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  #1  
Old 05-22-2015, 10:05 AM
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Default DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

The rules of mother nature, intervallic relationships, tamber matching, SSC vertical, cross, and diagonal laminating. Are these hokus pokus ideas linked with cerebral marketing, or is this drum co living on the leading edge of better drum design?


When you see stuff like this, one can't help but think its all rooted in the milky goodness of innovation. Herein lies a deftly woven process that which in the back of your mind is hoped to be computed, tabulated and rationalized as better built/sounding drums, its supposed to make sense.


The palatable information is the mechanical information. Just by looking, people can mentally comprehend that hardware design X has (should have) better support potential than hardware Y. Mechanical differences tho when relating to how their process affects a drum shells sound are somewhat less understandable. It could be mysterious silver paint, it could be arcane wood grain orientations, it doesn't matter, there does need to be something tho that gets your thinking attention, some thing/process that you mentally agree with that makes you want to buy company X's drums. If sophisticated ply lay-ups and hot to cold shell molds make sense in your mind, then the laws of advertising say you're more likely to go with that companies product/process than with some other manufacture who just blindly rolls a shell the old fashioned way.


Sales one would think depend on a defined process that can be explained in a way the potential buyer can imagine that process will produce a different sound. It cannot be marketed as a 'better' sound, as a better sound can only be defined by the listener, not defined by a building process. The process (and material) of a build has 'only' to produce a noticeable 'difference' in sound, then that processes definition can be validated as something to market. Lug gaskets make sense, isolate the hardware, shell can vibrate, which in your mind means...?


It seems DW is has it going on. Who's putting as much energy and attention into the details of the materials and construction as DW? We can hear the differences in sound so the process isn't fantasy, they 'hope' we perceive it as 'better/desirable', but the only moral requirement for marketing is a noticeable difference.


So, with all their cutting edge coolness, all the DW disciples, why 'wouldn't' you want to buy a set of DW drums, or do you feel DW is completely off the E-meter?
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Old 05-22-2015, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

This is probably true as I'm sure DW has some ego's like Tom Cruise and John Travolta to contend with too ;)
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Old 05-22-2015, 12:36 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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Who's putting as much energy and attention into the details of the materials and construction as DW?
I'd argue we do, but less well positioned to get the message out. Of course, our approach is very different - period!
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Old 05-22-2015, 01:04 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

...waits for the DW fanbois to come screaming in here because of the inflammatory thread title...



Seriously, DW's approach can't be *all* marketing hokum, unless they don't actually do all the stuff their marketing says they do.

If it doesn't do anything, there's no point in making it part of your production process. If you make it part of your production process anyway, you're wasting time. Time is money.

Companies don't like to piss money away. DW didn't get to the point where it could buy other music companies through wasteful practices. Logically, it holds that there's at least some measurable effect from their practices.

My issue with DW - and indeed any other drum company which makes claims about how their process affects the product, no offense intended, Andy - is that I've never seen data. I've never seen A - B comparisons where the only variable is, say, grain direction in one ply. Where you put the sound into a spectrum analyzer or oscilloscope so you could identify which frequencies changed when you made the switch. Hell, I want to see that for different materials (like birch vs maple vs oak)!

You can stand on camera all you like and tell me your unique shell construction makes your drums sound better, but I want to see the numbers. Moreover, I want to know how you arrived at those numbers. I want to see stuff like blind testing, where "8 out of 10 listeners heard our drums compared to the competition and preferred ours", though I'll still call bullshit if you claim it's because of your unique ply layup, unless you can prove it as described above.

And for all these things I want to know your process, how you obtained the data. I want to know your analysis process, what conclusions you discarded when the numbers didn't do what you thought they would.

