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  #201  
Old 03-30-2006, 10:48 AM
Stu_Strib
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Well I'm learning, but I guess I'm just not agreeing. Branford's discography alone makes him susceptible to criticism in my book. He has a ton of dubious pop projects, bordering on the limits of "sell-out" in my book (although I'm not going there all the way, based on the other's opinions in here). Tonight Show, Mo'Better Blues, Sting, Harry Connick Jr., ...I thought this guy was a Jazz musician ;-)

To be fair, he has a ton of jazz projects and I see he played sax on my ever-recurring "Black Codes (from the Underground)"...man I'm glad I have that album..gives me something to fall back on, hehe!
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  #202  
Old 03-30-2006, 11:12 AM
OZjazzer
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renato

second - cat bags on Elvin! He said in Modern Drummer - I don't have the issue but It's there - who has it? Check me - he said he came from a school of technique and that was why he couldn't "hear" Elvin. After he said that he tries to pay ELvin a compliment about his phrasing. BS! Elvin eats Hamilton for breakfast - especially uptempos.(and yes I have seen mighty Elvin many times - 40- 50 times...I miss him too)I thought it was disrespectful of Hamilton to slight a master and innovator who was still living like Elvin. SO THAT IS HUGE FOR ME!

Third - he has this "I am an Elder Statesmen of Jazz" attitude. BS - Jack Dejohnette and Roy Haynes and Tootie Heath and Max Roach and Louie Bellson are the elder Statesmen of jazz drumming. His soloing comes off as "listen up here is how it's done and anything else is wrong". Again this all comes from a clinic I was at.
Now you two is that it? Is that the quote that means Jeff Hamilton is crap?

You've got to be joking - he said, or at least you guys claim he said 'he can't hear Elvin'. IS THAT IT? IS THAT WHAT ALL THIS BAGGING IS ALL ABOUT? You have to be joking. Not everybody in the world has to love and adore everything about Elvin Jones! Jeff Hamilton is more than entitled to a view about jazz drummers and drumming - after he is actually an elder statesmen of jazz. Guys Jeff Hamilton can play fast, but just not fast enough for you guys. Would the electric chair be enough or should he be publicly hanged?


And gregg you know I meant Joshua Redman and not Dewey. I'd rather drink muddy water than listen to Dewey (did he ever get that instrument to play in tune?) I guess not.

And now Remo drums are crap as well. Nothing is safe on this thread. All I said was that his rides are very washy!

Stu, no it's the Branford Marsalis Quartet version I am referring to. The Marsalis family must have bought Love Supreme in bulk.


Phil Woods has very strong opinions about 'college graduate' jazz players - I'm beginning to understand his point of view.
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  #203  
Old 03-30-2006, 11:22 AM
fly fly is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Brandford isnt a sell -out, I admire the fact that he has the balls to play A Love SUpreme, and also Sonny Rollin's The Freedom Suite. I actually dig Brandford playing the Sonny stuff more, its pretty tasty swingin trio stuff. I havent seen the DVD though so I cant really say anything about that, but I have the cd Footsteps of our Fathers and theres some great playing on that.

OJAzzer- I cant agree with your comparing of Jeff Ballard, Ari, or Blade to someone like Carl Allen. But yea also the comments about Tain and Blade just dont sit right. Especially about Blade, I think Blades most happening thing is how he listens and reacts to the moment, he can be extremly selfless and supportive, he does a great job of letting the music happen naturally without forcing anything. Tain 's ryhtmic concept also was influential in someone like Ari Hoenig, even though Ari doesnt sound like Tain.
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  #204  
Old 03-30-2006, 11:40 AM
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finnhiggins finnhiggins is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OZjazzer
Hamilton can't play fast? Mmm I can't quote a track right now but I think it's more to do with those trashy over-washy Bos rides he plays, it's very hard to hear any real ride cymbal definition in live situations (but he's not alone with that problem). Trouble is he owns a third of Bos so I guess he's stuck with them.
Nothing wrong with Bos, but the Hammer stuff is way, way at the washy end of even their range. The Turks and so forth are a lot more dry. Personally I quite like the Bosphorus stuff, I'm going to buy a ride (or two) and a set of hats from their line later in the year.
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  #205  
Old 03-30-2006, 12:03 PM
Stu_Strib
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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Originally Posted by finnhiggins
Nothing wrong with Bos, but the Hammer stuff is way, way at the washy end of even their range. The Turks and so forth are a lot more dry. Personally I quite like the Bosphorus stuff, I'm going to buy a ride (or two) and a set of hats from their line later in the year.
I was thinking of a Hammer for trashy and a Masters Turk (or just plain turk) for a bone dry one. My K const. now would be the happy medium washy-ish ride. I really would like a 22" Medium const. but man, that's a lot of dough (that's saying a lot given my propensity to not care about prices).

Also, I have a 20" Sabian HH Raw Dry ride that sounds like absolute doo-doo. It sounds like an anvil. I was considering riveting it, to salvage something out of that horrible impulse ebay buy.
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  #206  
Old 03-30-2006, 01:12 PM
OZjazzer
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Yes Finn I have nothing against Bos I was simply suggesting that maybe his so called 'inability' to play fast tempos was an impression brought about by his liking for cymbals with lots of wash that therefore lose definition at fast tempos. That's all.

And fly what I also said was 'By the wayI know Blade and Tain are fantastic but hey, even I get caught doing bad gigs. Love Blade with Redman by the way.' Now that is very clear.

And Gregg calling Kenny Washington a Max Roach clone - I'm interested in how you got to that conclusion or did I not understand you?

PS. I don't want to worry you Gregg but we have one more tiny thing in common - we both wish people would actually read the posts before they replied. I did say tiny.
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  #207  
Old 03-30-2006, 04:19 PM
Elvin4ever Elvin4ever is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
Well I'm learning, but I guess I'm just not agreeing. Branford's discography alone makes him susceptible to criticism in my book. He has a ton of dubious pop projects, bordering on the limits of "sell-out" in my book (although I'm not going there all the way, based on the other's opinions in here). Tonight Show, Mo'Better Blues, Sting, Harry Connick Jr., ...I thought this guy was a Jazz musician ;-)

To be fair, he has a ton of jazz projects and I see he played sax on my ever-recurring "Black Codes (from the Underground)"...man I'm glad I have that album..gives me something to fall back on, hehe!
I have to get to work, but wanted to drop a couple of thoughts on the posts that appeared as I slept.

Branford's Love Supreme is a ridiculous project. Again, if he's such a big shot, how about a piece where he demonstrates his own individuality...say Branford's Suite for instance...I know, just a hypothetical. When I heard the first ten seconds of it, I thought I was listening to a Coltrane remaster, until that squirrley tone of his arrived.

