i will not play for free - none of us should.

Anon La Ply said:
As for doctors and lawyers, if they are practice medicine and law as an enjoyable hobby that can augment their income, then maybe they won't be fussed about being paid?
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Nice analogy Grea :)

Without a doubt, if it's your job to be a drummer, and it is your main source of income, you shouldn't play for free... you don't go to see a doctor or a lawyer and expect to receive free treatments, you know you'll have to pay a fee... the same applies to professional musicians.

You may want to play a gig for free to support a charity you wish to support, to contribute and help into what they're doing, except that you'll have to be paid, you have a family to feed, bills to pay, children to raise and it all cost money.

Now, for the hobbyists, they already earn a living elsewhere, within their "daily" work, so getting paid for playing music is not an absolute "must", their priorities is to play their music live, with an audience, and enjoying themselves, any money recieved is just an added bonus, not a necessity.

I've been paid for most of the gigs I've done in my life, but we're not talking the kind of money to earn a living, just some extra pocket money.
 
In terms of free downloading and distribution of music, I think that's an entirely different thing.

With that, you can set your own price and the ball is in your court. If you are a distributing yourself over the Internet then it is up to you to negotiate your fee with yourself. If you are going through iTunes, then it's a different story - or the same with any label.

I distribute what little I write freely because I would like to see others take what I do and advance the ideas and concepts. What I write is not commercial nor is it going to get great recognition outside of the genres I work in. As a result, I don't really care if the music makes money or not - then again, I'm not a professional musician and compose in my spare time. For me, the concept of what I do is more important than making money from it and, again, conceptually I would much rather that the idea is spread and advanced.

If I were writing music for a living and writing commercially viable music with brand recognition and bills to pay, it would be a different story. I would expect people to pay for it. It's a two-sided argument in this regard because I personally choose to spend my free time composing and writing music. It's not my livelihood.

If I were contracted to write, I would expect a fee.

When I play out, as far as I'm concerned, I'm being hired by an outside agent and therefore would expect renumeration.
 
There is this band at my high school that plays at a Laser Tag place. Their payment is a free game of laser tag. So I tried telling them they were being used and they refused to believe it because they are now according to them "a giging band", when this is their first show in which they are not even paid. They have to bring their own crowd too. So in other words, they bring all their own equipment, bring people, perform, and get paid with a game of laser tag. All they did was bring more people and then the business doesn't even have to pay, they just make more money. I don't blame the business for the stupidity of people.
 
Both bands I'm in want to get paid yet we only have maybe 20 songs for each band, not enough to do a full night of playing at a bar which is usually 4 sets. In addition we have no following lol....so if we can't draw a crowd yet so that the bar owner makes money why should we make money?

That's how I see it and I'm just being realistic.

I would love to get paid for playing a gig, but only when we are in demand. Until that time comes and if it ever comes we will be luck to get paid $50.00 for the whole band and I'm fine with it.

I just enjoy drumming and playing with my bands. The peanuts we can make really means nothing to me.
 
I will make a comparison that many of you here will not like. My brother's hobby is playing rugby. He plays on a club team in Texas, meaning his teams teams talent level is slightly above the grade school level. He plays about 20 games a year, and all for free. He pays for his own uniforms, cleats, travel, medical insurance, everything. And he does all this because he loves it. He has a day job and makes good money, so its no big deal to him.

I see playing the drums in much the same way. I don't do it for the money, I do it for the love of playing. So I will play for free if the situation is right, and I am not ashamed to say that I have played for free in the past.

However, I will not play for free if somebody is making money off of my playing. If the club is full, and drinks are being bought because the band is good, then I deserve a cut of that. But, as with everything its all relative, and depends on the situation.
 
I don't do drumming for the money. I will take it however and I do expect some monetary compensation for what I bring to the table. For me I wouldn't play at all unless the other players are of a certain calibre. But the main reason I decided to not do freebies anymore (when others are making money) is the effect it has on the devaluation of what it is we do. It's a principle thing. It hurts musicians as a whole to play free. It's not globally responsible or fair to the guys who are trying to scratch out a living in music. I don't want to be party to anything that devalues musicians. We are a treasure. Imagine a life without music. Scary, right? It's one of the only things that separate us from lower life forms, like greedy bar owners or certain laser tag venue owners.

