DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #121  
Old 05-31-2012, 02:13 AM
Chunky's Avatar
Chunky Chunky is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 851
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikel View Post
Right on Aydee.

Listen to the early Stones stuf,f and Free albums. The music drifts with the emotion prevailing and it sounds and feels perfect. It could be changed by computer to fit with a click but it would not improve the recording.

It is human for the tempo to fluctuate slightly during a song, even top concert orchestras do this.

Its only rock and roll, its not supposed to be perfect, its supposed to feel good.
Just like straight lines look better drawn without a ruler....

I'm sorry but, I think this is ridiculous. To me there are 4 types of time:

Drum machine time

Tight drummer to a metronome time

Free-time

And out of time.

A tight drummer does not lose the 'feel' playing amazingly well to a click as no-matter how tight they play there is not a chance that all 4 limbs are exactly spot on the beat everytime, there is still tiny nuances.

Also since when did playing in time equate to 'no feeling'?
Even drum machines on dance and pop songs can feel good.

Another rumour created by frightened drummers I think...
__________________
I like my drum sound fat and simple. Just like me.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 05-31-2012, 02:34 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 5,512
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
Just like straight lines look better drawn without a ruler....
You hit the nail on the head. Straight lines DO look better freehand than ruled ... when drawn by an artist with good flow ... as per Jim Flora pic below.

It's the main reason we haven't been 100% replaced by machines. That, cymbals and we look cool :)



Chunky, bear in mind that some bands put their clicks to a tempo map where a chorus may speed or slow by a few BPM. Bermuda told me about that. Sometimes it's good for a chorus to lift a few BPM, but that tempo would sound rushed in the verses. Happens all the time ... or at least it used to.
__________________
Soundcloud
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 05-31-2012, 02:48 AM
Chunky's Avatar
Chunky Chunky is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 851
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
You hit the nail on the head. Straight lines DO look better freehand than ruled ... when drawn by an artist with good flow ... as per Jim Flora pic below.

It's the main reason we haven't been 100% replaced by machines. That, cymbals and we look cool :)



Chunky, bear in mind that some bands put their clicks to a tempo map where a chorus may speed or slow by a few BPM. Bermuda told me about that. Sometimes it's good for a chorus to lift a few BPM, but that tempo would sound rushed in the verses. Happens all the time ... or at least it used to.

Lol, how did I just know you'd have N answer to this?! Hahaha.

Them lines are still inferior. Not my cup of tea...

I know what your getting at, we have a couple of tunes like this ourselves where we've struggled recording them to a click because we pull this.part then push this bit but, not enough so you can really tell it's happening.

But, some songs call for strict time and I'm sticking to my guns about strict time and drum machine music still feeling good. It does not lose it's 'feel' because the the computer playing it back has no feelings...

When I donate my body to science and walk out of Cyberdyne as a Terminator I'll lay down the sweetest, most rigidly timed beat you've ever heard and you'll have to admit it feels good.

Or be terminated...
__________________
I like my drum sound fat and simple. Just like me.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 05-31-2012, 05:50 AM
New Tricks New Tricks is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,037
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Since we are off track here anyway....

I started to learn to play decades before click tracks. As a band, we always thought we were tight.

Recently, in my comeback era, I/we have been experimenting with triggering some recorded backing tracks like simple snyth parts, and it has been an eye opening experience.

When four humans are playing together, all four can make miniscule adjustments to keep the song on track and sounding flawless. When three of us are playing and the sampler chimes in, it is unwavering and it demands that it's human counterparts adjust to it's tempo.

My bass player always thought he had some kind of built in perfect metronome. For weeks, he questioned the integrity of the machine until finally realizing that maybe he is not perfect. The purpose of the sampler was to replace our keyboard who sucked but now we have a whole nother set of issues dealing with this new prima donna.



Ringo rocks!
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:37 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 5,512
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
Them lines are still inferior. Not my cup of tea...
That's taste. I'd take Jim Flora's art over more "perfect" perfect straight lines anyway. I'd also take Black Sabs over perfectly lines up modern metal.

You might like this old toon I did ..."the stark, almost geometric background"

__________________
Soundcloud
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 05-31-2012, 03:05 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
Just like straight lines look better drawn without a ruler....

