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  #81  
Old 03-22-2006, 01:24 AM
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jordanz jordanz is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

+1 on the comment below this one.

Wynton is so smug and full of it that I can't stand 2 seconds of him.

Jeff Hamilton is GREAT with a capital GREAT. So what if he sounds like other people. EVERY drummer sounds like the drummers that he/she listened to. Buy a Clayton/Hamilton CD or two and tell me JH isn't awesome. Every see/listen to him play brushes?
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  #82  
Old 03-22-2006, 03:49 AM
fly fly is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

I have seen him play live like 3 times at the Lionol Hampton Jazz festival. Yes I have seen him play brushes. Have u ever heard Verniel Fournier play brushes?
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  #83  
Old 03-22-2006, 05:09 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

I don't know about Wynton... I mean on one side, I understand the comments... on the other hand I think it is because of his success that it is such a bother.

I mean I have read interviews on Jazziz and Downbeat of guys that are AS full of it or even more, and because they are not as succesful, it doesn't seem to bother anyone.

Same goes for eccentrics... I remember reading jazz magazines from the 80's in wich they ROAST Miles Davis... yet his antics or claims were never in the likes of a Sun Ra, to name an example... whom opinion often sees as just another wacko ... ha, ha, ha.

Not to defend him... but I think it is more useful to just ignore rather than be enraged or offended about his work... I know my share of guys that have started listening to jazz with either Wynton or Branford... and that counts for something... that is very necessary in this time in wich jazz is seen by young people, even adults, as intellectual music for snob college professor that drive Saabs.

Heck, it beats starting out to Spyro Gyra, Bob James or Kenny G... ha, ha, ha.

I don't know, just a comment.. I used to ROAST people like that, believe me, you have no idea what a nasty critic I was... pure poison from my tongue... ha, ha, ha... I have learned with time, that focusing on more positive ways to look at things is better... and if it's not, well at least it's better for oneself.

Good luck.
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  #84  
Old 03-22-2006, 07:50 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fly
I have seen him play live like 3 times at the Lionol Hampton Jazz festival. Yes I have seen him play brushes. Have u ever heard Verniel Fournier play brushes?
What does someone else's playing have to do with it? I'm judging Jeff Hamilton and I judge him to be great. The abilities of Verniel Fournier (whoever that is) are irrelevant.
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  #85  
Old 03-22-2006, 07:59 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanz
What does someone else's playing have to do with it? I'm judging Jeff Hamilton and I judge him to be great. The abilities of Verniel Fournier (whoever that is) are irrelevant.
Who is Vernel Fournier?
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  #86  
Old 03-22-2006, 10:49 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Wow, this thread is great. I don't quite understand all of the back-biting and criticism, but then again, this is a relatively new area to me. I never knew there were so many purists! I thought the jazz cats were very much banded together, but now I see there are very diverse "factions" of musicians. Very interesting indeed. The best part, unlike the other threads, is that no stupid name calling fights break out.

As for iPod and mp3; the majority of my iPod tunes are AAC (if purchased on iTunes) which is a lot better than mp3. I personally don't have discerning enough ears to care about FLAC or completely uncompressed files. I can tell the difference between a 128 mp3 and the 320s. I think 320 is the bare minimum for my ears/stereo system if it has to be mp3. The only mp3s I have are individual songs or albums I've bought online from jazz sites (i.e., not available on iTunes or the other big online stores).

I love the printed stuff, however, the places I've lived really have no selection in jazz. The last time I was surrounded by a good jazz culture was growing up in Eugene, OR, or when I lived in Monterey, CA in the early 90s.

I've been to probably 100 musical education events (clinics, seminars, small group performances, etc.) and my weekend with Wynton was anythin BUT smug. Maybe he's changed since 1988, but I found him, to this day, to be one of the most generous and insightful educators of aspiring young musicians. I think he might have a bit more passion for this than say appeasing his critics in Drummerworld ;-)

As for getting rid of the Hamilton stuff, I really only have the Scott Hamilton stuff. I think that guy is a great sax player. His sax sounds like a voice to me. I may be way off base here, but I really like jazz stuff for OTHER than the drums too sometimes. That one just had a combo of both great sounding drums and a great sounding frontman.

Oh yeah, and my dog's name is Dexter. That's how much I liked the album "Go!" ;-)
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  #87  
Old 03-22-2006, 11:39 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanz
EVERY drummer sounds like the drummers that he/she listened to. Buy a Clayton/Hamilton CD or two and tell me JH isn't awesome. Every see/listen to him play brushes?
You know, I liked you from the Ronaldo avatar, then I read your post. You people are STILL NOT LISTENING.
For the the last time, it's not about 'showing the influences' of your heros, it's about ripping them off entirely.

Are you telling me to buy a Hamilton CD?? How do you think I arrived at my opinion (as did the others who share it)?

G
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  #88  
Old 03-22-2006, 04:20 PM
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Pete Stoltman Pete Stoltman is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Stu, I think Jeff Hamilton may be along the lines of what you're talking about. He certainly exhibits influence of some of the greats. In addition he has had a pretty good career both as a sideman and as the co-leader of the Clayton-Hamilton Jazz Orchestra. I think he is often overlooked as being one of the tastiest drummers playing jazz today.
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  #89  
Old 03-22-2006, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

LOL, that's a bit too hardcore for my tastes. I'll just listen to it for what it is; a bunch of really solid jazz musicians playing in live in one of the greatest venues in America.

If Kenny G. actually played a song with swung 8ths I might actually disagree that he is crap. But he doesn't so he is, ;-)

I didn't even KNOW it was Wynton on that recording btw, so just because I found out it was him, it won't change the fact I like the recording (even if I had the same distaste for him, I'd still like it). I guess this is where you and I differ is all.

I can't think of any of my more mainstream friends that have suddenly gained a liking for jazz because of Wynton, so I'm not sure he's doing too much harm. I do know people who are into 'smooth jazz' which really doesn't even belong in the same category really. I think the fact people confuse smooth jazz with good jazz does more damage to jazz than Wynton ever has.

