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  #81  
Old 11-10-2015, 11:02 PM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

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Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
EXACTLY !

I learned this 60 years ago. And nothing has changed.
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Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Pretty much the most insightful statement on DW for awhile.
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Originally Posted by picodon View Post
Harsh but true.
See also, photographers.
Thanks for making me feel like I'm not the rogue a-hole I usually feel like when this topic comes up.

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Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
You have just won the Internet!
OMG! Really??

In that case, I'd like to donate it to all the musicians toiling away in obscurity for the love of the art and not the love of money.

I love you all!
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  #82  
Old 11-10-2015, 11:08 PM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

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Originally Posted by tcspears View Post
This is where you're wrong though; it is the same economy. In another thread on almost the same topic, Bermuda and a few others were talking about taking bar gigs, and charging the bands for their services. Most of us professional musicians aren't just constantly touring and playing stadiums, but we're playing local bars and music venues. I'm based in the Northeastern US, but I've played all over the UK and Europe, and can tell you it is exactly the same everywhere. The pro players are picking up gigs with trios, and small groups that play in their local area. These are the same gigs that your band (and other groups) is picking up for cheap. I'd say more than half of my gigs in the year are for 40-60 people at a bar/club where we each make $100-$150 (about 70-100 pounds sterling), that's not huge money, but it's fair. If other bands playing there start charging $40 a player and they aren't terrible, the club will start to just hire bands that make $40, and pocket the rest of the money.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't donate your time when appropriate, but when you are playing for cut rates, you are impacting your peers, regardless of whether they are part-time or full-time. We all love playing, and we're lucky that we get to work such fun jobs, but we have to be mindful that our actions could negatively impact our peers, and if this keeps up there won't be any band gigs, just hum and strum acts who are playing for tips.
THIS. This is what I'm saying. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU PLAY FOR FREE OR PEANUTS. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

That's not idiotic. That's reality. I've seen it happen from State College, PA to St Croix, USVI.

I agree with what MikeM wrote about the difference between cover and originals bands. There's definitely a difference in audience draw for those. That impacts the venue's bottom line.

Which in a roundabout way makes my point - if what you do makes money, you deserve a cut of that. It doesn't matter if you need the dosh for a mortgage payment or not. You are providing a valuable commodity for which you should be physically compensated. Whether or not it's "work" or "just for fun" doesn't matter a tinker's damn.

Which brings me to the false dichotomy of fun vs. work. MikeM also noted he has never met a 40 hour per week worker who wouldn't chuck it all if he was financially able.

Change your tune, pal, because here's one. We are rare, but we exist. ;-)

I've had many careers in my short life, from soldier to small-business owner. In between I was a professional brewer at a bunch of craft breweries. I never had a job I loved more. I felt like a thief every payday. But I never turned down a paycheck! I was compensated for my time and effort, even though I loved the job like no other. (In fact, I enjoy it more than music by a long shot!)

Speaking of which, the craft-beer industry is another example of oceans of mediocre talent who will work for little or no bread ruining life for people who see it as a serious career path. It's tough to rise above the noise of the wannabees, and once you do you generally hit a thick salary ceiling, so thick the only way to overcome it is to become a brewmaster at a macro-brewery or large regional, or take the immense risk of opening your own brewery and waiting 10-15 years. Owners know they can get a person to do the job for peanuts, so peanuts is all they offer.

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Originally Posted by MikeM
If you think I'm undercutting you or devaluing what you do, then, my friend, that's your problem, not mine.
That is illogical. If I'm over here doing what I've always done and you're undercutting, YOU are the one changing the scenario, therefore YOU are the one responsible for any negative effects which derive from YOUR actions. You are committing the misdeed, not me.

That's not to say it's not incumbent on me to alter my actions to accommodate the new scenario. But that doesn't absolve you of responsibility. You pissed in my sandbox, so I get to yell at you for it. You dig?

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Nobody owes you the courtesy of staying off of your career path just to keep demand high for what you've chosen to do for a living.
I for one am not asking that. I'm asking you be conscious about the facts of supply and demand. A market with a glut of cheap product means nobody can get price for that product which equals what that product is worth. That serves no one. Not you, not me, not anyone.

NB: I am not a professional musician. I make barely enough to keep me in sticks and heads. What I make on music comes out as a loss on my tax return (thank heaven).