I'm sorry but, I think this is ridiculous. To me there are 4 types of time:

Drum machine time

Tight drummer to a metronome time

Free-time

And out of time.

A tight drummer does not lose the 'feel' playing amazingly well to a click as no-matter how tight they play there is not a chance that all 4 limbs are exactly spot on the beat everytime, there is still tiny nuances.

Also since when did playing in time equate to 'no feeling'?
Even drum machines on dance and pop songs can feel good.

Another rumour created by frightened drummers I think...
So....you are saying the rock music from the 60s and 70s, recorded without click/metronome, would be improved by adjusting it to fit a click by computer? Yea right.

This is a rumour created by drummers frightened to play anything without the assistance of a click/metronome.
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 05-31-2012, 03:24 PM
plangentmusic
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

I don't think it's one way or the other. Some people are anti "metronomic time" as an excuse to be sloppy. But ANY band that grooves, has to have solid time. My playing improved tremendously after working more with drum machines.

In recording situations, using a click is simply a more efficient way to get the parts to fit together.

And here's something that puts it all into place.

When my son was a baby we were having a party and the radio was on and all this high tech music was playing. HUGE drum sounds all over the place! And there was my son just playing with his toys. Then....Magic Carpet Ride came on. And he started bopping to the music.

A completely innocent reaction that reveals the power of "the groove."







........
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 05-31-2012, 04:30 PM
Large's Avatar
Large Large is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mexico
Posts: 101
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

I allways said to all those guys who thinks Ringo is not a good drummer: "Chose one different song from every Beatles' album, and try to play it on drums. After doing that, come on and tell me, do you still think he's that so bad?"

The only way to know when a drummer is good or bad, it's playing their work.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 05-31-2012, 04:40 PM
Chunky's Avatar
Chunky Chunky is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 851
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikel View Post
So....you are saying the rock music from the 60s and 70s, recorded without click/metronome, would be improved by adjusting it to fit a click by computer? Yea right.

This is a rumour created by drummers frightened to play anything without the assistance of a click/metronome.
Yes I am. Just like I think it would sound better with better/modern production.

I'm a perfectionist.
__________________
I like my drum sound fat and simple. Just like me.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 05-31-2012, 04:47 PM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 5,512
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
I'm a perfectionist.
... with an ear for contemporary music.

Then you could improve, say, The Jimi Hendrix Experience by replacing Jimi with Joe Satriani, put Gram Parsons on vocals, Tony Levin for Noel Redding and Benny Greb to replace Mitch on drums and it would be perfect!

Perfectly dull :)

Hey, you're right in a way. On a personal level it's great for us to strive for spot on time. But, as a listener, perfection is a non issue for me.
__________________
Soundcloud
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 05-31-2012, 05:00 PM
Chunky's Avatar
Chunky Chunky is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 851
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
... with an ear for contemporary music.

Then you could improve, say, The Jimi Hendrix Experience by replacing Jimi with Joe Satriani, put Gram Parsons on vocals, Tony Levin for Noel Redding and Benny Greb to replace Mitch on drums and it would be perfect!

Perfectly dull :)

Hey, you're right in a way. On a personal level it's great for us to strive for spot on time. But, as a listener, perfection is a non issue for me.
I wish I could be that way.
In many ways when I became a musician it killed music. I still love it, it's my life but, I don't listek to it in the same way. always working out the productions techniques, observing the mix, working out why they've done what where and was that sloppy take or cut in I just heard?

Fortunately these thoughts haven't poisoned my art so much.

You're right though, it's just a matter of opinion.
__________________
I like my drum sound fat and simple. Just like me.
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 05-31-2012, 05:50 PM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 3,895
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

The fact that some people think time needs to be perfect while others find something to appreciate in music where it's not speaks volumes about how personal music is. It's an art form, first and foremost. Despite efforts to make it about commerce or science, at the end of the day, people like it or they don't, without need to explain or justify why.

It's like I often say, if you want to win arguments, pick something other than music to discuss.
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 05-31-2012, 09:12 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
Yes I am. Just like I think it would sound better with better/modern production.

I'm a perfectionist.
Hey, no offence, I admire your stance , but you are wrong.

Music is an art, not a science. Also there is no such thing as perfection. Except, of course, for Howling Wolf singing Smokestack Lightning.
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:17 PM
_Leviathan_ _Leviathan_ is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 177
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikel View Post
Hey, no offence, I admire your stance , but you are wrong.