We, meaning musicians as a whole, have shot ourselves in the foot by allowing it to get to this point in the first place. It would take a hell of a unified movement to go back to how it used to be, if that's even possible. The only thing you can do is to not perpetuate it in your own life, and encourage others to do the same. For the greater good. Playing free hurts your self respect, hurts the way others value your music, and is an open invitation to allow people to use you. Playing free is exactly like being a chump. Still feel good about playing free?

Try imagining that instead of getting 20 bucks ....which you might spend on beer anyway....you get paid like 300 at the end of the night. It would up the bar, it would up the musicianship, it would be good all around. OK I'm dreaming but so were the Wright Brothers.
 
larryace said:
Try imagining that instead of getting 20 bucks ....which you might spend on beer anyway....you get paid like 300 at the end of the night. It would up the bar, it would up the musicianship, it would be good all around. OK I'm dreaming but so were the Wright Brothers.
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Well, realistically Larry, you're not too far off. The standard union contract for side musicians is around $175 per day rate, leaders get a bit more. The guys in the studios are doing $300 easy for a three-hour session. The problem is breaking into that group of people enough so you're actually living off of it, and don't need another job to actually pay your bills, take care of your health care, etc.,...if that's happening, then you can brag about being a working musician ;)

I get the union paper every now and then and orchestras run ads looking for certain players, and I think one of them was boasting a starting salary of $55K a year. It's not a lot, but definitely something you can live off of. So the thing is, if those types of gigs exist, what's stopping people from training up and eventually getting good enough to go out for jobs like that? Absolutely nothing. If you want it bad enough, you'll do anything to get it. But of course, if you only say you want to play rock n roll and don't want to study to expand your craft, then why should you get access to those kinds of situations in the first place? People prepare for that kind of work, if you won't do it, somebody will. And like anything, there's going to be more people looking for those jobs than there are jobs, it's just a numbers game. I heard on the news today that WalMart gets about 5 million applications a year, and they can't hire everybody, either.

But of course, the working musicians all say we shouldn't play for free. But how do these very same musicians find out who you are and how you play so they can befriend you and hopefully one day call you to sub in for them? You gotta get out and play, or you're paying them for lessons here and there, which is like playing for free in an insidious way. The "you gotta pay your dues" general and cliche'd statement certainly applies here too. The situation for musicians may never change in our lifetimes, so people do what they gotta do. It's why people live, right? Can you imagine if you had nothing else to look forward to except digging ditches for the rest of your life? Music for most of us provides hope and gets us out of whatever ruts we may be in. Unless playing music is your particular rut.
 
Bad Tempered Clavier said:
Name me one major act that spent the first few years playing crappy venues for no money. It leads to nothing. Good thread - I got that link from the MU this week: I couldn't believe that Cafe Rouge scam. Utterly shameless.
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Um, careful, how about Rush, The Police....likely many others. Sure they were young and it did quickly become a commercial enterprise for them, but they were desperate to be heard at first.

I agree it has gotten out of hand. I was all for playing benefits until the last one, at a small venue, and the woman running it passed a hat around for $$ and had the nerve or stupidity to pass it to me, when I was clearly in the band, and paying already with my time and effort.

They have now shown that many of these big charities, use up more cash in admin then they do on research. BUT as for curing diseases, its a long row to hoe, don't be down on the people trying. The people working are researchers, not the networking 'benefit' people (many of whom are socialites with motives to do benefits). Diseases are extremely complicated so we can't say "if we wanted to cure it it would have been done by now".
 
eclipseownzu said:
I will make a comparison that many of you here will not like. My brother's hobby is playing rugby. He plays on a club team in Texas, meaning his teams teams talent level is slightly above the grade school level. He plays about 20 games a year, and all for free. He pays for his own uniforms, cleats, travel, medical insurance, everything. And he does all this because he loves it. He has a day job and makes good money, so its no big deal to him.

