Jazz drummers - having to lose the beat?

Davo-London

Gold Member
Why oh why do Jazz drummers feel obligated to spend an entire performance trying to obscure where the beat is?

I saw Brad Mehldau last night. Brad was absolutely wonderful. His bassist was rock solid. His drummer was awful. I mean mind-numbingly, painfully, drive-you-up-the-wall awful.

At every opportunity he would break the beat, he would do polyrhythms, he would stop for a crotchet on beat 2 and come in on beat 3 giving the impression he was at the beginning of a bar. He would play the bass drum like it was snare, maybe hitting the bass drum12 times/bar - this was at such a low volume thankfully you couldn't hear it. He had three rides, 2 of which sounded like trash cans and the bell sounded like a tin box. He played with plastic brushes, which were dull and didn't create that atypical sound.

But the biggest crime of all was at a peak of a song, with the keys and bass at full tilt, he didn't join in - content to just playing counter-beats and forever changing the tones so that there was never ever a sense of groove.

This should be made a criminal offence.

Davo
 
Why oh why do Jazz drummers feel obligated to spend an entire performance trying to obscure where the beat is?

Because they can :)

Seriously, it depends on the drummer. Jazz drummers are a diverse group with different approaches.

What were the qualities of this drummer that prompted BM to choose him over others? BM might have been looking more for flow and counterpoint than clarity.
 
Brad has such a wonderful touch, so delicate, so powerful, so melodic that it is truly beyond my imagination why he would choose such a fussy and annoying drummer.

Davo
 
Well, I love Jeff Ballard, so I may not be the guy to ask. But I would suggest that the problem may not lie with the drummer.:)
 
i watched polly's video, and a couple others as well, and i have to say i was blown away! i loved jeff ballard's playing! he is busy for sure, but i thought what he was doing complimented what the others were playing very well. it was fun to see how far "out there" they'd all get, building tension with crazy syncopations and polyrhythms, and then all fall back in line at the end of the solos. brilliant!

i loved the super dry sound of his cymbals too! what are those? k customs? they sound amazing!
 
Why oh why do Jazz drummers feel obligated to spend an entire performance trying to obscure where the beat is?

I saw Brad Mehldau last night. Brad was absolutely wonderful. His bassist was rock solid. His drummer was awful. I mean mind-numbingly, painfully, drive-you-up-the-wall awful.

At every opportunity he would break the beat, he would do polyrhythms, he would stop for a crotchet on beat 2 and come in on beat 3 giving the impression he was at the beginning of a bar. He would play the bass drum like it was snare, maybe hitting the bass drum12 times/bar - this was at such a low volume thankfully you couldn't hear it. He had three rides, 2 of which sounded like trash cans and the bell sounded like a tin box. He played with plastic brushes, which were dull and didn't create that atypical sound.

But the biggest crime of all was at a peak of a song, with the keys and bass at full tilt, he didn't join in - content to just playing counter-beats and forever changing the tones so that there was never ever a sense of groove.

This should be made a criminal offence.

Davo

Did you prefer Jorge Rossy?

GB
 
There is a name for Jazz drummers that don't "Obscure The Beat"
They are called Rock Drummers!
I do understand what you mean. Sometimes you wish that a Jazz drummer would back it down and pocket it up just a bit during a performance!
 
I am jealous that you got to see Jeff Ballard play with that trio, he is such an incredible drummer. All that displacement and modulation you talk of takes a lot of skill, and Jeff uses it musically and with extreme skill. If you don't like it then you're listening to the wrong type of music.
 
Just because you don't get a style of drumming doesn't mean it's bad, "wrong", or anything else. I personally think it's a crime when you see a jazz band, and the drummer is not well versed in jazz, and does a lot of straight "spang spang-a-lang" ride stuff and quarters on the bass. Sometimes, you even see snare on 2 and 4 on every song, like a rock drummer just pretending to play jazz. Now THAT'S where the crime is.
 
I myself love Jeff Ballards playing from the recordings of him that I own. Could be the sound of the room, where you were sitting or possibly he was not at his best for some reason. Sometimes improv that takes a lot of chances will just miss. Hard to believe that JB at his worst would be less than impressive though.
 
There is a place just south of Biloxi Mississippi where all of the lost beats from jazz drummers are stored.

I really hate it when jazz drummers play downbeats but there's nothing wrongs with that. I used to hate it more. I saw Peter Ersdkine last night and at one spot he was playing on the two and it just irked me. I guess I'm the other extreme. I know where the two and four are. Don't need to hear it.

There is name for those guys that play back beasts. They call them smooth jazz drummers. Big Band drummers play the two and four a lot as well. But even Irv Cottler will imply three over the four. In jazz, you not only have syncopation but implied time where you can imply a different sense of meter or even just imply a rhythm or the back beat rather than play it straight out, or imply a melody, head or phrase.

I am jealous that you got to see Jeff Ballard play with that trio, he is such an incredible drummer. All that displacement and modulation you talk of takes a lot of skill, and Jeff uses it musically and with extreme skill. If you don't like it then you're listening to the wrong type of music.

He's going to find he loves it.:)
 
There is a place just south of Biloxi Mississippi where all of the lost beats from jazz drummers are stored.

I really hate it when jazz drummers play downbeats but there's nothing wrongs with that. I used to hate it more. I saw Peter Ersdkine last night and at one spot he was playing on the two and it just irked me. I guess I'm the other extreme. I know where the two and four are. Don't need to hear it.