It's not asking much, I know. ;-) But honestly, unless you can support the claim, all I can say is "Sez you, bub." We're talking about science, not art.
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Old 05-22-2015, 01:17 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

One of the things that I have learnt while drumming is to trust my instinct as far as drums go, so scientific jargon is just spin. Let us be the judge of which drums give us the ability to play to what we will.
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Old 05-22-2015, 01:29 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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One of the things that I have learnt while drumming is to trust my instinct as far as drums go, so scientific jargon is just spin. Let us be the judge of which drums give us the ability to play to what we will.
You would just be a buzzkill at the NAMM show ;)

But that's cool
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Old 05-22-2015, 01:59 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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You would just be a buzzkill at the NAMM show ;)

But that's cool
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Old 05-22-2015, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

I own dw's (only bought them to annoy a friend that wanted them, cause im a dick) And i don't find them to be special in anyway... if i were to buy again i would save a bit more for that yellow tama erskine kit.. it makes me moist...
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Old 05-22-2015, 02:26 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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no offense intended, Andy - is that I've never seen data. I've never seen A - B comparisons
I must admit, there's no reason why we couldn't offer an abridged version of our internal A-B testing for scrutiny, except for the cost of doing so. To cover all the bases, we'd need to build literally hundreds of drums, & we can't afford that.

There are two other angles to this too:

1/ A given company may not wish to reveal all their R&D processes/results. I can appreciate such a stance, & in some regards, that applies to us.

2/ The purported "innovation" actually doesn't work, or if it does, the difference is so minimal it's not easy to display by means of video, etc. I'm pretty sure that applies quite widely.

We constantly amass anecdotal evidence of our instrument's individuality. Only last week, & in the context of a drum show in sports hall, several visitors remarked that no matter where they were in the hall, they always knew when the Gurus were being played amidst the cacophony of drums being thumped. I was pretty pleased about that :)
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Old 05-22-2015, 02:40 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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Only last week, & in the context of a drum show in sports hall, several visitors remarked that no matter where they were in the hall, they always knew when the Gurus were being played amidst the cacophony of drums being thumped. I was pretty pleased about that :)
You guys should really get out to the NAMM show - in that environment if people can hear Guru's being played in that loud hall I'd be super impressed!
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Old 05-22-2015, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

Totally agree with the OP, it is the Scientology of companies, now we need a Jason Beghe of the drumming community to blow the lid of this as in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHb0BZyF5Ok

I've played and heard many DW's - still play one weekly at a rehearsal studio. The marketing has not resonated with me - I just don't get it or see the facts supporting it - sound is subjective like everyone stated already.

Now just for fun, since we've established DW as scientology, what would you associate other companies in lieu of other religions (fake or not :))
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Old 05-22-2015, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

Good idea Joseph. Hopefully this doesn't get out of hand...

I'd compare Ludwig to Catholicism. Been around forever, slow to change and adapt to the times yet remains popular with many, many devout followers. Many of these followers deliberately overlook the glaring incongruences with the church and their own beliefs/likes. Some may modify to suit their needs/beliefs.

That being said, I just bought my first LM402 and actually am a former Roman Catholic.
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Old 05-22-2015, 06:38 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

Magic silver paint is my thing. It sounds nice.

Never heard anyone except Toss get a nice sound out of DW toms.

We like what we like.

When it comes to snare drums it's not that simple, though. So many different ones and so many nice ones.
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Old 05-22-2015, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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Originally Posted by Icetech View Post
I own dw's (only bought them to annoy a friend that wanted them, cause im a dick) And i don't find them to be special in anyway... if i were to buy again i would save a bit more for that yellow tama erskine kit.. it makes me moist...
Thanks for the giggle, I almost spat my tea all over the keyboard.

It's ironic that DW is the only forum that doesn't like Drum workshop.

Is that an irony? I'm not sure, I'm just a dumb drummer but everywhere else I go people speak highly of them. I like DWs image, I definitely notice that they are powerful sounding drums, and I observe that most of the guys working behind the counter in various stores that I visit own DW's, so why is that?

These are guys that have all day to test every brand, there's surely something to that. One particular shop always had collectors kits setup and I didn't really go for the bigger sizes or those hideous and plasticky sounding stock heads but I had a great experience on an Eco X kit in fusion sizes one day. I also shared a DW performance kit at a gig once and I really enjoyed playing it.