I used to like Branford just fine. Actually Stu, I liked the fact that he pursued projects other than jazz. I am not so fast to throw around this sellout label. But, I thought he ruined the Tonight Show. To me, he appeared as if he was too good to go along with the gags and routines. Moreover, his condescending demeanor made his audience uncomfortable. I compared the Branford approach to the high level of entertainment value dished out by Doc Severinson and his band. Now there were 18 of some of the best jazz musicians of their generation, in full awareness of what they were doing on all scores. Branford behaved as if his job would encompass a seminar on jazz awareness. There's nothing wrong with a little entertainment value. Heck, even the Miles aloofness was show business in its own way. What was most dissapointing was the fact that Branford is an engaging and funny guy. Too bad none of that translated to television.

Unfortunately as the years have passed, Branford chooses to drink more Wynton juice than he would have previously accepted. This is unfortunate.

Oz, I got your college graduate crack. But actually, the Woods comments regarded the sameness of college graduate performances based on an embrace of similar teaching methods...not their attitudes.

I like Dewey and Joshua Redman equally. I was reticent to embrace the son as well, until I forced myself to listen to several live performances at numerous venues. IMO, he passes muster. Dewey communicates from a different place, but communicates nonetheless.

The whole Bosphorus cymbal issue is interesting. I need to look into that.

Stu...again with the Black Codes? Geez..............................

I'm cool with these long posts. But, it is funny when someone appears to say, I couldn't be bothered to read the other pages, but here's what I think.

Forum attention spans are different I suppose.
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  #208  
Old 03-30-2006, 04:24 PM
Stu_Strib
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvin4ever
Stu...again with the Black Codes? Geez..............................

heh, that was tongue-in-cheek...a little self-depravation (stupid forums and no smileys).

Just pointing out that everytime someone brings up something new (new to me) that I've got it covered in my collection (unknowingly usually). I like this discussion a lot, even if you guys think I'm an ignorant noob.
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  #209  
Old 03-30-2006, 06:09 PM
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jazzgregg jazzgregg is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Well.
OZ:
No that's not the reason some of us don't like Hamilton since, you know the reasons-just because something else comes to light now, don't go second guessing everything. I just said that was something I didn't like, not a REASON. Face it, there are in fact other people who think Hamilton is jive. Guys like Hamilton can play fast but not CLEAN enough for us, actually. Both Renato and I studied with Ian Froman whose uptempo ride playing was crystal clear no matter the cymbal or the tempo, it was the technique. (Again, if you guys don;t know Fro, check him out, I think I made reccomendations earlier on the thread).

Do you actually think Hamilton is an 'elder statesman of Jazz'? No matter if you like him or don't, think he's the man or not, he's not on a Roy, Louie, Jack or Tootie level, no way. C'mon now, don't be making sh*t up.

This isn't personal against you, don't act like it is.

Ren was just stating Remo drums are crappy and no, nothing IS safe on this thread. Some Bos cymbals are really great though.

E4E is right about the Phil Woods comment, I've heard Phil explain it. Why the attempted personal insult, OZ? If you actually knew the situation at 'a music school', namely, the one we went to, you'd know that us modernists were a minority in the academic Jazz community. We went AGAINST the school, and occasionally, were shunned for it. I risked my ass my last jury because it was so important to me to play a duo with my buddy that I was prepared to accept a failing grade as long as I said what I had to say musically. Music schools don't like that attitude.

Are you serious about not hearing Kenny sounding like Max? What about generalizing and saying Kenny sound's like he lives in the 50's? Man, I'm surprised anyone could have issue with THAT, I can see the Hamilton stuff being more disagreeable.

E4E- I agree about the Brantford stuff- he used to be his own person, but yeah, Wynton passed the juice to him and keeps drinking it! AS I said, I've never heard his ALS and I still refuse to, but it is apparently, not as bad MUSICALLY as one might think. Oh, it's in bad TASTE alright though! lol

I've heard Josh a few times, but never felt the need to force myself to like him, just enough to know I didn't. To each his own. I'm certainly not going to get into a 'Josh is boring', 'No he isn't' thread=)


G
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  #210  
Old 03-30-2006, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

I own Branford's Love Supreme DVD and I actually like it- not so much Branford because I'm not a huge fan (although he's a very very good saxophone player) but more because of the band- Tain, Eric Revis (the bassplayer) and Joey Calderazzo on piano are great. Especially Joey, that guy has some beautiful lines. During that recording, I say to myself, "Come on Branford, just dig in man!" his stuff doesn't feel nearly as convicted as Coltrane's. The other guys sure are diggin' it though. The music swings very very hard and Tain is an alien.
In regards to Jeff Hamilton, now that I listen back, I realise that I don't like his uptempo that much. His medium swing is excellent though. I was just listening to The Girl in the Other Room by Diana Krall, and on the title track he plays a massively swinging medium three. It's really great. In fact, I might even transcribe eight bars of his time playing. I could learn something from it. However, I don't understand how ANY jazz drummer of any stripe could lay a diss on Elvin. Elvin's quite possibly the greatest drummer who ever lived. At least, you can make a good argument for it. When one of my old teachers (a fantastic be bop player) saw Trane in the 60's in London, he noticed Buddy Rich and Louis Bellson were in the club too. Garry (my teacher) knew Buddy fairly well (Garry was a ripping young Philly Joe esque player at this point) and Buddy was apparently freaking out over what Elvin was doing. So was Louis. If these two old school dudes could dig Elvin, Jeff Hamilton can dig Elvin. To me, it's not even a matter of opinion. If you don't dig Elvin, you either don't get Elvin, or you're wrong. I'm sorry if that comes off like there's a big swastika branded on my chest but quite simply he was an objectively incredible drummer who changed the way we think about the instrument in a significant fashion.
Regarding Josh Redman, he's a very good player too. I wasn't around when he hit the scene, but it seems to me that he was a little overblown as a player because of Daddy. After seeing Chris Potter and even some of the lesser well known Canadian guys play a lot recently, I've determined that he's a little overrated. Even someone like Mike Murley does more for me than Redman. Murley's not even well known outside of Canada, but he turns my crank more. That being said, I love his albums, they're groovy, he writes some very cool tunes, and plays very well. Just for sheer virtuosity and conviction, give me Chris Potter over Redman, Branford et al any day.
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  #211  
Old 03-30-2006, 08:09 PM
Renato Renato is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Oz -
hey bro let me reiterate as I often get too emotional about stuff to write it properly.