Just curious, what is it about his attitude that would peeve someone like yourself and turn people off of jazz? It seems your attitude would turn more people off to jazz than anything I see from Wynton (not dogging you, I'm just giving you a perspective from someone less hardcore about the issue than you...kinda like most people).

Also, I've noticed this is NOT just about Wynton either. I am shocked about the criticisms of Jeff Hamilton (and not just from jazzgreg), and the general apathy towards guys I consider legends, like Erskine. Are there really such deep divisions and strong likings for guys that are generally considered great? I don't want to be that kid that comes in and says "I don't see what's so great about Gadd", so help me out here ;-)
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  #90  
Old 03-22-2006, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

stu, have you heard of seb rochford? he won the Rhythm best jazz drummer of 2005. he's currently playing for a group called the Polar Bears, who are based in Bristol. I've heard that he is amazing and really leads the band. I've heard that they jam at a pub in Bristol, I've got to find out where it is!
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  #91  
Old 03-22-2006, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Hey jazzgregg, no offense, but now I see why so many people are quick to throw out the "jazz snob" label. I appreciate the dialogue so I'll keep my end a bit more civil than your last post. I appreciate your passion, but I have to admit, you are much more hard core than I am, and I am by no means "Joe Public" when it comes to Jazz music.

I am new to the tradition of jazz, but I am by no means blissfully ignorant to the musicianship behind it. I've played a lot of it in my time, but have always lacked the deeper understanding of the history and roots. This aspect is a new interest to me, and will undoubtedly make me a better player. I think I have seriously downplayed my knowledge and skill, just so as not to talk out of my ass when I have an idea to put forward. So yes, I'm new to Jazz, but only in this aspect.

I am in no way a completely ignorant rock-music only kind of guy.

Also, I never said you were wrong about anything, so pointing out my newness in this conversation is irrelevant. I like the conversation because it is totally fascinating to me, and so much deeper and far reaching than I had previously thought. I would expect most of us in here to think Kenny G. is a poser, but I never expected it about some of the other guys.

It is safe to say, though, that you are much more on the hard-core end than I ever will be, regardless of how well versed I become! I don't mind not being so hardcore, because at least that way I don't have a bunch of crap cds I don't like ;-)

I totally respect your take; I just wish you could respect my budding interest in this topic and not shoot down everything I ask about.

I hinted that your opinions might be detrimental to jazz only because it is offputting to potentially new listeners. I understand you belong to the sect that believes jazz should be moving forward and all that, but what good does it to for the general state of jazz to shoot down anything someone does that doesn't fit your paradigm?

Saying Wynton only has one fan, me, is silly. Maybe the more mature tastes in Jazz circles don't appreciate him much, but again, that type of snobbish behavior is kind of detrimental to Jazz as a whole. (Unless the goal is to have LESS fans of the genre). I get called a "jazz snob" in the other threads all the time (and I snicker, thinking of how not hardcore I am like some of you guys).


I don't expect you to continue on explaining why you dislike Wynton. I clearly stated that it wasn't just about Wynton that surprised me (the vitriol against that is).

I keep asking about the deep divisions because it is totally fascinating to me, and I like a good conversation. I never knew! I have exactly zero jazz fans, so this is perhaps one of my only outlets to learn and share.

One more guy; what do you think of Ed Soph as either a musician or an educator? I seriuosly am considering going to UNT someday and finishing my Jazz Studies degree I started in 88 and never finished. UNT and Mr. Soph seem to be the way to go.

Thanks for all the opinions. I'd like to hear more from the others.
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  #92  
Old 03-22-2006, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

I have another interesting topic to think about (well maybe not for you guys, but I'll pick your brains anyhow).

Guys like DeJohnette and Tain have been around a long while and aren't really considered relics yet. So how has their playing 'moved forward' over the years? I hear a lot of Black Codes in Tains newer stuff. Or guys like Art Blakey. I didn't really hear much difference between his 50s hard bop stuff and the stuff right up before he died (late 80s/early 90s, right?). Is this a good thing or a bad thing? I think I want to agree with the concept of moving forward, but I'm kind of sitting on the fence right now. I see the merits in both approaches. I've been reading a lot, and one key thing about jazz that keeps popping up is to be good at jazz drumming you have to know tunes. How will knowing a 50 year old tune help me if my trio has 'moved forward' and beyond all the bop/hard bop stuff? I quite like the idea of playing in the old style as homage or tribute or whatever. Just something to think about.

I personally love when I hear a recording and can tell right away who the key players are. Obviously, I'm not very good at it, with such a smallish discography, but there are the obvious ones (Elvin and Art Blakey seem the easiest for me to pick out).

Stu
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  #93  
Old 03-22-2006, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
Hey jazzgregg, no offense, but now I see why so many people are quick to throw out the "jazz snob" label. I appreciate the dialogue so I'll keep my end a bit more civil than your last post. I appreciate your passion, but I have to admit, you are much more hard core than I am, and I am by no means "Joe Public" when it comes to Jazz music.
That's true, I'm pretty serious about it and as you can see, get riled up about it pretty easy (it pisses my wife off too=). On the other hand, I hope you weren't implying that I'm a Jazz snob, elitist or whatever. For me, at least, that means that they think that Jazz is the only real music and I definately do not think that. I think I mentioned on here that that 2 of my favorite shows from last year were Iron Maiden and Ornette Coleman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
I am new to the tradition of jazz, but I am by no means blissfully ignorant to the musicianship behind it. I've played a lot of it in my time, but have always lacked the deeper understanding of the history and roots. This aspect is a new interest to me, and will undoubtedly make me a better player. I think I have seriously downplayed my knowledge and skill, just so as not to talk out of my ass when I have an idea to put forward. So yes, I'm new to Jazz, but only in this aspect.