I see playing the drums in much the same way. I don't do it for the money, I do it for the love of playing. So I will play for free if the situation is right, and I am not ashamed to say that I have played for free in the past.

However, I will not play for free if somebody is making money off of my playing. If the club is full, and drinks are being bought because the band is good, then I deserve a cut of that. But, as with everything its all relative, and depends on the situation.
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Sorry but your example is apples and oranges.Your brothers Rugby playing is recreation.When you take up a musical instrument,its takes money,time,lessons and talent and endless practice to get good enough that you're now at a level where you can play in front of people.Not to mention the expence and maintaince of the instrument

Did your brother ever pay for Rugby lessons? As I recall the rugby uniform isn't all that expensive.Also is your brothers playing on a low level team taking bread out of another players mouth?Is there a player he's cutting out,that should be getting paid to play on that team?You've said that they are a low level team,so obviously there not talented enough to play semi or professionally.So who's going to pay to see them play?

You also said your brother has a full time job.To a lot of musicians ...playing IS their full time job.Do you think a club owner will pay a good pro band to play,if he can get amatures for free?Who cares if the amature band is just ok.Do you see the difference ?If the club owner dosen't have to pay the band...where do you think that moneys going?

If you're in a club,playing for free...of course somebodys making money off of you.The band/musician is what's getting people into the club to begin with.You are the draw.

That's great that your drums are your hobby,but there are plenty of guys that play for a living.That's their livelihood.Thats whats pays the bills.Amature/hobby players who play for free or some drinks are killing it for the career musician/band.

Steve B
 
larryace said:
I don't do drumming for the money. I will take it however and I do expect some monetary compensation for what I bring to the table. For me I wouldn't play at all unless the other players are of a certain calibre. But the main reason I decided to not do freebies any more (when others are making money) is the effect it has on the devaluation of what it is we do. It's a principle thing. It hurts musicians as a whole to play free. It's not globally responsible or fair to the guys who are trying to scratch out a living in music.
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Coincidentally I ran this line of thought - that's been aired here many times - past our singer a couple of nights ago and he, like me, rejected the notion unequivocally. That's akin to pros deciding to play for less to avoid pricing lesser musicians out of the market.

These days, if I don't play for free in the current climate (or what I think of as worse - insult money) then I don't play. Pro drummers have already beaten me to my childhood dream and now they want me to stop altogether to avoid affecting their income?? My answer to that would not be permitted on a public forum. Personally, I think the places that put on "free" music aren't places pros would play at anyway. No doubt there's some overlap, but the scenes are not the same.

Completely agree with Eclipse's rugby analogy - like music, sport is both a hobby and paid entertainment, the main difference is more people do it, it's far, far, far more lucrative than the arts, and they enjoy lucrative government support. Steve, people certainly do put silly money and effort into sporting achievement, just as we do in music. The analogy is spot on.
 
And that's exactly why we have this situation to deal with. There are so many people willing to play for free, and defending playing for free. If all my electrical competition would work free then I'd be screwed. Same thing. I do understand the logic, but it's way short sighted. If you want to play free, you can do that at rehearsal. If you want to play free for people, you can busk. Playing in places for free, that traditionally used to pay, is detrimental to the whole music scene, from a musicians POV, like scabs crossing picket lines. It's not helping anything. There's no way you can convince me it's helping the big picture. It's way short sighted. I also have to disagree with the analogy of pro musicians working for less so as not to price lesser musicians out of the market. I don't think you can compare pro gigs to this situation. I think that this issue is mainly for bar bands, who aren't headlining major venues. The pros don't have to deal with this at pro level gigs. It's everyone else that this issue affects, which includes the majority of people on this forum. Amateurs, guys like me, outnumber the pros by at least a 1000 to one.
 
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PeteN said:
Both bands I'm in want to get paid yet we only have maybe 20 songs for each band, not enough to do a full night of playing at a bar which is usually 4 sets. In addition we have no following lol....so if we can't draw a crowd yet so that the bar owner makes money why should we make money?

That's how I see it and I'm just being realistic.