Music is an art, not a science. Also there is no such thing as perfection. Except, of course, for Howling Wolf singing Smokestack Lightning.
Music is an art, but even in an art, there are elements of science. Don't believe me? Play a gig without microphones, and tune the toms just above flapping. Then tune the toms up to a higher pitch, and they will project more to the audience than extremely loose heads. People can disagree about whether something sounds good or not, but there are scientific facts about which frequencies will project better to an audience. Also, drums with inconsistent bearing edges will be more difficult to consistently tune. If it is all art, and totally subjective, then why do people make such a big deal about bearing edges, and for that matter, the kind of wood and construction quality of a drum? Why don't you just go on stage with a garbage can modified with tuning pegs and drum heads? ;)

In the same way, as long as the player follows the click throughout, a song will be more consistent with a click than without. You can look at the time through a 4:00 song, with a graph, and analyze the time. That is just a scientific fact. To Chunky, more accurate=better. Many young people that have been raised with music constructed with drum machines and metronomes all their life feel the same. You could disagree, and say imperfect time is superior to metronomic time, but to deny that the goal of perfection exists is like saying when you shoot at a target, there is no bullseye. For a 4/4 song at 130 BPM, the bullseye is keeping that tempo for the entire song. You may not get there, but that is the goal.

We are timekeepers, are we not? Is that not our function? Why try to keep accurate time at all if the goal isn't to keep the band in time as best we can? For some music (rock, metal, pop, etc.), metronomes are the standard in 2012, even live.
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:33 PM
New Tricks New Tricks is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,037
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikel View Post
Music is an art, not a science.
It's both actually, along with matmatical.

Certain combinations of notes elecit certain responses in humans and there must be a scientific reason that so many "hit" songs use the same patterns of notes.

Quote:
We are timekeepers, are we not? Is that not our function?
I would agree that we are he timekeepers but, there is more than one way to keep time.

Your way would be to force every band member to adhere to the strict BPM. Another way would be to make slight adjustments throughout the song in order to keep it together.

Maybe one player/singer tends to lag a touch during a certain segment of the song, trying to deal with his dual responsibilities. In a perfect world, he would learn to play his parts flawlessly. In the real world, the drummer, along with the rest of the band, can use their super computer brains and make the necessary adjustments so that no one could tell, without a click playing in the background.

I have learned that, from beginning to end, a song can waver a great deal in tempo (maybe 6 BPM?) and never be noticed by 99% of the listeners.



My thoughts are, strive for perfection in order to achieve acceptability.

Last edited by New Tricks; 05-31-2012 at 10:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:52 PM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 5,512
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
I wish I could be that way.
In many ways when I became a musician it killed music. I still love it, it's my life but, I don't listek to it in the same way. always working out the productions techniques, observing the mix, working out why they've done what where and was that sloppy take or cut in I just heard?

Fortunately these thoughts haven't poisoned my art so much.

You're right though, it's just a matter of opinion.
Oh well, you love drumming so that makes up for sacrificing a little listening pleasure.

I felt like that too until I took a long break. I don't think I did any practice, just rehearsals, jams and gigs - from 1987 to 1998 and didn't play at all from then to late 2006.

That's when I listened like I did as a child again, like a layperson. I've become "musicianised" again but not as heavily as before.

I think it's worth holding onto that old way of listening, and you don't need a break to do it. If you want to keep the magic in your marriage you have to work at it, same with your music if you're a musician. If you build ships you don't want to only look at the scaffolding but occasionally stand back and enjoy the whole. It's all about standing back and taking in the panorama.

Not sure if the above are brain farts or actually relevant ... it's about 5:30am and I've had about 4 hours sleep, but this house gets cold and I keep waking up in the middle of the night ...
__________________
Soundcloud
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:16 PM
_Leviathan_ _Leviathan_ is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 177
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post
It's both actually, along with matmatical.

Certain combinations of notes elecit certain responses in humans and there must be a scientific reason that so many "hit" songs use the same patterns of notes.



I would agree that we are he timekeepers but, there is more than one way to keep time.

Your way would be to force every band member to adhere to the strict BPM. Another way would be to make slight adjustments throughout the song in order to keep it together.

