he plays.
I'm going to say something that's really going to cause a lot of people here to take umbrage. I just don't think that jazz can be all that hard to play. Obviously it's learnable or else nobody would know how to do it. I think jazz could benefit from lightening up a little. Saying that you must play the drums like Philly Joe Jones or you must play the trumpet like Clifford Brown or you must play the bass like Ron Carter, that's just setting up impossible goals to reach, and if everyone did do that then jazz would just be a music filled with imitators, not innovators.
But come to think of it...
You think that the jazz ensemble language should be complex. I don't think any kind of music should be or has to be anything other than what the creator of that music wants it to be.
Just my thoughts and observations, take it or leave it, no worries.


Well Said!_________________________________________________________

J.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

How do I know that he hasn't studied post-bop drumming? Because the situation calls for the type of over the bar line syncopated playing that Stan is referencing.

No, you're just saying that it calls for that. Is that a rule, the "over the bar line syncopated" thing? Is everything in jazz drumming played exactly that way and that way only?
Maybe the guy who wrote that song didn't want Phillips to play over the bar line syncopated stuff.
Let's look at it another way. We have the song, the song that Simon Phillips played the drums on, and he played it the way he played. Would any and every "real" jazz drummer play the type of over the bar line syncopation that you're talking about in the way that you mean? Would, say, Ben Riley play it like that, or Shadow Wilson, or Pete La Roca, or Willie Jones? And if they didn't would they also be guilty of not having mastered the "complex jazz ensemble language?"
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Yes, they would. Shadow Wilson was dead even before this style emerged. Pete LaRocca plays in this style. Stan, can play in this style and has been for decades. I have been studying and playing in this style for a few years now and listening to it all my life. It's not rocket science. If someone is being innovative, then there is innovation. If someone is not, then there is no innovation. it is exactly as Stan said, if you are going to play in the style, you need to know that history of the style.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

if you are going to play in the style, you need to know that history of the style.

And you're quite sure that Simon Phillips does not know that history, is that correct?
"Shadow Wilson was dead even before this style emerged." Umm..we are talking about Shadow Wilson, right? Are you saying that he died too soon to be aquainted with over the bar line syncopated playing?
Maybe you need to brush up on your history of that style, because what he plays on "Thelonious Monk With John Coltrane at Carnegie Hall" sounds pretty convincing to me.
 
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Re: Can Simon play jazz?

if you are going to play in the style, you need to know that history of the style.

As a general rule and when it comes to a prog drummer playing with a group of jazzmen, sure. However, if that principle was absolute then a number of new styles and approaches would not have been be created. Most times naivete is not an asset, but as they say, "Out of the mouths of babes ...". Sometimes intuition and/or soul without a whole lot of historical grounding can lead to interesting approaches.

Punk
Brian Eno
Ornette Coleman
Jackson Pollock
The first bluesmen
Moe Tucker

Sorry if my comment seems too anal, Ken, and I'm aware that the above are exceptions rather than the rule. Just that your statement seems too absolute and blanket to me and would need qualifiers not to jar.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Actually, Eno has a big background in what he does. If you read a few of his articles...
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Yes, he was, but that doesn't make him musically naive. Far from it. You ought to read the 'Ambient Manifesto' in the front of 'Music for Airports'. There are a number of other works out there, I have a compilation of musical writings for my degree and he is heavily featured. Art guys often understand music far better than musicians - they have the 'outsider edge' and a lot of the thought processes are the same, especially from an aesthetic standpoint. Stockhausen has his parallels with Picasso, Van Gogh with Debussy. The same idea, two different fields.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Yes, he was, but that doesn't make him musically naive. Far from it. You ought to read the 'Ambient Manifesto' in the front of 'Music for Airports'. There are a number of other works out there, I have a compilation of musical writings for my degree and he is heavily featured. Art guys often understand music far better than musicians - they have the 'outsider edge' and a lot of the thought processes are the same, especially from an aesthetic standpoint. Stockhausen has his parallels with Picasso, Van Gogh with Debussy. The same idea, two different fields.

Great comment, MFB. It deserves its own thread.

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55018
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

But not in music, MFB. My understanding is that he was an art guy before starting up with Roxy.

Talk to Eno and he is surprised that anyone actually takes his art seriously as music.
This type of a discussion quickly becomes an exercise in futility because people don't understand the fundamental concept that if he were doing something innovative he would be taking the style to a new level. But what he is doing is routine. I think Phillips is a great drummer and if playing in this style is his project, he will develop it quite well. I am sure he knows the style well; but I would need to see an example of him playing doing something with it before I am going to respect his interpretation of it. To suggest that we should accept his playing on face value because he is a name is to suggest that we use no aesthetic judgment of our own. That is definitely not a road I am gong to go down. I am not going to say taht everything is value neutral. That is just nonsense.
 
