Thinking about triggering my kick

Autopilot said:

Call me a liar all you want. I literally took about 10-15 mins to set up my trigger when I first got it and I have never had an issue with cross talk or double triggering....at practice or at a live show.

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I'm not calling anybody a 'liar' I'm saying they could be.

In my experience, the reliability of triggers is hugely reliant on having a setup that caters for them. Simply sticking them on drums that aren't tuned appropriately (appropriate meaning muffled bass drum heads or non-isolated toms - particularly on a rack) is just asking for trouble.

To explain to 'beyondbetrayal' why I think triggers are overcomplicated for the original poster's issue, I'll post a couple of signal flow diagrams:

Trigger

Trigger -> Module (-> MIDI Decoding -> Encoding to Audio) -> Desk -> PA.

Multiple points of failure, including the trigger itself, the physical MIDI module (you need a power supply available as well), the software/firmware setup in the module and then the common maladies of desks, PAs, etc.

Total cost? At least $200.

Bass Drum Microphone

Microphone -> Desk -> PA

The points of failure are fewer and you don't need a power supply. The physical practise of being able to place a mic is a potential point of failure but one that can be solved with a little practice. Getting a good sound from an appropriately tuned bass drum is something any drummer should be able to do. Sticking a mic in front of it isn't exactly rocket science. There's nothing difficult about running a desk either.

Total cost? Around $100.

That's why I think for the original question - the ability to hear the bass drum - is best solved by using a bass drum microphone. It's also a much more flexible solution and if necessary that same microphone can be used for other purposes. Triggers are a one-job solution and more expensive. Note that the original poster also said that he is playing it hard enough, which as far as I'm concerned cancels out the need for triggers in this particular scenario.

I do agree that if the OP is just trying to hear his bass drum when he practices that a mic would be easier and a little less expensive.

I also think people try to over complicate triggers..not necessarily you BFY ...just in general. My trigger set up consists of a Roland trigger that screws on my bass drum hoop...an Alesis DM5 module.(I use the pre programmed "Metal" bass drum sound)..and 2 instrument cables....that's it. I really don't see finding an extra power outlet to plug into as a problem. I put a couple pillows in my BD and tightened the head a little more than usual. that's all the "tweeking" I did. I never have a prob with double triggering, cross talk, or failure and Ive been using the same set up for years. .

When I play live with triggers all I need from the sound man is a DI box to plug into. I play with other metal bands that don't trigger and when they get into the fast double bass you totally lose the BD in the mix. They are always floored how crisp and clean the triggers sound in front of the stage when I get int the fast double bass. Obviously triggers work well for certain applications. My main band is a rock band. I use a mic for my BD when I play with them because I also love the acoustic sound..

Also...

Even the best death metal drummers don't use them. Just the lazy ones and it encourages all of thos hopeless 2cm from the drumhead techniques that are completely unuseable without them.

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That's just a ridiculous comment. I wont even waste my time on a rebuttal...

beyondbetrayal said:

There is a time and a place.. but if your playing over 230bpm for a long time your going to want to trigger... if I'm playing slow stuff with dynamics.. I won't trigger As i stated before.. just finding a cheap way to hear his kick. He was asking about triggers.. so I informed him.

fendyoke had a decent argument.. but In MY personal opinion, its a lot easier to get a trigger to cut threw the mix than micing my kick, thus be at a jam, or a show, or a recording. there is no bleed and its a good sound every time... micing would ALSO work in this situation. but maybe he isn't a "sound engineer" (oh wait everyone is these days) or has a crap pa, cheap mic, or whatever.. and 200 worth of gear for a great sounding kick...... or you could buy a cheap mic for $100 and maybe not have it sound as good.$200 was on the high end too.. Ive seen dm5's for $100 and ddrum triggers for $50. so your not saving crap by using a mic. .