Maybe one player/singer tends to lag a touch during a certain segment of the song, trying to deal with his dual responsibilities. In a perfect world, he would learn to play his parts flawlessly. In the real world, the drummer, along with the rest of the band, can use their super computer brains and make the necessary adjustments so that no one could tell, without a click playing in the background.

I have learned that, from beginning to end, a song can waver a great deal in tempo (maybe 6 BPM?) and never be noticed by 99% of the listeners.



My thoughts are, strive for perfection in order to achieve acceptability.
I agree that there is some point (maybe 5,6 BPM fluctuations or less) where most of the audience won't notice little changes. But if our goal is to keep time, what is wrong with having (close to) metronomic time as long as you don't have a metronomic feel? Since metronomes have become the standard in public music, many players have had to "up their game" so to speak and become better timekeepers in order to appear on recordings, or to play live with "flown in" elements from the recordings.

A human will never be 100% dead on to a click through a whole song, but that is what I was after when I gave the analogy of the bullseye. You try to shoot dead center, but if you don't, it's no big deal. But the intent when you take a shot is to be dead center, even if you don't achieve it, or never achieve it.

For better or worse, the standards have gone up for timekeeping. You could argue that a lot of clicks are used live to coordinate loops, flown-in backup vocals, and other elements, but there are bands that just use guitars/bass/drums/vocals that do it too.
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:28 PM
New Tricks New Tricks is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,037
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Leviathan_ View Post
. But if our goal is to keep time, what is wrong with having (close to) metronomic time as long as you don't have a metronomic feel?
Nothing at all wrong with it. I support it 100%




Quote:
For better or worse, the standards have gone up for timekeeping
Again, I would agree and I think it's better.

Quote:
But the intent when you take a shot is to be dead center, even if you don't achieve it, or never achieve it.
That's exactly what I was trying to say with my "strive for perfection in order to achieve acceptability".


Quote:
You could argue that a lot of clicks are used live to coordinate loops, flown-in backup vocals, and other elements, but there are bands that just use guitars/bass/drums/vocals that do it too.
That's where I might draw my line. I am still new to playing with a click. I think it's a great learning tool but, at the point I am at, it takes away from the pleasure of playing. I'd rather be listening to the other instruments and vocals than a metronome. Also, the reason I play is for my benefit. If I was a professional I suppose I might treat it more like a job and just do my part.
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 06-01-2012, 03:19 AM
_Leviathan_ _Leviathan_ is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 177
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post
Nothing at all wrong with it. I support it 100%






Again, I would agree and I think it's better.



That's exactly what I was trying to say with my "strive for perfection in order to achieve acceptability".




That's where I might draw my line. I am still new to playing with a click. I think it's a great learning tool but, at the point I am at, it takes away from the pleasure of playing. I'd rather be listening to the other instruments and vocals than a metronome. Also, the reason I play is for my benefit. If I was a professional I suppose I might treat it more like a job and just do my part.
Agreed. I can play simple and rock solid to a click, but am limited to the basics with a metronome because I don't have a ton of experience with it either. When I play live, I like to feed off the audience's energy and in turn, it makes me more excited to play things that people seem to like, which makes them more excited. So it is a cycle of positive vibes. I prefer to play off the audience and the other instruments instead of click-click-click-click.
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 06-01-2012, 05:12 AM
Chunky's Avatar
Chunky Chunky is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 851
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikel View Post
Hey, no offence, I admire your stance , but you are wrong.

Music is an art, not a science. Also there is no such thing as perfection. Except, of course, for Howling Wolf singing Smokestack Lightning.
No offence taken but, YOU are wrong.

Not because you have a different opinion to me but, because you think your opinion is right and mine wrong. We are both right AND wrong.
We just have different views or personal preferences.

I love the musical and creative side of music as much as anybody else but, I also love and study the science of it. it's took me and my band a long time to aquire the gear we have and open our own studio so we had to learn how to get the best sound out of crap equipment at first and work our way up.
If we did.'t put the work in we'd still have a crap sound even with good gear and we'd be paying someone money we don't have to record.
Instead we learnt everyones role and did it all ourselves and the science is a massive part of it.

I'm not a big fan of black and white movies either and I'm fast going off any movie I own that isn't blu-ray and re-buying them.
Better is better, why go backwards?

