Soundguys and drummers

Larry

"Uncle Larry"
In reality, I wonder how many soundguys take kindly to a drummer who likes their kit miced a certain way. Like I don't like ported heads or muffling. Now I really haven't run into this situation yet, because I'm not miced that much. But if what I want isn't in this guys SOP, then what's a drummer to do? It seems to me what I am asking is simple, 2 overheads, kick, and snare mic. Kick mic backed off the head a few inches and away from the center, and overheads as opposed to close micing so I can go unmuffled and get all those great unrestricted tones. Close mics always get in my way. The snare mic is bad enough. I mix my own volumes, so for the sound man, all I need is a crisp clear capture Plus it's less mics, less cords for them. I would think it's easier for them to do it this way.

But what if they aren't interested in how I want my kit miced? What is the protocol for drummers?
 
I suppose that relationship is similar to how much we drummers like to get
precise instructions from the band about what exactly we should play.

It's a matter of trust and respect I guess, we tend to agree to follow instructions
from people we like, and trust in their knowledge, and we don't want to do what
someone whose abilities we don't trust in wants us to do.
 
You miking up your drum kit would be like the soundguy tuning your drums and placing your cymbals how HE liked them.

Hopefully, the soundguy is competent enough to know how to EQ to the room, how to isolate instruments, how to capture sound, how to create shelves in the mix, etc. You would think that saying, "Hey, I'm just gonna place my own mics, run them through a mixer, and send you two channels." would make their life easier, but it doesn't.

A couple of things that are red flags for me. If a soundguy:
1. Asks why there isn't a porthole in the bass drum reso head, or worse...
2. Asks if he can cut a hole in the bass drum head, or worse...
3. Says it's because it will "sound better," or worse...
4. Just cuts a hole anyways when you're not looking (happened once).
5. Places the mics underneath the vibraphone (WTF are you DOING?!?!?)
 
+1

The drummer adjusting mics is tantamount to the sound guy adjusting tom angles and cymbal heights.

It's the sound guy who calls the shots, unless it's a drummer who's beyond question in their experience with sound reinforcement. Even then, the drummer should let the sound guy do his job if he seems to be doing it right.

The kick reso head hole scenario has been discussed many times. A good soundman knows how to deal with an unported head, but a good drummer doesn't insist on it. 99% of the time, a ported drum mic'd on a live gig, sounds better and poses far fewer problems than an unported head. It doesn't matter what we think it sounds like from behind the kit... the guy dealing with mics and amplification and mixing is the one who really knows if that kick - or any drum - sounds good or not.

Bermuda
 
As I said in the other thread, having a port is the standard expected thing to do and for me it's not worth arguing with the sound man over. Seriously, it sounds fine and as Bermuda said the important thing is the sound out front. Make a hole. It's no big deal.

As for mic placement I'll only say something if a mic is in my way which rarely happens since I use a very simple kit and have for many years. Happy sound man means shorter sound check which means happy drummer (in my case).
 
It's the sound guy who calls the shots, unless it's a drummer who's beyond question in their experience with sound reinforcement. Even then, the drummer should let the sound guy do his job if he seems to be doing it right.
Pretty much it. Only if the sound guy is clearly unqualified/unable/unwilling, & it's fairly certain the overall band sound will be terrible, do you consider stepping in. In almost all but the very worst situations, it's better to make the best of the situation, & move on. The overall show sound trumps drum sound every time. I get much more pissed at poor vocal presentation than I ever do with poor drum sound.

Just about the only thing you can do to pretty much guarantee the best sound possible in a given situation, is to ensure your drums sound good in the first place. In my experience, unless you're talking about the very top end of the live show spectrum, the percentage of drummers who present kits poorly tuned for the job in hand, is lamentable. Tuning for the room, tuning for the situation, recognising the different requirements for each form of reinforcement, are skills many drummers don't acquire.
 
