Full festival report - swinging both ways (Sound man & drummer)

Andy

Honorary Member
Ok, here's my report as a follow up to my "from the other side" thread. It's a bit lengthy, but hopefully you'll get some amusement from it, & for those not so used to small festival stages, some insight too :)

Down on the Farm festival is a small local event in the heart of the Golden valley in Herefordshire (UK). Based on a cider farm, it caters for about 500 people with two stages. Stage 1 is in a metal sheet barn, the other in a marquee. I've included shots of the setting during setup so you get a feel for the event. This year, I'm ran sound / stage setup across 3 days plus performed with my band.

Stage & gear:

The stage is constructed from plastic pallets & straw bales, with a farm trailer as a drum stage to the rear. It's actually much more stable than you'd think, & sonically not that bad either. FOH system consists of 4 x FBT subs (two reversed to phase stage boom reduction) & 8 x FBT line array units. Total output is 20K RMS. We're running about 4K in monitoring with a selection of wedges + QSC 1K 3 ways for drums & keyboards. Desk is a A&H MixWiz3 16:2. 4 way monitor mix. Lighting is all LED - 3 truss rigging - consisting of 4 x 240W RGBW fan cooled barn door floods, 4 x 80W RGBW spots, 4 x 50W RGBW moonflowers, & a 200W RGB blinder.

To show lighting, I've included pictures taken during the day (Fired Up shot), & at night (Bordellos shot) As the barn walls are slatted, we sheeted off the stage potion of the barn to give at least some lighting affect in daylight.

I prefer to use a simple analogue desk such as the A&H MixWiz3 because of it's intuitive simplicity in a fast turnaround multi band application.

Band experiences:

Most bands were just fine to deal with, being modest, helpful, & accommodating, but the odd one or two needed to check their egos, both leading up to the event, & their demeanour on the day. I have included an image of a tech rider sent to me prior to the event. It's for a 5 piece rock band, who even in their biggest shows, use keyboards for one part of one song. This is a mini festival in a barn FFS! 9 way monitor mix & two keyboard stages? - I think not!

Drummer & drums experiences:

All drummers, except one, were gracious & helpful. Every drummer used their own kit. We did leave the Guru Tour series kit set up on the first night, & offered it's use to the 3 performing bands. Two said yes please, the first band drummer refused, instead, preferring his own kit on the basis he uses two mounted toms not one. His kit sound was bordering impossible to get sounding good, & I don't remember him using both mounted toms at any time during their set. As a consequence, the other bands didn't get to use the Guru - ah well :(

That aside, some kits were presented in a terrible sounding condition, with clearly zero gig preparation. In some cases, this was just laziness, but in many cases, complete ignorance of how to tune / prepare a kit. I'm used to this, but it still never ceases to amaze / disappoint me. Such crappy sounding kits were not limited to the less experienced drummers either - crimes were committed across the drumming expertise spectrum. A prime example of such a crime is included in the pictures. Two shots, & hopefully you can pick up the issue with the bass drum. Not only is it used in the reverse, he also has one spur facing forwards, & another one facing backwards - apparently to prevent the bass drum creeping towards him!!! That was a first for me, but as the drummer was the youngest & clearly least experienced of all the drummers, it was at least forgivable :) He actually played very well!

At least half the kits presented had totally dead sounding drums. Slack / no tuning, grossly over muffled, & in some cases apparently, deliberately so. Some drummers reporting that sound men prefer totally dead drums. That says more about the state of sound man quality than it does drummers.

Aside from hideous sounding drums, the biggest difficulty I faced was bass drums with built in mic's. Now, done well, such an installation can be time advantageous, but if you don't get it absolutely right, you're severely limiting the engineering options. I admit, I'm not a fan of internally mic'ing any drum, as (IMHO) it doesn't allow for the drum's total sound to resolve, but I do see some advantages if the drummer's tuning skills or sound man's mic placement skills are lacking. I don't get the argument on the advantage with a full resonant head either, as an internal mic doesn't effectively pick up the resonant head contribution anyhow. Of the 3 drums presented with internal mic's, two suffered from pronounced pipe resonance that took much longer to EQ out than setting up mic's ever could, & the other one was utterly dead due to excessive laundry infestation. I'm happy to answer deeper questions on live stage mic placement in this thread if there's any interest.