I haven't lost my soul in the digital age. well, actually sometimes my touchscreen phone doesn't detect me and automatic doors never open for me....

Ah nooooo!
__________________
I like my drum sound fat and simple. Just like me.
Reply With Quote
  #141  
Old 06-01-2012, 05:50 AM
plangentmusic
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
No offence taken but, YOU are wrong.

Not because you have a different opinion to me but, because you think your opinion is right and mine wrong. We are both right AND wrong.
We just have different views or personal preferences.

I love the musical and creative side of music as much as anybody else but, I also love and study the science of it. it's took me and my band a long time to aquire the gear we have and open our own studio so we had to learn how to get the best sound out of crap equipment at first and work our way up.
If we did.'t put the work in we'd still have a crap sound even with good gear and we'd be paying someone money we don't have to record.
Instead we learnt everyones role and did it all ourselves and the science is a massive part of it.

I'm not a big fan of black and white movies either and I'm fast going off any movie I own that isn't blu-ray and re-buying them.
Better is better, why go backwards?

I haven't lost my soul in the digital age. well, actually sometimes my touchscreen phone doesn't detect me and automatic doors never open for me....

Ah nooooo!
So the latest Adam Sandler movie is better than Casablanca? Okeedokee.

You may be confusing "newer" with better. In fact, I know you are. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, sometimes it's just different.
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 06-01-2012, 05:53 AM
Chunky's Avatar
Chunky Chunky is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 851
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by plangentmusic View Post
So the latest Adam Sandler movie is better than Casablanca? Okeedokee.

You may be confusing "newer" with better. In fact, I know you are. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, sometimes it's just different.
Don't play ignorant. What I'm saying is with todays instruments, technology and methods we can make better recordings or films. It's down to the people doing it to make it good though.
__________________
I like my drum sound fat and simple. Just like me.
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 06-01-2012, 06:14 AM
plangentmusic
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
Don't play ignorant. What I'm saying is with todays instruments, technology and methods we can make better recordings or films. It's down to the people doing it to make it good though.
True. But you said you don't watch B&W films -- as if to suggest they were inferior. Or am I missing something?

And isn;t it interesting that more people are going back to analogue instruments. And passive pickups. And simple strainers on snare drums. What happened to the "improvements?"
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 06-01-2012, 07:58 AM
Chunky's Avatar
Chunky Chunky is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 851
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by plangentmusic View Post
True. But you said you don't watch B&W films -- as if to suggest they were inferior. Or am I missing something?

And isn;t it interesting that more people are going back to analogue instruments. And passive pickups. And simple strainers on snare drums. What happened to the "improvements?"
Well yes, I did suggest that. The acting may be as good as if not better than any modern movie, the soundtrack might be great, the story might be a best seller but, the wholw package is just inferior to me (yes, just me) as we've moved on and can do things better now. I hate the sound of the badly recorded strings on old movies etc..

Personal taste but, imagine if the directors of those movies had the tools we have at our disposal today?

They whole trend of going back to the old ways is a load of rubbish too. usually a marketing stunt. The bands that do do it either end up with an album that sounds like a forced, fake, half hearted attempt at recapturing their old sound or it's done with new twchnology THEN put on anolog tape or cheated out in some way that makes the whole process pointless and only good to read and shout out at interviews to get interest from people.

One of the only things I think we've taken a step back in with sound tech is the volume war. We've lost dynamics and squashed our sound. Most records clip and distort.
Kind of silly in an age where we have louder, better speakers for cheaper prices. whatever happenex to just turning stuff up?

That's a whole other can of worms though! lol
__________________
I like my drum sound fat and simple. Just like me.
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 06-01-2012, 08:52 AM
Bull's Avatar
Bull Bull is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,402
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

The idea of perfect time arose out of the desire or need for producers and engineers to make everything easier for themselves.No need to worry about keeping those pesky musicians in the studio any more than you have to, just to get good sounds .Click it,quantize it and sound replace it. You can now use someone else's sounds. You only need to get one good pass of any part ..Perfect time allows you to cut and paste. The song repeats the chorus 3 times? You only have to sing it once.Live? The backing tracks and light show are all synched to the click.The L.D. is having a beer. The drums have to be "perfect" so that no one else has to be even close.
You can't tell me this doesn't sterilize things.

rant over Lol
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 06-01-2012, 09:33 AM
Chunky's Avatar
Chunky Chunky is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 851
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Ok you win, out of time playes are more pure, they sound better and they have soul because they play worse.....