If they weren't so out of reach price wise I'd like to own one at least for a while and see what they're all about.
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Old 05-22-2015, 09:20 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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Originally Posted by Icetech View Post
I own dw's (only bought them to annoy a friend that wanted them, cause im a dick) And i don't find them to be special in anyway... if i were to buy again i would save a bit more for that yellow tama erskine kit.. it makes me moist...

I sense gender identity confusion in this ^^^^ post.

LOL
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Old 05-22-2015, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

A little off topic, but last week I went to a small pizza/bar/restaurant type place that was featuring a jazz group.

The drummer set up with a 6 piece DW kit with twice as many cymbals. I'll bet he had close to 10K sunk into that kit.
His setup alone took up a good portion of that room (there were several seating areas there).

Just got a chuckle out of it.
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Old 05-22-2015, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

Can't wait to see where this thread goes.

If Luddies are Catholic, I'd say Pearl, Yamaha or Tama are Hindu (many gods) and some smaller companies or Guru are Buddhist (Nirvana?)
I don't know which if any is Islam.

Disclosure: agnostic, former Roman Catholic
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Old 05-22-2015, 10:31 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
I'd argue we do, but less well positioned to get the message out. Of course, our approach is very different - period!
Originally implying the majors, but yes GURU is working some cool magic, can loosely be seen as an 'up an coming' drum cult in the same light hearted sense I made the DW reference to. You guys thought about opening a retreat somewhere near the equator Andy?



I think its great DW is willing and able to experiment to such a great degree, and like I said we paid/are paying for that. Professor Good get$ to let his imagination run wild. Honestly I would fully accept the process if not for the (carry over CAMCO) turret lugs, never liked the look of them, and truthfully 'the only' reason I wouldn't buy DW. Why can't DW just come out with a new line sporting a more vertical lug design, they got the money? Just about every other major drum co has more than one lug design.


With all the tools and tec money can buy at their disposal there has been innovation. The EDGE snare drum idea, kinda like just flipping a PEARL free floater flipped over tho, some semblance of that idea already existed. Professor Good scores with the esoteric ply lay ups, and honorable mention goes to the lofty, held sacred (but subjective in the publics eye) TIMBER MATCH(ING). I'll give them 'first' with fine-threads on tension rods (but I could be wrong), oh and I do own DW aluminum FT legs, something no one else had introduced bf them. MAG LEV/Three position strainer scores high. Dog/puppy bones are basically multi clamps. Stuff like JAZZ series drums are just the result of looking at the what was and making their own version.

The major drum voicings seem to be established, Maple, Birch, Vintage (mahogany, gum, poplar). metal. So where does one go with drum shells now, airtight, digital pneumatic tuning?





Here's a list of DW registered trademarks and patents:

DW®
DW Turret-Style Drum Lug Design Reg. No. 2,150,216
DW 5000®
True-Pitch®
DW Turret-Style Drum Lug Design
F.A.S.T.-Tom®

The Drummer's Choice®
DogBone®
Collarlock®
Timbre Match®
Timbre Tune®
Timber Match®
Timber Tune®
Chain Drive®
Collector's Series®
TechLock®
TrueTone®
DW Jazz Drums®
Drum Day®

PDP®

Kitbuilder®
Red pedal base plates are a trademark of Drum Workshop, Inc.

Foreign trademarks pending

US Patents

Edge (drum construction)- 5,377,576
STM- 5,520,083
Note in Shell (Drum tuning Method & Apparatus)- 5,770,810
Coated Clear head w/annular coating)- 5,920,021
Head with Center Coating- 6,518,490
Fine Tune Floor Tom Leg- 6,060,652
Bearing Edge- 6,525,250
Delta Ball-Bearing throw-off covered by- 6,573,442- 5,616,875 and 6,891,098
Heel-Less Pedal- 7,396,986
U.S. Patented Processes:

Drum Processing Apparatus- 5,884,379
Drum Sanding Apparatus- 5,735,733
Foreign Patents

Note in Shell (Drum tuning Method & Apparatus)-German Pat. # 198 82 994
Note in Shell (Drum tuning Method & Apparatus)- UK Pat. # 2352318
DW