. also i do know how to set them up properly and NOT have them double trigger or miss a hit at all. This is why I am for them and can use them at shows without worries. give me a module, bassdrum and a trigger and maybe a towel/pillow.. I can have it working perfect in minutes now.

now i cant even take half of what chunky said serious! the best death metal drummers don't use em? i guess john longstreth, Flo, and all those guys are crap then hey? and almost every death metal drummer that comes on tour or records as well.
... and triggered when you were younger? judging by your posts in 2012 you were posting about buying a dm10 for shows and recording. that was a year ago.. not "when you were younger"

and also your comments about velocity are wrong.. you don't have to set it at max all the time.. you can trigger your kick and still have velocity so as you play quieter the bass drum gets quieter and sample changes... (thought you were an engineer)

pretty stupid to call all drummers that trigger lazy. I play triggered and untriggered so my technique is good and i still hit hard.. i just prefer the SOUND of triggers. Get a real kick sample in there and your golden. just because you trigger doesn't mean you hit 2 inches away and have bad technique. that was a bad assumption

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I really got your knickers in a twist there didn't I?

I'll explain, firstly, I'm pretty sure I was STILL younger the other year but, you may be right...
Secondly I've used triggers on andboff for years, I was considering them again the other year and that was the final nail in the coffin for me as far.asbusing triggers instead of mics.

Congratulations you have had no problems with cross talknor double triggering. Neither did I when I muffled the bass drum to the hilt. Problem was I LIKE my bass drum sound AND feel so, to have to muffle it to that degree to replicate a real sound that isn't even as good as a real soind seemed like too much of a compromise

And for your information I had my trigger on 'dynamic' and YOU are wrong. Like I said, no matter what gain andnvelocity settings you choose you'll be maxing out the volume way before you're playing full belt.
Remember midi only has 127 levels of velocity.

You must be really tapping them if you think there's enough headroom...

Andbyes, I DO think alot of DM drummers are lazy andnalot of them 'cheat'. I've stuck up them before because it's the sound they need and you can't always get that from a purely acoustic kit but, it should be a tool for people who have mastered the techniques first as everyone I've seen dive straight into triggers relies on them fully to be able to play what they play.
Take the triggers away and the excuses start rolling out.

Derrick Roddy mics his kit 90% of the time and he sounds great andbhas the technique to pull it off.
You're putting yourself at a disadvantage relying on them too early.
sure my comment put everyone in one box and this isn't true, I take it back but, I'd happily bet more people rely on them for the wrong reasons (lack of speed/power) than use them as the icing on the cake, the sound of the band etc.

Also, this guy obviously doesn't have a great deal of money to spend so, the PA probably isn't upnto much. If that's the case andbyou encourage him to get triggers he'll HAVE to muffle his bass drum and lose most of the acoustic sound so the trigger will mainly be compensating for the loss of bass drum sound whereas a mic is just adding to the volume.
and it isn't THAT hard to EQ a bass drum. Probably easier than tweaking a trigger if he's never delved into the settings of a module before.

Bit of a snotty remark about everone being sound engineers these days.

Actually I am, and work in a studio so please, just don't.

I'm giving my opinion and trying to save this lad some time, money and disappointment.

Why is it that every time someone asks about triggers it has to turn into a debate. I'm out of here...

haha i must have "triggered" more of a nerve than you!! now relax .. lets help the guy out

i was just trying to help the guy get a sound that would cut threw the mix.

Not sure. i can get my bass drum to sound awesome and still trigger properly. maybe its my kit... or the fact ive been doing it for a bit... triggers take a small bit of time to get GOOD at but it works great for me.

when ur triggers or on dynamic... your HARDEST hit should be at 127.. then the rest fall into place. that way you have quite a bit of dynamcis for anything less than your hardest hit.

derrick roddy and george kolias are insane drummers and are about 2 of the only drummers that get away with not triggering.. more do than not.. which was what i was getting at..

most drummers at high speeds trigger because its nearly impossible to play LOUD and 7 inches back at 230+ bpm . theres a FEW that do it well... and me and you are both not in that group.

