Ludwig Maple Classics VS. Gretsch USA

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by Les Ismore

GRETSCH USA CUSTOM uses nitrocellulose lacquer, my choice on a musical instrument over UV lacquer any day.

GRETSCH uses die cast lugs and claws where as LUDWIG continues on with cheap monkey metal and stamped steel. Die cast hoops are also more bullet proof than than flanged steel.

Solid materials make for a better built instrument and between the two GRETSCH is the better built instrument b/c of those materials IMO.

Resale value goes to USA CUSTOM as the materials prove to be more integral over time than the lesser LUDWIG junk.

Sound is subjective.

Incorrect. Ludwig's lugs and claws are die-cast, and better made than Gretsch's hardware, IMO. The lugs are thicker, and hardware is better all-around, IMO. Gretsch USA custom comes with the old school stamped claws that look and feel cheap, compared to the nice die-cast claws that even the Renown series comes with. I don't shoot bullets at my drums so I don't consider die-cast hoops "better"...just heavier and they deaden the sound a bit. I personally don't like them...and I'd get the new 302 hoops that the Brooklyn series comes with, over die-cast, anyday.

As far as value...few working drummers can afford a Gretsch USA Custom, used or new. For what you get, they're probably the most overpriced drums on the market. Ludwig offers their custom drums at a very affordable price. I've had dealers tell me horror stories from both Gretsch and Ludwig, and it sounds to me like they both need to work on their QC standards.

[mrmike]

Surprised that no one has mentioned the "secret sauce" used in the USA Customs shells. It's the gum/maple and the edges that make them sound different. To me the Ludwig Classics have more of a generic modern sound and the Ludwig Legacy have a vintage 70's Ludwig sound. The earlier 3 ply mahogany/poplar have another sound altogether where I believe the new USA customs are closer to the sound of the vintage ones.

[brentcn]

Originally Posted by mrmike

Surprised that no one has mentioned the "secret sauce" used in the USA Customs shells. It's the gum/maple and the edges that make them sound different. To me the Ludwig Classics have more of a generic modern sound and the Ludwig Legacy have a vintage 70's Ludwig sound. The earlier 3 ply mahogany/poplar have another sound altogether where I believe the new USA customs are closer to the sound of the vintage ones.

I don't know about that, though I'm sure the available marketing material would make such a claim. Have you ever put a die cast hoop where there used to be a triple-flanged hoop? It's quite a difference! Not only can you hear a sonic difference, but you can feel it as you play the drum. When talking Gretsch shells, the Jasper shells seem to get the most credit. Still, the Ludwig Classics and the USA Customs shells are fairly similar: they are both thin and maple (right?). Fifteen degrees on a bearing edge might be barely noticeable -- I think you'd more easily hear a difference if the roundovers were very different (both have a subtle roundover).

Zambizzi - Gretsch's new claws are die cast (at least on USA Customs). The 302 hoops are fairly substantial in thickness and weight. They are not close to a triple flanged hoop, but are closer to die cast in their build. The Brooklyn toms do sound a bit more open to my ears, but not drastically different.

All points here are moot anyway -- the OP ordered an Allegra kit.

[mrmike]

Originally Posted by brentcn

Still, the Ludwig Classics and the USA Customs shells are fairly similar: they are both thin and maple (right?).

USA Cutoms are still maple/gum as confirmed in this Brooklyn promo video at the 5 min. mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxDb00OHMns

Die cast hoops definitely make a difference but if were are talking similar sound the closest thing to my ears is the DW jazz series.

[Artstar]

Originally Posted by brentcn

All points here are moot anyway -- the OP ordered an Allegra kit.

Really ?? When did that happen ??

[Roy E. Munson]

i didnt order allegra. no thanks, for allergies yes, but for drums na. my dw classic kit didnt sell on ebay. i priced it low. as dissapointed as i am with dw the drums sound great. ill be keeping the kit for now.

[Toolate]

OF all the "which is best" threads I have ever read- this one is the most interesting because no one has come to say- "X brand is better than those". It almost seems like there is a consensus here that either of these kits is really "the best" kit out there.

From what I have read here and learned on my own- I would go with the Gretsch kit for long term value. I have 2 catalina kits and love them too.

$aving....

[Roy E. Munson]

ya gretsch would be nice. im a huge classic rock/alternative/modern rock and most of the drummers and albums i like are using gretsch drums in the studio. granted when they are out on the road they use the company they are endorsed by. perfect example dave grohl. using dw's out on the road with the vultures, but recorded the album with gretsch drums. that being said and reading the comment above if i was rich id be getting craviotto drums no questions asked.