Last edited by Les Ismore; 05-22-2015 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 05-22-2015, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
I must admit, there's no reason why we couldn't offer an abridged version of our internal A-B testing for scrutiny, except for the cost of doing so. To cover all the bases, we'd need to build literally hundreds of drums, & we can't afford that.
Oh, I'm certain, and I should make very clear that I wasn't aiming my comments at you. The differences between what you do and ply instruments are so vast as to be night and day. Any fool can plainly see that. I was referring specifically to "We do [insert term of art here] to make what *looks* like any other ply drum sound better than other ply drums." For me, that's an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I have yet to see evidence of any description from DW or any other ply-shell company, companies who can afford to build the hundreds of drums required to perform such testing.

Quote:
1/ A given company may not wish to reveal all their R&D processes/results.
While I understand that viewpoint, if the maker won't share what leads him to make the claim, I reserve the right to think the claim is so much bohunkus. ;-) More pertinently, companies like DW and Sonor specifically tell us in their marketing what makes their product, in their words, superior to other ply-shell instruments. They just don't provide any metric by which the veracity of the claim might be confirmed.

Quote:
2/ The purported "innovation" actually doesn't work, or if it does, the difference is so minimal it's not easy to display by means of video, etc. I'm pretty sure that applies quite widely.
I have no doubt this is usually the case, which is why I think they don't provide any metric by which the difference can be measured. For example, I just spent all day in the studio with a DW kit two days ago. While it was very nice, and I enjoyed playing it, I noted no superiority to my maple/ash Premier Cabria in terms of sound or fit and finish. Hardly scientific, I know, but... As you rightly note, a ply drum is a ply drum. The differences are so miniscule as to be negligible.

Quote:
We constantly amass anecdotal evidence of our instrument's individuality. Only last week, & in the context of a drum show in sports hall, several visitors remarked that no matter where they were in the hall, they always knew when the Gurus were being played amidst the cacophony of drums being thumped. I was pretty pleased about that :)
You should be! That's a very fine feather in your cap! I plan on adding myself to the roster of Guru converts in a few years' time. As I've noted, your instruments are a galaxy removed from even the finest ply drums. I shouldn't wonder if they were instantly recognizable in the drum-show din (or is row the mot juste?).

Now I've buttered you up, I feel I can cordially attack your statement regarding anecdotal evidence. :-)

Anecdotal evidence ... isn't. A human can testify to what they perceive to be the characteristics of the thing they're sensing, but without a metric there is no evidence, except that which can be gathered in blind A/B sensory evaluation (and a handful of other methods).

The probability is overwhelming that, if the listener knows it's a current-issue DW drum, if they perceive a difference in sound they'll ascribe it to whatever widget DW touts as making the difference. Thus anecdotal evidence is meaningless.

Now, if DW showed a display of an audio waveform where one can see (and I'm just making up numbers here) that a DW HVX shell had 10dB more intensity from 800 to 1200Hz as compared to a traditional horizontal/vertical ply layup (or something like that), that's data. But they don't offer that. They just splat a lot of builder's jargon at one and hope one is convinced they're telling the truth when they say, "DW's HVX maple shell technology provides superior sound quality in live and studio situations by combining wood layers with grain orientations that run horizontally, vertically, and diagonally."

What does "superior" mean? By what metric has Mr Good established his product as "superior"? As I've said before, if DW made the claim, "8 out of 10 players preferred DW Performance Series drums in blind testing", I'd accept that (with proper documentation). "Superior", however, is an empty claim without some sort of metric.

This is a very interesting conversation! :-D
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Old 05-23-2015, 12:09 AM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

While its obvious Bob doesn't like DW's marketing, I think its undeniable that DW is the most open of any drum manufacturer on the planet about how their drums are built, the thought process behind it, and who show these characteristics in a way that is simple for the regular viewing public to understand without boring them with oscilloscope graphs and what not. John Good goes out of his way to show the public what goes in to making their drums. No other builder will put together a 45 minute video showing you how a single ply of wood and its grain orientation play a roll in the shells construction and overall fundamental note. The best you get out of the other brands is some sales rep talking about a finished kit and how it sounds "warm and punchy". Thanks Tama for telling me how all your innovations have made your drums "punchy". The thing is, John hasn't just made one of these videos. He has made hundreds of these videos. If DW crafts something new, JG is out there making a new video about it to show the public.