I am in no way a completely ignorant rock-music only kind of guy.
Fair enough, and yeah, as you might imagine, I do agree that knwing the history is very important to the playing and understanding of Jazz. I suppose my only thought here would be to not let Wynton teach you about the history of Jazz!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
Also, I never said you were wrong about anything, so pointing out my newness in this conversation is irrelevant. I like the conversation because it is totally fascinating to me, and so much deeper and far reaching than I had previously thought. I would expect most of us in here to think Kenny G. is a poser, but I never expected it about some of the other guys.
Also, fair enough, I was unclear about your newness, I guess from what you had been saying in previous posts, I'm glad you cleared that up. Still, Jazz, like anything else, really, has mutitudes of opinions revolving around a central subject, in this case, Jazz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib

It is safe to say, though, that you are much more on the hard-core end than I ever will be, regardless of how well versed I become! I don't mind not being so hardcore, because at least that way I don't have a bunch of crap cds I don't like ;-)

I totally respect your take; I just wish you could respect my budding interest in this topic and not shoot down everything I ask about.
Stu, really? I reccommended CDs to you, posted about the RVG stuff, sorted out your label questions and so on. What I shot down wasn't your opinion, it was what, as I said earlier,I percieved to be you saying 'I don't know about Jazz, but that can't be right' kind of thing, which in your last post you've cleared up for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
I hinted that your opinions might be detrimental to jazz only because it is offputting to potentially new listeners. I understand you belong to the sect that believes jazz should be moving forward and all that, but what good does it to for the general state of jazz to shoot down anything someone does that doesn't fit your paradigm?
See above, re: shooting down. Also, if you recall, the specifics of Wynton we actually discussed (prior to his personality/impact on Jazz) was 'Black Codes', which I liked and reccommended 2 more CDs to you by that band. I'll add one more 'Marsalis Standard Time'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
Saying Wynton only has one fan, me, is silly. Maybe the more mature tastes in Jazz circles don't appreciate him much, but again, that type of snobbish behavior is kind of detrimental to Jazz as a whole. (Unless the goal is to have LESS fans of the genre). I get called a "jazz snob" in the other threads all the time (and I snicker, thinking of how not hardcore I am like some of you guys).
I never said Wynton has one fan- you, I said *I* personally only know 1 fan out of all the musicians I know- you. That's my point, actually. It isn't about appreciation of him, I've said that. Any musician that knows anything about trupet OR Jazz will know Wynton is a badass player, but that's never what 'mature' Jazz musicians are upset at him for. Don't mistake snobbishness for opinionated dedicated, or passionate. Manchester United fans hate Liverpool fans, but they aren't football snobs, they're impassioned, loyal and dedicated United fans=)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
I don't expect you to continue on explaining why you dislike Wynton. I clearly stated that it wasn't just about Wynton that surprised me (the vitriol against that is).

I keep asking about the deep divisions because it is totally fascinating to me, and I like a good conversation. I never knew! I have exactly zero jazz fans, so this is perhaps one of my only outlets to learn and share.

One more guy; what do you think of Ed Soph as either a musician or an educator? I seriuosly am considering going to UNT someday and finishing my Jazz Studies degree I started in 88 and never finished. UNT and Mr. Soph seem to be the way to go.

Thanks for all the opinions. I'd like to hear more from the others.
I guess after all this thread, I'm surprised you're surprised. After all the people that have been mentioned, the varied Jazz scenes and Matt Smith's Dad weighing in, I would've thought that sort of surprise would've been gone by now=) It's pretty clear that on here, I'm a monority, but it all depnds on who you know, I suppose.
Learning and sharing are obviously important, that's what we come to these boards for! If someone asks something I know about, I try and help, if I don't know something, I want to learn. I get handed discs on regular basis to listen to, from students, people at shows and so on. I also learn what the trends are (I think Joey Jordison is pretty good, actually). I would never want to take away anyones outlets for music or art, that's for sure. I might come off as an a**hole, but I'm not, I'm just not joking about Jazz music=)

As for Ed Soph: I don't know that much about him, but what I've heard, I've heard good things. I met Steve Hougton a while back at an IAJE confrence and he had really nice things to say about Ed as well. Good luck finishing the degree! Isn't Stefan Karlsson at UNT as well? He's a great pianist.


G
p.s. (Glory, Glory Man United!)
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  #94  
Old 03-22-2006, 11:49 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Stu- I've never been to UNT, but it seems to be one of the places to go... Ideally, you want to live in the New York area to learn about jazz, but UNT's got some great stuff. On the other hand, there are 75 drummers, and I don't know how good you are, but there's like 40-50 groups I think. So, if you're in the bottom third, goodbye Stu's playing chances. I think the best thing about a music school is the abillity to play with people in a group and have a professional looking over your shoulder. Ed Soph is a fantastic teacher... however, you have to remember only the 8-10 best students there study with him, right? So, if you're not in the 8-10, you'll probably be studying with a master's student. Which in my opinion is helpful, but lame.
There are other options... New School in New York is great. William Patterson College and Rutgers are great, awesome teachers. I think you want to hook up with a guy like John Riley for jazz- which you'll get at New School or William Patterson. The teacher at Rutgers is Ralph Peterson Jr. who's a very, very good player- not COMPLETELY technically with it but he sounds great still and teaches very well. If you want to check out Boston, Berklee and New England Conservatory are GREAT places to go. At Berklee for jazz guys, there's Terri Lyne Carrington, Ian Froman (who is a GREAT drummer... way way better than his metalwood recordings would suggest although he sounds good on those), Skip Hadden teaches there too... As for NEC, guys like Gary Chaffee etc teach there... You know a school is good when you have Danilo Perez teaching your composition class.
You could also check out north of the border- McGill and University of Toronto are GREAT schools. People tend to forget there's 30 million people in Canada... There's a LOT of really happening drummers up here in Montreal or Toronto who can play circles around most NY guys.
Hope this was informative, Stu.
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  #95  
Old 03-23-2006, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Wow, this thread really heated up since I last looked.