The main business I'm in helps to prove my point. My wife and I make and sell patterns for historical clothing. For a while, we worked like dogs to sell ready-made clothing from those patterns. Need a historically-accurate 18th century shirt? We'd make you one. We've been in business a while, and know how to price things, considering raw materials, time spent, equipment cost/depreciation, all of it. Clothing we made didn't sell well. Why? Because there's scads of hobbyists selling historical clothing for laughably low prices, prices I don't even know how they determine, because they barely cover the cost of raw materials, much less time spent and equipment depreciation. Nobody makes any money in that business because of hordes of fly-by-night suppliers who drive prices down.

See the parallel?

If my experience in three widely-disparate fields doesn't convince you that what I describe is light-years from "idiotic," I don't know what will.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
STXBob, I agree with you that paid work for musicians has declined. But it is hardly due to musicians being willing to play for free.
If all musicians suddenly refused to play for free how many paid gigs would that create? Very few. The DJ business would pick up all of the gigs.
"Hardly" is not a word I would use. "Mostly" is my mot juste, and I admit it's arguable. What is painfully evident is that "hardly" is an inappropriate word to use, because the effect of what musicians will take has a profound effect on what gigs pay. It isn't the only impactor, but it's a large one on its own.

The DJ business would take up the slack, and that's a damn shame. It's actually a better investment for most venues (SHHHHHH!), when you do the cost analysis.
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  #83  
Old 11-10-2015, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

Here's the bit that allows peace to break out: StXBob said "if what you do makes money, you deserve a cut of that", and nobody would argue with that.

Hopefully not too many of us on here are stupid (don't worry...I already know who you are!), and if we see money being made as a result of our efforts, however enjoyable, we will surely want a cut of it. That's not the same as playing the local pub on a Sunday arvo, for a crowd of 15, for free because it's fun for us.

Nobody has a beef with musicians earning money. Nobody has any argument with musicians wanting to earn money. Musicians demanding that everybody who plays out should charge to do it is just the other side of the coin that is a venue owner expecting free live music 'for exposure'.

As long as we all pay attention to the economics that control each gig, we can all get along.
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  #84  
Old 11-11-2015, 12:04 AM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

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Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
Here's the bit that allows peace to break out: StXBob said "if what you do makes money, you deserve a cut of that", and nobody would argue with that.

Hopefully not too many of us on here are stupid (don't worry...I already know who you are!), and if we see money being made as a result of our efforts, however enjoyable, we will surely want a cut of it. That's not the same as playing the local pub on a Sunday arvo, for a crowd of 15, for free because it's fun for us.

Nobody has a beef with musicians earning money. Nobody has any argument with musicians wanting to earn money. Musicians demanding that everybody who plays out should charge to do it is just the other side of the coin that is a venue owner expecting free live music 'for exposure'.

As long as we all pay attention to the economics that control each gig, we can all get along.
Nice summary. It's really true that the gig itself dictates how much money, if any, is up for grabs.

In my case, there is such little demand for the racket me and the boys make that I'm hardly in a position to demand compensation. But shitchyeah, the minute the world goes crazy and the masses come clambering for a front row seat at our gigs, bet your ass I'll be right there to collect what's rightfully mine - just like I was back when I was touring Europe supporting acts like Rage Against The Machine and Rollins Band in front of thousands.

In the meantime, I'll just recognize that the stuff that floats my boat doesn't sell much beer, so my cut of 9 bucks will remain 3 bucks.
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  #85  
Old 11-11-2015, 12:15 AM
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BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

'If what you do makes money, you deserve a cut of that'.

I couldn't agree more but this leads me to the same conclusion as Mike. In my neck of the woods, there are so many mediocre bands that get the same three men and their dog to turn up to the pub to watch them. Maybe they make a few quid on the door - but nobody is making money because the bar is covering the cost of salaried staff, the promoter is taking a cut for the equipment, etc.

What would make you more money? Being a commercially viable band.

STX, really interesting example you point out there with your clothing company. I find that stuff fascinating, incidentally. You were complaining about 'hobbyists' taking some of the money from you. Well, sadly there was an issue with your business model - either you weren't advertising widely enough, the demand wasn't there or you weren't doing enough to distinguish yourselves as a worthwhile option in terms of the cost you were charging in the eyes of the market. This is not to question the quality or the integrity of your work. If your work was a lot better than hobbyists but that message wasn't reaching customers then that's an issue of advertising and marketing or simply that the market was too small to make it viable.