either way.. this is all way off topic and i've lost interest... i hope the guy who posted this got some information.. trigger.. or mic... either of that will make you louder... MY opinion is a trigger will cut threw the mix better.. its what i do every day when i jam and it works great... that is all.

listen to a few albums with triggerd kick drum and think to your self why it sticks out so much and sounds so prominent in the mix.


and everyone thinks they are a "engineer" these days... no offence if you are... i just know far too many people who own 6 or 7 mics.. record a few bands and think they are the best. i know some stuff about recording. own some mics and a decent room..... but i don't call my self an engineer.

either way. good luck!

beyondbetrayal said:

haha i must have "triggered" more of a nerve than you!! now relax .. lets help the guy out

i was just trying to help the guy get a sound that would cut threw the mix.

Not sure. i can get my bass drum to sound awesome and still trigger properly. maybe its my kit... or the fact ive been doing it for a bit... triggers take a small bit of time to get GOOD at but it works great for me.

when ur triggers or on dynamic... your HARDEST hit should be at 127.. then the rest fall into place. that way you have quite a bit of dynamcis for anything less than your hardest hit.

derrick roddy and george kolias are insane drummers and are about 2 of the only drummers that get away with not triggering.. more do than not.. which was what i was getting at..

most drummers at high speeds trigger because its nearly impossible to play LOUD and 7 inches back at 230+ bpm . theres a FEW that do it well... and me and you are both not in that group.

either way.. this is all way off topic and i've lost interest... i hope the guy who posted this got some information.. trigger.. or mic... either of that will make you louder... MY opinion is a trigger will cut threw the mix better.. its what i do every day when i jam and it works great... that is all.

listen to a few albums with triggerd kick drum and think to your self why it sticks out so much and sounds so prominent in the mix.


and everyone thinks they are a "engineer" these days... no offence if you are... i just know far too many people who own 6 or 7 mics.. record a few bands and think they are the best. i know some stuff about recording. own some mics and a decent room..... but i don't call my self an engineer.

either way. good luck!

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I own a studio, with many rooms mics, studied and been doing this for over 13 years.
But fair play, alot of people claim to engineers these days when they have a copy of cubase at home.

I still find 127 is hit too easily and I've tweaked every setting in every single way a thousand times.
Just doesn't have that 5th gear for me.

As for youe bass drum soind, it doesn't matter if your bass drum is good or not, unfortunately that is the sacrifice of choosing triggers.
This is my biggest gripe with them.

I find I can get the sound and feel I want with a mic and if you're stuck for consistency there is always compressors and gates.
Though the OP won't even be thinking that kind of money.

I can't help feeling the reason why Derek roddy sounds so much better than nearly every other DM drummee is his sound and the fact he can play more expressively with that acoustic sound.

Not to mention his phrasing and techique... But, listen to how well his drums sit in the mix.

I used to love Decapitated but, if I listen to their 2ns and 3rd album for long enough the bass drum sounds like a shivering skeletons jaw, clacking together.
I've probably ruined them for you now, everytime you hear then you'll think of that!
I swear!

hahaha.. i feel that way about alot of bands, but sometimes it has to be done. i guess for the most part. a sample is easier to use than to get a good sounding mix out of a mic.. for me it is anyways... with the volume we jam at in my basement there would be too much bleed. just with a bad sample it can make it much worse.

I guess my trick is to turn the gain down a bit... i have to REALLY hammer it to hit 127... so most of the hits are in the range just under... but i see what your saying... accoustic is infinate. 127 isn't alot.. especially most samples are almost in audible below 50


to be honest... i usually leave velocity off anyways for my death metal band because i love the sound of a balls to the wall trigger.

if theres a way to try both id suggest it... i have even had both hooked up to my kit at the same time before and makes quite a punchy and big sound

beyondbetrayal said:

hahaha.. i feel that way about alot of bands, but sometimes it has to be done. i guess for the most part. a sample is easier to use than to get a good sounding mix out of a mic.. for me it is anyways... with the volume we jam at in my basement there would be too much bleed. just with a bad sample it can make it much worse.