[pieplaysdrums]

Originally Posted by Toolate

OF all the "which is best" threads I have ever read- this one is the most interesting because no one has come to say- "X brand is better than those". It almost seems like there is a consensus here that either of these kits is really "the best" kit out there.

From what I have read here and learned on my own- I would go with the Gretsch kit for long term value. I have 2 catalina kits and love them too.

$aving....

The answer is different for everyone. Which set's fit and finish is better? Which looks better? Which sounds better? This is a loaded question that can only be answered by the end user. Also, let's be real here and know that even though we're comparing high-end product, it will NOT be the "last kit I ever buy". Any musician that says that about their instrument is delusional as tastes always change. Change is the constant.

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by Balto

It really gets quite boring hearing the same myth all the time!

Yeah, sorry to bore you. Far be it from me to detract from your entertainment value. All I can go on is what a few dealers have told me now. According to them, and a couple of reputable folks here on the DW forums - Renown shells are Kellers with edges cut in the US. Hardware, like all of Gretsch's hardware, is made in Asia...and supposedly, Renown shells are assembled there, then shipped back. There are a few threads here on the subject.

Take it or leave it, it's only what I've been told. I agree...it makes no difference, I only find it interesting.

[Artstar]

Originally Posted by zambizzi

Take it or leave it, it's only what I've been told. I agree...it makes no difference, I only find it interesting.

Zambo... nothing bad toward you at all.. and I know maybe you met a few guys who THINK that.. but I would have to see some sort of proof..

First.. That factory where they are made can most likely make something even better.. so wtf would they be sending shells overseas for .. ??? There is NOT A REASON I COULD IMAGINE. That is like moving backward.

Also.., Go look VERY CLOSELY at the Renown shells.. Those plies are much, much thinner from what I remember, and the thicknesses are NOT WHAT KELLER EVEN OFFERS.. Check it out man..

[B-squared]

Originally Posted by zambizzi

Renown shells are Kellers with edges cut in the US. Hardware, like all of Gretsch's hardware, is made in Asia...and supposedly, Renown shells are assembled there, then shipped back. There are a few threads here on the subject.

This is what I found out when I researched the subject prior to buying my Ludwigs. I also was reading that Dixon Outlaws are basically the same drums and are made in the same Kaman factory.

With that being said, Keller shells are great shells. Gretsch started using them when Jasper shut down. The only gripe I have with Gretsch is their pricing. Just do a Google search for Renown 57 prices for both full size and bop size. I have discussed this on other threads, so I won't elaborate. The point is, if you do buy Gretsch, you might want to shop around.

[Artstar]

Originally Posted by B-squared

Gretsch started using them when Jasper shut down. .

Yes.. This part is correct.. for the USA Custom. ( Although with gum mixed in of course )

[Smatch]

Originally Posted by B-squared

This is what I found out when I researched the subject prior to buying my Ludwigs. I also was reading that Dixon Outlaws are basically the same drums and are made in the same Kaman factory.

With that being said, Keller shells are great shells. Gretsch started using them when Jasper shut down. The only gripe I have with Gretsch is their pricing. Just do a Google search for Renown 57 prices for both full size and bop size. I have discussed this on other threads, so I won't elaborate. The point is, if you do buy Gretsch, you might want to shop around.

From what I understand Gretsch purchased all of the machinery from Jasper when they went under and now have it in use with Keller. Keller builds the shells but with the Jasper equipment and to Grestch's specs and "secret" maple gum maple shell recipe. So in essence Gretsch still uses the same Jasper shells, just not shells manufactured at the former Jasper facility.

[pieplaysdrums]

Originally Posted by Smatch

From what I understand Gretsch purchased all of the machinery from Jasper when they went under and now have it in use with Keller. Keller builds the shells but with the Jasper equipment and to Grestch's specs and "secret" maple gum maple shell recipe. So in essence Gretsch still uses the same Jasper shells, just not shells manufactured at the former Jasper facility.

Sorry, but no. Gretsch may have purchased the dies from Jasper, but saying that Keller is using them in NH just for Gretsch just helps people with the irrational opinion that furniture company X can't possibly replicate what furniture company Y did. Also, if you were Keller, and some company came to you after you already had contracts with MOST of the boutique builders and several of the majors, and said "hey, we don't do any real volume, but we want you to take these machines and use YOUR space to warehouse them, use them, maintain them, to make only our product to our "secret" special recipe. And oh yeah, we want them at the same price point as every other shell you make so we can still price our drums competitively."
It just doesn't add up.