The same thing is true with bands. If you are not making money playing as a band, you don't have a commercial product in one way or another. No musician that I would know would actively turn money down to play a gig - it's just that the music they play isn't commercially viable. It either doesn't have a market, others do it better or are more visible and offering a similar product (or the management is dodgy - do that bit yourself).

The point is that commercially viable music will sell tickets with the right advertising and distribution out there with the caveat that even with good marketing and a good product the market may not choose to popularise it. Every bar in the World would like to have a lot of people coming in to see commercial acts and take as much money as possible. The band should then get their share. The fact is that in the 'commercial' circles there are very few bands out there that can make money from their own music, hence why tribute bands, wedding bands, etc. can make money - because they are offering a product that customers actively want. Hopefully those commercial bands always ask for and receive a fee.

The hardest part for a band to make money is turning their music into a commercially viable product. That's where most bands fail. I've heard a lot of bands with great songs, Hell I've been in a band that had commercial potential that had great songs - but without the proper business arrangements in place and the market accepting you, you're not going to make money. It's up to the bands to promote themselves and put themselves into that position and when they believe they're in that position, get paid.

If your band doesn't make it commercially viable for the promoter or barowner to pay you, then they're not going to out of the kindness of their hearts. People will always play for free because they love doing it - but it doesn't undercut the market because there just aren't enough good bands out there. If there were fewer bands than venues and somebody was undercharging for their services, that would be an undercutting. As it stands, there are more bands than there are commercial opportunities.

Right, well that's me banished from the Musician's Union!

Yes, I would like to see more people being paid. No, I don't think it'll happen. People won't pay for me to turn up at the pub in fancy dress - I think of most weekend bar bands as on that level commercially.

EDIT: The real question is how we get people to appreciate music as a product. Well, it's not happening in the same way it did. To make yourself viable you have to differentiate yourself from the market, distribute widely and promote your work. The remarkable thing is that we can all do this for next-to-nothing. If you're in a fortunate position you can even start charging for 'unique' items - i.e. physical copies of work or merchandise that because of their rarity have a pseudo-intrinsic value.

With the market the way it is, it's really important that you stand up to be counted if you want to make something from your work. Think of what you're doing as a business, which is something that a lot of musicians don't. Make yourself valued, put out quality work, make the right decisions, distribute, network and sell your live shows as an experience.

I'm not massively interested in making money from my own music, incidentally. I know the market isn't there - but if I found there was a market, you can bet your bottom Dollar I'd be pushing. As it stands, I'm happy to make a few quid on online sales every month. I'd be doing it anyway.
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  #86  
Old 11-11-2015, 12:19 AM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

Honestly, I do not see the need for the binary existence. Whether or not a musician chooses to require payment for his services is absolutely nobody's business.

Like the penny used to say "Mind your Business"

I rarely ever made money touring. All the income went into PA rental (I owned the PA, tent, backline), promoting (I ran the promotions), and corp overhead (I owned the LLC).
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  #87  
Old 11-11-2015, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

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Originally Posted by STXBob View Post
Change your tune, pal, because here's one. We are rare, but we exist. ;-)
You know you're the exception, right? A rare bird indeed, and a hearty congratulations! Seriously, no sarcasm there.
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Originally Posted by STXBob View Post
A market with a glut of cheap product means nobody can get price for that product which equals what that product is worth. That serves no one. Not you, not me, not anyone.
I get this idea in theory, but we're talking about music here ...

So, define "cheap" product. Would that be Miley Cyrus, who arguably has negligible artistic value, but truckloads of cash that could be used to argue otherwise, or a band like Joy Division whose immense influence can be detected across many sub-genres, but who made very little money in their brief existence?

What a product's monetary worth is can only determined by how much people are willing pay for it. I don't get to determine what my time and effort is worth, but judging by the vast conspiracy that surely exists, it's apparently worth next to nothing. ;)

However, I don't judge my effort's value on how much money it's making me; It's based solely on how much satisfaction and enjoyment I derive from it, from the creative process itself, which isn't something that can taken from me by the hordes of undercutting competition and unscrupulous bar owners.
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  #88  
Old 11-11-2015, 12:25 AM
jmeirhofer jmeirhofer is offline
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

I have no dog in this fight as I can barely put three bars together in time. But.....