You see the sprinter who came in last? he was the best. The winner was sterile and had a terrible feel. strived for perfection got that medal round his neck and really? he has no soul and is inferior.

Whatever man....
__________________
I like my drum sound fat and simple. Just like me.
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 06-01-2012, 11:19 AM
Pocket-full-of-gold's Avatar
Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 11,278
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
Ok you win, out of time playes are more pure, they sound better and they have soul because they play worse.....
A bridge too far now me old mate. There is a big......no make that, huge difference between an "out of time" player and one who doesn't rigidly adhere to a click whilst playing. No-one is talking about time that meanders around the country side here. No-one is advocating that it's acceptable to move from 100bpm whilst being unaware that you're rushing to 120bpm before over correcting the pull back to 85bpm, all within the same passage.

But if you can honestly sit there and tell me that drummers couldn't hold a tempo that was not only steady, but also served their music well in days gone by, purely because they didn't play to a click track then you're walking around blindfolded. :-)

Last edited by Pocket-full-of-gold; 06-01-2012 at 03:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 06-01-2012, 12:25 PM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,413
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

...

Well, there's this old joke about when Steve Gadd plays with a metronome, the metronome follows him...

...
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 06-01-2012, 02:35 PM
plangentmusic
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
Well yes, I did suggest that. The acting may be as good as if not better than any modern movie, the soundtrack might be great, the story might be a best seller but, the wholw package is just inferior to me (yes, just me) as we've moved on and can do things better now. I hate the sound of the badly recorded strings on old movies etc..

Personal taste but, imagine if the directors of those movies had the tools we have at our disposal today?

They whole trend of going back to the old ways is a load of rubbish too. usually a marketing stunt. The bands that do do it either end up with an album that sounds like a forced, fake, half hearted attempt at recapturing their old sound or it's done with new twchnology THEN put on anolog tape or cheated out in some way that makes the whole process pointless and only good to read and shout out at interviews to get interest from people.

One of the only things I think we've taken a step back in with sound tech is the volume war. We've lost dynamics and squashed our sound. Most records clip and distort.
Kind of silly in an age where we have louder, better speakers for cheaper prices. whatever happenex to just turning stuff up?

That's a whole other can of worms though! lol
I think you have some valid points but you're taking it to an extreme all conclusive conclusion and that is simply way too narrow for me. I get the point about the old school guys working with today's improvements.A perfect example is McCartney playing Beatles songs with better amps and instruments. But the trend for older sounds is not just marketing --- it's actually an improvement of people's ears. Sometimes things sound good because they're newer, or brighter or louder and as the ear adapts we hear the "falsness" of it. Case in point -- fiberglass drums.

As for films being better because the technology is better is just silly. Sorry. That's like saying Justin Beiber is better than Beethoven because of he used better technology.
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 06-01-2012, 05:57 PM
Chunky's Avatar
Chunky Chunky is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 851
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by plangentmusic View Post
I think you have some valid points but you're taking it to an extreme all conclusive conclusion and that is simply way too narrow for me. I get the point about the old school guys working with today's improvements.A perfect example is McCartney playing Beatles songs with better amps and instruments. But the trend for older sounds is not just marketing --- it's actually an improvement of people's ears. Sometimes things sound good because they're newer, or brighter or louder and as the ear adapts we hear the "falsness" of it. Case in point -- fiberglass drums.

As for films being better because the technology is better is just silly. Sorry. That's like saying Justin Beiber is better than Beethoven because of he used better technology.
Again you've taken what i've said out of context. I'm not saying everything new is better, every new movie or song to a click is better.
What I'm saying is it has the potential to be better.
Like I've said before, even the best drummers playing to a click are not in perfect time, but they're closer and surely that's a good thing. This no-click point is a massive grey area 'cos I've heard loads of old stuff, even new stuff that hasn't been played to a click and when I hear the tempo waver, speed up or slow down it really spoils it for me.

I'm not talking about the clever use of pushing parts or pulling parts, that can still be done with a click wity modern methods.
I'm saying the guys who noticeabley speed up on records would sound better playing to a click.