I agree with Bermuda.. you have to trust the soundguy; they should know the room and know what works. Often the sound behind the kit and what you hear in the monitor mix is not what the audience hears... so sometimes you have to take a leap of faith. Like the last gig I played in a club that was new to me.. the sound guy put 1 mic on the kick and 2 mics on the toms.. and that was it! Weird I thought... no snare mic, no cymbal OHs.. but apparently from everyone I asked the sound was awesome for that club..Often just to make sure the soundguy isn't 'out to lunch' I 'll have one of my band mates smack the drums after sound check while I walk to the back of the room - just to make sure!
 
I usually go with the flow and I give the sound tech the benefit of the doubt.
During the past year I have purchased 3 vintage kits. I am really liking the built in mufflers for mic-ing. In the past I have used Studio Rings, but I like the dial in muffling that vintage mufflers provide. Especially on my snare. I can tune the muffler to take out just the right amount of ring.
A ported bass drum works best for a quick stage setup. It is easy to roll up a towel and insert it through the hole if it is needed.
 
Seems like less work and hassle to let the sound man handle the kit...when there is a sound man....many times we run our own sound and use acoustic drums with triggers or without depending on the club. When there is a sound man, it seems easiest to just provide a kick with port hole....and let them manage it. Less hassle, less work for me. I stay out of the way unless we bring pa and are running our own sound
 
I've never been one for telling them how to do their job either.

One thing that has always surprised me since my time on the forum, is the amount of people that will though. I never told my grandmother how to suck eggs and I never told a soundman how to get a sound. Only in the very early days of playing in micky mouse venues, did I ever encounter muppets who just weren't up to scratch. The vast majority were at least adequate, with some being downright exceptional. Most of the time, I simply had no cause to say anything at all.
 
Just about the only thing you can do to pretty much guarantee the best sound possible in a given situation, is to ensure your drums sound good in the first place. In my experience, unless you're talking about the very top end of the live show spectrum, the percentage of drummers who present kits poorly tuned for the job in hand, is lamentable. Tuning for the room, tuning for the situation, recognising the different requirements for each form of reinforcement, are skills many drummers don't acquire.

Andy (or anyone else for that matter), can you give us some advice on HOW to tune for the situation? This is something that I've struggled with recently, as I seem to find myself in vastly different venues. Outdoors under trees (trees change the sound!), in basement pubs with concrete support pillars in front of the stage (20ft away), on a stage in the middle of a beach with nothing but ocean in front of me, or even once in a long narrow low-ceiling intimate restaurant...

Being thrown into all these very different venues can be REALLY intimidating knowing that I need to adjust my sound and change the tuning of drums or adjust my playing style... Any worldly advice that you could give would be great help, or just some general tips and tricks that you've picked up on how to deal with vastly different venue conditions!
 
Well, I'm a soundguy and I tend to take guy's kits as they are and do my best. My argument with my fellow engineers is that we mic toms with no ports, and a mix of a front and back mic on a bass drum works well in some instances.

But I agree that it's the soundguy's gig to place mics and get the best sound possible for his venue.
 
...Only in the very early days of playing in micky mouse venues, did I ever encounter muppets who just weren't up to scratch...

I can't help but think that this is a personal attack on Bo.

Mods, I think we need to ban this clown.
 
It's kinda like heckling a comedian. You could have the funniest jabs, but he's the one with the microphone. That's how I look at the relationship between musicians and sound guys. I've also seen a couple drummers get an ear full from sound guys for even suggesting a different mic placement.
 
I have four rules that I use when a soundguy is running the PA at a gig:

1) Introduce myself to the soundguy immediately
2) Be extremely friendly and helpful to the soundguy
3) Buy the soundguy a drink of his/her choice
4) Thank the soundguy for the terrific job that they are doing

The soundguy is the liason between the band and the owner/organizer of the venue. The owner/organizer will definitely speak with the soundguy at some time after the show to see how things went. Even if the band was crap, even if there was nobody there, if the soundguy likes you personally then there is a good chance you are in there again. I like to work.
 