I'm not saying I'm drinking the DW Kool-Aid, but John Good does seem genuinely interested in showing you what makes a DW drum. The other manufacturer's don't do any of that. You might be lucky to see a 5 minute factory tour video that really doesn't show you anything about what goes in to making a drum.
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Old 05-23-2015, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

Quote:
What does "superior" mean? By what metric has Mr Good established his product as "superior"? As I've said before, if DW made the claim, "8 out of 10 players preferred DW Performance Series drums in blind testing", I'd accept that (with proper documentation). "Superior", however, is an empty claim without some sort of metric.

Professor Good doesn't need to establish the reason why he feels his process and design is superior, its just his opinion. What he has established tho is he does know drum making, he's established he has tons of experience experimenting hands on with making drums and drum shells.


A friend of mine in the musical instrument biz says he believes testimonials are a load of crap, you can pay ppl to say anything. John Good's opinions are based on some experience, he's not just some hired marketing guy gleaning off of printed info.


20% of the US population eats at McDonalds every day, what does that metric tell you? The metric that keeps Professor Good and DW going at the end of the day is sales numbers/profit.
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Old 05-23-2015, 01:51 AM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

[quote=Les Ismore;1354377}
20% of the US population eats at McDonalds every day, what does that metric tell you? [/QUOTE]

Tells one of the reasons obesity is on the rise, and will be the #1 health concern in coming years for the millenial generation.
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Old 05-23-2015, 02:28 AM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

dw combines fantastic marketing along with excellent products.
They function like a successful company should function.
I can't fault them for that. I own and like several of their products.
I also own and like numerous products from many other drum manufacturers.
I don't look at dw as a religion but I have respect for the dw team.
The world is a better place with dw in it that is for sure.
They keep every manufacturer on their toes. They keep the bar high.
Stiff competition between manufacturers is always a good thing for consumers.
Competition makes it necessary for all manufacturers to make better products.
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Old 05-23-2015, 02:40 AM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

My opinion is that all the higher end drums from the major companies are going to sound great with the right heads and tuning. it has been discussed here before that even mid-line kits from most manufacturers sound really good with heads/tuning.
What turns me off on DW is that they seem to have most of the top drummers, especially the more visible names, signed as endorsers. Please don't tell me that these star musicians choose the brand they think is the best. A lot of that has to do with the talent relations dept ( or whatever it is called), and the deal$$ that the endorser gets from the company.
I'm sure DW makes great drums, but I'm tired of the overexposure. Like one person said John Good has made 100's of videos. Every music show I see has DW on the bass drum.
What a treat to pull up a Stanton Moore vid and see Gretsch or go see Van Halen and see that Alex is still with Ludwig.
It's not that DW isn't a great drum- I'm just tired of seeing them everywhere.
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Old 05-23-2015, 07:12 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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John Good does seem genuinely interested in showing you what makes a DW drum. The other manufacturer's don't do any of that. You might be lucky to see a 5 minute factory tour video that really doesn't show you anything about what goes in to making a drum.
Ahem - it might be on a different level, but aside from hard earned proprietary stuff, I think you'll find we're very open & informative https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUV8NW8gqHs

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As you rightly note, a ply drum is a ply drum. The differences are so miniscule as to be negligible.
I thank you for your kind words, but this is not something I've ever said. Yes, differences are diminished compared to differences found using other constructions, but there's still significant differences between different ply drums given that the drums are well designed in the first place. For example, IMHO, Kumu make by far the best ply birch drums on the planet, & by some margin. The reasons for that are many, but ply layup, quality of materials, & cohesion of design direction are at the top of the list.


As for "show & tell" videos, I'm just about to drop a video on you all that pushes a few buttons ;)
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Old 05-23-2015, 08:07 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

Everyone in the drum store using DW is sort of the same as wearing the right brand of jeans in school.

