THE "BIG" JAZZ THREAD

Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

OZjazzer said:
OK Gregg and others, before Jarrett is completely buried I would offer this Jazz Times article in his defence. Is this whiny or just simply fussy? By the way, as I understand it, sound checks are just a reference point for a concert. As soon as bodies fill seats many things change including the sound on stage. That's what sorts the good engineers from the bad. I've attended performances in the states and Europe as well as here and more often than not I have witnessed performers trying to get the sound guy to change things during a performance. Maybe I have been unlucky and copped all the bad engineers. Anyway in the light of this debate I re-read the article and came out of it enlightened. Hope this link works.

I remember reading that article before. It didn't change my mind. He's fussy, yeah, but a lot of us are and that's not the same as whiny. I also remember an interview where he basically said he was trying to go out of his way to show everyone he wasn't a complete a*****e, the problem was, he ended up acting like one anyway! If I can find the magazine, I'll type it up, I don't think it was too long.
Yes, soundcheck is relative to when people come in, but don't you agree there is a good way and a bad way to tell the engineer he's doing something wrong?
Furthermore, Eicher does not record all of KJ performances personally or they would all sound good as Eicher would make certain, which leads to my last point: why doesn't KJ hire his own sound guy for pete's sake!? I mean, the guy rarely plays, only ever plays with the same 2 people and only ever plays giant halls. I'm sure he, or Eicher could work it out monetarily since he's only doing a handful of shows a year or so.

The article illustrates nothing that we are saying, only that KJ is an audiophile with huge ears. Each time I've seen him, it hasn't been a sound issue, it's been something else and there are plenty of other documented and eyewitness cases to spport this.

By the way, here's a quote from KJ on Stu's man, Wynton:
"Wynton imitates other people's styles too well," he says. "You can't learn to imitate everyone else without a real deficit. I've never heard anything Wynton played sound like it meant anything at all. Wynton has no voice and no presence. His music sounds like a talented high-school trumpet player to me. He plays things really, really,really badly that you cannot screw up unless you are a bad player. I've felt embarrassed listening to him, and I'm white. Behind his humble speech, there is an incredible arrogance. And for a great black player who talks about the blues - I've never heard Wynton play the blues convincingly, and I'd challenge him to a blues standoff any time. He's jazzy the same way someone who drives a BMW is sporty."
He may be whiny, but I do love the guy=)
I'd also like to bag on Jarrett for one thing. I mentioned it in passing, but no one caught it earlier. I've stated my feelings on KJ and his music and do think he's brilliant, but I think it's lame that he's only played with the same 2 guys for how long? Not since 1980 has he appeared in a Jazz context with anyone other than Jack and Gary (Deer Head Inn doesn't count, it was a one off live show and GARY was still on it!) While Gary and Jack are brilliant, that trio is brilliant and keeping a concept that long is admirable, the idea that KJ isn't doing anything outside those guys and hasn't in 26 or so years is, in my book, lame. Sure, sure, say 'why would he?', well, you missed my point then=)
But that's my opinion.

G
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

jazzgregg said:
I've stated my feelings on KJ and his music and do think he's brilliant, but I think it's lame that he's only played with the same 2 guys for how long? Not since 1980 has he appeared in a Jazz context with anyone other than Jack and Gary (Deer Head Inn doesn't count, it was a one off live show and GARY was still on it!) While Gary and Jack are brilliant, that trio is brilliant and keeping a concept that long is admirable, the idea that KJ isn't doing anything outside those guys and hasn't in 26 or so years is, in my book, lame. Sure, sure, say 'why would he?', well, you missed my point then=)
But that's my opinion.

G
Maybe that says something though. Apparently Jack adn Gary could stand to play with him for 26 years, so maybe behind the scenes he really isnt as bad as you think. Do you really think they wouldve stuck around if he was a total jerk?
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

brittc89 said:
Maybe that says something though. Apparently Jack adn Gary could stand to play with him for 26 years, so maybe behind the scenes he really isnt as bad as you think. Do you really think they wouldve stuck around if he was a total jerk?

