How to settle tempo debate with guitar player

I play in a local cover band that plays between 7 and 12 shows per month. We have been together for about 8 months and are still in the "gelling" mode and getting the feel for each other as musicians and grooves. I was approached by my guitar player a while back saying that my tempos were too fast and needed to back them off. After review of some of the shows, I totally agreed!! I was really flying! LOL! Also, my fills would speed up even more and some fills would slow the tempo down. I was all over the map. I backed all the tempos off about 10 bpm + or - depending on groove feel which helped level out my meter on fills. Now, I feel I'm where I need to be, yet he feels I should slow it down even more. I don't fluctuate meter anymore, but tempos still seem to be high according to my guitar player. Since it's a cover scene, playing songs at record tempo seem to lose crowds in my opinion. So, I feel that the tempos should be a bit quicker to my feel.

How would you comprimise with your guitar player on a good feel for both of us?

How you feel about it doesn't come into it. In this case your job is to play the right tempos. Talk to the bass player. Get right with him. If the two of you are solid tempo-wise there shouldn't be any problem unless you're both rushing!

con struct said:

In this case your job is to play the right tempos. Talk to the bass player. Get right with him. If the two of you are solid tempo-wise there shouldn't be any problem unless you're both rushing!

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+1

I'd suggest learning the songs at the same tempo as the originals. Quite often a live environment means that excitement and adrenalin kick in and you'll automatically play that little bit faster anyway. If you're learning the songs at a quickened pace, then they'll be blistering come show time.....often too much so. Practise them correctly so that if they speed up a little in a live situation it doesn't ruin the feel of the song.

Cannot recommend locking in with the bass player strongly enough. As a "rythm section" it's imperative the two of you are tight.......really tight! It usually forces everyone else to follow suit.......I used to refer to it as 'safety in numbers' and always found the bassist my greatest ally in helping to keep others in the right groove.

reeber13 said:

Since it's a cover scene, playing songs at record tempo seem to lose crowds in my opinion. So, I feel that the tempos should be a bit quicker to my feel.

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IMO, if you take any cover song and speed it up, it loses its feel. I think that you should try and keep the tempo where it was recorded. Tempo is SO important. Maybe you're not

comfortable with the actual tempo and think you have to goose it up a little more, that's a pitfall most drummers fall in to early on. Don't do it. Don't think that the songs excitement

depends on you, slow it down to the recorded tempo and try and feel comfortable with it, because that's where it wants to be. You should listen to your guitar player, he can be a

little more objective than you. Just trust what he says. You will be easier to work with by taking suggestions readily.

con struct said:

How you feel about it doesn't come into it. In this case your job is to play the right tempos.

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Correct.

Also note that it's common to perceive a tempo as slower than it is, so the result of something that feels 'right' is that it's probably fast by 5bpm or more. That may not seem like much, but it's enough to make a song lose its groove.

Basically, if a song feels a little slow, it's probably just right.

If there's any question about it, record a set and listen back later away from your kit and objectively. You'll hear any problems quite clearly.

Bermuda

+1 to everything that's been said.

I always tell my students that if a song they play frequently feels just a little too slow to them, they are probably playing it at the right tempo. Also remember that as a cover band, your goal is to get people to dance, and dance for the whole night, not get tired out after one fast song. The "standard" comfy dance tempo seems to be 120, meaning you want your songs, for the most part, to be around 110 - 130 or so.

I think an important thing to do is see what your audience moves to. In my cover band, we tend to play about 10 BPM faster than the recording for most songs, and it works well for us. However, certain songs, like Sweet Home Alabama (Skynyrd), we found the crowd reacts better to it at a faster tempo...not flying, but not dragging like the recording, or close to it. Other songs, such as Hurt So Good (Mellencamp), I discovered gets a better reaction and more dancing/singing along if we take it just a smidge SLOWER than the recording. I can't explain it, but it's true. When I hear the studio version of that song now, I find that I actually feel weird, like it is pushing a bit, because I'm used to the more backed-off version that our crowds love.

(in reference to this thread) Play to a click.

Then it doesn't matter what anyone thinks, who's tired, who's had too much coffee, or what anyone perceives as right or wrong, the click will always be right.

Of course, some people don't like this, but you can still count the songs off to a metronome, which will give every one an agreed upon starting point.

DrumEatDrum said:

...the click will always be right.

Of course, some people don't like this, but you can still count the songs off to a metronome, which will give every one an agreed upon starting point.