Pretty much what the others have said except if you want a certain thing then it does no harm to chat to the sound guy and tell him of any concerns you have about your drum kit. I might mention that the band is after a vintage sound, or that "my toms have lots of overtones, I hope that's not a problem". One engineer I know puts a gate on the bass drum, as a result some of the quick stuff doesn't come through, so I just mention to him that I play quick bass drum and that a gate might lose some of what I'm trying to do. There is no harm in saying that you are after a jazz sound, or a Slipnot sound etc. not that I know what a Slipnot sound is, but it might give the engineer something to work with

I think generally I try to get a feel of how the engineer responds to chatting before I dive in and say anything, some are not up for any input from the band and I leave well alone if so. But some, usually the good/experienced ones, really want to get a feel of what the band should sound like and are happy to discuss things.

But sonnygrabber said what I think is really important, always thank him afterwards and if it was a good sound tell him, if it wasn't, I just thank him, if the experience was terrible (which it often has been) I don't say anything afterwards but will complain to the venue... Don't get me started on bad experiences.
 
1) Introduce myself to the soundguy immediately
2) Be extremely friendly and helpful to the soundguy
3) Buy the soundguy a drink of his/her choice
4) Thank the soundguy for the terrific job that they are doing

Wise words! It never hurts to be a "nice guy" in this business, at every level and in any position. The concept of separation between 'talent' and 'crew' is often harmful. Everyone's in this together, and one does not get to do their job without the other.

We hear stories about how a sound guy sabotaged a mix, and perhaps it's happened a few times in history. But it's certainly true that if a musician rubs him the wrong way, he won't devote much effort to that player's (or the entire band's) sound. At that point, any discussion about preserving the sound of an open, unported kick, goes out the window.

Always best to be agreeable with the person who controls the sound. If they have an issue with how a drum sounds, and ask about it, then is the time to discuss why the drum sounds like it does, and how it can be dealt with.

I think that the best possible way to approach having drums mic'd, is for the drummer to understand why their sound needs to be reinforced, and that in a live situation, those mics - especially one sitting outside of the kick - pick up ambient sounds and can create other problems. It's also absolutely vital that drummer understands that the drums sound completely different to a mic placed 2" from the head, or inside the drum, than they do to the drummer's ear from behind the kit, with the benefit (or detriment) of low ceilings, hard walls, concrete floor, riser, room shape, etc. affecting the sound. But, the mnics don't hear that stuff, they hear the drum as it really is... if you were to put your ear right next to it!

Does the drummer know how a kick sounds and feels from behind the kit? Sure. Does he know how he wants the kick to sound out front? Of course. Does he know what the front head sounds like from a few inches away, or what the kick sounds like inside where most mics are placed? Not a chance, at least not from behind the kit.

Only the sound guy knows how those drums translate to the audience, and can control and maybe enhance that sound. Samne goes for vocals, guitar, bass, keys, etc. There's no advantage for any player to challenge or try to "one-up" the sound guy.

Bermuda
 
I've had a mix sabotaged before. The soundguy is apparently known for being an asshole and I didn't quite realize that when we played this venue. There were several bands on the bill, each getting like a 30-45 minute slot.

I quickly setup my drums on the stage and while I was grabbing my cymbals to bring them up, he was already mic'ing my kit. The drums were just sitting there, not actually adjusted or anything. I told him very nicely that I may move some drums around a little and I'll move the mics to adjust.

He got all bent out of shape and pulled all of the mics off and huffed and puffed at me saying "let me know when you're ready." I remarked back saying something like "I'm not trying to be difficult", but of course, I said it in a smartass way.

I had no monitors the entire set. I had the singer ask several times to turn the drum monitors up, but nope. Nothing.

What an ass. I learned a few lessons, though... Don't be a smartass (this is very difficult for me if someone is being a smartass to me) AND get the drums in position very quickly. For some strange reason, the soundguys I've worked with always immediately start mic'ing the drums. You'd think they go to the other instruments first, since mine could take a little longer to setup, but nope.

LOL
 
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