I like and use their pedals, but honestly I haven't tried too many other high end pedals except the old Yamaha ones.
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Old 05-23-2015, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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It's not that DW isn't a great drum- I'm just tired of seeing them everywhere.
I wonder if people said that of Ludwig in the 60's and 70's. A lot of old concert films TV appearances with almost always Ludwig drums shown, just like DW today.

But I'm with you on the 'tired of seeing them thing'. I too like something different and stand out. Good to see folks on these media appearances with C&C or Q
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Old 05-23-2015, 10:02 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

Honestly, the whole "what brand of drums does drummer X play" is such a sidetrack to the main issue. I think that 85% of the chatter here is over gear. People think if they buy an expensive drum set that they will be great players. OK not really, but almost. Too much focus on stuff, not enough focus on the real meat and potatoes that is actually playing the drums.

I'm guilty too, but it really is out of balance, the amount of time spent discussing gear compared to the amount of time spent discussing actual drumming.
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Old 05-23-2015, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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Originally Posted by Tommy_D View Post
While its obvious Bob doesn't like DW's marketing[...]
Not entirely accurate. I don't like unsupported claims. It doesn't matter a bit to me where they come from.

Quote:
No other builder will put together a 45 minute video showing you how a single ply of wood and its grain orientation play a roll in the shells construction and overall fundamental note.
Without any A/B comparison or reference or support for the claims, none of his claims are anything more than so much hot air. Okay, so John Good says changing the grain orientation of a ply makes a difference. Why should you and I believe that? Because he's been making drums for a while? Just because you've been doing something for a while doesn't mean your pronouncements are unquestionable.

That's why I have questions: How did he arrive at his conclusions? First, what metric did he establish for "better"? Second, what other approaches were attempted and discarded? Third, etc. etc. etc.

When you boil all the dog-and-pony off of the DW marketing materials, there's no content. In fact, there's no data at all other than "Here's [thingy], and it sounds awesome because I'm John Good and I say so." Forgive me for saying so, but for me that's utterly useless.

Quote:
The best you get out of the other brands is some sales rep talking about a finished kit and how it sounds "warm and punchy".
True but irrelevant. That other makers don't give any detail at all does not give DW a pass to sell you what - for all you can tell from their marketing materials - is pure snake oil.

Quote:
The thing is, John hasn't just made one of these videos. He has made hundreds of these videos. If DW crafts something new, JG is out there making a new video about it to show the public.
True but irrelevant. That's not evidence of excellence at drum-making. That's evidence of being very, very good at brand-building and marketing.

Quote:
I'm not saying I'm drinking the DW Kool-Aid, but John Good does seem genuinely interested in showing you what makes a DW drum. The other manufacturers don't do any of that. You might be lucky to see a 5 minute factory tour video that really doesn't show you anything about what goes in to making a drum.
For that I applaud him. I'm going to be in a position to drop a nice spot of coin on a new kit in a couple of weeks, and DW is high on the list specifically because they innovate. I just want to know how they arrived at their conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Keep It Simple
I thank you for your kind words, but this is not something I've ever said.
My apologies. I must be misremembering. Perhaps I mistakenly read between the lines of some of your previous posts, or synthesized and attributed to you an opinion which clearly you don't have. In any case I was wrong to do that.

In my post you quoted, I was trying to make a point. Clearly I failed, so I'll try again: The difference between ply drums and ply drums - like, say, a PDP Concept Maple and PDP Concept Birch, or between a Concept Maple and a Catalina Maple - is nowhere near so dramatic as the difference between a ply drum with lots of dampening hardware on it and a ply drum with low-mass hardware. Extending the example, that difference, if any, is nowhere near as dramatic as the difference between ply drums and solid drums like Guru Tours. And there's a detectable difference between Tours and Origin, because of things like Origin having very little resonance-killing hardware.

If all that's a given (and you'll correct me if it's not), then the difference between a 7-ply maple shell with the grain direction of the outer and inner plies being on the diagonal and a "traditional" 7-ply maple shell would be so minor that it would require instrumentation to detect it. If they really wanted to increase sustain and resonance, they'd get rid of those hideous and humongous Camco turret lugs.

Is that more accurate?