You can all say I'm wrong but, most pro sound engineers and producers will disagree and that is why THIS is the modern standard. Infact it's just the standard full stop now.

Do what you want live, you can get away with murder to drunken crowds, pumped up at festivals but, you won't get away with that on record and this why session players replace so many drummers.
__________________
I like my drum sound fat and simple. Just like me.
Reply With Quote
  #151  
Old 06-01-2012, 06:10 PM
shambo's Avatar
shambo shambo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 76
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by plangentmusic View Post
I don't get this. It's a talk forum, not a reference library. Not everyone has been here for years. Let someone get a conversation going and those who want to join in may do so and those who don't, don't have to. Forums are self regulated -- the thread stays up only if people engage, otherwise, it falls.
Amen brother...Best post I've seen in a long time. This is the only forum I visit regularly anymore as people here are mostly respectful and have a TON of knowledge, experience and great advice that is on topic. I'll stay away from Ringo to avoid a cyber beat down.
__________________
At home on the chaos loop
Reply With Quote
  #152  
Old 06-01-2012, 06:16 PM
Mad About Drums's Avatar
Mad About Drums Mad About Drums is offline
Pollyanna's Agent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shropshire, UK
Posts: 6,227
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aydee View Post
...

Well, there's this old joke about when Steve Gadd plays with a metronome, the metronome follows him...

...
I read an interview of Al Di Meola, he said that Steve Gadd didn't use a metronome or any kind of drum machine to record the album "Electric Rendez-Vous", considering the complexity of the music and the rythms, it's absolutely amazing, what a inner clock that guy's got, it's ridiculous.
__________________
I'm Swissman
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old 06-01-2012, 10:02 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
No offence taken but, YOU are wrong.

Not because you have a different opinion to me but, because you think your opinion is right and mine wrong. We are both right AND wrong.
We just have different views or personal preferences.

I love the musical and creative side of music as much as anybody else but, I also love and study the science of it. it's took me and my band a long time to aquire the gear we have and open our own studio so we had to learn how to get the best sound out of crap equipment at first and work our way up.
If we did.'t put the work in we'd still have a crap sound even with good gear and we'd be paying someone money we don't have to record.
Instead we learnt everyones role and did it all ourselves and the science is a massive part of it.

I'm not a big fan of black and white movies either and I'm fast going off any movie I own that isn't blu-ray and re-buying them.
Better is better, why go backwards?

I haven't lost my soul in the digital age. well, actually sometimes my touchscreen phone doesn't detect me and automatic doors never open for me....

Ah nooooo!
Fast going off any movie you own if it is not Blue Ray?

So the recording quality is more important than the content. " Better is better" is it?

As far as I am concerned a good story well told is worth more than all the new technology.

How many cinema audiences have you heard coming out of a filming saying "I have no idea what that was about but the recording was crystal clear you could almost see the pores in there skin.

It is the story being told or the song that is king, what it is recorded on makes no difference. The early black American Blues recordings are still sublime, despite being recorded in a living room in one take, direct to disc.

I have all the new technology but it fails to make a poor song sound any better or a poor film more watchable.
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old 06-01-2012, 10:24 PM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,413
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
I read an interview of Al Di Meola, he said that Steve Gadd didn't use a metronome or any kind of drum machine to record the album "Electric Rendez-Vous", considering the complexity of the music and the rythms, it's absolutely amazing, what a inner clock that guy's got, it's ridiculous.
Henri, imo I think sometimes when people say a 'guys got great time', or he 'buries the click', they think he is hitting a decimal point or a dot..like a bullseye or something. Actually, a better way to think of it is a horizontal line, and the art lies in where on that line the drummer places the beat. That entire line is still 'in time'.

Perfect quantization is a terrible thing. To err is human, I thought.. and human is good.

