How do we know where to play the kick?

I find that when I'm listening to music, I usually agree with the kick pattern of the recorded drummer without really thinking about it. Does anyone else feel this?

I'm not just talking about basic rock beats where the pattern is fairly fixed, but also more complex songs/patterns. Is there something fundamental in the music that triggers the subconscious of a drummer to know where the kick belongs?

It is certainly possible to play more than one kick pattern at any time for any song, but to me, only one seems appropriate. What do you guys think?

Most times the kick drum drives along with another rhythm in the song. This can be the rhythm of the lead vocal, the rhythm guitar riff, or the bass line. This is why the kick drum in the music you're listening to sounds intuitively "right" - it's locking in with something else present int he music.

The kick helps to bring home the groove.
You feel the natural groove. You play it in the kick.
Most of us sense the kick pattern to songs just as you do.
It is a natural drummer thing.
The fact that you do it means that you are a good drummer.

You're gonna get about as many answers as people responding on this one.

I often find that most kick and drum patterns fit the song. Now trying to play them is another thing for me. I can come up with ideas in my head but struggle to translate them between my feet and legs.

OK - opposite view here. Listen to Steely Dan's Peg. The bass drum and bass guitar do not line up. Yet the song was a hit. It kinda' depends on the song, I think, moreso than the drums and bass bringing it home. If you notice, the real songs that have all withstood the test of time, can be played in any style, with any instrumentation and still get its point across.

It's easy to fall into the pattern that the bass drum and the bass guitar will fall together because it's a method that works so well, but like Peg, I'm sure there are just as many examples of songs where that doesn't happen and the song still lays well.

Bo Eder said:

OK - opposite view here. Listen to Steely Dan's Peg. The bass drum and bass guitar do not line up. Yet the song was a hit. It kinda' depends on the song, I think, moreso than the drums and bass bringing it home. If you notice, the real songs that have all withstood the test of time, can be played in any style, with any instrumentation and still get its point across.

It's easy to fall into the pattern that the bass drum and the bass guitar will fall together because it's a method that works so well, but like Peg, I'm sure there are just as many examples of songs where that doesn't happen and the song still lays well.

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Thanks, Bo. Listening to Peg, I felt like this was an example of the kick drum augmenting the vocals rather than following the bass guitar.
The kick on 1 coincides with a vocal accent while the offbeat kick accents a break in the singing. Though this pertains only to one part of the song, it still feels right to me.

Bo Eder said:

OK - opposite view here. Listen to Steely Dan's Peg. The bass drum and bass guitar do not line up. Yet the song was a hit. It kinda' depends on the song, I think, moreso than the drums and bass bringing it home. If you notice, the real songs that have all withstood the test of time, can be played in any style, with any instrumentation and still get its point across.

It's easy to fall into the pattern that the bass drum and the bass guitar will fall together because it's a method that works so well, but like Peg, I'm sure there are just as many examples of songs where that doesn't happen and the song still lays well.

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Have you seen the DVD?

gusty said:

Have you seen the DVD?

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If you mean the "Classic Albums" DVD, yeah, I own that one. But even before I saw how Peg was broken down, I always thought that feel was just genius! Like a latin band, if you took away any of the parts it would all fall apart - all the instruments were so locked together to make the one groove it was brilliant!

Bo Eder said:

If you mean the "Classic Albums" DVD, yeah, I own that one. But even before I saw how Peg was broken down, I always thought that feel was just genius! Like a latin band, if you took away any of the parts it would all fall apart - all the instruments were so locked together to make the one groove it was brilliant!

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Yeah.The DVD is awesome, just wish Steve Gadd made an appearance!

Bo Eder said:

OK - opposite view here. Listen to Steely Dan's Peg. The bass drum and bass guitar do not line up. Yet the song was a hit. It kinda' depends on the song, I think, moreso than the drums and bass bringing it home. If you notice, the real songs that have all withstood the test of time, can be played in any style, with any instrumentation and still get its point across.

It's easy to fall into the pattern that the bass drum and the bass guitar will fall together because it's a method that works so well, but like Peg, I'm sure there are just as many examples of songs where that doesn't happen and the song still lays well.

Click to expand...

I hear the bass drum accenting the beginning of bass runs that being on the "e" and "and" of 3. In almost every bar, the bass player begins a run of sixteenths on the "e" of 3 leading across beat 4, though the first note of the run is like a pickup, so the strong pulse in the phrase is on the "and" which is where the bass drum falls. Essentially the bass drum is landing on two of 3 strong points in a very busy bass part. While not matching every note (which would kill the groove) it clearly follows/emphasizes the rise and fall of the bass phrasing. Also, the hihat part is emphasising the length of the "and" of two with the bass. This follows a common rhythmic structure of cutting 8/8 into 3, 3 and 2, which is related to the 3:2 Clave. Playing the bass drum there completes the 3:2 clave figure begun by the bass, keys (and sax) which is then answered on the bass and drums.