My bag with Hamilton's uptempos are his technique. The Hamilton rides actually aren't that washy relative to the Bosphorus line and I own a Hammer ride with rivets so I am informed on that. It's his technique that I have issues with. He is taking the easy way out. When you play uptempos you've got to accent the last note or otherwise it all dissapears. The same idea applies to double strokes. Any old timer or drumcorps cat will tell you that you must accent the second note of a double to be able to make them sound even. Obviously it isn't going to be louder - it just comes out sounding even like this RR-LL-RR-LL instead of Rr-Ll-Rr-Ll etc. Billy Ward talks about it on his great DVD Big Time. Check it out. Also Clayton Cameron talks about it on his brush video as well. I am sure there are more of them out there. Also John Riley really talks about it(we're back to the ride cymbal technique again) in his books. Especially Beyond Bop. You can't just drop the stick and then bounce it. It must be controlled with the fingers and then accent the final note like this RrR RrR - the middle note is more or less a bounce but its proximity to the first note gives it more weight. Ideally you want it to sound like RRR RRR RRR or LLL LLL(if you are left handed). This type of technique is what makes Miles Davis' landmark "Four and More" with the ridiculously talented Tony Williams(age 17-18)unbelieveable. Here he is just a kid and his playing is so dialed in - he is Killing those uptempos and in the fashion of Max Roach(his biggest hero). That is what is being referred to here. Hamilton espoused a faulty technique at the clinic I went to, and in my opinion that is wrong. Its jive. Does that make Hamilton a bad guy. no. Near as I can tell he is a great guy. I like his cymbals(I even have a Bosphorus cymbals sticker on my bumper. Its just this technique issue for me. I don't care what cymbals you use - mushy ride technique is no excuse. Joey Baron uses a 16" ride and sounds good(granted duct tape is his favorite cymbal altering technique). Bill Stewart is a superstar at this....I talked with him about all the stick sound in his ride cymbal technique at the regatta bar once when he was there playing with Larry Goldings' trio. He said while he was at William Patterson he had a very thin old K and had to alter his technique to get more definition so he developed his cupping technique to pull more stick sound out. It can be done. I do it by extendig my thumb past my fulcrum and presto - more stick - try it. That is my thing about uptempos. I'll make a short list of cats who have their(or had)uptempos happening:
Max Roach, Ian Froman, Tony Williams, Gregg Brennan, Art Blakey, Jimmy Cobb, Tootie Heath, Art Taylor, Kenny Clark, Daniel Humair, Jon Christensen, Brian Blade, Tain, Clarence Penn, Kendrick Scott, Terreon Gully, Billy Ward, STeve SMith, Weckl(yes we may not all dig his style but his technique is in place on uptempos), Kenny Washington, Jack Dejohnette, Lenny White, Elvin Jones, Edgar Bateman, Philly Joe Jones, Mel Lewis, Stan Levey, ROY HAYNES, Paul Motian(although he currently tries to play with out technique), Chad Anderson, Billy Drummond, Cindy Blckman, Rashied Ali, Paal Nilssen-Love, Paolo Vinaccia, Ari Hoenig, Jimmy Cobb, Nasheet Waits, Matt Wilson - I am forgetting many many many - but the technique is THE way of doing things.

Now his brush playing is great. I have to give credit where credit is due.

His drum choice - questionable. aren't they paper drums?

OKay - as far as the Elvin thing goes...you don't have to like Elvin. No accounting for taste in this world - some people like Cottage Cheese(As Gallagher so eloquently put it). blech! But I not complaining that he doesn't like Elvin. He personally attacked Elvin. He could have said he didn't dig his sound aesthetically. But no - he bashed Elvin's technique. The cat destroyed bounderies with Coltrane and is on numerous influential albums - his technique is above reproach. Especially considering Hamilton's uptempos. And don't think to play the brush card on me - Elvin was a master at playing brushes - even when he was young - Stu - check this one out - a Tommy Flanagan recording from Scandinavia on Elvin's first tour. It's '57in Stockhom and he plays on a trio reocrding with Tommy Flanagan and Wilbur Little. Here is the crux....Elvin plays only brushes on the whole recording. Don't forget Elvin's hero was Denzil Best(who played with Monk in Harlem at Minton's Playhouse during the birth of Bebop and co-wrote several of Thelonious Monk's biggest tunes with him like "Straight No Chaser" and "Bemsha Swing" and he was considered a master brush player and very influential on Elvin and Max andMany others...oh Elvin has also cited another brush monster...Spencer O'neil as well)Elvin could play brushes, and nobody can play them like he does. I would stare at his hands while he played brushes and try to figure out how his sound was working because he sort of did the opposite of every other brush player I've seen - he mashed the brushes into the head instead of riding lightly on top and yet his sound was light, delicate and hip. Oh while I'm on the topic - some have accused Elvin of not having traditional stuff in place in his playing...namely feathering the bassdrum - which is a Hamilton favorite to harp on - not on Elvin but in general ....and he's right....you should be able to feather(playing the bass very lightly on quarter notes while playing time with sticks or brushes)the bassdrum. Anyway - when I first saw Elvin at the Regatta bar in '97(I had seen him play at the Moscow Jazz Festival in the big band(yes Elvin can play big band too - so forget about that card too)but I first saw him up close in the Regatta Bar and was shocked to see him feather throughout the night. So modern and yet all the trad stuff is in place. Anyway - bagging on Elvin's technique is inconceiveable. I wish Hamilton would explain that one for me as its possible he was misquoted as journalists do from time to time to sensationalize.

The elderstatesmen thing - he's not there yet - he needs to get his uptempos down first!


Marsalis...well I own the Brandford "A Love Supreme" dvd...it was a present. Now bear in mind that "A Love Supreme" was my first jazz cd that I purchased for myself(along with Bill Evan's "Explorations" and Miles Davis' "Nefertiti" on my 22nd birthday...up until then I was into Metal and Rock which reminds me to make a comment about kids and jazz...which I will down below)so that recording is very important to me. Everytime I listen to it it is a very moving experience for me. I was little put off(not nearly as much as hearing about Kenny G over dubbing on Pops!)by them covering the whole thing. One tune wouldn't have been as bad like when Kenny Garrett did it on "Pursuance: The Music OF John Coltrane"...which is an amazing record with Brian Blade KILLING!!! and they did "Pursuance" on that record which is the third movement of the suite Coltrane wrote(if you are really interested in this topic buy Ashley Kahn's "A Love Supreme" book and get the deluxe edition of the cd with the alternate takes with Archie Shepp on the(yes Coltrane had toyed with doing it as a quintet...too bad Eric Dolphy had already passed on - he would have been perfect!)alternate takes...its fascinating.)and Garrett's version was cool. But to do the whole thing? Well when I saw it - I have to admit it was good. and Tain has reasserted himself as a great drummer. He plays great.