Also, a tangential question: I've heard it said that less glue = more wood = better. Is this true? In other words, is a ply shell made up of less and thicker plies going to be more resonant than otherwise?
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  #30  
Old 05-24-2015, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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Originally Posted by STXBob View Post
Not entirely accurate. I don't like unsupported claims. It doesn't matter a bit to me where they come from.
Dear Sir,

Good day and compliments. This letter will definitely come to you as a huge surprise, but I implore you to take the time to go through it carefully as the decision you make will go off a long way to determine the future and continued existence of the entire members of my family.

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Without any A/B comparison or reference or support for the claims, none of his claims are anything more than so much hot air. Okay, so John Good says changing the grain orientation of a ply makes a difference. Why should you and I believe that? Because he's been making drums for a while? Just because you've been doing something for a while doesn't mean your pronouncements are unquestionable.
Please allow me to introduce myself. My name is Dr. (Mrs.) Mariam Abacha, the wife of the late head of state and commander in chief of the armed forces of the federal republic of Nigeria who died on the 8th of June 1998.

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That's why I have questions: How did he arrive at his conclusions? First, what metric did he establish for "better"? Second, what other approaches were attempted and discarded? Third, etc. etc. etc.
My ordeal started immediately after my husband's death on the morning of 8th June 1998, and the subsequent take over of government by the last administration. The present democratic government is determined to portray all the good work of my late husband in a bad light and have gone as far as confiscating all my late husband's assets, properties, freezing our accounts both within and outside Nigeria. As I am writing this letter to you, my son Mohammed Abacha is undergoing questioning with the government. All these measures taken by past/present government is just to gain international recognition.

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When you boil all the dog-and-pony off of the DW marketing materials, there's no content. In fact, there's no data at all other than "Here's [thingy], and it sounds awesome because I'm John Good and I say so." Forgive me for saying so, but for me that's utterly useless.
I and the entire members of my family have been held incommunicado since the death of my husband, hence I seek your indulgence to assist us in securing these funds. We are not allowed to see or discuss with anybody. Few occasions I have tired traveling abroad through alternative means all failed.


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Originally Posted by STXBob View Post
True but irrelevant. That other makers don't give any detail at all does not give DW a pass to sell you what - for all you can tell from their marketing materials - is pure snake oil.




True but irrelevant. That's not evidence of excellence at drum-making. That's evidence of being very, very good at brand-building and marketing.



For that I applaud him. I'm going to be in a position to drop a nice spot of coin on a new kit in a couple of weeks, and DW is high on the list specifically because they innovate. I just want to know how they arrived at their conclusions.
It is in view of this I have mandated DR GALADIMA HASSAN, who has been assisting the family to run around on so many issues to act on behalf of the family concerning the substance of this letter. He has the full power of attorney to execute this transaction with you.

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Originally Posted by STXBob View Post
My apologies. I must be misremembering. Perhaps I mistakenly read between the lines of some of your previous posts, or synthesized and attributed to you an opinion which clearly you don't have. In any case I was wrong to do that.

In my post you quoted, I was trying to make a point. Clearly I failed, so I'll try again: The difference between ply drums and ply drums - like, say, a PDP Concept Maple and PDP Concept Birch, or between a Concept Maple and a Catalina Maple - is nowhere near so dramatic as the difference between a ply drum with lots of dampening hardware on it and a ply drum with low-mass hardware. Extending the example, that difference, if any, is nowhere near as dramatic as the difference between ply drums and solid drums like Guru Tours. And there's a detectable difference between Tours and Origin, because of things like Origin having very little resonance-killing hardware.
My late husband had/has Eighty Million USD ($80,000,000.00) specially preserved and well packed in trunk boxes of which only my husband and I knew about. It is packed in such a way to forestall just anybody having access to it. It is this sum that I seek your assistance to get out of Nigeria as soon as possible before the present civilian government finds out about it and confiscate it just like they have done to all our assets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STXBob View Post
If all that's a given (and you'll correct me if it's not), then the difference between a 7-ply maple shell with the grain direction of the outer and inner plies being on the diagonal and a "traditional" 7-ply maple shell would be so minor that it would require instrumentation to detect it. If they really wanted to increase sustain and resonance, they'd get rid of those hideous and humongous Camco turret lugs.