Well, for one, they don't rehearse so they don't have to get along, they just have to play. They are professionals, being buddies and getting along have nothing to do with delivering the goods. Two, I have heard from a number of sources they definately don't get along with Keith. Three, I've also heard they get paid something like 5k a show but whether or not this is true, they are ALL well paid for each trio show as it's one of the most recognized Jazz bands today. Same with albums, good money indeed. Four, speaking of money, money. Five, if KJ called ME up to play, don't you think I'd say yes, whether I think KJ is a whiny ***** or not? I realize that some of this is heresay, however, the main points are there. Watch the 'Art of Improvisation', anytime they are all in the same room and are not playing music or talking about an arrangement, they ignore each other.
Besides, it isn't Jack and Gary that I'm talking about, THEY do plenty of other stuff!
G
 
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Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

jazzgregg said:
Well, for one, they don't rehearse so they don't have to get along, they just have to play. They are professionals, being buddies and getting along have nothing to do with delivering the goods. Two, I have heard from a number of sources they definately don't get along with Keith. Three, I've also heard they get paid something like 5k a show but whether or not this is true, they are ALL well paid for each trio show as it's one of the most recognized Jazz bands today. Same with albums, good money indeed. Four, speaking of money, money. Five, if KJ called ME up to play, don't you think I'd say yes, whether I think KJ is a whiny ***** or not? I realize that some of this is heresay, however, the main points are there. Watch the 'Art of Improvisation', anytime they are all in the same room and are not playing music or talking about an arrangement, they ignore each other.

G
I knew a guy who was involved with bookings in Europe. Jarrett's group gets bigger bucks than 5K there. Some places its more like double that on the big summer deals like headlining Northsea.

Britt- I think the jazz guys just have more of a mercenary freelance vibe than rock, metal and so on, who seem to have to get along with a band of brothers dynamic. It would be one thing to quit Buddy Rich's band over a fight. In his prime, he was paying $350 a week for a solo trombone player and you had to live on a bus. For two thousand USD per gig plus expenses, I'm going to try to make it work.
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

OZjazzer said:
OK Gregg and others, before Jarrett is completely buried I would offer this Jazz Times article in his defence. Is this whiny or just simply fussy?

Thanks so much for the link Oz. I'm not sure which one it is(whiny or fussy), but after reading the entire article I'm simply exhausted! It's that same kind of feeling I've gotten when I've had a major purchase to make and end up researching it to death. You know -the hundred scraps of paper with calculations scribbled all over them - the buyers guides with all those little pieces of old envelopes for bookmarks - the constant mental game of "Well, that's good, but if I just spend another ten bucks, then heaven is mine Mua ha ha ha!" Then, years later, I find the stuff over in a corner in the basement, covered with dust when I'm clearing things out, and recall, with amazement, the mental gymnastics I went through in the process of obtaining it. Perfectionism. I freely admit I've got a bad case of it, but as I get older, I find that I simply don't have the energy anymore to maintain it. And maybe, just maybe, it was the process and not the object all along....hmmm(?) You see it all over this forum (especially in the 'gear' and 'technique' sections) - the perfect head - the perfect shell - the perfect tuning - that hundredth of an inch adjustment that will allow me entrance to the 'Hall of the Masters" and on and on. It can all be quite interesting and a lot of fun within reason, but can easily get out of hand and become a source of frustration and ultimately, depression, if taken too far. Depending on the individual it can be the impetus for incredible creative realization or, on the other hand, despair, stagnation and, finally, resignation.

It's appears that KJ is a texbook case of a perfectionist who, by way of his 'condition', has given the world a marvelous body of work and a substantial artistic contribution. Like some others here, though, I do believe that certain impulses must remain in check and, like it or not, there are 'rules' for live performance. Stopping in mid- song to tinker with the sound (unless it's just totally screwed up to the point you can't perform) is, in my opinion, a severe violation of that performer/audience dynamic mentioned earlier. No hope for the 'perfect' concert experience is possible at that point.

