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  #41  
Old 08-03-2005, 06:27 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anduin
I only take what I feel I need to pull off whatever style of music the gig is.

In general, though, I'd rather have lots of cymbals than lots of drums. For a simple rock gig I might only bring a 4-piece kit, but it'll have ride, hats, 3 crashes and a china.

Yeah I would agree cymbals I can see just because of the wide range of dynamics you can create.
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  #42  
Old 08-03-2005, 07:07 PM
minnietguinea minnietguinea is offline
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

I like using a five piece kit (Bass, three toms, snare) and Hihat, 2 Crashes and a Ride with the second crash to the right and slightly above the ride cymbal. But my big kit would include:
Five Toms!
Bass Drum
Two Snare Drums!
Three Crashes!
Ride
Splash
Hihats

And of course

A Cowbell

What would your bit kits consist of?
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  #43  
Old 08-03-2005, 07:16 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drummerboy
Someone once told me that it doesn't matter how big your kit is but it's how well you play it that counts. He said a good drummer doesn't need a lot of drums or gadgets to sound good. The person who told me this was none other than Levon Helm (one of my idols).
Me too on Levon. He's one of the all time greats. He can get more sounds out of a single cymbal than anybody, and what great grooves he has. I've always wanted to sit down with him. I've wondered how he is these days... Matt
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  #44  
Old 08-03-2005, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

I use a basic 4 piece.

With 2 crashes, a ride, and a hi-hat. I have a splash, 2 chinas, and another crash. I hardly ever set up all 8 cymbals at once.

I also have a cowbell, a clave bell, a tambourine, a hat-trick tambourine, a woodblock, a tribell cowbell, and a few other things. I rarely use more than 2 add-ons at once.

I can't remember the last time I had all my cymbals and percussion on the kit at once.


I would one day like to have about 20 cymbals, never more than 8 in use at once.
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  #45  
Old 08-03-2005, 07:20 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by onemat
Me too on Levon. He's one of the all time greats. He can get more sounds out of a single cymbal than anybody, and what great grooves he has. I've always wanted to sit down with him. I've wondered how he is these days... Matt

Hi Matt....I have set down and played with Levon....you can see on my site all the pictures and stuff...anyway he is doing very well...he is doing Midnight Rambles in his studio these days...and they sell out every single time...he invited my family and me to his home last Nov and we jammed!...and I mean jammed!...check it out at www.tylerhough.com
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  #46  
Old 08-03-2005, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by insane drummer
I can't remember the last time I had all my cymbals and percussion on the kit at once.
I've never set up everything at once. Not for lack of wanting, it's just that I have way more cymbals than stands to hold them! It's good to have an inventory to select from so I can tailor the kit to the gig.
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  #47  
Old 08-03-2005, 07:30 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

"Look for the bare necessities
The simple bare necessities
Forget about your worries and your strife"
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  #48  
Old 08-03-2005, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

All of my sets are big kits, sometimes huge but for gigs I scale down quite a bit. I make it practical by taking only what I need to get the job done. My cymbal selection and kit configuration varies gig to gig to fit the situation. Sometimes I have to take the size of the stage into consideration. But...at home drumming, everything comes out to play. Now if I play a KISS tribute show the 11 piece Tama will be there, lol.

What I play at home when I feel like setting it up:
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480
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  #49  
Old 08-03-2005, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

I have been playing for a long time (over 35 years). At church I play a four-piece kit (bass drum, snare, two toms) with four cymbals (hats, ride, two crashes) and a jam block. In our jam-band trio, I play a four-piece kit with only three cymbals (hats, crash-ride, crash). I may add a cowbell and/or a China cymbal to the jam-band kit. I have other stuff, but I hardly ever use it. Actually, I don't think I could use all of my cymbals at once because I don't have that many cymbal stands or boom arms. Peace.
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  #50  
Old 08-03-2005, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

The biggest factor of me not playing a BIG is due to space contraints and the fact that I have been playing gigs quite regularly since I started playing the drums. I don't like lugging around a lot of equipment it's not fun. I play a four piece with a high-hat and two rides. I have grown very comfortable with this setup. However if I had a roadie or drum technician I would gladly add another rack tom and floor tom, not to mention some more rides.
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  #51  
Old 08-03-2005, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

But one of the coolest recordings I did was a completely unplanned one. Got a call in the morning, grabbed bass drum, snare, hi hat, and ride, and hit the studio. Really forced me to work at coming up with interesting playing, 'cause the kit was so minimal.
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  #52  
Old 08-03-2005, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