I guess my trick is to turn the gain down a bit... i have to REALLY hammer it to hit 127... so most of the hits are in the range just under... but i see what your saying... accoustic is infinate. 127 isn't alot.. especially most samples are almost in audible below 50


to be honest... i usually leave velocity off anyways for my death metal band because i love the sound of a balls to the wall trigger.

if theres a way to try both id suggest it... i have even had both hooked up to my kit at the same time before and makes quite a punchy and big sound

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Sorry for the late reply, I wasn't ignoring you or anything.

Yeah I understand a lot of DM bands don't have the dynamics on for their kicks and sometimes even the snare and toms.
But that's the sound the genre calls for I suppose. I must admit fast double bass with computer-like triggering does sound great. It's just the other stuff it falls short on for me but, then again death metal is pretty much ALL full on double bass!

Like I said, I always hit the wall with triggers, I must just have heavy feet as there are always time when I'm left wanting a bit more.

I think learning to trigger is a great skill but, anyone thinking of doing it should know that they WILL have to learn and they WILL be spending time finding out what settings do what.
But it comes in handy. Most people I know with e-kits haven't a clue about how to really delve into the settings and perfect the feel.
It's something I love doing, I can be quite nerdy with that stuff. It's came in very useful though over the years.

I love the no-bleed from triggers and if they felt a bit better I'd definitely trigger Superior Drummer 2 from a laptop live.
But I can get the sound with mics, there is no point on me recreating a realistic sound with triggers when a mic does just that.
If however you are after your kind of 'synthetic' sound, they can be great. I just still can't get away with the feel.

I feel as though I keep going on about the bloody feel! haha

Superior is amazing... i use it with my td20 for practice.. but i don't bring laptops to shows.. too much to worry about.. i bring my td20 module to trigger which is enough... and compaired to the dm5.. i think its the reason i have no trigger issues.. it works GREAT with the ddrum trigger... just plug it in and it works ... almost

your right though.. guys first learning need to know there is a learning curve... you cant just put it on ur drum and have it work.. a mic you can just shove in there... but then there is a learning curve for mic placement and eq and not making it sound like garbage.. so to each their own...

Thanks all for the response!

Now im also thinking about using a trigger for a live situation as well. I went to a metal show the other night and with a few of the bands, even the headliner, the kick was really missing in the mix. This was with just micing not triggering.

I admit, I dont like the idea of having to mess with more stuff then just a mic and an amp, I like to keep it simple when I can. But the fact that at most metal shows, band practices, ect the kick just gets lost it does seem that triggering to cut through is a good way to go. If one had their own sound guy at every show I assume that it would not be an issue. But when its just a house sound guy it really seems like a roll of the dice.

drummingman said:

I admit, I dont like the idea of having to mess with more stuff then just a mic and an amp, I like to keep it simple when I can.

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You really don't need much more to trigger besides a small module to plug into. When I trigger live all I have to bring is the trigger, module, and 2 instrument cables. It all fits in a small bag.

drummingman said:

Thanks all for the response!

Now im also thinking about using a trigger for a live situation as well. I went to a metal show the other night and with a few of the bands, even the headliner, the kick was really missing in the mix. This was with just micing not triggering.

I admit, I dont like the idea of having to mess with more stuff then just a mic and an amp, I like to keep it simple when I can. But the fact that at most metal shows, band practices, ect the kick just gets lost it does seem that triggering to cut through is a good way to go. If one had their own sound guy at every show I assume that it would not be an issue. But when its just a house sound guy it really seems like a roll of the dice.

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I still don't understand why people think a trigger will cut through more. I played for decades with no trigger, just a Mic. Bottom line is whether or not your kick or kit cut through the mix is ultimately up to the guy running the board. a trigger doesn't solve that problem

I think the way that a lot of metal guys (on a local) tune their bass drums is also a factor.