Ok, I think that's enough for now, except to add video links I hope you find informative / entertaining. All recorded with built in mic's with a Zoom Q3HD near the stage, & a Zoom Q8 at the desk position. In hindsight, I should have switched the cameras around, but didn't realise until it was too late :( Please select HD1080P or 720P on the Youtube "cog" & use headphones for best audio.

1/ A compilation video featuring a number of bands https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYVxC54bdC4

2/ A shot clip of the Guru kit at soundcheck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDdObUWSwBA

An exhausting 6 days, especially having to play a set & engineer the rest of the day. Regrettably, after line checking, I had to hand over to another engineer so I could play my set, & he under levelled my bass drum :(
 

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Thanks for the summary, Andy! Looks like you had a good - if tiring - time.

I love the vibe of the first band in the montage video. I love that whole Rumjacks/Murphys/Molly genre.

The fiddle player in the second band seriously needs lessons on tuning and intonation. [shudder] That was actually painful.

As for the third band, on behalf of America, I apologize to the British people for inflicting Rockabilly on you. That said, the drummer has chops and feel.

Both the tribute bands were quite good, as were the Bordellos. Fired Up were on FIYAH. You guys are GOOD. Now let the keys player on camera. ;-)

Mixes sounded solid. Of course your kit was the best of the bunch, but you managed to conquer the piles of shite with which you were presented, and that's a feather in your cap, me son.

I'm crushed you couldn't book The Wurzels. What kind of rural festival is it without The Wurzels? And for the love of Pete, you were at a CIDERY.

https://youtu.be/2zwwqEm5YhQ

smiley_outline_wink_T.png
 
Thanks for the summary, Andy! Looks like you had a good - if tiring - time.

I love the vibe of the first band in the montage video. I love that whole Rumjacks/Murphys/Molly genre.

The fiddle player in the second band seriously needs lessons on tuning and intonation. [shudder] That was actually painful.

As for the third band, on behalf of America, I apologize to the British people for inflicting Rockabilly on you. That said, the drummer has chops and feel.

Both the tribute bands were quite good, as were the Bordellos. Fired Up were on FIYAH. You guys are GOOD. Now let the keys player on camera. ;-)

Mixes sounded solid. Of course your kit was the best of the bunch, but you managed to conquer the piles of shite with which you were presented, and that's a feather in your cap, me son.

I'm crushed you couldn't book The Wurzels. What kind of rural festival is it without The Wurzels? And for the love of Pete, you were at a CIDERY.
Thanks for your kind words, & I agree with your observations.

As for The Wurzles, they were booked for this mini festival the year before I got involved. Apparently, they were terrible, both in terms of attitude & performance.
 
So Axel Rose was the headliner?


The GURUS sounded great Andy, the snare wins best in show, but pretty much what we'd expect, you're the sound guy at the gig.

Does the queen or any of the royal family drop into events like this, to get a taste of and hang with the 'commoner' vibe so to speak? If so, Im guessing her handlers would've made sure she missed the 'Debbie' set(?)
 
"... excessive laundry infestation ..."

I think they have a spray for that, but can't remember what it's called?!?

Oh yeah, Fire Hose!

Thanks for the report, Andy. From my perspective, the write-up is almost as satisfying as the sound, lighting and at least one drummer's performance!
 
The GURUS sounded great Andy, the snare wins best in show, but pretty much what we'd expect, you're the sound guy at the gig.
I hope you're not implying preferential sound treatment! Actually, I wasn't the sound man for our own set. I just did the line check & got on the kit. Even though I say so myself - ahem - the Guru's out performed (tonally) anything else there by quite a margin, but they should do. a/ they're designed to do exactly that job, & b/ they were in a reasonable state of tune.

From my perspective, the write-up is almost as satisfying as the sound, lighting and at least one drummer's performance!
Yes, the drummer with the Blondie tribute was an excellent player :)
 
Must admit, I did think this report would throw up more interest / questions, especially on subjects such as preparing drums for live stage, mic placement, etc.