I once put both my drumsets together and it had four toms across, 2 floor toms, 2 base drums, 6 cymbals but it didn't sound good at all because there were all differently tuned and stuff and I was lazy and didn't feel like working on it anymore so I just stuck with a 5 piece set I think it's better to practise with that and learn more and then switch to double bass that's what I'm thinking of doing but if this isn't a good idea please tell me
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  #53  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milo
All of my sets are big kits, sometimes huge but for gigs I scale down quite a bit. I make it practical by taking only what I need to get the job done. My cymbal selection and kit configuration varies gig to gig to fit the situation. Sometimes I have to take the size of the stage into consideration. But...at home drumming, everything comes out to play. Now if I play a KISS tribute show the 11 piece Tama will be there, lol.

What I play at home when I feel like setting it up:
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480
Milo that is a sweet kit! I want to add just one more floor tom to my kit below and a picolo snare on the left.

http://newenglandsoftball.com/drums.htm
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  #54  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

I really don't get the "Big Sets Suck" logic. A drumset is a musical instrument! Can you imagine a piano player saying, "I realised that there were keys that I only used on 5 out of the 35 songs that I usually play, so I took a chisel and hammer and removed those keys"?

Guess what I have right smack in the middle of my big set? A small set! Sometimes I have a ball and play my whole set for all that it's worth, and sometimes I grab my Regal Tip brushes and only play the bass, snare, and hi-hats. It's all good, people.
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  #55  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogBreath
I really don't get the "Big Sets Suck" logic. A drumset is a musical instrument! Can you imagine a piano player saying, "I realised that there were keys that I only used on 5 out of the 35 songs that I usually play, so I took a chisel and hammer and removed those keys"?

Guess what I have right smack in the middle of my big set? A small set! Sometimes I have a ball and play my whole set for all that it's worth, and sometimes I grab my Regal Tip brushes and only play the bass, snare, and hi-hats. It's all good, people.
that's exactly right! for example, terry bozzio doesn't use that whole set when he does most studio sessions either, his kit is for fun and personal exploration. I'm also working on pimping out my drumset, but whenever I lay down tracks in the studio, I rarely use my whole kit...
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  #56  
Old 08-03-2005, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogBreath
I really don't get the "Big Sets Suck" logic. A drumset is a musical instrument! Can you imagine a piano player saying, "I realised that there were keys that I only used on 5 out of the 35 songs that I usually play, so I took a chisel and hammer and removed those keys"?

Guess what I have right smack in the middle of my big set? A small set! Sometimes I have a ball and play my whole set for all that it's worth, and sometimes I grab my Regal Tip brushes and only play the bass, snare, and hi-hats. It's all good, people.
Your piano analogy is silly, although your other point is better. You don't see any drummers chiseling bits of their gear off either. It's more like a guitarist leaving some of their FX pedals at home, which is entirely reasonable if they're not being used well enough that they make a difference.

I'm sure you know where I stand on kit size, but on the practicality front I definitely prefer small kits. Spending an hour setting up for every gig gets boring real fast. Even my current kit is too big for my taste, but I can't get away with less on my current gig considering the fact that I'm being constantly hassled to bring more stuff...
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  #57  
Old 08-03-2005, 10:58 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

I think your drum kit is completely dependent upon what you are doing musically. I have a relatively large kit (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=867), but it is very unrealistic for gigging. Dependent upon the gig I either take pieces of that drum kit or I use my secondary drum kit, which is a simple 5 piece Oak Custom kit with 2 crashes, a splash, a china, hats, and a ride. As far as studio work goes, I like lots of options, hence I have a lot of things in my kit. And to be honest I always find a use for every small piece on my drum kit. Unfortunately, I find myself not willing to sacrifice small things on gigs (like chimes or a certain effects cymbal that I only use for 1 or 2 songs in a night), thus they pile up and I'm left with a monster. I love all types of drum kits! Before moving to a big kit I played a VERY small drum kit (in competition for the smallest kit I think). It was a premier artist birch kit with a 10x5.5 tom, 13x11 floor tom, 13x5.5 snare, and 20x8 bass drum (yes 20x8 not 18!). I loved that kit and it was super tight and comfortable to play, but as my musical tastes developed and I started venturing into new types of music my kit just grew and grew. But to be honest I find that my playing is more creative on a smaller kit. It really forces you to think rudimentally, dynamically, and articulately. I find when I play on my bigger kit I depend more on certain pieces of the kit to change the dynamic and articulations, where on a small kit, you change these things by your playing, which is really more authentic playing. But in the end there is no law saying you can't play creatively, articlately, dynamically, and rudimentally on a large kit! It is like a wardrobe really, we all like wearing different clothes, because some are comfortable to us, but not for others. The choice of size and complexity of your kit is no different than the choice of colour for the kit. It all comes down to preference.