But for Wynton to do it.....this guy is all agenda...Jazzgregg is right - he was a leader in the "Trane apostasized from the church of good jazz after "Giant Steps"" and to now do "A Love Supreme" why?? To capitalize on it. Where is Bob Moses - he would have somehting to say about this!!!!! Yeah - Wynton is a strange guy - on the one hand so cool - and on the other...what the *^%&^%? I stand by what I said earlier...he would be way hipper if he'd SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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  #212  
Old 03-30-2006, 08:10 PM
Renato Renato is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

okay Ozman - on the school thing....as far as Phil Woods goes...well that cat has an ax to grind...I mean he is still mad because no one gives him credit for "inventing" the nordic jazz scene in the late 60's...I mean why not...after all there is no way Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Dexter Gordon, Johnny Griffin, Bill Evans, Steve Kuhn and numerous others who went there way before he did could have possibly influenced it at all. And anyway he studied at the Manhattan School Of Music for a semester and several at Julliard. not to mention teaching and doing clinics for these "horrible music school graduates"....if he hates them or dislikes them or finds fault in them...he seems to have no problem taking their money to teach them. A bit of a paradox.

The music school thing...yeah as a graduate of Berklee I can say what Jazzgregg said...it's no friggin' picnic. I had one teacher who will remain unnamed - but every week in his drum lab it was "bash Renato time" because I wanted to have my own sound. I mean it is a political stuggle as well. Yeah when the Marsalis's were there they added to it.....Wynton shot his mouth off about Racism at the school(the same one that paid him to be there)and Delfeayo was a big know-it-all - people are still recounting stories of him exploding and walking out of class if anyone said anything about his stuff...because you know after all he was perfect and didn't need Berklee...wait - then why did he go???? I will say this though - Berklee was rough...it was a pressure cooker...I thought I was gonna have a heart attack trying to get my senior recital ready and nearly did when it turned out bad....I was a jazz composition student and my compositions were filled with many things besides the Duke and GIl Evans style big band arranging I had learned. namely serialism, extended techniques, alternative instrumentation, and various other things in an effort to capture the sounds on my head. I didn't get any sleep for 5 years. Boston is tough - if I had stayed at home and gone to my local school it would have been easier as I wouldn't have had New York pros kicking me in the butt. But It was worth it. There is a difference in my opinion. But the schcool will only work if the student wants to pay the price. Now many bash berklee but here is a short list of current people who went there who are doing well...John Mayer(yeah he was there while I was there but his current opinions and stories about his Berklee days don't ring true with what really went down, Alf Clausen, the guy who wrote the Lord Of the Rings music...I forget his name, Kurt Rosenwinkle, Ben Perowski, Jamey Haddad, Kenny Werner, Ian Froman, Kendrick Scott, Brandford, Wynton, Jason, Delfeayo(all but Ellis jr. who had the sense to go to medical school at John Hopkins and was there with the rhythm guitarist in my band(yeah our rhythm guy is obsessed with Freddie Green and a brain doctor)...the stories he tells about the marsalis clan kill me!!!,Jim Black, Chris Speed, Skuli Sverrison, Joey Baron, John Scofield, Teri Lyne Carrington, Cindy Blackman, Dan Reiser, Abe Laboriel jr., Vinnie Colauta, Bill Frisell, and ofcourse Tain Watts. I am forgetting tons..but the proof is in the pudding as they say. It may not be for everyone but I loved it...I studied with Ian Froman, Jamey Haddad, Ken Pullig and SKip Hadden and I learned so much from these guys. It was amazing.

okay Kids and Jazz...I say the watered down crap is the worst way to present jazz to kids. Why? Most of them listen to rap or rock(or any of the multitude of subgenres)and they really can smell a watered down version of something a mile away. I mean when I was a teenager my jazz teachers were always telling me to listen to the Yellowjackets, Chick Corea's Acoustik and Elektric bands, and various other disco whitepants quiche rock. WHy didn't they say "hey dig this Miles Davis cat, he was heavy?" I would have responded to the real deal. I know because when I finally heard it - it was immediate - no going back. I felt as if a whole world of music was hidden from me by people who should have known better. I also know it is true with my own students - I teach 30-50 students and have been at it for a while now and everytime one of them hears me play certain stuff and asks "where did you get that?" I smile and recommend a few things...and without exception they all comeback wide eyed and ready to hit it. Here is how it usually goes down...I play some lick I copped and morphed into my own thing(or tried to cop or tried to morph)and they say "what's That"...I tell them well go get the Miles Davis record "Miles Smiles"(or "Nefertiti") and then they come back and say they are ready to learn jazz. Now many say starting with Tony is all wrong. You need to examine the early guys. I wholeheartedly agree but it seems to me that kids who dig aggressive music need to hear aggressive jazz for that world to open up to them. I have a 100% success rate. Once these kids open their minds Bill Evans and Ahmad Jamal are cool too. So no, I think watering it down with cheesy Kenny G crap is wrong, as is thinking they must hear bebop or big band first. Obviously that is what they will have to learn first but getting their minds open is tough and Miles and Trane are perfect for that.

Okay rant over....sorry its so long. enjoy
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  #213  
Old 03-30-2006, 09:04 PM
Drad-dog
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzgregg
Bos cymbals, while being as washy as an incredibly washy thing are no damn excuse for Hamilton's TECHNIQUE to playing fast! He'd sound like mush on a kitchen table with that approach.

Okay, jazzgregg. I have to call you out on this. Renato too. If you don't like Hamilton's style, so be it. There IS no accounting for taste. Calling him out for being a copycat: a legitimate critisizm. But you guys trash talking his technique sounds a little like sour grapes. What makes you better judges of his technique than Ray Brown, Woody Herman or Monty Alexander? (Notice I left out Krall). Really- he's good enough for those guys but not for you? Respectfully, you guys harping on his technique sounds petty. Don't like it? Nothing to argue about there. Saying "he needs to get his uptempos down"- that's trash talk from even younger statesman than he is.

Also, I don't have that issue of Modern Drummer with me either, but I read the article and did not perceive his comments as a slight to Elvin. I thought he meant that learning to appreciate Elvin was a difficult step in his developement. That's not slighting Elvin at all.
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  #214  
Old 03-30-2006, 09:30 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drad-dog
Okay, jazzgregg. I have to call you out on this. Renato too. If you don't like Hamilton's style, so be it. There IS no accounting for taste. Calling him out for being a copycat: a legitimate critisizm. But you guys trash talking his technique sounds a little like sour grapes. What makes you better judges of his technique than Ray Brown, Woody Herman or Monty Alexander? (Notice I left out Krall). Really- he's good enough for those guys but not for you? Respectfully, you guys harping on his technique sounds petty. Don't like it? Nothing to argue about there. Saying "he needs to get his uptempos down"- that's trash talk from even younger statesman than he is.