Is that more accurate?
I implore you to please give consideration to my predicament and help a widow in need.

May Allah show you mercy as you do so?

Your faithfully,

Dr (Mrs.) Mariam Abacha (M.O.N)




Quote:
Originally Posted by STXBob View Post
Also, a tangential question: I've heard it said that less glue = more wood = better. Is this true? In other words, is a ply shell made up of less and thicker plies going to be more resonant than otherwise?
N/B: Please contact Dr Galadima Hassan on this e-mail address for further briefing and modalities
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Old 05-24-2015, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

They make some nice drums. So do several other companies. That's all I know.
(I'll never be considered a wordsmith)
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Old 05-25-2015, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
20% of the US population eats at McDonalds every day...
Is that true?!......
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Old 05-25-2015, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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Originally Posted by KingBeastie View Post
Is that true?!......
It's loosely based in truth.

I believe the stat was that the number pf prepared meals served each day(by all fast food restaurants in the US) was equivalent to 25% the US population. This was rehashed to the point where (in Supersize Me) that 20% of the population eats fast food every day. This was further obfuscated into 20% of people eat at McDonalds every day.

So the stat is wrong, it replaces each with every, and it replaces all fast restaurants (chipotle, apples, subway, fish fry, cafeterias) with McDonalds. It also discounts those that eat fast food more than once a day.

But yes, it is based on a real study that is likely on the web somewhere. I'd hit the "Supersize Me" site and see if they have the reference study linked.
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Old 05-25-2015, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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Originally Posted by KingBeastie View Post
Is that true?!......

http://www.vivavegie.org/101book/tex...upersizeme.htm
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Old 05-25-2015, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
It's loosely based in truth.

I believe the stat was that the number pf prepared meals served each day(by all fast food restaurants in the US) was equivalent to 25% the US population. This was rehashed to the point where (in Supersize Me) that 20% of the population eats fast food every day. This was further obfuscated into 20% of people eat at McDonalds every day.

So the stat is wrong, it replaces each with every, and it replaces all fast restaurants (chipotle, apples, subway, fish fry, cafeterias) with McDonalds. It also discounts those that eat fast food more than once a day.

But yes, it is based on a real study that is likely on the web somewhere. I'd hit the "Supersize Me" site and see if they have the reference study linked.

The 20% of the population eating at McDonalds stat was pulled from my memory of hearing about it the the 80's. Maybe not current as ppl are becoming more aware of what they compose their bodies of.

The correlation to drum gear is advertising works. McDonalds floods the ad market, DW also floods the ad market.
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Old 05-25-2015, 10:51 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

I eat mcdonalds for the preservatives. I don't want to start looking old just yet.
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:30 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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Old 05-25-2015, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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I eat mcdonalds for the preservatives. I don't want to start looking old just yet.
I've often wondered if preservatives had any effect, positive or negative, on human aging.

The chances of preservatives being good for you seems slim.
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Old 05-26-2015, 01:42 AM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

I have really tried to like D.W. drums. I want to support a local business like D.W., but I can't do it. Their drums sound horrible to me. H O R R I B L E. I've played many, many D.W. drums and I've always been not only unimpressed, but seriously disappointed. The best drums I've ever heard that were associated with them were the PDP drums.

Perhaps they just have a sound that doesn't appeal to me. I don't know about that. I've heard and played nice sounding drums from Pearl, Ludwig, Slingerland, Rogers, Tama, Gretsch, Milestone, and Yamaha. I'm currently playing Gretsch.

I honestly think I can make any brand of drums sound great, EXCEPT for D.W.

I wouldn't take all the D.W. drums in the world for FREE.










Have I mentioned that I really don't like D.W. drums? Well, it's true.

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Old 05-26-2015, 03:45 AM
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Default Re: DW, the Scientology of drum companies?

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...I wouldn't take all the D.W. drums in the world for FREE...

LOL

I wouldn't either. I'd have to rent out too much space to store them.
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