-Brent
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  #58  
Old 08-03-2005, 11:10 PM
Brent W Brent W is offline
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Default Re: Big kit = small penis? Big kit = big ____

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogBreath
There's nothing to call me on, it's a simple fact. But let me reword it to clarify your misunderstanding:

You can play a small kit with many drums, but you can't play a big kit with few drums.

Better? And as far as some "big kit" drummers not using everything that they have available to them, all that means is that those particular drummers don't need big kits. Cool. Not everyone who buys a Corvette drives at 150 mph. But if you buy a little 4-cylinder Honda, you won't be winning any drag races. I like having options. If I want to play jazz with only my snare, bass, ride, and hi-hats, I can. My options are not limited, but a "small kit" player's options are.
I think that post pretty much won the argument. It is true, a lot of guys don't use their FULL kit. I have a big kit, but everything I have on it and the way it is arranged is very practical. It just depends on what you sonically want to achieve. Sometimes I can get away with just a crash, a ride, hats, a kick, and snare, but theres a lot of gigs and recording jobs I do where a small kit like that just would not do.

In the end it is all preference! The more you have the more options you have, but in the same context I find that depriving myself of things from a kit really forces me to think differently and play differently. I could never be satisfied with one single drum kit (no matter how big or small it might be). My drumming desires change like the weather, so I often switch pieces in a set up or buy a whole new kit. It is cool to always want to try more things. This goes for everything in life. The second you stop challenging yourself and become 'satisfied' or 'comfortable' means that you won't get any better or more versatile. I think every drummer should have a balance of playing on a big kit and a small kit.

-Brent
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  #59  
Old 08-03-2005, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

Brent, you will learn that in some of these discussions NOTHING wins an argument. But thanks.

=-)

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  #60  
Old 08-03-2005, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogBreath
Brent, you will learn that in some of these discussions NOTHING wins an argument. But thanks.
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You mean, nothing short of nuclear war? That'd probably do it.
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  #61  
Old 08-03-2005, 11:30 PM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

No, we have a contingency plan for that. The mutants would take over for you, and the bugs would take over for Stu. It would go somethjing like this:

Fin: RAWR!

Stu: Bzzzzzzzz.

Fin: BRAINS!

Stu: Hsssssssss.
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  #62  
Old 08-03-2005, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

Have you seen Land of the Dead? I want to be in that zombie brass band... so amend that one...

Finn: Honk!

Stu: Bzzzzzz

Finn: Brwarp!

Stu: Fzzt.
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  #63  
Old 08-03-2005, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

I bet there's a very similar but inverted argument on the Rick Wakeman forum.
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  #64  
Old 08-03-2005, 11:58 PM
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Default Re: Is Your Drumset Practical?

Pwarp!

Bzzt!

Still not twenty characters? Argh.
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  #65  
Old 08-04-2005, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

Quote:
Originally Posted by finnhiggins
I don't think you have the right to make blanket statements like that.
I'm still chuckling over that one. The man is keeping me down!
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  #66  
Old 08-04-2005, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

Quote:
Originally Posted by finnhiggins
Take how a typical professional drummer plays toms - a very flexible instrument - and compare it to how a good Brazillian percussionist can play a tamborine. Drummer - "Whack", moves to next sound surface. Percussionist - a whole musical part with tone, texture and multiple overlaid sounds. The limitations of just playing just a tamborine does not result in less options or less musicality, it results in more focus on the single instrument providing those qualities in approximately the same quantity by means of control rather than variation.
but surely if the Brazillian Percussionist had 2 tambourines he could make twice the sounds...
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  #67  
Old 08-04-2005, 01:33 AM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

but there is no way possible that someone with a four piece can make more sounds than some with a five piece kit (if they have the same number of cymbals) because u have one more drum to make noise with.