There is name for those guys that play back beasts. They call them smooth jazz drummers. Big Band drummers play the two and four a lot as well. But even Irv Cottler will imply three over the four. In jazz, you not only have syncopation but implied time where you can imply a different sense of meter or even just imply a rhythm or the back beat rather than play it straight out, or imply a melody, head or phrase.



He's going to find he loves it.:)

Ramsey Lewis had an interesting take on different types of jazz. There is jazz for jazz fans and there is jazz that anyone can enjoy. He tried to appeal to the latter.
 
Hi
I checked this video out..This guy is a world class drummer!!!!!!!!!!!! Amazing,great touch! I would say it just not your taste or style. Denis
 
I'd say its safe to say that whoever was playing with Brad {probably Jeff since they're currently on tour} that problem lies not with the player but the listenser in this case. Jeff''s one of most musical and advanced in modern concepts on the kit players in acoustic jazz on the planet players at the moment.

So many people have big misunderstandings and misconceptions with the drummers role in modern jazz settings and in particular CONCEPTUALLY speaking in understanding the role and approach of the drummer in relation to the greater music taking place on the spot. Many new to hearing this type of concept at first don't get it and slam the drummer for what he's doing rather than stepping back for a second to see if it the listener who needs to spend a bit more time to be in "tune" with the process at hand.

Groove, swing, time, implied time, active/pro-active, over the bar line phrasing, call and response, tension and release, metric modulation etc.. etc.. can all be going on from contributions from EVERYONE in the group in a improv based setting either in modern tune based or free jazz settings not just the drummer on more deeper subtle levels which at first may seem like random chaos to the untrained ear. Certainly the drummer is the one in most cases who gets the blamed first for this when things don't appear to be simply laid out to understand in a more straight forward manner within the jazz ensemble music for the listener. The drummer doesn't have to hammer out the basic time/groove for everyone to play over in more evolved styles of modern jazz music and the related drummers role in that since the greater dialoque of time, feel and groove is being created by everyone listening to each other to achieve a more layered ensemble concept in many cases to create the sound of one idea and focus for the music as a whole. The drummer and others in the ensemble can being grooving like crazy but not laid in a way that seems obvious at first but it is none the less in most cases based on the conceptual approach developed to playing the music.


Take a deeper listen..............
 
In response to Ken's post.

At the moment I'm playing in a semi-big-band situation (eg. no brass, but lots of Saxophones) and in that situation you HAVE to play the two and the four, especially as it's an amateur ensembles. Otherwise, the band (who are concentrating a little too hard on reading the music) lose the conductor's downbeat! Otherwise, I largely agree with most of your sentiment regarding the 'obvious' of phrasing.
 
I think the question is - do musicians play the way they do because it is "not cool" to play traditionally? I saw a certain jazz artist the other week. The entire time there was no swing - not really fusion, but no swing. The form was not recognizable and there was a harmonizer on the horn, making it sound pretty weird. Now the players were great, but the music was a bit out there. I looked around and it seemed like the audience was pretending to get it - maybe thinking that they were not real jazz fans if they didn't understand it.

It leads me to something that Wynton Marsalis talked about in his book. He said that after Charlie Parker came along, it became uncool to play in the former fashion. Piano players no longer played stride piano. Players stopped doing the "counterpoitnt" or dixieland style of multiple horns playing together. Were musicians afraid of honoring a tradition? And did they get so caught up in playing like Charlie Parker that they didn't really understand where Parker came from? Wynton's point - should we start at Charlie Parker since that's all people were playing? Of course not - start at the beginning so you can understand the progression.

Also - many jazz musicians think that they need to like all jazz to be considered a real jazzer. If you like rock music, but don't like a certain rock band, you are no less of a rock fan/musician, right? So it is OK to not like a certain jazz artist or subgenre of jazz.

Jeff
 
I think that's really important Jeff. How do you play in the style and what are the elements and conventions of the style? I was listening a while back to a lot of Buddy for this very reason, to see how much and when he uses the back beat.

Here's Buddy using a "Mersey beat," so this was 'around' even before rock n roll.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFloJkNa-Rc

When new things come along, you don't have to like them; but it is best to try to understand them.

Just to show that Jeff can play a back beat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_SQqXXZE2w
 
Just to show that Jeff can play a back beat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_SQqXXZE2w

It's ALL about approaching ANYTHING within the given individual framework of context, concept and the related content.... remove one or more of this important elements from the listening/playing mix then its a open crapshoot for understanding the true INTENT behind the playing per individual situations especially in a music with a more evolved/implied approach to a group dialoque/interactions at times in play like modern jazz music and group playing.

When I first heard Elvin with Trane when I was 17 I clearly "didn't get it" and let ALL my musical peers within earshot know that in a very NEGATIVE way. A year later when I was 18 thanks to a older musical mentor jazz musician who crossed my path I did "get it" and some bigtime and I sure sure felt like a complete idiot for my firm opinions on his drumming and the jazz music in general I was telling everyone about before developing a better appreciation and ear for conceptually approaching the elements of enjoying the same very drumming and music in question in a much more POSITIVE manner.

Keep it real and honest is the goal of the players making the music.... nothing more they can do on their end. The listeners at first exposure to something new need to spend more time to come to a better grip of a understanding of it which can develope a far better enjoyment of what is presented which a first impression maybe not be correct for what is really going down like in my own experience I just made reference to.
 
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