I'm travelling extensively over the next two weeks, so replies will be patchy, hence this bump.
 
What did you end up doing with the band with the ridiculous tech rider? And did they throw up a stink? I have to wonder how often their requests are actually met because that setup really is ridiculous.

Also I notice you using mic stands for the tom mics on your kit. Do you ever sully your beautiful kit with mic clips? :)
 
Did a bike rally with The Delrays 5 years ago, I thought their set was great and they were miles better than the band I was in at the time, but I was in a band of middle aged failed rockers still clinging onto the dream (the things you do for beer money!) I think the drummer has upgraded a bit from then.

If I rocked up at a festival and was offered that Guru to use, you wouldn't have had any arms left to do the sound with!

The problem with a lot of drummers and sound engineers is they are stuck in the 1970's idiots guide to getting a drum sound. Don't understand using your bass drum as an airing cupboard, takes all the feel from both heads and kills the airflow but it's a quick fix to get a dead thump. Same problem with toms I played a heap of gaffa tape which I think had some drums underneath it in Brum once, sounded amazing out front but I may as well have been hitting practice pads.

Some of it may just be ignorance but if you don't understand your instrument how do you get the most from it? Tuning is hardest part because it come's with experience and getting a good ear. If you have a well tuned kit, good sound guys are usually your best mate if all they have to do is put some mics on the kit and not much else, I think some people don't realise a sound guy doesn't do miracles.

Surely having the legs facing different directions would mean your bass drum would move in mysterious circles. Bass drum anchor?
 
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What an amazing (and exhausting gig) ! Looks like a lot of fun for the punters, lots of hard work for the creW.

Thanks for the report and pictures. Nice to see a show that's all about live bands with real drums and guitars, not just turntables and laptops. I also find it interesting that the 70's and 80's dead drum kit sounds are still so prevalent.

I like your choice of mixer - much quicker to be able to see the settings and access everything quickly in a multi band situation.


Hope you're catching up on sleep and relaxation now its all over.
 
What did you end up doing with the band with the ridiculous tech rider? And did they throw up a stink? I have to wonder how often their requests are actually met because that setup really is ridiculous.

Also I notice you using mic stands for the tom mics on your kit. Do you ever sully your beautiful kit with mic clips? :)
The band with the "out of context" rider accepted reality prior to the event (a chat from me), but still succeeded in disenfranchising the audience with excessive setup time & subsequent delays. Additionally, if you're going to insist on using your own radio mic, at least bring a professional grade unit! I had huge issues with interference & frequency spikes that required a complete re-EQ of the FOH line array - MID SET!!!

I prefer mic stands wherever possible, as it gives me distance mic positioning that clip ons just can't offer. I did use clip ons for one or two kits though - mainly on the basis of positioning / clutter or such a shit drum sound that I was into turd polishing mode anyhow.

Did a bike rally with The Delrays 5 years ago, I thought their set was great
A very good travelling band. Great gear quality, great attitude, & good players. That Mapex kit offered the easiest of line checks, simply on the basis that the drummer prepared it for the show.

If I rocked up at a festival and was offered that Guru to use, you wouldn't have had any arms left to do the sound with!
You can lead a horse to water ;)
Some of it may just be ignorance but if you don't understand your instrument how do you get the most from it?
This was the biggest issue in terms of getting a good drum sound. I'd say at least half of the drummers had absolutely no clue as to how to get a good sound out of their instrument, & most of the rest were mediocre at best. Compared to the instrument & sonic knowledge of other musicians, it's both astounding & disappointing in equal measure.