I would love to get paid for playing a gig, but only when we are in demand. Until that time comes and if it ever comes we will be luck to get paid $50.00 for the whole band and I'm fine with it.

I just enjoy drumming and playing with my bands. The peanuts we can make really means nothing to me.
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I totally disagree.Paying a live band as well as paying performance rights fees are the cost of doing business.There is no difference between paying the band or the electric bill.he has to but liquior,soda food,,pay his employees,pay for air conditioning ,heat water.

Its all in the cost of doing business.If you own a venue that features live music,then you should expect to PAY for that live music.Not convince not well knowns that you can't pay them,but it's "good exposure"BS.The same goes for not having a following .BS

Those are just the crap owners tell bands to keep their bottom line fatter than the responsible owner who pays a band a fair wage for a good nights work.

Steve B
 
There is a difference of playing for free to get yourself out there and just playing for free when someone has the money but doesn't want to pay you and wants free entertainment. I play free shows because of my love for performing, do I get paid sometimes? Yes. If everyone went around playing for free you wouldn't even have the bands and icons you listen to. Just mass competition and no distinguished musicians. If no one makes money there's no such thing as skill statures, everyone's just a musician regardless of their skills. People are paid based on their skills and abilities and a career in music in general would not be a real career anymore. It's the same as any other business, if McDonald's gave out free food all the time would they be a successful business? People would know about them (of course almost everyone does it's just an example) but would they be in business if they gave away their inventory? They have to pay for their food to sell. We have to pay for our gear, spend money on gas and possibly a place to sleep and we wouldn't even get a courtesy night at a hotel or a gas card? Just a "You guys did great" and an enthusiastic hi-five or something along those lines.
 
larryace said:
And that's exactly why we have this situation to deal with. There are so many people willing to play for free, and defending playing for free. If all my electrical competition would work free then I'd be screwed. Same thing. I do understand the logic, but it's way short sighted. If you want to play free, you can do that at rehearsal. If you want to play free for people, you can busk. Playing in places for free, that traditionally used to pay, is detrimental to the whole music scene, from a musicians POV, like scabs crossing picket lines. It's not helping anything. There's no way you can convince me it's helping the big picture. It's way short sighted.
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+1. The Rugby analogy is something totally different. If the place I am playing at is making money, then I am making money!
 
larryace said:
And that's exactly why we have this situation to deal with. There are so many people willing to play for free, and defending playing for free. If all my electrical competition would work free then I'd be screwed. Same thing. I do understand the logic, but it's way short sighted. If you want to play free, you can do that at rehearsal. If you want to play free for people, you can busk. Playing in places for free, that traditionally used to pay, is detrimental to the whole music scene, from a musicians POV, like scabs crossing picket lines. It's not helping anything. There's no way you can convince me it's helping the big picture. It's way short sighted.
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You have it the wrong way around Larry - pros should charge much less so that music can be affordable for all venues everywhere. You guys priced us small timers out of the market and the only moral course of action is to take one for the team.

Not only that, but you priced musicians everywhere out of venues and now most venues prefer gaming machines ...

No, I don't believe that either. Both premises are self-defeating foolishness (with all due respect :).

What we have are powerful parasitic forces in society that have squeezed the arts to the point where we are inclined to blame each other for "scabbing" the scraps left for us by the gaming machine companies and the crasser end of the plastic music business.

So artist is pitted against artist, making us even weaker (united we stand etc) while the parasites scoop up the remains of the arts' carcass.

Ideally, we'd be bigger than this - understand that everyone is just trying to do what they want and need to do - and work together on lobbying against the lack of regulation (at least of gaming machines, we're regulated enough) that seem to have affected music scenes in much of the western world.

BTW, busking is expensive - $40 per person per local govt area. To play in our local areas, for a 5-piece band that would be about $1600 per year, not counting public liability insurance.
 
larryace said:
It would take a hell of a unified movement to go back to how it used to be, if that's even possible.
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...mmmh Larry, for as long as I remember, bands playing for beer money always existed, even ages before I started drumming, the "how it's used to be" seems very similar nowadays, there's pro musicians and there's hobbyists, I cannot see any major changes to this in any given future.