I do have a big problem with some of the attitudes that prevail in jazz. It's one of the big reasons I don't play a lot of it, to be honest. There's this whole "hip cat" attitude that seems to me to be the antithesis of personal expression: Your playing is under constant and often virulent assessment from people around you, all of whom want to give you (often conflicting) advice as if it is absolute gospel. But worse than that, it's not just playing - there's a serious push to make you conform in your musical thinking, language and appearance too. As they say, opinions are like ("gasholes" - ed), everybody has one. But in jazz, those aforementioned holes are an awful lot bigger.

The roots of this actually make a lot of sense - jazz had, historically, a very impressive system of apprenticeships of sorts, where musicians would being trained and improved by the players around them. But my general feeling is that the attitude of "hey, I'll teach you" has kind of turned into this alpha-male pissing contest in most jazz circles I've been a part of, where people are always jousting to make their advice the primary one on other players and worrying more about the status of themselves and their opinions over the actual music. I've found the atmosphere in a lot of jazz clubs rather fetid, to be honest.

Who cares? Isn't this supposed to be about music?

I do agree with being able to communicate your opinions on music freely. Personally I really don't like what Mike Portnoy does on a drum kit, and I'm happy to say so. Ditto Weckl, although that's more about his choice of musical environments. But really, I do think that jazz is somewhat doomed by current attitudes. If there's any one style where I feel imposed upon to conform to a certain attitude, appearance or way of thinking it is most certainly jazz. Most other styles seem to have got over this, but ironically for such a musician-heavy style jazz seems incredibly dominated by image and groupthink.

Edit: Did I mention I really enjoy listening to jazz? Sorry, got carried away and forgot that bit. I really do. But I just can't see myself playing it seriously, for the reasons mentioned above.
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  #96  
Old 03-23-2006, 03:48 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Finn- I hear that. Especially in the smaller urban centers, there are so many ne'er do wells who preach their advice as the absolute truth to anyone they feel who needs it. I guess that's due to the over-academization of the style- I think schools are fantastic, that's the route I'm pursuing, but I think that the school environment can breed these attitudes. Once Joe Jazzer has done a degree at whatever school, he'll assume he knows everything. Jazz can get stuck in the mud for this reason, jazz is an evolutionary music that should progress. Once Joe Jazzer stops learning and closes his mind to other things except his own opinion, then his own playing and creative vision are stifled by the shutters over his eyes.
Happens all the time. The good guys never let this happen.
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  #97  
Old 03-23-2006, 04:13 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Finn,

Your observations about jazz are valid. But I would respectfully suggest that they are of someone on the outside looking in.

I don't think jazz has the 'conform or else you're not hip' objective that you have sensed. It's more of a 'don't piss in my face and call it rain' objective. That's what all the scrutiny and cutting is about. One thing a true jazz fan hates more than anything else is someone on stage who's "faking it."

Unfortunately, this does not always make for a very welcoming atmosphere. I'm guessing that's the "fetid" atmosphere you've noticed before.

Keep swingin' anyway, bro!
Cheers
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  #98  
Old 03-23-2006, 05:03 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Finn- I know what youre saying. However, I find that for all the total jackasses out there in the jazz community, there are about half as many people who are genuinely trying to help. And I just shrug off the nay-sayers for the most part. If someone gets in my face about the ride cymbal pattern I played in the 5th verse, no big deal. I dont really care. If they make a valid point Ill use it, but if theyre just slashing at me to cut me down, I dont really even take it into consideration. I had an experience lately though that I found really hurt me. It was the Jazz instructor at University of Northern Colorado. That man came into our rehearsal and just cut me down as far as he could. As far as Ive ever been. Just me, no trumpets, saxaphones or trombones. I honestly hate that man. He turned me off of drums for about a month. I didnt even wanna pick up sticks. I didnt understand what I had done so wrong. I still really dont. And when I reflect I wouldve had a lot of joy in telling this piano playing "jazzer" to sit down and play the part he thought would fit better. That was a bit off topic, but thats my own little experience with the jazz jerk attitude. So I definitely getcha Finn, cuz Ive definitely been there.
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  #99  
Old 03-23-2006, 08:08 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

britt- that wasn't Chip Stevens, was it? Maybe Chip teaches at Boulder... I can't remember. Chip is a wonderful man.
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  #100  
Old 03-23-2006, 08:25 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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britt- that wasn't Chip Stevens, was it? Maybe Chip teaches at Boulder... I can't remember. Chip is a wonderful man.
No, it was Dana Landry i think? All I know is that he definitely went for the kill with me. Crazy stuff.
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  #101  
Old 03-23-2006, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Finn- To me, any kind of attitude that rails against personal expression is the wrong one (am I that obvious?=) On the one hand, I agree with Drad-Dog that for the most part, Jazz musicians aren't about that, they are just after quality music which is getting rarer and rarer and prefer honesty in music. Most Jazz musicians aren't out to criticize or cut down anothers playing unless, as Drad said, it's fake. Rather, we buy our friends albums, we support them at their shows, we try and hear new talent with an open mind. At the same time though certain 'goups' of musicians are more likely to be the way you're talking about than others. There are, I think like Andrew said, certain centres where it's more inclined to happen.

OZJazzer- It's safe to say that ever since Wynton made his changover from ripping Bop cat to whatever he is now, this argument has been going on. No one is winning (except maybe Wynton who's seriously rich now-=). I'm not going to say anyhting more on the subject because it never makes a difference anyway (don't worry you pro Wynton-ers, you don't make a difference to us either!).