Surely having the legs facing different directions would mean your bass drum would move in mysterious circles. Bass drum anchor?
You'd think so wouldn't you! To my amazement, it didn't move. maybe he's onto something :) It did sound like crap though :(
What an amazing (and exhausting gig) ! Looks like a lot of fun for the punters, lots of hard work for the creW.
A massive amount of work, & quite exhausting for a busy old fart like me :(

I also find it interesting that the 70's and 80's dead drum kit sounds are still so prevalent.
I think that's mostly by ignorance default rather than a conscious stylistic choice. The exception being my tuning choice. We're predominantly an 80's material band, so low, fat, & meaty is the choice - but still with plenty of rich tone :)

I like your choice of mixer - much quicker to be able to see the settings and access everything quickly in a multi band situation.
I can't be doing with digital sub menu crap on a fast turnaround line check gig like this. They're great for stored settings on tours & such, but otherwise - meh! I am an old school sort though. Any decent engineer (I'm not what I class as a real sound engineer BTW) can tease 90% of a good mix from the get go, & have it all dialled in by the end of the first chorus. Only with two bands did I struggle to achieve that, but there were extenuating circumstances :(
 
"We're all out of cornflakes. F.U." Took me three hours to figure out F.U. was Felix Ungar!
:)
 
The vid shows typical stuff bands /people present at gigs.



As to this-

Originally Posted by mikyok View Post

Some of it may just be ignorance but if you don't understand your instrument how do you get the most from it?


This was the biggest issue in terms of getting a good drum sound. I'd say at least half of the drummers had absolutely no clue as to how to get a good sound out of their instrument, & most of the rest were mediocre at best. Compared to the instrument & sonic knowledge of other musicians, it's both astounding & disappointing in equal measure.

I never assume what a drummer knows, or doesn't know about gear and tuning upon seeing them for the first time. I can deduce how many hrs they've put behind a drum set by their level of playing proficiency, beginner, intermediate, advanced etc. tho for gear and tuning for all I know it could be revealed they're using someone else's kit, or there's unseen circumstances that have tagged along.

So many variables that could be in play. Drummer drove many hrs to the gig, they're dealing with a vibration from having a spat with their lover/mate, they got a ticket on the way there, they're sick, a lot of stuff could be happening underneath. Afflicted drummer may be pro enough to hide it, or at least try to, which could manifest as a myriad of personna's. Their attitude could be "F@#* it! My snare/kit sounds good enough, I don't feel like dealing with it."

Not everyone shows up in a perfect emotional state, ready to play, some could really be (for a good reason in their mind) feeling like "Man, I can't wait till this gig is over and I can get the hell outta here." All influencing factors on their sound, less so on performance (tho not excluded), bc performance is something they have to confront directly, and if at an advanced level they (a pro) will perform in a way, and at a level that masks any underlying challenges. Sound, or taking the extra steps/time to get a great sound can be overlooked, as in that's what roadies are for, and... 'since I ain't got one today and don't feel up to dealing with it, its going to be what it is, I'll (I can) play the kit like that.' That type of attitude can be in play, and get by.


If the sound person knows the players (and a big plus to talk to them beforehand), they need to decide if its worth doing the gig for GBP 4000 etc. cuz the players hold the wild cards when it comes to the (overall) quality of the sound. If guitar player brings a bad cord, infirior piece of gear, that (in general) reflects on the sound person. People see a bunch of good gear onstage, then somethings not right, guess who gets the finger? After all sound person is getting 5k and they were there the day bf setting up, they should have it down. Most in the audience don't know the whole game.
 
The vid shows typical stuff bands /people present at gigs.
Les, I can assure you that hardly anyone at this gig is getting anything with a "K" at the end of the number :(

Yes, mood brought on by extraneous circumstances always feeds into the mix, but most players approached this gig in a fully relaxed manner. The whole vibe is very chilled, indeed, many bands stay for the whole 3 days to soak it all up. The only player who was noticeably stressed by workload / timeline was me :(

Most of what I see, both at this gig & others, is a significant majority of players who's playing skills exceed their instrument preparation skills. Of course, that's exactly where the bias should be, but think how much better they'd present if their instrument was performing optimally too :)

That's not so bad. Do you sell them in 3X size?
Sorry man, I can't even order that size, 2x being the only option we have. It's our fault, we used a low cost supplier who has limited options in the same shirt stock as everyone else.
 
Sorry man, I can't even order that size, 2x being the only option we have. It's our fault, we used a low cost supplier who has limited options in the same shirt stock as everyone else.

No problem, I run across this all the time. It's my fault. That's a cool shirt though.
 
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