EDIT: In reference to the earlier posts about the Fripp incident, while I in no way condone his action, the violation was initially from a member of the audience and not the performer.
 
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Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

I LUUUUUV this thread! It just keeps gaining momentum (just like a couple of bass players I know)

Gregg that's a fantastic quote from Jarrett about our beloved Wynton. He summed him up beautifully and best of all, it comes from a guy with the jazz muscle to make the words sting.

As for the KJ article I thought it was well worth including. What I should have pointed out is that it was in the 'audio' section of the magazine, and was not a 'normal' interview.

And Loge I have just got from the drum shop with yet another pair of over-researched sticks to lay on my very, very, VERY over researched-cymbals so I know that feeling very well (and so does my wife). The bad news is as you get older it gets worse! The other day she said "I swear those cymbals are breeding in that cupboard". I wish.

Britt that's a good point about Jack and Gary. Personally I don't see either of these guys playing with a jerk for that long even if the money is fabulous. After all this is arguably the best piano trio in jazz history.

And Matt, you mean if I had kept up with the trombone all those years ago, I could have got 350 clams a week, lived on a bus AND been balled out regularly by Buddy Rich? It's the story of my life, I just keep making all the wrong moves.
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Keith Jarrett challenging Wynton to a "blues standoff". What is he, 15 years old? (no offense matt, hehe).

Seriously, and you guys think Wynton is a jackass?

Ok, I get that Wynton isn't original, and Wynton is arrogant and Wynton is a self-appointed spokesperson. He isn't my "man". I simply state that he was a big inluence on me as a young player, having the oppurtunity to share the stage with him and he teaching us. It was very cool (and very long ago, 1988). And judging back then, if Wynton is a jerk, then Billy Cobham is a complete grade A jerk. (I don't think that is true at all, but relatively speaking at that time...) Wynton was head and shoulders above Billy as a teacher.

Going back to a stance I still hold: some of us aren't real big fans of the progressive movement in jazz and like our jazz stale and copy cat-ed and unoriginal ;-)

I was thinking, if jazz is supposed to be so forward thinking and cutting-edge, why does the gear never change, and always go back to the "traditional" sound of early jazz drumming?

"Stick with what works" is what I'm feeling here, which is hardly a progressive thought at all. Its cool to be forward moving and all, but Jazz more than any other music form always relates back to its roots in one way or the other even WHILE moving forward (man, this is what makes it so great!)

Stu

p.s. to show how ignorant I am, I don't think I've ever heard KJ..suggested listenings please? Ok, floor is open to kill me now...
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Stu_Strib said:
Keith Jarrett challenging Wynton to a "blues standoff". What is he, 15 years old? (no offense matt, hehe).

Seriously, and you guys think Wynton is a jackass?
Have you read what at least I've been saying about KJ?! The difference is, is that KJ hasn't appointed himself anything, isn't detrimental to Jazz music, hasn't done really stupid things like say Coltrane is crap and then record a tribute to him (hypocrite), acted as though he's the representation of Jazz to mankind, mislead people as to what Jazz is, nor is he propagating an idea that isn't his own and acting as though it was. Oh, uh, he makes his own really great music too, also unlike Wyton who doesn't really make his own and when he does, it sure isn't great.


Stu_Strib said:
Going back to a stance I still hold: some of us aren't real big fans of the progressive movement in jazz and like our jazz stale and copy cat-ed and unoriginal ;-)

I was thinking, if jazz is supposed to be so forward thinking and cutting-edge, why does the gear never change, and always go back to the "traditional" sound of early jazz drumming?
Good question. My answer would be that it isn't about the gear, it's about the music. Look at what people can do with a plain old guitar. No modernist wants their stuff to sound like an early Jazz drummer, though, let's be clear. That being said, a drum is a drum. A cymbal is still a piece of metal. Old K cymbals sound good. Why are car racers still racing with cars that only have 4 wheels? The car is almost as old as the drumset. Aside from adding stuff, subtracting stuff, stacking, muffling, blowing through a tube, using chopsticks, self hammering, singing into drums, playing slabs of metal instead of cymbals, adding electronics, playing the snare with your stubble (thak's Fritz Hauser!)pitch bending, bowing, percussion layering, tuning, extended techniques and not even discussing the actual playing of drums, what do you want from a drumset?=)