Also, I don't have that issue of Modern Drummer with me either, but I read the article and did not perceive his comments as a slight to Elvin. I thought he meant that learning to appreciate Elvin was a difficult step in his developement. That's not slighting Elvin at all.
I have to go teach, but I do want to quickly clarify this. When I said 'technique' I don't mean it in a drummer way, I mean as in 'approach', his 'way' of playing uptempos. As in, I have this 'technique' to making ravioli does not mean I have ravioli-making chops. I was in no way criticizing chops, talking about chops and THAT kind of technique is silly (as if that's a surprise coming from me). Sorry for the confusion.
Cool?

G
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Old 03-30-2006, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Now his brush playing is great. I have to give credit where credit is due.
I like when he uses sticks. His drum solo ...I get high from it.
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Old 03-30-2006, 11:22 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Awesome thread, especially for someone who is just getting into jazz, like me.

Some additional modern jazz drummer recommendations for Stu Strib - how about Luther Grey? His work with guitarist Joe Morris and double bassist Timo Shanko on their album 'Age of Everything' is beautiful.

Jazzgregg's recommendations (Susie Ibarra, Tom Rainey, Eric Echampard etc.) are wicked, too.
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Old 03-30-2006, 11:36 PM
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Are we having fun? I am. First, the Phil Woods thing was a my pathetic attempt at humour after all you two did keep dropping Berklee on us. No offence intended.

Branford's DVD? Seeems the jury is out on that. I find it somehow unpleasanty artificial - I guess it must be me.

Fast cymbal technique? Ever since I heard Ron Jefferson swing his bum off with Les McCann in the 60's using straight fours on the ride I've never bothered (with the da ding bit) at really fast tempos. I admit I'm a definition freak, I don't like over mushy cymbals at all. By the way, the guys I play with love the way you can really lift a band doing that four thing. But remember I am not only ancient, I picked up all my (limited) drumming knowledge on the gig or simply by listening and talking. I have however been lucky to see many of the jazz legends when they were at the top of their game. As I said before, my view of some of the people we're discussing comes from a very different direction to you guys. At your age I would have given both my arms to have been able to do the Berklee thing but alas .... (reaches for Kleenex).

Anyway I love this discussion but I really think someone should make an attempt to nail down the MD Hamilton/Elvin comment because as it stands the so-called damning quote is muddled at best. Obviously nobody here actually bought the entire MD library on CD - pity.

Jazgregg, you didn't even mention my bit on Gretsch players earlier. I guess in time I'll get over it.

Renato I still believe listeners usually come to jazz by way of commercial jazz not hardcore. And can we please stop using Kenny G as an example he's truly awful, lets go back to Krall, Cullum, Monheit, Cinotti etc.
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Old 03-31-2006, 12:09 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzgregg
I have to go teach, but I do want to quickly clarify this. When I said 'technique' I don't mean it in a drummer way, I mean as in 'approach', his 'way' of playing uptempos. As in, I have this 'technique' to making ravioli does not mean I have ravioli-making chops. I was in no way criticizing chops, talking about chops and THAT kind of technique is silly (as if that's a surprise coming from me). Sorry for the confusion.
Cool?

G
Very cool. Sorry I didn't read you right!

Drad
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Old 03-31-2006, 12:36 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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Originally Posted by OZjazzer
Renato I still believe listeners usually come to jazz by way of commercial jazz not hardcore.
Uniquely enough (at least in the United States and Canada) over 80% of the jazz listening public arrives via participation or listenership of a school ensemble. A 1997 (I think) study insisted that the overwhelming majority of school big band participants remain at least interested in jazz throughout their lives... a percentage that increases exponentially if participation extends anywhere from the senior year of high school through college graduation.

Of far greater significance were the associates of school performers who attended jazz events where the primary subject created at least a version of jazz. Said associates developed enough of an increased awareness to classify jazz as one of their three desired musical genres. In instances involving these friends, relatives and colleagues, said awareness was elevated as much as three fold. These are very significant numbers, and from an anecdotal perspective, I find them probably in the ballpark.

Although many of these often (very) young North Americans participate in school ensembles with less than qualitive repertoire (TV themes, pop adaptations etc), a sizable number of 15 year olds experience the music of Woody Herman and Basie as their entrance into jazz...not a bad beginning at all.

I think others forget that even in these marching band obsessed times, North American schools are homes to over a quarter million jazz ensembles. I am certain that many in other locales cannot fathom such numbers.
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Old 03-31-2006, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

OZJazzer....

I'm with you on the quarter notes on the ride thing.... It really is great for locking in with the bass -- I don't hear too many guys playing like that (Gadd does it a lot, of course).....One guy that I think everyone needs to hear for this type of playing is Steve Williams (Shirley Horn's drummer) -- just an incredibly tasty player, who plays a medium swing groove as well as anyone. He's based out of Seattle -- check him out.
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Old 03-31-2006, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

OZJazzer....

I actually do own the MD archive DVD....If someone can tell me the year and issue of the infamous Hamilton interview I'd love to check it out and give you guys an exact quote.

My gut reaction to the issue is that Hamilton is probably saying that he didn't get Elvin (thus, we don't here much of a Jones influence in Jeff's playing).

Not really a criticism of Jones; kind of like when some sax players say they dig Coltrane or Michael Brecker, but that they just don't always "hear" what those guys are doing and thus their influence doesn't come through in their playing the same way that, say, Bird's does.
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Old 03-31-2006, 12:47 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

FYI

I just got "Thad Jones and Mel Lewis - Live at the Village Vanguard" recorded 1967. Holy Sheet! What a band. Great charts too. Mel sounds incredible. Add it to your collection folks.

P.S. I still dig Jeff Hamilton ;)
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Old 03-31-2006, 03:59 AM
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Oh fast riding... I actually like two drummers the most at that.

Billy Higgins comes on top for me... because his technique, although not the cleanest, had this tension going... all notes somewhat close dynamically, but not quite as to sound dead even, yet somehow grooving as be balanced slight tempo shifts musically with those dynamic shifts... just beautiful, so evocative... and with a BIG sound, almost on the verge of opening up... something that him an Elvin seemed to be as most naturally gifted to do.