Bo Eder said:
Music for most of us provides hope and gets us out of whatever ruts we may be in. Unless playing music is your particular rut.
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Absolutely, it's our escape "time out" of the world we live in, the precious moments were we all forget our troubles, for me drumming is not a job, it's purely pleasure, another world alongside the world we live in.

Anon La Ply said:
These days, if I don't play for free in the current climate (or what I think of as worse - insult money) then I don't play. Pro drummers have already beaten me to my childhood dream and now they want me to stop altogether to avoid affecting their income?? My answer to that would not be permitted on a public forum.
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Mine would not be permitted either... no offence to all the pros and working musicians, but we are talking about music, feel and emotions and sharing it with the musicians we play with and an audience, it's not a crime... we're not doctors or surgeons doing a hobbyist approach of real doctors and surgeons, what we're doing is playing music and it's pretty safe and we're not putting our audiences in danger, the only "bad" thing is we only getting paid "beer money", whatever you guys think, I need that fix, I need to play, without it my life would be boring.
 
tamadrm said:
Sorry but your example is apples and oranges.Your brothers Rugby playing is recreation.When you take up a musical instrument,its takes money,time,lessons and talent and endless practice to get good enough that you're now at a level where you can play in front of people.Not to mention the expence and maintaince of the instrument

Did your brother ever pay for Rugby lessons? As I recall the rugby uniform isn't all that expensive.Also is your brothers playing on a low level team taking bread out of another players mouth?Is there a player he's cutting out,that should be getting paid to play on that team?You've said that they are a low level team,so obviously there not talented enough to play semi or professionally.So who's going to pay to see them play?

You also said your brother has a full time job.To a lot of musicians ...playing IS their full time job.Do you think a club owner will pay a good pro band to play,if he can get amatures for free?Who cares if the amature band is just ok.Do you see the difference ?If the club owner dosen't have to pay the band...where do you think that moneys going?

If you're in a club,playing for free...of course somebodys making money off of you.The band/musician is what's getting people into the club to begin with.You are the draw.

That's great that your drums are your hobby,but there are plenty of guys that play for a living.That's their livelihood.Thats whats pays the bills.Amature/hobby players who play for free or some drinks are killing it for the career musician/band.

Steve B
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i dont agree with this. if you want to play for free then play for free. theres no need to feel guilty about it.

if people want to make money from music then thats fine. they'd better be good enough to warrant charging money when others don't want to.

sometimes i play for free. sometimes i get paid. each gig is different and i decide which gigs i want and which gigs i don't. as i get better i'll start taking more paid gigs and do less playing for free. if you're good enough then you can make money. if you don't have paid gig offers then there's no point in complaining about it. just get better and make opportunities happen.

music isn't like plumbing. its an art. people don't fix pipes for kicks. if you want to make money from something you love then that takes effort. either make the effort or make compromises. thats what lifes all about.
 
The arts are being squeezed because we allow ourselves to be squeezed. At least on our level. I blame us totally, myself included because I'm guilty of it too. Yea, if we refuse to play free someone else will. At least we aren't perpetuating the problem. Playing free at a party is a different story than playing free in a bar. I'd say if you must play free, do so at a party, or another place that isn't going to harm the big picture.

Instead of relying on bars and booking gigs the traditional way, perhaps musicians should be looking into renting a place, charge a small admission for the music, have drinks and food, provided by others, at prices they set (over and above the admission charges, with a very small percentage given to the booker to cover rent and insurance) and do it that way. Admission covers the band, the percentage of the food and drink covers the hall rental, insurance and other expenses. Money just may be able to be made with that scenario. It would require enough attendance though. At least the musicians would be in charge of things though.

I could see this happening, about 10 bands get together and rotate at the same venue, so it becomes an established thing that on Friday and Saturdays (for example) there's live music to be had at XYZ hall on Main St.

What with free internet advertising I'd say this would be like taking the bull by the horns.

We need to adapt because playing free is not appealing to me.
 
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