Also, not all Jazz musicians think it should be cutting edge all the time. I've mentioned I personally studied with one who did not (and it was fantastic). It's a perspective in a larger idea (Jazz).
Stu_Strib said:
Its cool to be forward moving and all, but Jazz more than any other music form always relates back to its roots in one way or the other even WHILE moving forward (man, this is what makes it so great!)
This is true, yes. Of course, if everyone thought like you from the beginning, Stu, we'd ALL be dixielanders. Vinnie would be RIPPING on 'Maple Leaf Rag'.

Now, since I've already gotten over my shock that you like Wynton, the sound of Weckl's drums and Vital Information, I'm actually not too flipped out that you haven't heard KJ=)

Quick rundown: KJ is responsible for 3 major innovative groups and has been part of 2. He was with Charles Lloyd's brilliant quartet (which also included Jack and which I think more people need to check out) and he was part of Miles' electric stuff for a while.
His own contributions are as follows (and I'll reccomend some albums by that group too)

His first trio/Quartet, known as 'The American Quartet': KJ, Charlie Haden, Paul Motian and often Dewey Redman. Active most of the 60's, early 70's. This can get out, you may not like this stuff so much. Maybe 'Somwhere Before'.
-'Somewhere Before' (trio)
-Fort Yawuh' (quartet)
-'Survivor's Suite' (quartet)
-Death and the Flower (quartet)
-Life Between the Exit Signs/BopBe (quartet)
-Expectations (quartet)

What's known as the 'European Quartet'- Jan Garbarek, Jon Christensen (brilliant drummer that too few people know of) and Palle Danielsson. Active late 70's. I am certain you won't really like this stuff, Su, it doesn't swing, it straights.
-'Belonging'
-Nude Ants'
-'My Song'
-'Personal Mountains'

The Trio with Jack and Gary. You know about this one, it's also his most accessable and I'd reccomend most albums from this group to you.
-'Standards vol. 1 and 2
-'Standards Live'
-'Tokyo 96'
-'Whisper Not'
-Live at the Blue Note (box set)
-Bye Bye Blackbird

I also reccomend something I mentioned earlier- 'At The Deer Head Inn' fom the mid 90's with Peacock and Motian. The thing about KJ is that there is alot to choose from and I know others will add to my short list. For you, personally Stu, as I said, the last trio I think you'd like.



G
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

OZjazzer said:
I LUUUUUV this thread! It just keeps gaining momentum (just like a couple of bass players I know)

Britt that's a good point about Jack and Gary. Personally I don't see either of these guys playing with a jerk for that long even if the money is fabulous. After all this is arguably the best piano trio in jazz history.

Oz!!!

Oh man. You can't mean that! Yah I'll argue.

Bill Evans, piano
Scott LaFaro, bass
Paul Motian, drums

Art Tatum, piano
Tiny Grimes, guitar
Slam Stewart, bass

You know Gregg's post got me thinking about alot of Jarrett's very cool compositions like In Your Quiet Place and such. Actually, like Wayne Shorter, I like his writing better than his playing. But I still really love Shorter as a player too.
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Ok, jazzgregg, you passed two of my tests (you correctly responded to my already made up answer to why hasnt' the gear evolved, and secondly, the KJ recommendations.) I do have some Charlie Hunter stuff (trio and quartet) but I don't really care for it too much (but I don't think it has KJ).

And for someone who blames me for not reading YOUR posts, my turn! I already said that on every Vital Info project, I have only managed to keep 2 or 3 tracks from each one. The rest sounds pretty elevatorish to me. But those tracks I keep are some of the best drumming I have in my collection.