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Re: Can Simon play jazz?

This type of a discussion quickly becomes an exercise in futility because people don't understand the fundamental concept that if he were doing something innovative he would be taking the style to a new level. But what he is doing is routine.

And what's wrong with that? Nobody has said that SImon Phillips is an innovative jazz drummer.
I mean really now. Who's such an innovative jazz drummer? You? Do you play nothing that could be considered routine? If so I'd very much like to hear you play sometime.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

To suggest that we should accept his playing on face value because he is a name is to suggest that we use no aesthetic judgment of our own. That is definitely not a road I am gong to go down. I am not going to say taht everything is value neutral. That is just nonsense.

No one suggested that, Ken. I didn't say or suggest that Simon's performance was innovative or that everyone must enjoy it because it's The Great Simon Phillips. It's just that I didn't relate to the blanket statement you made in general because I don't relate to blanket statements. I thought you'd be ok about qualifying it. If you missed my point then I'm sorry for not making myself clear.

As for crossing of bar lines, lots of non-jazzers use the device at times. Even I do it because "unsquaring" can keep a passage or transition from sounding stiff. If I'm familiar with the concept then Simon certainly is.

Simon may have decided to play the theme squared off as a matter of taste. After all, he's played an awful lot of sessions and probably likes things to be tidy :) Perhaps the issue is that elements of his prog tastes have leaked into his jazz performance? At least he didn't play double-kick 16ths ...
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

You can also watch this clip of the Vantage performance in which Simon discusses his upbringing in playing jazz in his dad's band in England. He does have a history in jazz and wide, deep set of experience in playing styles, just different from many of the American masters (Philly Joe, Shadow, Roy, Elvin, etc.):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcQTKi0ID38

Obviously, Simon can play jazz, and this piece demonstrates that he can play it quite well and with some flair, as, I think, Steamer noted.

His kind of jazz playing reminds me of Bill Bruford's in Earthworks: very good, very accomplished, but different than players who immerse themselves fully in the tradition (e.g., when you listen to Miles, Coltrane, Monk, Herbie, Joshua Redman, etc., and hear the drummers there). As others have noted, Simon (and Bill) has extensive experience as a rock/fusion drummer, even though he (and Bill) started with jazz and had jazz as one of his first inspirations.

I think what's really at heart here is immersion. From my experience in teaching and research (in humanities, not music), if you want to really learn something well and do it well, then immersion is necessary--at least for most of us. Whether it is literary study, science, math, philosophy, a style of music, I think you must put in your time to inhabit the space of your field of study/interest. The more you do this, the better your chance at getting a deeper knowledge of your subject, and the easier it becomes for you to call upon such skills when needed.

Players like Blakey, Elvin, Haynes and most other greats mainly spent their entire careers mastering jazz and forging new directions in jazz. They were not playing rock sessions or fusion sessions or pop sessions. Not even Tony's hybrid Lifetime stuff is really rock, in my opinion; it is still heavily jazz oriented. A player like Simon has a bit of the Renaissance man about him, in a way: he can play a massive variety of styles extremely well, but by doing this perhaps he sacrifices time and focus. He is a solid all-around player, but, because of this focus, he will probably always have a hard time playing jazz at a deeper or more sophisticated level. This is not a criticism of him or his playing--it is just a simple observation of where a player has chosen to invest her or his time and energy. You can have a jazz player who has spent 40 years in jazz, while Simon has spent equal time mainly playing rock/fusion with some jazz and other styles mixed in. Will the jazz player sound different when it comes to jazz? Yes, because in this example the jazz player has a lot more focused experienced in a style. Whether people want to label that difference as "authentic," etc., is up to them, I suppose.

Note: I will qualify my immersion argument by noting that if you don't learn how to study well and smartly, then there is a good chance that progression will not happen. Immersion, by itself, doesn't guarantee growth and mastery. Hence why we all benefit from good teachers (Alan Dawson, Ed Soph, Gary Chaffe, etc.)!

As for the point about the sound of Simon's playing, I think that has more to do with the fact that he's got clear heads on his Starclassic Maples and doesn't appear to have his bass or toms tuned to the usual high bop pitch. Tune up a bit and put coated heads on the drums, and they'll sound different.

I will add, as a side note, I'm glad to see Eric Harland's name mentioned in this thread. He is a phenomenal jazz player. I think he and Matt Wilson represent some of the best playing in jazz today: steeped in history but pushing forward at the same time, with fun experimentation.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Why should I go see him play? That is the question. There are so many great players out there without the name. I'd like to hear a little more of that free style in the beginning of the clip you shared on the previous one. The interview really isn't interesting to me. I've heard Simon speak before and he doesn't much that interests me.