With regards to your comments on Hamilton- you're right, not everyone can be an Elvin or a Tony, that's true, if Jazz was only a music for innovators, we'd have hardly anything of what we had now. If all we had were imitators though, (i.e. Hamilton) everyone would sound the same. As far as my opinion goes, Carl Allen and Kenny Washington are't led to from these guys, they're in the same boat as Hamilton, Kenny is actually steering that boat. Nevertheless, people see and hear things differently and that's what's cool about music. For me though, Bill Stewart and Carl Allen are not on the same level of concept and creativity (and modernity). No matter what I said that was misconstrued, Erskine leads to no one, he is LED to, plus, his stuff in Weather Report was more influential and important than anything Hamilton has ever played.

Re:Vernell- yeah, thanks for answering that question. I meant to answer earlier but I didn't. People need to know about Vernell! He was so slick, being from N.Orleans he had such a sweet groove and his brushwork was very influential. He would play the brush actually half retracted to get his famous sound. Miles' Kind of Blue was basically Miles saying 'I love Ahmad Jamal', or so he's said. The good thing is, you can probably find most of the Jamal recordings for pretty cheap and in used record stores. When I teach my students brushes, VF is one of the first guys I mention.

(and, Stu- Why do they call it football when the only time they kick the ball occurs before or after all the action of the game stops? As much as I know jordanz didnt read the whole thread(=), I'm with him on 'football'. One of my students calls it 'Tackle-ball', that's what I call it now)

For what it's worth,
G
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Old 03-24-2006, 02:02 AM
Elvin4ever Elvin4ever is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

My goodness, I have been gone for a while and only got to observe this forum briefly last weekend. This has turned into a wonderful thread worthy of the archives. However, I am concerned about how the inappropriate language is creeping in. Please guys, we need to remember that kids read this forum for educational purposes.

Duke, I will answer your PM when I fix my computer. The message appears disabled.

Since there is so much to cover, I will merely contribute abbreviated reactions.

Stu: Thanks for the thread. You don't know it all about jazz, but you don't claim to either.

Duke: You're a young guy, but you're smart.

Jazzgregg: You are most likely a cocky, elitist jazz snob, but you know your stuff, and you're a fine musician. Besides, musicians protect jazz. They don't exploit it. Keep up the good work, but chill out a little (lol).

Jeff Hamilton: The truth is in the middle.

Matt: Kid, you got it going on. But I am the least surprised about that.

OZjazzer: In regards to a past disagreement, I have a Wynton analogy for you that will explain what I believe is the correct viewpoint of his disreputable contribution to jazz, and the negative reaction of some posters (me included)...presented in language you will appreciate.

Wynton + creativity = WFD

Although I remain fine with WFD, I know how you feel (lol). Still, you have consistently demonstrated a love for jazz, and anyone who is of this disposition is OK in my book. Regarding these other issues. I am sure we can agree to disagree.

Carry on gentlemen. This is great.

Last edited by Elvin4ever; 03-24-2006 at 03:00 AM.
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  #103  
Old 03-24-2006, 04:11 AM
OZjazzer
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvin4ever
OZjazzer: In regards to a past disagreement, I have a Wynton analogy for you that will explain what I believe is the correct viewpoint of his disreputable contribution to jazz, and the negative reaction of some posters (me included)...presented in language you will appreciate.

Wynton + creativity = WFD

Although I remain fine with WFD, I know how you feel (lol). Still, you have consistently demonstrated a love for jazz, and anyone who is of this disposition is OK in my book. Regarding these other issues. I am sure we can agree to disagree.

Carry on gentlemen. This is great.
Well done Elvin4ever. Very very funny. Almost the World's Funniest Djoke.
About Marsalis. I am not mad about his version of jazz either but looking in from the outside he appears to have done great things with the whole Lincoln Centre jazz program and the new concert hall etc. and therefore surely jazz has benefited overall.

I'm interested in hearing who else could have done it as well as Marsalis. The band itself certainly has guts and plenty of fire and excitement. It's not my cup of tea but it is a very good jazz big band.

Hey, the guy in the LC job was never going to make everybody happy - that was always mission impossible. Taking a world view for a the moment, at least America is at last showing a bit of visable pride and support of this wonderful music that is constantly being ignored in high places (and low places too).
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Old 03-24-2006, 06:56 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OZjazzer
I'm interested in hearing who else could have done it as well as Marsalis.

Jeff Hamilton? -Just kidding, jazzgregg!

Maybe McCoy Tyner?

Credentials, big band experience, fan base...

Just a thought.
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  #105  
Old 03-24-2006, 09:43 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Wayne Shorter.

Elvin4ever, I'm not really sure I understand the cocky Jazz snob thing. Argumentative and opinionated? I could see that=)

G
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Old 03-24-2006, 11:00 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Ok, I've taken in a lot more from all sides and just want to say this about Wynton.

Why are we not talking about him as a player? I see SOME props from jazzgregg and others, but the negative opinions seem to stem from feelings about HIM, his image, and what he stands for.

I guess in this instance, it is better to not know as much as you guys, as I just really enjoy the music. Perhaps I see the point that he used to be a shredding bop cat, and now he is something awful, but I'm not gonna let any current projects ruin my opinion of the older stuff.

Have any of you guys seen the entire performance at the Apple convention thing? I'm not talking just about the 2 minute iPod commercial, but the entire 50 minute live performance during Steve Jobs Mac expo, or whatever they are called.

And now, I have to continue tracking down all these other dudes you guys keep name droppin' so I can get in on the conversation!
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Old 03-24-2006, 04:54 PM
Elvin4ever Elvin4ever is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
Ok, I've taken in a lot more from all sides and just want to say this about Wynton.

Why are we not talking about him as a player? I see SOME props from jazzgregg and others, but the negative opinions seem to stem from feelings about HIM, his image, and what he stands for.

I guess in this instance, it is better to not know as much as you guys, as I just really enjoy the music. Perhaps I see the point that he used to be a shredding bop cat, and now he is something awful, but I'm not gonna let any current projects ruin my opinion of the older stuff.