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I play in a band where I use a little Boss metronome to start songs based on agreed-upon tempos, so there's never a question of the countoff being too fast or slow. That completely lets me off the hook should something not feel right to the singer, but more than that, we sound better when we're playing the way we want.

Bermuda

Yes I agree that if it seems too slow, it's probably closer to the correct tempo in reality. You really lose the groove and feel of many songs by speeding them up. Take a song like Cruel to be kind or anything by ZZ Top and it just loses all its feel when played too fast. I use a click to give me a tempo before most songs and it really helps and is an eye opener the first few shows because you say to yourself, "there's no way that tempo can be right", but it really is.

If you have the money. . .there's a nifty little device you can buy called the Groove Guide. I saw it in the back of a Modern Drummer mag, never used it myself, but it's got a few pro endorsements and might be worth it if you have lots of tempo disputes. I can't insert the link 'cause the site is acting weird right now, but it's www.drumperfect.com

i don't know about your guitar player, but the lead guitarist in my band doesn't like me to play too fast because it makes it hard for him to pull off his ultra-shredding guitar hero solos.

i try hard to keep things at a reasonable tempo, but sometimes in the excitement of a live gig i still speed up a bit. i'm working on it!

Thanks guys! You all said what I already kind of thought. I just needed the reassurement from other drummers. I'm never home, on the road A LOT and never interact with other drummers other than here. It's good to see opinions from others that sit in my seat! Thanks guys!

Anyone use this device that you clip a trigger to your snare head and it actually shows you the beats per the hits on the snare through a red LCD readout? I forget what it's called, but it seems to be pretty cool. Anyone know of this?

Tempo Ref, IIRC. And, you know, twenty characters.

Beat Bug, too


202020

This doesn't help you but it's an interesting sidelight on vintage recording tempos. The last time I saw Artie Shaw live, he talked about the difference between the tempo of his recorded tunes versus live performances. The old 78 rpm discs had a limited recording time available on them; I forget the length. If the tempo of a cut made it run over time, the tempo was speeded up to fit it in. If too short, the tempo was slowed down. Artie complained that anyone who only played his records and didn't hear it live never heard the tune at the correct tempo. This held true for all the recordings at that time. With the advent of LPs, that changed.

since our guitar player is so touchy about tempo, i usually let him count us in at the beginning of each song, which he is more than happy to do. that way there's no complaining from him about tempo unless i speed up.

In my experience guitar players, even good ones, tend to rush like crazy, so if your guitar player thinks you rush, you might be really rushing! It's good you got a wake-up call. I got one in college when I failed a big band audition-and our school had three big bands and five drummer slots, but not that much talent. I was crushed, but fortunately I spoke to one of the judges, and he said I read well, had a strong feel, but all the tempos picked up like mad. Best life lesson I ever had.

You'll know you have your tempos down when other band members are pushing the beat, but you stand your ground because you know you're right. It's a great feeling, it projects confidence, fill the dance floor and you become in demand. What's better than that?

Try picking up a "Beat Bug". If you dont' know what they are look it up. It only costs around 100. Its essentially and led display that hangs on your snare and reads the tempos for you. It will let you know if your speeding up or slowing down. It will give you numbers to play the tempos by. It tends to work really well in your situation and its not like the rest of the guys have to play to a click with you. That way you will always know for sure what the tempos are, if they are the same as the last gig, and when your pushing and pulling. Then there is no more tempo discussion because you have a tool that states exactly whats going on.

dairyairman said:

since our guitar player is so touchy about tempo, i usually let him count us in at the beginning of each song, which he is more than happy to do. that way there's no complaining from him about tempo unless i speed up.

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Nice. No need for the drummer to count in every time IMO if someone else in the band has great time. In an 80s band I was in our guitarist had perfect time in the same way as singers can have perfect pitch. If he'd been more assertive at times he could have saved me from setting the band on an adrenaline-charged trip!

Having a refined sense of tempo is one of the great unsung skills that good drummers possess. Using electronic devices to keep yourself on track is an option I suppose, but I'd

rather totally own that skillset. It's a matter of not letting adrenaline and excitement mess w/ that tempo mechanism. Detaching a bit works wonders for me, not getting caught up in

it all. Recordings prove time and time again that getting caught up in it feels good but sounds questionable. I use the analogy of the beer brewer...He's not allowed to imbibe of

the beer, because he has to make the beer. I'm not allowed to "get into it" so that the audience can. It sounds backwards but it's the only way for me.