Second is Peter Erskine, who I like for the exact opposite reason, the most incredibly precise and perfect fast riding... and somehow, the SOFTEST he goes, the CLEANER and FASTER he seems to go too... unvelievable, suchg tight articulation going on WHILE playing around, I'll have to really focus all my attention on the RIDE ALONE, just to come anywhere near, but never in a million years... I saw him once and actually being there to hear it, that's when you go "that man's that cymbal is moving up and down the exact number of milimeters on every stroke"... ha, ha, ha

jack DeJohnette is a mix of the two.
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Old 03-31-2006, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T.L.
OZJazzer....

I actually do own the MD archive DVD....If someone can tell me the year and issue of the infamous Hamilton interview I'd love to check it out and give you guys an exact quote.

My gut reaction to the issue is that Hamilton is probably saying that he didn't get Elvin (thus, we don't here much of a Jones influence in Jeff's playing).

Not really a criticism of Jones; kind of like when some sax players say they dig Coltrane or Michael Brecker, but that they just don't always "hear" what those guys are doing and thus their influence doesn't come through in their playing the same way that, say, Bird's does.
Thanks for that T.L. Come on guys give the man a hint about the when the Hamilton MD article appeared so we can all make up our own minds get some sleep.
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Old 03-31-2006, 05:55 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Ok, so we're still going then.
OZ, I went out of my way to NOT mention Berklee until Renato outed me (thanks alot, buddy=).
If you don't like mushy cymbals and are a definition freak, what's with the pro Hamilton approach? I recognize that you know you're stuff, but are not, as you said, coming form the same place as I am.
As for the MD/Hamilton comment, I don't really care, it's not the crux of my view at all, nor does it have any effect whatsoever on what I've been saying. I just think it's funny and not at all surprising that he'd say that kind of crap.

Which part on the Gretsch drums thing? I think I said something about something about it, but maybe I forgot to say what I thought (I'm sure I had an opinion). On that note, how about the Kenny clone issue, the Mel being a distincly innovative and groundbreaking drummer and the 'Blues for Steph'(I feel like I know her now)/'Groove Merchant' Hamilton cloning?=)


For my experience, E4E is closer to the mark when it comes to introductions to Jazz. People that listen to pulp like all those you mentioned, OZ will continue to do so, sadly. Nobody listend to Monheit's first CD and went' Wow- I need to hear more from this BACKING band of Kenny Barron, Ron Carter' etc...lol

T.L- a bit of a correction on what you said, I think=). You said there isn't much Elvin in Hamilton's playing. I think maybe what you meant to say was that Hamilton acts like Elvin never existed, no?

JordanZ- Glad you picked up that Thad/Mel album! Hoooray!!! I'm happy for you and that band is SCARY. Thads arrangements, very tight band, swing their asses off and then some. ALL of their stuff together is is good. There have been some "re-issues" on the crappy 'Laserlight' label that, while having poor sound quality, offer up Thad and Mel for a low, low price!

Guillermo, I agree with Higgins and I will say that Erskine is very precise in his uptempo ride playing. Jack is great at everything, in case anyone was wondering. I'll mention someone no one has heard, guarenteed (if you do and can prove it, I will actually give you a prize), Tony Rabeson. He's an uptempo master from Madagascar (living in France) and just a beautiful, deep player. His work with Henri Texier is some of my favorite by any musician ever. By the way, thanks so much for the props, Ren, I got my uptempo stuff mosty from Rabeson.

There are a number of things on this thread that now just fly by without comment! I want everyone to be accountable for everything they say, not just me, dammit-lol! OZ, please let me know what the Gretsch thing was about, PM or repost or whatever, I really would like to answer it.

Gregg
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Old 03-31-2006, 08:31 AM
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Gregg. Not that it matters but I did say I'm 'not a big Hamilton fan' early in the piece I just thought he didn't deserve being blamed for everything from the black plague to shop lifting at Mel's place. I have never liked his cymbal sound but obviously he does and I guess they sell a lot of Bos 'Jeff Hamiltons' on the strength of it. His big band playing is too complicated fo me as well, so I'm really not a fan but I certainly don't dislike him either. Blues for Steph is nothing more than a bit of good clean fun with an obvious groove.
When I think about it there are so many fine drummers each covering there own patch of jazz turf and here we are discussing Jeff Hamilton! There are so many new guys that I often get confused and run back to my absolute favourites, Higgins, Philly, Fournier, Cobb, early Tony, Mel, Thigpen, Haynes, Alan Dawson, Colin Bailey, Louis Hayes, Grady Tate and JD. I am not into showoff drummers at all therefore I have never liked Rich (yes Rich fans I know he's the greatest XYZ that ever lived ... etc etc ) or the current crop of spead freaks Weckl, Lang etc. Drum solos bore me to tears. Never listen to them and never play them. Always thought jazz drummers were there to support the band not dominate it. Enough already.

I was going to suggest a track to Stu that sums up just about everything I like about jazz in the hope that it inspires him as it does me. The track is 'All of you' by the Hancock/Williams/Carter/Coleman version of the Miles Davis quintet but it's NOT the one off 'Four and More' it's from the lesser known 'Miles Davis in Europe' recorded live at Antibe.

Davis had been playing this song for years with the Philly/Garland/Coltrane and his sparse muted statement of the tune owes much to Ahmad Jamal. This version has the teenage Tony Williams at his frightening best, pushing, prodding and almost daring everyone to go that bit further. The groove near the end of Hancock's solo with Williams hitting a simple one in the bar accent as Carter dives down low is unforgettable. Stu you can probably find this single track in iTunes. It has my personal money back enjoyment guarantee.

Gregg, the Gretsch thing was simply this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OZjazzer
Yes the Gretsch thing is interesting. Back in the early 60's when I was would wait for my Downbeat fix every month the Gretsch ads created a lot of interest, because in Australia, there was very little choice, it was Gretsch or Ludwig with the odd Slingerland and Leedy thrown in.

Gretsch had all the bop players as I recall, Blakey, Chico Hamilton, Connie Kay, Max Roach, Philly Joe Jones, Jimmy Cobb, Art Taylor, Kenny Clarke. Mel certainly played Gretsch and I think Jake Hanna (then with Herman) did as well. Not sure about Stan Levey. Rich was Slingerland (not that I cared, I was never a fan) and from memory a lot of the West Coast guys like Shelley played Leedy.
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Old 03-31-2006, 10:13 AM
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Oz -- the tune isn't on iTunes, but amazon.com has the whole album (they have all three of the Europe live albums, their reviewer had the Antibe one as the weakest of the three)

As for Jazz in schools...