Dave Weckls drums sound great. Period. Not for straight jazz (the cymbals alone are dubious there), but for a big thunderous rock/fusion sound, I couldn't think of a kit I'd rather play. The man is a well known perfectionist and techno junkie when it comes to the mixing. Think what one will of his playing, but there is no denying that sound.

And for the last time, I've already said that I completely separate Wynton's personality and politics from his playing. He is an obviously talented trumpet player, and yeah, some guys think he has no soul or whatever, but as a fan of the instrument, I can't think of many others I like better (Freddie Hubbard comes to mind). I'll give you credit for thinking I over rate him as a player, as that is a matter of taste, but please keep all the other non-issues (to me) separate. He can play. Some people don't like him or his playing (I do). He is better than Chris Botti. Clear enough? To steal your line, enough of Wynton already!
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Stu_Strib said:
Ok, jazzgregg, you passed two of my tests (you correctly responded to my already made up answer to why hasnt' the gear evolved, and secondly, the KJ recommendations.) I do have some Charlie Hunter stuff (trio and quartet) but I don't really care for it too much (but I don't think it has KJ).
Tests, eh? Hmm, I'm not amused, had I known, I would've thrown them purposefully.
Charlie who?
Stu_Strib said:
And for someone who blames me for not reading YOUR posts, my turn! I already said that on every Vital Info project, I have only managed to keep 2 or 3 tracks from each one. The rest sounds pretty elevatorish to me. But those tracks I keep are some of the best drumming I have in my collection.
Charlie who?=)
Stu_Strib said:
Dave Weckls drums sound great. Period. Not for straight jazz (the cymbals alone are dubious there), but for a big thunderous rock/fusion sound, I couldn't think of a kit I'd rather play. The man is a well known perfectionist and techno junkie when it comes to the mixing. Think what one will of his playing, but there is no denying that sound.
I do deny it as it is a sterile, 'textbook' drum sound, custom fitted for engineers. Yuck, where are the overtones and warmth? I'd take many people's fusion sound over Weckls anyday. Techno junkie and engineer do not always mix, IMO.
Stu_Strib said:
And for the last time, I've already said that I completely separate Wynton's personality and politics from his playing. He is an obviously talented trumpet player, and yeah, some guys think he has no soul or whatever, but as a fan of the instrument, I can't think of many others I like better (Freddie Hubbard comes to mind). I'll give you credit for thinking I over rate him as a player, as that is a matter of taste, but please keep all the other non-issues (to me) separate. He can play. Some people don't like him or his playing (I do). He is better than Chris Botti. Clear enough? To steal your line, enough of Wynton already!
I was merely comparing him to Jarrett as per the comment you made about how we were bagging on Wynton- you brought it up:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
Keith Jarrett challenging Wynton to a "blues standoff". What is he, 15 years old? (no offense matt, hehe).

Seriously, and you guys think Wynton is a jackass?


Are you with me, Stu?=)
G
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Hunter/Hayden...what's the diff ;-) I'm too busy ripping Joey Jordison in other threads for such miniscule details ;-)

Ok, so the "why hasn't gear advanced" question was a setup..I just wanted to make sure you'd answer how I thought you would...that's the "facilitator" in me. And I'm glad at least you accept the fact that not everyone in the jazz world is so hell-bent on progress. I was getting the general feeling that "jazz dies if don't innovate" and I'm a scumbag for trying to accurately recreate the Take 5 drum solo ;-)

I only brought up Wynton because Jarrett sounded like a 15 year old "challenging" another player to a blues contest.... What is this, Drumline the movie, Jazz edition? Heh.

As for Weckl's drum sound, your jazz bias shines brightly. I don't blame you or even disagree, coming at it with your perspective. I just love the sound of those drums.