You do need to immerse yourselves in the tradition to really do something with the music, and I am wondering if this is what Simon Phillips is focused on now. But even as such, I think what Steamer and I were concerned about is that on this particular track, it seemed that there is much going on musically that the drummer is not a part of and that two and four in the HH actually gets annoying after a while. It seems that about hald way through the time needs to start to relax and he keeps driving it.

Part of the sound/dynamic problem is the drum set; it's a hybrid maple-bubinga, isn't it? It's loud. He even has a screen. I really don't want to go see a jazz player who plays behind a screen. Does that sound silly? Should it really?
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

You can also watch this clip of the Vantage performance in which Simon discusses his upbringing in playing jazz in his dad's band in England. He does have a history in jazz and wide, deep set of experience in playing styles, just different from many of the American masters (Philly Joe, Shadow, Roy, Elvin, etc.):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcQTKi0ID38

Obviously, Simon can play jazz, and this piece demonstrates that he can play it quite well and with some flair, as, I think, Steamer noted.

His kind of jazz playing reminds me of Bill Bruford's in Earthworks: very good, very accomplished, but different than players who immerse themselves fully in the tradition (e.g., when you listen to Miles, Coltrane, Monk, Herbie, Joshua Redman, etc., and hear the drummers there). As others have noted, Simon (and Bill) has extensive experience as a rock/fusion drummer, even though he (and Bill) started with jazz and had jazz as one of his first inspirations.

I think what's really at heart here is immersion. From my experience in teaching and research (in humanities, not music), if you want to really learn something well and do it well, then immersion is necessary--at least for most of us. Whether it is literary study, science, math, philosophy, a style of music, I think you must put in your time to inhabit the space of your field of study/interest. The more you do this, the better your chance at getting a deeper knowledge of your subject, and the easier it becomes for you to call upon such skills when needed.

Players like Blakey, Elvin, Haynes and most other greats mainly spent their entire careers mastering jazz and forging new directions in jazz. They were not playing rock sessions or fusion sessions or pop sessions. Not even Tony's hybrid Lifetime stuff is really rock, in my opinion; it is still heavily jazz oriented. A player like Simon has a bit of the Renaissance man about him, in a way: he can play a massive variety of styles extremely well, but by doing this perhaps he sacrifices time and focus. He is a solid all-around player, but, because of this focus, he will probably always have a hard time playing jazz at a deeper or more sophisticated level. This is not a criticism of him or his playing--it is just a simple observation of where a player has chosen to invest her or his time and energy. You can have a jazz player who has spent 40 years in jazz, while Simon has spent equal time mainly playing rock/fusion with some jazz and other styles mixed in. Will the jazz player sound different when it comes to jazz? Yes, because in this example the jazz player has a lot more focused experienced in a style. Whether people want to label that difference as "authentic," etc., is up to them, I suppose.

Note: I will qualify my immersion argument by noting that if you don't learn how to study well and smartly, then there is a good chance that progression will not happen. Immersion, by itself, doesn't guarantee growth and mastery. Hence why we all benefit from good teachers (Alan Dawson, Ed Soph, Gary Chaffe, etc.)!

As for the point about the sound of Simon's playing, I think that has more to do with the fact that he's got clear heads on his Starclassic Maples and doesn't appear to have his bass or toms tuned to the usual high bop pitch. Tune up a bit and put coated heads on the drums, and they'll sound different.

I will add, as a side note, I'm glad to see Eric Harland's name mentioned in this thread. He is a phenomenal jazz player. I think he and Matt Wilson represent some of the best playing in jazz today: steeped in history but pushing forward at the same time, with fun experimentation.

Great post and perceptive comments as always I hear coming from you Robert.

If he intented to play more straight and square well the rest of the seasoned jazz musicians on the clip in the band were playing more open and rounded being more buoyant and syncopated in their comping, phrasing and soloing off the jazz tradition then I agree that I missed his musical intention and point of reference he was after. If on the other hand he was trying to replicate the vibe of the mid 90's Tony band which I think was his intent I hear coming from the overall direction of the performance his concept he didn't quite secure the same level of full intent of all the required jazz drumming elements in the same musical basket to hit the complete home run Tony did doing the same music night after night containing the same fusion of elements in primarily a jazz based ensemble setting.

Listen to what Eric Harland or Brian Blade can do within the same post Bop idiom as seen in the clip which to me has them more connected to a more complete jazz concept going on with other musicians on stage. If Simon intended to seperate the two concepts of playing happening at the same time within the music that's certainly his choice but it doesn't sound as effective to my ears as everybody on stage being on the same {jazz} page.

Anyway its all positive because in its own way having a chap of this stature taking a stab at this kind of music might attract more younger players currently sitting on the fence about listening to or liking jazz to take a deeper look at the complete history of the music... which of coarse is a good thing in my view.
 
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