Have any of you guys seen the entire performance at the Apple convention thing? I'm not talking just about the 2 minute iPod commercial, but the entire 50 minute live performance during Steve Jobs Mac expo, or whatever they are called.

And now, I have to continue tracking down all these other dudes you guys keep name droppin' so I can get in on the conversation!
Stu, jazzgregg is correct. We have been talking about him him as a player. Jazz performance=innovation (the primary job of any so called jazz ambassador). This has never occured with the aforementioned Mr. Marsalis, even in his early days. You seem to be speaking of his ability to emit jazz like sounds from a trumpet. If you want that, let me point you to other trumpeters like Jon Faddis, Vincent DeMartino, or even Doc Severinson in his prime. All of these musicians are better trumpet players.

Moreover, in the minds of a good number, the negative Marsalis influence and its subsequent effect on the free distribution of employment from within jazz has been so pervasive, that it is often difficult to seperate the two in such a way as to ever see him as anything other than not good.

IMO, its like this. The jazz market is miniscule to begin with. At present Marsalis personally has his hands in something close to 40% of the combined income trail representative of my profession. In other words, he is the Bill Gates of jazz, except that his product influences few in our profession but himself, and his contribution towards the greater good is questionable at best. This is why things like the iPod demonstration means nothing to me from a musical standpoint, while incensing me from a business one. While Marsalis dishes out yet another retread, a hundred other more innovative, and creative musicians go without employment and will be unheard. Again, because of the miniscule jazz market this not like other musical genres where the plate is far larger.

From the enjoyment standpoint, again jazzgregg is correct. If I want to hear music like that, I will listen to the Charles Mingus recordings he directly stole it from. They're better played anyway.

IMO, jazz is being held hostage by a one dimensional, bigoted, under educated product of media hype, in way in over his head. This is why he has aligned himself with more intelligent, and unfortuantely far more hateful intellects like commentator Stanley Crouch, whose own agendas are political and revisionist instead of musical, in that they attempt to rewrite the entire history of jazz to suit personal hate induced agendas that Marsalis himself is not even capable of understanding. In other words these other guys coach him. Unfortunately, Marsalis is now their intellectual puppet, and they pull his strings when it suits them.

Therefore Stu, for many of us, it is difficult not to see the Marsalis phenomenon as anything other than a battle of good vs. evil. In my estimation, we're in a war. Marsalis stifles my music and takes money out of my pocket...pure and simple. He does the same to jazzgregg and one day he will try to do it to Matt Smith. How would you feel for example if in five years, your friend Duke's music did not receive its just rewards, for no other reason than it was innovative, creative, and produced by someone not aligned with the Marsalis cultural requirements. This is what we are talking about here, and my contentions do not overreact.

The open market in my profession is currently nonexistent, and the rules are made up on a whim. In my 30 plus years in the music industry, I have never witnessed anything like it.

I believe these things with every fiber in my being. This is why loyal soldiers like jazzgregg come off as leathery as they do (BTW I'm proud of his stance). He's tired of fighting and explaining. But he continues to do so nonetheless, because it remains beneficial to explain the other side to good guys like yourself.

Last edited by Elvin4ever; 03-24-2006 at 05:30 PM.
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  #108  
Old 03-24-2006, 05:17 PM
Elvin4ever Elvin4ever is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
Ok, I've taken in a lot more from all sides and just want to say this about Wynton.

Why are we not talking about him as a player? I see SOME props from jazzgregg and others, but the negative opinions seem to stem from feelings about HIM, his image, and what he stands for.

I guess in this instance, it is better to not know as much as you guys, as I just really enjoy the music. Perhaps I see the point that he used to be a shredding bop cat, and now he is something awful, but I'm not gonna let any current projects ruin my opinion of the older stuff.

Have any of you guys seen the entire performance at the Apple convention thing? I'm not talking just about the 2 minute iPod commercial, but the entire 50 minute live performance during Steve Jobs Mac expo, or whatever they are called.

And now, I have to continue tracking down all these other dudes you guys keep name droppin' so I can get in on the conversation!
Stu, jazzgregg is correct. We have been talking about him him as a player. Jazz performance=innovation (the primary job of any so called jazz ambassador). This has never occured with the aforementioned Mr. Marsalis, even in his early days. You seem to be speaking of his ability to emit jazz like sounds from a trumpet. If you want that, let me point you to other trumpeters like Jon Faddis, Vincent DeMartino, or even Doc Severinson in his prime. All of these musicians are better trumpet players.

Moreover, in the minds of a good number, the negative Marsalis influence and its subsequent effect on the free distribution of employment from within jazz has been so pervasive, that it is often difficult to seperate the two in such a way as to ever see him as anything other than not good.

IMO, its like this. The jazz market is too small to begin with. At present Marsalis personally has his hands in something close to 40% of the combined income trail representative of my profession. In other words, he is the Bill Gates of jazz, except that his product influences few in our profession but himself, and his contribution towards the greater good is questionable at best. This is why things like the iPod demonstration mean nothing to me from a musical standpoint, while incensing me from a business one. While Marsalis dishes out yet another retread, a hundred other more innovative, and creative musicians go without employment and will be unheard. Again, because of the miniscule jazz market this not like other musical genres where the plate is far larger.

From the enjoyment standpoint, again jazzgregg is correct. If I want to hear music like that, I will listen to the Charles Mingus recordings he directly stole it from. They're better played anyway.

IMO, jazz is being held hostage by a one dimensional, bigoted, under educated product of media hype, in way in over his head. This is why he has aligned himself with more intelligent, and unfortuantely far more hateful intellects like commentator Stanley Crouch, whose own agendas are political instead of musical, in that they attempt to rewrite the entire history of jazz to suit personal hate induced agendas that Marsalis himself is not even capable of understanding. In other words these other guys coach him. Unfortunately, Marsalis is now their intellectual puppet, and they pull his strings when it suits them.