ur sayin with a small kit u make more sounds from each drum. (I think u listed four different sounds). So someone with 4 drums can make four sounds on each drum = 16 sounds.someone with 5 drums must be able to make the same four sounds from each drum, meaning the can make more sound (5 drums x 4 sounds = 20)

just because someone has a lot of drums, doesnt mean they cant make as many noises from each drum
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  #68  
Old 08-04-2005, 01:43 AM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

Exactly.
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  #69  
Old 08-04-2005, 01:53 AM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac
but there is no way possible that someone with a four piece can make more sounds than some with a five piece kit (if they have the same number of cymbals) because u have one more drum to make noise with.

ur sayin with a small kit u make more sounds from each drum. (I think u listed four different sounds). So someone with 4 drums can make four sounds on each drum = 16 sounds.someone with 5 drums must be able to make the same four sounds from each drum, meaning the can make more sound (5 drums x 4 sounds = 20)

just because someone has a lot of drums, doesnt mean they cant make as many noises from each drum
Wow, deja vu here. I'm back in the same discussion.

Your maths are flawed. There's *way* more than four sounds you can get out of a drum. Let's try with the snare, not including taking the snares off or using other implements to strike the drum.

Ordinary strokes:
* To the centre of the head
* To the edge of the head
* To a number of points in between - how many sound distinct depends on heads and tuning.
* All of the above, with the head muted by the other hand
* All of the above, with the head muted by pressure from the other stick
* Strokes to the rim with the tip of the stick
* Strokes to the rim using a point near where the hands grip the stick.

Rimshots:
* All of the above stroke combinations apart from rims, plus the ability to vary the %age of rim/head you hit to alter the tone.

Drags/buzzes:
* All of the above ordinary combinations, including rims

Cross-stick:
* Played "closed" so that the hand rests on the drum after the stroke
* Played "open" (like Stewart Copeland) so that the hand lifts off the head after the stroke.
* Each of the above can be played at least two ways, as you get different pitches depending on where the stick strikes the rim.

I'm probably missing some. But that's just one drum. Expand that out to four drums, two cymbals and a hi-hat and tell me how many combinations that is. Now tell me how much time it is going to take you to build up the fine control to access all of those sounds reliably, even on that small a kit.

Now expand that to a 7pc kit with 10 cymbals and tell me how much more time it is going to take to develop that kind of fine control on *that* scale when you need to move longer distances faster and have more sheer sounds available to you.

My point here is that many players who buy big kits do it instead of working on that kind of fine control. I would argue that the majority of players who buy big kits do that, judging by my experience of watching drummers play. That's fine, I enjoy big kit playing as its own thing - but suggesting that it is somehow inherantly more flexible than a small kit is somewhat false when the vast majority of drummers playing big kits haven't even touched the inherent flexibility in a 3pc kit, let alone a 7pc. It doesn't matter if your car can do 500kph if you only ever drive 50.

That's me out for this conversation, since I'm really not here to engage in full scale war with everybody :) I'm supposed to be transcribing, you distracting bastards.. if you let me finish I'll post it! I promise!
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  #70  
Old 08-04-2005, 01:57 AM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

Fin, take a deep breath.

Anything you can play on one drum, you can play on two, and then some. There's your math.

If YOU PERSONALLY become confused around too many drums, for goodness sake STAY AWAY FROM BIG DRUM SETS.

Leave the musical stuff to the rest of us.
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  #71  
Old 08-04-2005, 02:15 AM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogBreath
Fin, take a deep breath.

Anything you can play on one drum, you can play on two, and then some. There's your math.
Really? Let's see a video of you playing a sequence of single strokes in the following pattern:

RH: Floor tom, rim, striking near tip of stick.
LH: Edge ping on a cymbal.
RH: Rimshot on high tom tom
LH: Open cross-stick on a high tom
RH: Rimshot on the snare
LH: Open hi-hat.

No practicing for hours. Just bust it out, in sextuplets, as if you're playing a fill in a song - and keep the dynamics down too, nothing aggressive. I'm sure you can play all of those strokes on at least one drum, and I'm sure you can play singles at that speed - so can you combine them effortlessly around the kit, with a consistent tone and good time?

That kind of fine sound control is quite hard to achieve once you move away from even the comfort zone of the snare. Not even double strokes on the snare translates to every other surface on the kit without additional practice.

The more stuff you have, the further you have to reach for the sounds. Long reaches at speed = less fine control when you arrive at the surface you're aiming for. The more fine control you need when you arrive, the more you have to practice the stuff for it to be usable.