I think many of the kids get started in watered down jazz because of the quality of instructor they have. Perhaps the director likes Yellowjackets and Four-Play and Spyro Gyra? I think it is a shame that even when the instructor is more hard core jazz, they still pull out the same non-swingin' standards. Just last night at a drum clinic, the local British Grammar School kids played about 5 tunes, only 2 of which swung. They played the ubiquitous Weather Report (which is odd, since I played that in high school jazz band 20 years ago, I thought maybe kids nowdays would have a new non-swing standard).

I WISH more band directors would push more Miles and Coltrane and, well, just standards in general. I remember one year at Jazz competition at States (Oregon, mid 80s) we were the only band that played all swing tunes (well, and a bossa). The other lesser developed music programs were playing tunes like "Watermelon Man", "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy", "Theme from Rocky" and "Little Shop of Horrors". The judges started sounding like broken records telling the other bands they needed to do more swing tunes. Unfortunately, most band directors took that criticism as meaning to add a Basie tune or something similar (not that that is bad, but it still leaves out bop and hard bop, which is what I think the judges would like to have heard).

Which brings up another thesis on why the kids are 'eased' into jazz...Jazz simply isn't easy to play correctly, especially with little to no experience, like most these kids have. I think a lot of the pop-jazz stuff (cullum, buble, et.al) has a lot of 2 & 4 backbeat, so that is an easy transition for the kids.

Also, as drummers, kids get the short end of the stick a lot. Last night, the two kids were decent drummers but both of them stomped the bass on all 4 beats, and neither of them knew how to play a bossa with a proper clave. I wish we had time to go talk to them and give them simple feedback, such as "don't stomp the bass drum, feather it..it is ok not to even play the bass drum" and "your samba/bossa's need to have a steady 16th/8th pattern on the bass drum, and you should use a simple 2:3 or 3:2 clave". Their band director should be doing these things, but he probably isn't a drummer, and that is a shame to the kids.

Personally, had I finished my Music Ed degree, I would transition kids into jazz with hard bop. It is pretty much the amalgamation of soul/blues/funk/r&b (at that time) into a very cool and swung feel! I think this is why I like it so much today. It isn't off-putting in its technicality either, and it isn't as disconnected to the untrained ear.
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Old 03-31-2006, 01:38 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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Originally Posted by OZjazzer
Drum solos bore me to tears. Never listen to them and never play them.
Oh thank god, I thought I was alone.

I hate drum soloing. As far as I'm concerned if you took every good drum solo ever and put them together you'd have a two-and-a-half-minute piece of acceptable music. Versus hour after hour of tedium, flailing, thrashing and... nothing.

If I wanted to solo incessantly I'd have stuck with guitar... That's one of the things I really like about drums - it makes the reality that music is better when people interact well plain as day.
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Old 03-31-2006, 04:00 PM
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  #229  
Old 03-31-2006, 05:11 PM
Elvin4ever Elvin4ever is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
As for Jazz in schools...

I think many of the kids get started in watered down jazz because of the quality of instructor they have. Perhaps the director likes Yellowjackets and Four-Play and Spyro Gyra? I think it is a shame that even when the instructor is more hard core jazz, they still pull out the same non-swingin' standards.

Unfortunately, most band directors took that criticism as meaning to add a Basie tune or something similar (not that that is bad, but it still leaves out bop and hard bop, which is what I think the judges would like to have heard).

Which brings up another thesis on why the kids are 'eased' into jazz...Jazz simply isn't easy to play correctly, especially with little to no experience, like most these kids have. I think a lot of the pop-jazz stuff (cullum, buble, et.al) has a lot of 2 & 4 backbeat, so that is an easy transition for the kids.

Personally, had I finished my Music Ed degree, I would transition kids into jazz with hard bop. It is pretty much the amalgamation of soul/blues/funk/r&b (at that time) into a very cool and swung feel! I think this is why I like it so much today. It isn't off-putting in its technicality either, and it isn't as disconnected to the untrained ear.
Many band directors who once demonstrated the time and the dedication to dig in and present quality offerings are now tied down to their all consuming marching band programs. In fact, many American school principals and boards require their band programs to attend marching competitions they are not prepared for, and/or cannot afford. This requires directors to assemble large band parent organizations to raise tremendous sums of money. Said parents then unfortunately acquire stakes in the program's direction, that (more often than not) do not include jazz. Jazz time then falls between the cracks...offered as a when I have time ensemble, with the substantially watered down music you describe. This is unfortunate, due to the possible validity of the music preference research already discussed.

Actually the initial implementation of Basie is a decent idea, and many practical/ historical lessons are absorbed. But yes, these charts are not intended as an ends, but often do end up that way.

The hard bop entry concept is a solid premise and is used in many quality programs for the reasons you describe.
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Old 03-31-2006, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OZjazzer
Yes the Gretsch thing is interesting. Back in the early 60's when I was would wait for my Downbeat fix every month the Gretsch ads created a lot of interest, because in Australia, there was very little choice, it was Gretsch or Ludwig with the odd Slingerland and Leedy thrown in.

Gretsch had all the bop players as I recall, Blakey, Chico Hamilton, Connie Kay, Max Roach, Philly Joe Jones, Jimmy Cobb, Art Taylor, Kenny Clarke. Mel certainly played Gretsch and I think Jake Hanna (then with Herman) did as well. Not sure about Stan Levey. Rich was Slingerland (not that I cared, I was never a fan) and from memory a lot of the West Coast guys like Shelley played Leedy.


Shelly played Grestch for a bit early in his career, so did Jake. Levey didn't but a couple of older swing cats did including Don Lamond, Dave Tough and Louie Bellson (for a while).

Why have people immediately jumped to the aid of Hamilton (even people who aren't really fans) while lukewarmly objecting to my opinions on Nash and ignoring what I said about Kenny? Seriously, if you all already agree, great, less typing for me....

Just curious,
G

Last edited by jazzgregg; 03-31-2006 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 03-31-2006, 08:31 PM
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In fact, many American school principals and boards require their band programs to attend marching competitions they are not prepared for, and/or cannot afford. This requires directors to assemble large band parent organizations to raise tremendous sums of money.
It was my experience that Marching Band was during football season, and Jazz Band was the rest of the year (with the 'pep' band doubling as the jazz band for basketball season). I went to a really good arts school though, so I'm sure many schools focus all on marching and that is all they have time for like you said.
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Old 03-31-2006, 08:33 PM
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I need some help with a good standard Mingus record recommendation. I picked up "The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady". I guess I'm looking for something a little more straightforward? This is an odd cd for sure. Maybe it will grow on me?