Therefore Stu, for many of us, it is difficult not to see the Marsalis phenomenon as anything other than a battle of good vs. evil. In my estimation, we're in a war. Marsalis stifles my music and takes money out of my pocket...pure and simple. He does the same to jazzgregg and one day he will try to do it to Matt Smith. The open market in my profession is currently nonexistent, and the rules are made up on a whim. In my 30 plus years in the music industry, I have never witnessed anything like it.

I believe these things with every fiber in my being. This is why loyal soldiers like jazzgregg come off as leathery as they do (BTW I'm proud of his stance). He's tired of fighting and explaining. But he continues to do so nonetheless, because it is good to explain the other side to good guys like yourself.
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Old 03-24-2006, 05:29 PM
Elvin4ever Elvin4ever is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OZjazzer
I'm interested in hearing who else could have done it as well as Marsalis.
Anyone of fair and equitable mind, with creativity and innovative spirit, capable of formulating his own opinions, while leaving the door open for flexible outcomes.

In arts administration obsessed countries like the United States, such people number in the thousands.

I would appreciate it if someone could eliminate my 10:17 am duplicate post. Sorry about that.

Last edited by Elvin4ever; 03-24-2006 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 03-24-2006, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Wynton can definitely play. If not, he wouldn't have impressed Art Blakey. But it's what he chooses to play that I don't like. Being able to play like the masters that came before him takes a lot of talent. It does not take any kind of artistic vision.

But I'll admit to being turned off by his personality too. It's not just his music that bothers me.
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Old 03-24-2006, 06:09 PM
Elvin4ever Elvin4ever is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drad-dog
Wynton can definitely play. If not, he wouldn't have impressed Art Blakey. But it's what he chooses to play that I don't like. Being able to play like the masters that came before him takes a lot of talent. It does not take any kind of artistic vision.

But I'll admit to being turned off by his personality too. It's not just his music that bothers me.
This is well said, and I agree with every word of it.
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Old 03-24-2006, 06:11 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvin4ever
Stu, jazzgregg is correct. We have been talking about him him as a player. Jazz performance=innovation (the primary job of any so called jazz ambassador). This has never occured with the aforementioned Mr. Marsalis, even in his early days. You seem to be speaking of his ability to emit jazz like sounds from a trumpet. If you want that, let me point you to other trumpeters like Jon Faddis, Vincent DeMartino, or even Doc Severinson in his prime. All of these musicians are better trumpet players.

Moreover, in the minds of a good number, the negative Marsalis influence and its subsequent effect on the free distribution of employment from within jazz has been so pervasive, that it is often difficult to seperate the two in such a way as to ever see him as anything other than not good.

IMO, its like this. The jazz market is miniscule to begin with. At present Marsalis personally has his hands in something close to 40% of the combined income trail representative of my profession. In other words, he is the Bill Gates of jazz, except that his product influences few in our profession but himself, and his contribution towards the greater good is questionable at best. This is why things like the iPod demonstration means nothing to me from a musical standpoint, while incensing me from a business one. While Marsalis dishes out yet another retread, a hundred other more innovative, and creative musicians go without employment and will be unheard. Again, because of the miniscule jazz market this not like other musical genres where the plate is far larger.

From the enjoyment standpoint, again jazzgregg is correct. If I want to hear music like that, I will listen to the Charles Mingus recordings he directly stole it from. They're better played anyway.

IMO, jazz is being held hostage by a one dimensional, bigoted, under educated product of media hype, in way in over his head. This is why he has aligned himself with more intelligent, and unfortuantely far more hateful intellects like commentator Stanley Crouch, whose own agendas are political and revisionist instead of musical, in that they attempt to rewrite the entire history of jazz to suit personal hate induced agendas that Marsalis himself is not even capable of understanding. In other words these other guys coach him. Unfortunately, Marsalis is now their intellectual puppet, and they pull his strings when it suits them.

Therefore Stu, for many of us, it is difficult not to see the Marsalis phenomenon as anything other than a battle of good vs. evil. In my estimation, we're in a war. Marsalis stifles my music and takes money out of my pocket...pure and simple. He does the same to jazzgregg and one day he will try to do it to Matt Smith. How would you feel for example if in five years, your friend Duke's music did not receive its just rewards, for no other reason than it was innovative, creative, and produced by someone not aligned with the Marsalis cultural requirements. This is what we are talking about here, and my contentions do not overreact.

The open market in my profession is currently nonexistent, and the rules are made up on a whim. In my 30 plus years in the music industry, I have never witnessed anything like it.

I believe these things with every fiber in my being. This is why loyal soldiers like jazzgregg come off as leathery as they do (BTW I'm proud of his stance). He's tired of fighting and explaining. But he continues to do so nonetheless, because it remains beneficial to explain the other side to good guys like yourself.

E4E, I couldn't have said it better, even though I kept trying to=) Thanks for the props and the explanation.

G

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  #113  
Old 03-24-2006, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

I know he's kind of like a person I know and all, but sometimes I think elvin4ever is the best poster on this forum. Man, can you believe how the words just flow like that. Man, somebody must have got him going today. You should see his post about opinions on the "watch this" thread where he talks about Derek Roddy and opinions. He must have the day off or something (lol).

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  #114  
Old 03-24-2006, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

This thread is by far one of the best discussions I've seen to date on these forums. Kudos to all the contributors.

I would be interested to hear opinions regarding the documentary, "Jazz" by Ken Burns that aired several years ago on public television. I've always enjoyed Burn's work, particularly "Baseball" and feel he truly revitalised the documentary form. He certainly has his critics, also, and is often accused (at times unfairly IMO) for a lopsided historical view, particularly in his "Civil War" which met with some negativity here in the South. I quite enjoyed "Jazz" and it certainly raised my awareness of many great players and their respective contributions and achievments. Since W. Marsalis is the major voice in the series (but there are many commentators including, unfortunately, the acidic Mr. Crouch) I'm interested in knowing what folks think of the historical validity of the film(s). Apart from his playing, public persona and the like, how does Wynton stand as a historian?