While that sequence isn't easy on a small kit, it's certainly harder on a big one with longer reaches involved.
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  #72  
Old 08-04-2005, 02:27 AM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

I'm going to try to end this argument because it's getting a little strange...Here is an undisputable fact...A person who has a 8 peice set-up 10,12,13,14,16,18, 22, with 10 cymbals with all different sounds is going to have more options and more sounds availible then a person who has a 4 peice set up with 10,12,14,22, with 3 cymbals...
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  #73  
Old 08-04-2005, 02:38 AM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

OK Fin, let me see you on video, playing with a four piece set, a run up and down nine toms. No practicing. See? Can't be done, ever. That's your limitation.

But if the stroke pattern that you mentioned can be played on a small kit, the same drummer can play it as easily on a big kit . . . if the core of it is set up in a comfortable fashion. Remember, a big kit can be set up so that a small kit is right in the middle of it. Are you starting to follow? Anything that you can play on a small kit can be played on a large kit, but not everything that can be played on a large kit can be played on a small kit. Simple, easy, factual, unarguable.

A wise man once said, "Argue your limitations, and sure enough they are yours."
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  #74  
Old 08-04-2005, 02:41 AM
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finnhiggins finnhiggins is offline
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

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Originally Posted by toteman2
I'm going to try to end this argument because it's getting a little strange...Here is an undisputable fact...A person who has a 8 peice set-up 10,12,13,14,16,18, 22, with 10 cymbals with all different sounds is going to have more options and more sounds availible then a person who has a 4 peice set up with 10,12,14,22, with 3 cymbals...
I will agree with that.

Similarly, a person who has a 256-piece setup with every drum size ranging from 1" down to 64" in 1/4" increments has a wider range of sounds again. However that kit is going to be unfeasible to get around with any kind of control unless they're some kind of olympic runner, and I don't think any of you will argue that it's musically necessary to use a kit like that for anything whatsoever. So there's obviously a cut-off somewhere, and my suggestion would be that the cut-off for any given individual is the point where they become unable to access the majority of the sounds in any of their given sound sources. My experience of big kit players is that the majority of them fall into this category - they don't have the control to justify all of what they're using.

If you're not one of that majority, all power to you - you've achieved plenty. Speaking for myself, I don't even think I've got full control over a 4pc with two cymbals yet, but if playing every single sound available on that configuration of kit is easy for you then all power to you - you obviously need a bigger one!
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  #75  
Old 08-04-2005, 02:49 AM
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DogBreath DogBreath is offline
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

Quote:
Originally Posted by finnhiggins
Similarly, a person who has a 256-piece setup with every drum size ranging from 1" down to 64" in 1/4" increments has a wider range of sounds again.
Nice logic. My equally logical response would be that a guy with two drinking straws and a cork beer coaster would be somewhat limited in his range of sounds. But I guess that if I had to resort to such a pointless comparison then I would be admitting the loss of the argument.

=-)
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  #76  
Old 08-04-2005, 02:52 AM
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finnhiggins finnhiggins is offline
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogBreath
But if the stroke pattern that you mentioned can be played on a small kit, the same drummer can play it as easily on a big kit . . . if the core of it is set up in a comfortable fashion. Remember, a big kit can be set up so that a small kit is right in the middle of it. Are you starting to follow?
I understand your argument, but it's false. Are you telling me that if you only had a 4pc and two cymbals you'd position them like you currently do in your kit photos, just minus all the other gear? That would be about the most awkward 4pc I've ever seen.
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  #77  
Old 08-04-2005, 02:58 AM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

So let's see . . . your challenge to me would be "awkward," and my challenge to you would be "imposible." Guess it's settled again.
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Old 08-04-2005, 03:04 AM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

You are ALL wrong.

Medium kits are the best. Specifically my 6 piece Yamaha beech/maple custom Absolute.

And for future reference, I prefer to be Zombies instead of Bugs.

Stu
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  #79  
Old 08-04-2005, 03:08 AM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

Ok, Stu is Zombies, Fin is bugs, and I am two drinking straws and a cork beer coaster.

Stu: RAWR!

Fin: Bzzzzzzzzzz.

DB: *
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Old 08-04-2005, 03:09 AM
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Default Re: Big kit = small Big kit = big ____

Aw, but bugs can't be in a brass band!
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