As I was typing this an amazing Coltrane track just came on (yeah, old hat to you guys I'm sure, but hear me out..) I'm just gonna guess it has to be Elvin, without even finding the disc (ok, so I don't have the disks, I gave them back) called Impressions (C) from the Village Vanguard recordings (1961).....I think this track pretty much demonstrates why Elvin was a "Jazz Machine"? How in the world would I ever become a Jazz drummer like that? I couldn't learn that stuff he is "improving" if I sat down with it in 2 bar increments for a year!
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Stu_Strib said:
Hunter/Hayden...what's the diff ;-)
Not funny!
Stu_Strib said:
I'm too busy ripping Joey Jordison in other threads for such miniscule details ;-)
LMAO -VERY funny.
Stu_Strib said:
Ok, so the "why hasn't gear advanced" question was a setup..I just wanted to make sure you'd answer how I thought you would...that's the "facilitator" in me. And I'm glad at least you accept the fact that not everyone in the jazz world is so hell-bent on progress. I was getting the general feeling that "jazz dies if don't innovate" and I'm a scumbag for trying to accurately recreate the Take 5 drum solo ;-)
Remember, it's just a different sect. Think of Jazz like religion...er...wait, maybe not.
Some of us are progressives, some aren't. However, in all fairness, I did answer your skill testing question in 2 ways: 1) That it was the music that matters, but also that 2) what we use and how we use the drums have evolved into whatever we need them to do, rather than being restricted by historical example.
Stu_Strib said:
I only brought up Wynton because Jarrett sounded like a 15 year old "challenging" another player to a blues contest.... What is this, Drumline the movie, Jazz edition? Heh.
Hey man, I was just just shifting the blame on to you for mentioning Keith as a person in comparison with Wynton.=) Incedentally, a long time ago on this thread someone mentioned a bad attitude that pervails in Jazz. KJ is exhibiting that adversarial nature of his own personality in that comment. Me? I'd just look at Wynton and point and laugh, at least that way, he could make up that he won the contest or that it wasn't fair because KJ didn't play much like Ellington.
Stu_Strib said:
As for Weckl's drum sound, your jazz bias shines brightly. I don't blame you or even disagree, coming at it with your perspective. I just love the sound of those drums.
So does yours, my good man, so does yours, and same to you about agreeing or disagreeing=)
Stu_Strib said:
As I was typing this an amazing Coltrane track just came on (yeah, old hat to you guys I'm sure, but hear me out..) I'm just gonna guess it has to be Elvin, without even finding the disc (ok, so I don't have the disks, I gave them back) called Impressions (C) from the Village Vanguard recordings (1961).....I think this track pretty much demonstrates why Elvin was a "Jazz Machine"? How in the world would I ever become a Jazz drummer like that? I couldn't learn that stuff he is "improvising" if I sat down with it in 2 bar increments for a year!
Stu, it's not being able to play what Elvin played or how he played it, no one but Elvin can do that. Elvin is not reborn in any of us, no matter how much we want him to be! At the same time, I bet if you had a good JAZZ drum teacher, you could make a lot of progress. Tell you what, you ever want to come visit Toronto, you can stay in my house and I'll teach you for a week straight (at a cut rate=), THEN see if you're still feel that way. But don't get me wrong, we all look at certain musicians and are intimidated, as well we should be but the more you understand the direction and concept (very important) of said musician, it becomes less intimidating and more inspiring, IMO.


G
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Yeah I see your point on Elvin. It is all about finding your own voice. But I have to say, I haven't been moved like that about drumming in a long time. I mean I've heard a lot of Elvin stuff before and other great drummer like that, but for some weird reason, last night I woke up at 2 am and couldn't sleep, so I threw on my iPod. This song came on and it yelled at me: "THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO DO!" It kept me up for 2 hours!

I know I've understressed my jazz ability, but that's just because I don't want to come across as anything I'm not (i.e., a good jazz drummer). I have the basics down well beyond most guys on here, and would LOVE to study this form. It just seems like everytime I have someone to look up to, you guys say "NO! DON'T PLAY LIKE HIM, be yourself!" For me, I have to get enough of a working vocabulary and library of stuff from different drummers to even pretend to start being myself. I know I've done this in the more laid back "light rock/accoustic " drummer Stu, but this is because my library and vocabulary are much more developed here.