From past experience on the local scene; a lot of guys tune their heads up quite high and stuff the hell out of the bass. This makes it easier to play, certainly, but with all that stuffing in the bass drum, you're allowing no space for air to move through the drum. The less air hitting the diaphragm of the mic, the weaker the signal and reaching the board. This also narrows down the frequency range of the drum, resulting in less tone and presence.

The day I ditched the stuffing from my bass drum was the day my bass started to be heard...it was almost like I had a volume boost pedal!

The way I tune is:

Batter head - very low, but just at the point where I'm getting tone too

Resonant head - pitch quite quite high, the the fundamental note of the drum itself.

What I've found with this tuning is that the loose batter allows maximum movement of the head and in turn this generates a bigger movement of air (sound wave) through the drum. The tighter resonant head allows this sound wave to pass and translate through the head very quickly.

Just my tuppence worth,

Kev

konaboy said:

I still don't understand why people think a trigger will cut through more. I played for decades with no trigger, just a Mic. Bottom line is whether or not your kick or kit cut through the mix is ultimately up to the guy running the board. a trigger doesn't solve that problem

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Agreed. If the sound guy doesn't have your kick sounding right, it's probably because he isn't used to running sound for metal bands (dare I call such bands metal). If it doesn't cut well, ask the sound guy the boost the highs a little. That should bring out more of the 'click' sound that you metal kids love so much these days. Also, if your guitarists run good EQs with their rigs, you can have them cut the 3-5Khz area (if my memory hasn't failed me), and that will give more headroom for the high end of the kick to cut through, as it won't make much a difference in a metal guitar tone.

Given that the PA equipment is halfway decent, you shouldn't have much of a problem getting the kick to cut through, if you follow what I have just said.

P.S. Get a good kick drum head with some built in dampening. JAW tuning is your friend, and DON'T PUT ANYTHING IN THE KICK DRUM! Then position the mic just inside the port pointing slightly off-center from the beater

I know this thread is ancient, but I think it is time to wake it up. I have had it with triggers........I do feel that they are for people too lazy to tune their their drums. Nothing gets me more than seeing a dude playing a 10,000 dollar Kit with triggers on it. Why the hell spend the money on the kit if you aren't even gonna hear it? I'm a multi musician and I had a hired drummer with a DW Collectors kit behind me one night. He had it all triggered up, but I could hear how awful the drums sounded behind me. We literally stopped a show and I tuned his drums because he was a kid with chops that had no idea how to tune....When you get your drums to sound good and can do that well, then get into triggers to play with adding percussion sounds, not making the sound for the drums.

Triggers don't always have to be used as a clutch for tuning. Sometimes (in my case) it has to do with playing 16th notes at 230bpm. I can get a sample with more high end and attack to cut the mix so it's actually audible. Without it would be a hummmmmmmmmm.

Also, I have several kits that sound fantastic. Getting into edrums or hybrid drums won't change that they still sound great.

That was just him not being able to tune, and like you said, he was a kid. Once again. Nothing to do with the fact of using triggers.

I can make a $400 kit sound better than many can make one worth several grand cost. The pricetag on drums doesn't mean how good it is going to sound. I have seen MANY people make kits in that range sound dumb, and to be honest, shouldn't even own a kit like that.

With that being said, triggering the kick to cut the mix is my trigger. I don't trigger the snare and toms, sometimes I"ll add a pad for percussive or effects. And in my other band I don't even trigger. So the kit has to sound good all the time. But don't think that they are just a cop out for tuning because that is untrue.