...
Reply With Quote
  #155  
Old 06-01-2012, 11:43 PM
conchrandy conchrandy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 162
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Amazes me he continues to make every GOAT list. Good groove and musicality but horribly deficient in raw talent. A week 7 out of 10.
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Old 06-02-2012, 12:07 AM
New Tricks New Tricks is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,037
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bull View Post
The idea of perfect time arose out of the desire or need for producers and engineers to make everything easier for themselves.No need to worry about keeping those pesky musicians in the studio any more than you have to, just to get good sounds .Click it,quantize it and sound replace it. You can now use someone else's sounds. You only need to get one good pass of any part ..Perfect time allows you to cut and paste. The song repeats the chorus 3 times? You only have to sing it once.Live? The backing tracks and light show are all synched to the click.The L.D. is having a beer. The drums have to be "perfect" so that no one else has to be even close.
You can't tell me this doesn't sterilize things.

rant over Lol

I'm going to agree with this^
Reply With Quote
  #157  
Old 06-02-2012, 02:57 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 5,512
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
I've heard loads of old stuff, even new stuff that hasn't been played to a click and when I hear the tempo waver, speed up or slow down it really spoils it for me.
Chunky, I both envy and pity you. To be as time-sensitive as you are suggests that you're better suited to drumming than I am. I have forgiving ears, which is great for me as a listener but not as a player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
In fact it's just the standard full stop now.
Do what you want live, you can get away with murder to drunken crowds, pumped up at festivals but, you won't get away with that on record and this why session players replace so many drummers.[/quote]

What's a recording but a musical photograph? Of course we're going to suck our in our tummies. It's for posterity (be it for 5 days or 50 years).

However, IMO the law of diminishing returns applies once time and tempo reaches a certain point ... the certain point being the part we're talking about. A lot of those old great session players who replaced the original drummers didn't need clicks to sound "good enough".

For me as a listener, the tempo only needs to be accurate enough to not hinder the song's expression, and that depends on the players, the genre and the situation.

There's two different "out of times" - there's normal "out of time" as with a hack like me and then there's artistic use of timing in the hands of master drummers, who can control microtiming to the point where tiny anticipations, delays and dynamic variations are the difference between professionalism and musical magic.

Hacks like me hope for those flukes where our out of timeness lands in the magical sweet spot. It's a high risk strategy - too much risk for professional situations, outside of some lucky grunge, indie and blues acts.

Consistency is a good aim for hobby hacks (again, like me haha) - and boy, do I need more of that - but it's not always the highest aim. It can be in some music, but there's more sophisticated levels out there http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE6Ptqw3DYc.

For me, so much of music is about inspired moments and passages and the kind of lead ins and outtros that makes those passages work. As a hobby hack, I'm not going to sacrifice that vibe with a click. All I need is the pad, a 'nome and some discipline to tidy up my stroke and tempo.

The economic rationalist suits that pushed this quantised musical Farex on us can go take a running jump, and if you have already been indoctrinated to be their bitch then be my guest ;-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bull View Post
The idea of perfect time arose out of the desire or need for producers and engineers to make everything easier for themselves.
Yes. There's a focus on mechanical perfection because that's cheaper and much easier to achieve than the organic perfection of strong jazz and funk players.
__________________
Soundcloud
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old 06-02-2012, 03:03 AM
Bull's Avatar
Bull Bull is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,402
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Trust me. Gadd,Colaiuta,or J.R. aren't asked to play to clicks because their time isn't good enough for 3.5 minute tune.It's to make the track easier to manipulate.
Reply With Quote
  #159  
Old 06-02-2012, 03:10 AM
shambo's Avatar
shambo shambo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 76
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by plangentmusic View Post

I've performed singing and playing guitar, playing piano, playing bass and playing drums and I have to say, by far, drums is easiest. (Bass is hardest).
I know a lot of people that can play drums... 4/4 hi hat, bass on 1 and 3 and sneak in the snare on 2 and 4. My wife can do that. I don't know a lot of people that can play really well, artistic, complementary, inspirational, creative, awe inspiring, etc. Appreciate the observation from someone who has performed in all of those roles.
__________________
At home on the chaos loop
Reply With Quote
  #160  
Old 06-02-2012, 03:19 AM
plangentmusic
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ringo Starr... Good or bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shambo View Post
I know a lot of people that can play drums... 4/4 hi hat, bass on 1 and 3 and sneak in the snare on 2 and 4. My wife can do that. I don't know a lot of people that can play really well, artistic, complementary, inspirational, creative, awe inspiring, etc. Appreciate the observation from someone who has performed in all of those roles.
I'm not sure what that has to do with singing and playing drums as opposed to singing and playing other instruments. (?) (Or maybe you took it out of context -- according to the quote it looks like I'm just comparing instruments).
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com