Thanks for the cool conversation. I took some time off, because you guys were losing me with some obscure references.
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

I can see both of your points on the Weckl drum sound issue. His drums do sound like the "perfect" ideal of the fusion world, so many fusion guys seem to be going for that particular brand of sound and Weckl has really taken it to the extreme in that respect.

But on the other hand, it was Joey Baron's drum sound that had me running off to the shop to buy some new heads. Much more vital, despite sounding "worse" by the yardstick that Weckl would sound "best".

As for the issue of individuality, in all honesty I think you need to be looking to achieve that all the time. I just can't see what the dividing line is that makes you say "Right! Now I'm ready to play like myself!"

When do you come to that particular crossroads? And how do you know?
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

I have to agree with Stu- As far as THAT sound goes, Weckl's perfect. That being said, I don't really like it and wouldn't want it for me. Different strokes for different folks. I gotta say, I like his Evolution and Legacy cymbals quite a bit though.
As far as individuality goes, I'm a pretty big Elvin freak, and I've done stuff like loop two bar sections of tunes to emulate his swing feel. It's very, very hard to do. I remember my old teacher gave me an assignment to practice four bars of Elvin time to a loop for three hours a day. In two weeks, I felt my slow-medium swing feel felt a lot wider- still wasn't like Elvin's though. I very much agree with Gregg that none of us are going to be Elvin, rather if you get a teacher you'll make pretty big strides quick if you're dedicated. I think if you're going to emulate someone, you have to do it to access different parts of yourself rather than copycatting them exactly. That's not a useful contribution, unless someone's looking for an "Elvin Feel" or something. Stuff like looping four bars of time a la Elvin can help you, though. It is extremely difficult to emulate his feel. Definetly the hardest thing I've ever tried to doo.
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Stu_Strib said:
Hunter/Hayden...what's the diff ;-) I'm too busy ripping Joey Jordison in other threads for such miniscule details ;-)
You know this thread has gotten too hard to fight other battles. Like I go to the bass drum thread to slam WFD haters and Derek Roddy's possible cheating to get a world record, and over there it's fun because it's kind of easy 'cause your'e dealing with people who have heard 5 CDs, that are usually of the same drummer, and they try to put you down with questions that youve known the answer to since you were 9. Its kinda peaceful actually.

Here you see Gregg and he's already in lock and load mode, with Stu as his willing sidekick. Then Oz gets in there with the left of center old school look, who thinks speed drumming is just a phase I will hopefully outgrow soon, followed by smart and friendly loge and the "can't we all just get along" perspective. Then you got all these others like Finn and Duke, Guillermo, Drad and a cast of others shooting their pistols in the air with viewpoints I never thought of.

Man, it's hard to come over here and wing it. You know if elvin4ever was still here, I think my head would explode.

But, I guess that's what we all talked about 2 weeks ago when we discussed keeping this thread together huh?
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

mattsmith said:
You know this thread has gotten too hard to fight other battles. Like I go to the bass drum thread to slam WFD haters and Derek Roddy's possible cheating to get a world record, and over there it's fun because it's kind of easy 'cause your'e dealing with people who have heard 5 CDs, that are usually of the same drummer, and they try to put you down with questions that youve known the answer to since you were 9. Its kinda peaceful actually.

Here you see Gregg and he's already in lock and load mode, with Stu as his willing sidekick. Then Oz gets in there with the left of center old school look, who thinks speed drumming is just a phase I will hopefully outgrow soon, followed by smart and friendly loge and the "can't we all just get along" perspective. Then you got all these others like Finn and Duke, Guillermo, Drad and a cast of others shooting their pistols in the air with viewpoints I never thought of.

Man, it's hard to come over here and wing it. You know if elvin4ever was still here, I think my head would explode.

But, I guess that's what we all talked about 2 weeks ago when we discussed keeping this thread together huh?

Matt, should I be angry for that? What are you talking about? Did I shoot someone? Crap...I didn't even know... Aren't Stu and I on opposite teams? What's going on, Matt!?!?!