[Smatch]

Originally Posted by pieplaysdrums

Sorry, but no. Gretsch may have purchased the dies from Jasper, but saying that Keller is using them in NH just for Gretsch just helps people with the irrational opinion that furniture company X can't possibly replicate what furniture company Y did. Also, if you were Keller, and some company came to you after you already had contracts with MOST of the boutique builders and several of the majors, and said "hey, we don't do any real volume, but we want you to take these machines and use YOUR space to warehouse them, use them, maintain them, to make only our product to our "secret" special recipe. And oh yeah, we want them at the same price point as every other shell you make so we can still price our drums competitively."
It just doesn't add up.

Do you know this is as a fact? Or are you just speculating? I would like to know definitively as what I was told was from a very reliable source, although I have only their word to go by. If you really know for sure I would like to know as well.

[Soupy]

Keller is in the business of making plywood tubes. They can make them in any configuration they want with any thickness, ply count, type of wood, wood layout, etc, whether that's results in their standard 6/8/10 ply maple shells or something tailored to Gretsch's specifications. There is no reason for them to need Jasper's old gear (unless buying Jasper's old gear is how they got into the business?). Frankly, I can not imagine that there will be any difference in the performance characteristics of two plywood tubes with identical design, simply assembled in different molds.

[pieplaysdrums]

Originally Posted by Smatch

Do you know this is as a fact? Or are you just speculating? I would like to know definitively as what I was told was from a very reliable source, although I have only their word to go by. If you really know for sure I would like to know as well.

I cannot provide the proof you want. However, knowing what (little) I do about the retail drum business I will say that I'd be HIGHLY surprised, based on whom I've talked to, if your proposed scenario is true. I just can't see how it would be fiscally and logistically sound for Keller or Gretsch to do that. It seems to me to be a nice piece of romantic fiction from Gretsch, which they like to put out there. Romanticism is the bedrock of their marketing strategy, not factual specifics.
I know that's not as deep a response as you'd asked for but that's as far as I care to take it. Cheers.

[Stixnergard2]

Originally Posted by pieplaysdrums

Sorry, but no. Gretsch may have purchased the dies from Jasper, but saying that Keller is using them in NH just for Gretsch just helps people with the irrational opinion that furniture company X can't possibly replicate what furniture company Y did. Also, if you were Keller, and some company came to you after you already had contracts with MOST of the boutique builders and several of the majors, and said "hey, we don't do any real volume, but we want you to take these machines and use YOUR space to warehouse them, use them, maintain them, to make only our product to our "secret" special recipe. And oh yeah, we want them at the same price point as every other shell you make so we can still price our drums competitively."
It just doesn't add up.

Actually, the rumor was Fibes bought all of Jasper's shell molds

[KarlCrafton]

When I met Fred Gretsch a couple years ago at the shop, he said Gretsch owns the tooling/molds, and the exact shell config is/was/supposed to be exclusive to Gretsch.
I can't remember if he said Keller was doing the work or not, but it is Gretsch gear, whoever does the labor.

He was a pretty darn nice guy.

While talking to him, you got the impression that he was very proud of the heritage, and what they were doing, BUT also that he was interested in doing it THE GRETSCH WAY, and the company wasn't interested in doing things any other way, as far as outside/ customer "you guy's should..." type things a serious inputs.

This is Gretsch, this is the way we do it, and that's that.
That was my take from the hour or so anyway. Can't argue with a sound, you like it or you don't.

[Roy E. Munson]

Well Its official. I bought Ludwigs....second maple classics kit. My goal is to keep them for 3 years. Next is Craviotto. One can dream.

[RobertM]

Good question about which drums to choose. I have heard praise for both drums, like the sound of both, but I have usually heard more complaints about quality control for Ludwig (both here on this forum from Ludwig owners and elsewhere on the Web or via personal conversation with various drum dealers). In fact, I just spoke with a shop today that specializes in jazz and vintage gear about both drums, and learned that they too have had more QC problems with ordered Ludwig kits for customers than Gretsch USA Customs--by a long mile.

I wouldn't mind having a Ludwig CM kit, but I'm just too weary of the QC problems. Your high-end kits should not have such a reputation. I know every shop makes mistakes, but there seems to be more QC issues with Ludwig CM kits than, say, Yamaha Recording Customs or Gretsch USA. I've heard DW Collectors have had quite a few QC issues, but the high-end Yamaha and Gretsch kits seem to do better than Ludwig or DW (based on the past couple of years).