EDIT: I should have re-read Matt Smith's post # 71

A side note. A really great guitarist (and friend) I played with for a quite awhile,attended Berklee for a couple of years in the '80's'. It was around the same time that Delfeo Marsalis enrolled as a student and my friend has often talked about how a division and subsequent polarization of the student body appeared not long after he [Marsalis] arrived. It made for a hostile learning environment as the various factions squared off and the question of 'validity' began to come to the front. Sort of the 'Delfeo' guys vs. all the 'other misguided idiots'.
My friend withdrew in disgust and returned to Georgia. If nothing else, those Marsalis boys can sure stir things up for the good or ill.
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Old 03-24-2006, 10:19 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
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I would be interested to hear opinions regarding the documentary, "Jazz" by Ken Burns that aired several years ago on public television
My problem with it is Burns' reliance on Wynton Marsalis. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I find Marsalis pompous and annoying. In particular, he likes to talk like he's an "old man of jazz". He talks as if he was there and has first hand knowledge of the roots of jazz. Rememeber, he is in his mid-forties (currently). His opinions on music don't resonate with me.
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Old 03-24-2006, 10:59 PM
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...pompous and annoying... he likes to talk like he's an "old man of jazz".

Exactly!

20 characters
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Old 03-24-2006, 11:26 PM
Elvin4ever Elvin4ever is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanz
My problem with it is Burns' reliance on Wynton Marsalis. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I find Marsalis pompous and annoying. In particular, he likes to talk like he's an "old man of jazz". He talks as if he was there and has first hand knowledge of the roots of jazz. Rememeber, he is in his mid-forties (currently). His opinions on music don't resonate with me.
This is much of it certainly, except that I would go one step further in stating that most of the purist leanings and veiled racist pontifications are actually those of Crouch and the poet Albert Murray, who for all practical purposes are Wynton's string pullers. But Wynton is silly enough to believe that he derives these opinions from his own mind, which makes him even more harmful as an historical reference.

As for the historical accuarcy, I agree with Matt's dad, who feels Wynton is an absolute imposter as an historian, which is unfortunate, since said production is now the primary visual tool for jazz appreciation courses throughout the world. Even I use parts of it because the photographs and musical excerpts are so beautiful and visually striking. But when Wynton comes on, I hit the mute button and provide my own dialogue.

Politically speaking, Burns was hoodwinked on this one. In possession of at least a cursory knowledge of both the civil war and baseball, Burns admitted that he had owned only a couple of jazz records before filming this documentary. Therefore his embrace of the Marsalis tact was far more gullible than it should have been. This also explains the harmful revisionist history that he would have easily filtered in his civil war documentary.

Righteous jazz historians will correctly state (quite fairly) that jazz music is primarily a 90% plus African American creation, thus coinciding with an equal proportion of innovators. The Marsalis camp would have you believe that number to be 100%, and that anyone other than African American participants are racist interlopers, although he will employ a small number in his big band as reverse tokens of sorts. In other words, Gregg, Matt Smith and myself disgrace jazz by our very participation. This is of course an utter sham, and bears no relationship to fact. FYI, Marsalis actually fired a number of musicians from the LCJO when he arrived. All of them possessed racial lineage other than African American. This action alone speaks volumes, and in my personal estimation makes Americans look like the socially backwards imbeciles we claim we are not.

By employing such a spiteful tact, Marsalis and his cronies deemphasize and undervalue the momentous strides in race relations experienced by a quite farsighted jazz community, sometimes decades before the American Civil Rights Movement. In other words, jazz helped teach other Americans that integration and diversity was not only possible, but the right thing to do. In the Marsalis view of the universe, none of this ever happened. How unfortunate...Imagine the positive societal lessons that would be revealed if the actual truth were known.

Moreover, the documentary forcibly assaults the fusion era of jazz as an evil force of idiocy, propogated by a misguided Miles Davis, a man who Wynton has stolen directly from more than any other musician. By doing so, jazz officially dies around 1970, making it necessary for help to arrive in the guise of righteous savior...a man who would return things to their rightful place, so all would again be right with the world.

Enter Saint Wynton...

The subsequent hypocritical tone and total absence of any European, Australian or Asian contribution unveils the documentary for what it truly is...a visually beautiful, politically manipulative demonstration of revisionist history on the highest possible level.

Finally...not many drummers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now ask me what I really think.

Last edited by Elvin4ever; 03-25-2006 at 12:06 AM.
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  #118  
Old 03-24-2006, 11:31 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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great essay
Nicely put. I actually sheepisly avoided the word "racist" but I'm glad you didn't.

As an aside, I heard the Lincoln Center Jazz thing on the radio and I thought I was listening to an archival record from the 30s and 40s.
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Old 03-24-2006, 11:42 PM
Elvin4ever Elvin4ever is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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Nicely put. I actually sheepisly avoided the word "racist" but I'm glad you didn't.

As an aside, I heard the Lincoln Center Jazz thing on the radio and I thought I was listening to an archival record from the 30s and 40s.
There is nothing wrong with repertory music, as long as it is not the only new kind of jazz I am allowed to listen to.
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Old 03-25-2006, 12:06 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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Originally Posted by Elvin4ever
The subsequent hypocritical tone and total absence of any European contribution unveils the documentary for what it truly is...a visually beautiful, politically manipulative demonstration of revisionist history on the highest possible level.
The absence of Europe is probably at least partially Burns' fault rather than Wynton. After all, his whole conception for the civil war/baseball/jazz series was that they are cornerstones of American culture and his major interest in them is from that perspective. It seems a bit blinkered to me given the international nature of jazz throughout its history - America might have been the melting pot, but it has never taken long for a foreign style to be both adopted back into jazz and then have the jazz re-adopted back into original style internationally.

I wasn't overly keen on the Burns doco though. As you said, some of the footage is great. But the talking heads irritated me.
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