Let me lay this one on you though, IMO, you are a brilliant kid and have much wisdom, insight and ability. I'll place a bet that the true Jazz artist in you will, at some point, NOT be able to co-exist with something as trivial as how fast you can play, all due respect.

To me, the WFD is like a smoker looking at a guy who can fit 2000 cigarettes in his mouth and going 'Whoa, man!?!?! Look at THAT guy smoke!'.

Stu- We aren't chopping everyone you like, just a few of them=) Seriously man, you just seemed to pick the wrong guys. Let me lay this one on YOU:
You like Hamilton? Just take a few lessons from a Jazz drummer (for minor stuff, most likely)and you'll be close to or on his level (but with added interesting stuff like modulation, 5's, 7's, etc) assuming you are currently a good player. It's not that hard. You don't want to do stuff that really rocks the boat? Niether does Hamilton, find a big band, play in it and you're there. Remember, people like Hamilton are glorified jobbers, nothing more and that can be you anytime you want it to be.
You wanna play like Elvin? That's another story. A good teacher, years of listening, practicing and watching videos and finally.......nope, still no, same as the rest of us! lol Elvin was Elvin because he was Elvin. I know a couple cats who come close to that feel, but no one can duplicate it. This is why Jazz is what it is, why it's so personal- no one can play the same pattern (the ride pattern, for example) the same way because we are not the same person. It's not HARD to sound just like Elvin, it's IMPOSSIBLE. What makes Elvin sound the way he did was way more than just triplets or 2 bar grooves. It was his passion, his energy, his force (not THE Force...er...maybe). It was as much of HOW he hit his cymbals as when he hit them. We all know exactly what Elvin played, can transcribe, where the accents are, etc. So what. That's like saying Coltrane was a fast sax player who tended to play certain modes over certain chords. But we're all aware of this, aren't we???

By the way, what were the obscure refrences?
Stu, if you really want to dig into the Jazz thing, we're only trying to help. And yeah, we all need to build a stylistic vocabulary to play a certain style. I will leave out my 'you can't dabble in Jazz' opinion here though. Do you wanna be Boba Fett or be a clone of a clone of Boba Fett? That's what we're saying.
Here's my opinion as a professional musician and professional teacher and member of the International Assciation of Jazz Educators:

Stop telling us you wish you could learn more about playing Jazz and go learn to.

Between OZ, Matt/Mr. Smith, Finn, E4E and others, we've all pointed you in the right direction.

G
 
Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

jazzgregg said:
Matt, should I be angry for that? What are you talking about? Did I shoot someone? Crap...I didn't even know... Aren't Stu and I on opposite teams? What's going on, Matt!?!?!

Let me lay this one on you though, IMO, you are a brilliant kid and have much wisdom, insight and ability. I'll place a bet that the true Jazz artist in you will, at some point, NOT be able to co-exist with something as trivial as how fast you can play, all due respect.

To me, the WFD is like a smoker looking at a guy who can fit 2000 cigarettes in his mouth and going 'Whoa, man!?!?! Look at THAT guy smoke!'.
Not at all Gregg. You and Stu make this thread go. Its like opposites attract. One could not be as a good on this forum without the other. You guys play the same role IMO.
Your'e also bead on about your opinions. That's what I mean by lock and load. What's that thing people say?

People who are middle of the road get hit by a truck.

Man, you don't insult me with the WFD opinion. I of course see what it is, just like everybody who is good at it does. But come on, in alot of ways they're my first real exposure. And I have gotten an insane amount of visibility out of it. I could become the drummer for Keith Jarrett right now and it wouldn't give me the visibility with business people to keep a career going forever like I'm getting with WFD. That might be unfair, but it's true. Besides I aint gettin' Jarret's gig (lol).

Lionel Hampton and Art Blakey aren't around anymore to get guys off the ground. I'm bein' taught to try alot of things. This is one of them.

Plus I need those prizes. My stuff isn't that good. Mostly, I think Art Verdi and Boo McAffee, Tim Waterson are good guys. You got to remember I'm still workin' on my chops.
I am as I am told a work in progress.

Naw, my comments were all copliments, believe it.
 
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