Stu
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Old 03-31-2006, 08:58 PM
Elvin4ever Elvin4ever is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
It was my experience that Marching Band was during football season, and Jazz Band was the rest of the year (with the 'pep' band doubling as the jazz band for basketball season). I went to a really good arts school though, so I'm sure many schools focus all on marching and that is all they have time for like you said.
These days, marching season never entirely goes away, even in diversified programs. Two weeks after the last fall competition is the start of winter guard, and many drumlines begin working on the fall show as early as April and rehearse diligently throughout the summer, while continuing to work on concert band music and solo/ensemble. Then there is freshman band camp, followed by band camp. Fall show planning often begins a month or so after the last fall marching competition. These days, many programs attend from four to seven of these events, while continuing other activities. Also, at some time, the Veterans's Day, Christmas Concert and the Graduation Ceremony is squeezed in.

Fundraising for the fall show begins early since an award winning show (the kind that brings in the money for the following season's show) can cost upwards of $25,000 to $50,000. These are no longer considered exhorbitant amounts, and many shows cost far more.

This prompts band directors to mange their time more like CEOs of small corporations.

Twenty years ago, most of these programs would have added into the curriculum a jazz ensemble that met every day, during normal classroom hours. In today's climate, this is seldom possible considering the aforementioned time constraints.

This is why school jazz ensembles are of a lower quality than in the previous era. Yet, they remain significant because of their influence on music preferences in later years.

Yes, you are correct. You were very fortunate to attend a school with a different agenda, and said agenda is quite rare these days.
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Old 03-31-2006, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Elvin4ever
Twenty years ago, most of these programs would have added into the curriculum a jazz ensemble that met every day, during normal classroom hours.


Yes, you are correct. You were very fortunate to attend a school with a different agenda, and said agenda is quite rare these days.
Interestingly enough, I was in school 18 years ago! We had what we called "Zero" period. Basically it was an elective to come in one hour before normal school started. It was an extra hour of school for those wanting to be in the Jazz band. And we had three full ensembles, it was that popular! It isn't easy getting kids to go to school at 7 am, that's for sure!

I went home recently and talked to a friend of mine who now runs the school (as both of our band directors retired recently). They are still doing the zero-period thing, but it doesn't have as much clout as it used to. Chalk it up to MTV generation or whatever...slackers!

heh.
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Old 03-31-2006, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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I need some help with a good standard Mingus record recommendation. I picked up "The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady". I guess I'm looking for something a little more straightforward? This is an odd cd for sure. Maybe it will grow on me?
The album, "Mingus Ah Um" remastered on Columbia, is a classic and a must-have for any decent jazz collection. Worth getting for "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" alone. One of my favorite songs is "Fables of Faubus" which has an interesting political story behind it's genesis.

Also like Mingus as a sideman on Ellington's trio effort, "Money Jungle", (with Max Roach) - another classic and a hard swingin' session. I never tire of this record and whenever I put it on I'm automatically compelled to listen to all of it.
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  #236  
Old 03-31-2006, 10:37 PM
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Jazz Gregg I HAVE heard him believe it or not... a Henri Texier recording with Sebastien Texier what I didn't know is that the guy was from Madagascar... Has he played also with Louis Sclavis?... Ib guess not under the name CARNET DES ROUTES...
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Old 03-31-2006, 11:19 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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Originally Posted by Guillermo
Jazz Gregg I HAVE heard him believe it or not... a Henri Texier recording with Sebastien Texier what I didn't know is that the guy was from Madagascar... Has he played also with Louis Sclavis?... Ib guess not under the name CARNET DES ROUTES...
Yeah that's the guy! What album did you hear, the trio one? Tony never played with Sclavis other than in Texier's group. The Carnet Des Routes is Texier, Sclavis and Aldo Romano (all 3 brilliant, all 3 albums by the trio- brilliant).
Tony is from a famous musical Madagascan family, Jeanot his mom, Dedé his uncle. He has his own thing now 'Malagasy Trio' which is great too. He's one of the most under-rated and sadly unkown musicians, I think. Texier's 'Mosaic Man' is a pinnacle of European Jazz (and the rest of his albums are IMO, equally brilliant). I'm so glad at least one person knows him!

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Old 04-01-2006, 01:26 AM
OZjazzer
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Good to be reminded of 'Mingus Ah Um', great album. That brings up one of the real unsung heroes, Dannie Richmond. I love the quote from his bio on Drummerworld.

"He took up the drums in 1955, and six months later joined Charles Mingus when he proved that he could play at very fast tempos. During Mingus' off periods, Richmond freelanced with Chet Baker, the group Mark-Almond, Joe Cocker, and even Elton John."

If he did that in 6 months it makes many of us look pretty slow (it took me 9 months). He played tenor before he switched, maybe that's the trick. Great drummer, is he still around?

Stu don't give up on the Davis 'All of you'. There's only one with that particular personel - Davi/Coleman/Carter/Williams/Hancock recorded at Antibe. Don't settle for anything less.
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  #239  
Old 04-01-2006, 02:04 AM
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mattsmith mattsmith is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OZjazzer
Good to be reminded of 'Mingus Ah Um', great album. That brings up one of the real unsung heroes, Dannie Richmond. I love the quote from his bio on Drummerworld.

"He took up the drums in 1955, and six months later joined Charles Mingus when he proved that he could play at very fast tempos. During Mingus' off periods, Richmond freelanced with Chet Baker, the group Mark-Almond, Joe Cocker, and even Elton John."

If he did that in 6 months it makes many of us look pretty slow (it took me 9 months). He played tenor before he switched, maybe that's the trick. Great drummer, is he still around?

Stu don't give up on the Davis 'All of you'. There's only one with that particular personel - Davi/Coleman/Carter/Williams/Hancock recorded at Antibe. Don't settle for anything less.
Mingus Ah Um is a great record. Dannie Richmond died in like 1988. He was from my home state of North Carolina. He used to play alot there because his wife was like a school principal in Greensboro. I guess he is sure the best example in jazz of a guy who could play great without alot of chops and be on a really hard gig. I think his playing the saxophone helped alot too.
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Old 04-01-2006, 02:38 AM
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Guillermo Guillermo is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

I have a Carnet Des Routes album... Suite Africaine... and yes, Romano is very good... another drummer that reminds me of Christensen... the thing I heard live of that other trio was, I believe one of those obscure catalog live recordings... simply called (all three names), and the place live... not a studio production... I don't remember the city.

About Dannie Richmond... what I like the most is his commitment... this guy had his priorities straight... he got committed to Mingus' music, that became HIS THING, I can't think of another drummer in jazz more associated or commited with an artist's vision for such a long stint... he could have become a much bigger name or in demand session guy, just from having been with Mingus... yet he didn't EXPLOIT that... that kind of integrity and commitment is so hard to keep... sticking to your guns like that and REALLY believing in what you do is a true sign of greatness.
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