I blast on double too, Play Tama Starclassic Performer B/B Live, and Record with an Acrylic DW Design Series (also used for tiny rooms live). I run Remo Powerstrokes Live and Evans Gmad/Eq3 Reso in the studio. I have no issues cutting my through my mix with Speed Cobra Beaters on Axis Longboard A's. I think a lot of new guys/gals don't look into five major things when sitting down behind their kit live. First, Room Dynamics. You're a drummer, you know what I mean. A stage in the corner gets boomy behind the kit but has no low end out front. A big room with a stage in center caries out nice but lacks the thud behind the kit without a monitor system. yada yada yada. Two, the beaters they use. Everyone just runs whatever beater came with their pedal. 9 times for 10, I run my speed cobra beaters with Kevlar patches. When I want that death metal click, I use aluminum Trick beaters and plastic patches that I literally make myself with 2-sided tape and a 2" diameter, 10-mil ABS Plastic disc. The plastic is adhered over the complete surface of the patch(no air in between the two surfaces)to whatever head it goes on. She gets tuned high n tight Then the batter side of my kick gets mic'd with a snare mic. Bam, Psycho kick attack. Three, in house sound systems are usually garbage at bars, where most of us gig. I use a hired sound guy whenever I can because I know his equipment and how much of it to bring for whatever size room we're playing. Don't need 4 dual 15 mains and two double 18 dumps for a 24 x 30 bar. . . you get it. Four, They don't know how to set up their pedals. They pull it out of the of the box, clamp it on and use it. There really is such thing as sloppy pedals, noisy pedals, light pedals, heavy pedals, etc. once again, guys like us know that. I played 9000's for years and still love them, but they are nowhere as near as powerful as a well adjusted axis or speed cobra. The fifth and final thing.......They have to realize one HUGE thing, Actually, It's not the drummer that needs to realize it. Most bassists need to get it through their heads that they are not the front section of the ensemble. That's the lead singer and guitarists for us metal guys.....So...turn the fucking bass down!!!!! Sorry, had to razz bassists.....Nothing is more annoying than a guy with an 8X10 rig with the volume maxed becasue he thinks it souds cool, while all he's doing is drowning out tom and kick resonance. . . and no matter how the soung guy eq's it, it won't get fixed until the bass amp gets turned down to the RIGHT level.

ViciousMick said:

I have had it with triggers........I do feel that they are for people too lazy to tune their their drums.

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I’m sure you are right when talking about inexperienced drummers. But let’s be honest, the same people that fall in this category probably aren’t people anyone would look up to for their drumming prowess. I feel like your experience is probably pretty rare. A dude with amazing chops that doesn’t have any idea how to tune cannot be that common. Maybe that can’t tune WELL, but to have to stop a show and teach a drummer how to tune is pretty extreme.

You have some excellent advice/tips on getting a good bass sound without triggers, and I have indeed utilized much of what you discussed. The big HOWEVER... I have been to countless metal shows (most somewhere near the “death metal” genre) from the local scene to globally recognized acts and 9.9 times out of 10 the triggered bass sounded better. To my ears at least.

The studio is a whole other beast, but for live shows with extremely fast double bass, I disagree with you. For almost any other genre of music that doesn’t have fast double, triggers don’t have much value.

People tend to get triggered when talking about triggers (pun intended). I really don’t understand why.

NackAttack said:

People tend to get triggered when talking about triggers (pun intended). I really don’t understand why.

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The simple answer is peoples' general ignorance of them or that it's "cheating" or whatever.

Look at the novel this guy wrote on getting a good bass drum sound when doing blasts.
So you're at at gig- you need to set up and get the sound you want quickly. Would you rather go through all these steps or just plug into a trigger and know you'll get the desired sound right off the bat?

No-one's saying you shouldn't look for a great acoustic bass drum sound on it's own merit- this is just a technical issue with a simple solution when you need to play above certain bpm's.

beyondbetrayal said:

. . . . . also.. i PREFER a triggered kick to a mic kick...(for metal and death metal) for my punk band i prefer a mic.. the guys against triggering probably have not tried it so they are biased.

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My only problem with triggering is I didn't buy a nice drum set to listen to samples. I want to hear the drums I paid for.