STXBob and few others; It sounds to me like you are telling folks that will play for less that they must charge more because you charge more. Regardless of their talent. IOW, you may be a hands down better drummer than the $40 gig guy but he should charge $150 a gig because you do. And if he does not you will stop getting work and he will get work instead even though you are better. On the other hand if he wants to get the same as you do he will never get work because they could do better for the same money.

It is a double edge sword to be sure. But if your playing is superior enough to warrant the extra money, then would not they still hire you when the crowd size warranted it? Maybe a couple times a month they only anticipate X crowd so they use cheap guy. But once a month they have a big shindig so they use you instead even though it costs more.

I can give an example in another profession. I use to be a professional motorsports photographer. I had a rate I charged. More than some not as much as others. I heard it from both ends. The buyers of the images said they could get it cheaper from Photog X. I said go ahead. His images are great for use on websites and business cards. Maybe even hero cards. Mine are high enough quality to use on the side of your trailer and everything in between. So when they wanted quality they came to me and paid more. Then there were the guys that charged more than me who would complain that I was undercutting them. I asked where they sold the majority of their photos. They sold to NASCAR, IRL etc. I said hook me up with them and I will charge the same. Never heard from those guys again. I still got published in magazines and news print. Just not what some would consider mainstream.

I guess what I am saying is that there should be room for everyone. You guys that do this for a living need to make a living. The guys that do this for fun should at least make back expenses. But everyone's worth and self-worth is going to be different. If you want to set an industry standard rate for play, you will find your field quickly dwindle. What is the incentive to make it a career choice if you never get to play before a live audience because you are not good enough to compete on the industry standard scale that those who went before you have decided to set.
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  #89  
Old 11-11-2015, 12:47 AM
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BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

Ok, real World example here.

Manufacturing.

Let's take the British motor industry. In the 70s it died a real death due to many factors. Far-Eastern manufacturers like Toyota started making products that were cheaper due to cheaper labour and undercutting the domestic product and of a superior quality. So, the British car industry more-or-less died and was bought out by foreign investors.

What should the British car industry have done? Well, there were several options. Keep charging the same for an inferior product (which is what they did), specialise production and shift their market position by radically changing output to smaller but higher-end and quality vehicles or make further cost-cutting measures to continue production and lower their cost to undercut the foreign competitors.

Well, you can't undercut because you have a basic price that you must charge to make a profit - that price is higher than the foreign competition. You can only be a loss-leader for so long to gain market traction so if it didn't work, you were out. You can't keep doing the same thing because it's not working, so option 1 is also out.

What they should have done is specialise into a field where there was less competition. The luxury end of the market. Smaller volume sales at a higher base price can still make the same amount of profit, you just have to invest money to raise the bar - which isn't easy either and sell the product as high-quality, exclusive and innovative.

That's the reason why Rolls-Royce Holdings PLC (jet engines) are still made in the UK and listed on the FTSE but Rolls-Royce motors are owned by the Volkswagen group. There is a lot of specialism in the jet engine market and very few companies can exist in that area of the market because of the difficulty in manufacture - to the point where staffing costs are a negligible proportion of the overall cost of the product to both manufacture and to sell. It can't be undercut by cheaper labour.

It took a period of public ownership to split the business but in the end they got there.

As a band, you need to sell a high-quality product that very few people can provide. Up your game.
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  #90  
Old 11-11-2015, 12:49 AM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

TX, SP....

I've read every post on this thread and accept that perhaps we ARE in the same marketplace. I am wrong there and accept that.

However, I don't think you have a grasp on the reality of the situation certainly in the areas of the world I play.

I'm in an originals band. No-one. NO-ONE gets paid in Manchester for playing in any of 20 or so live music venues. It has been thus as long as I've lived and breathed. In fact....bands in Manchester almost exclusively pay to play. THAT I'm afraid is reality here.

The band I'm in no longer play Manchester gigs. Because, well, we'd rather be paid and we're now at a stage where we can play more paid gigs than not.

But. I'll put a hypothetical situation to TXSprears and SXB. I'm an 18 year old kid in a college band. Me and my mates live in Manchester. Or Leeds. Or Sheffield. Or Liverpool. Or London. We want to make it.

So...over to you. What do we do ?

The reality here is that you earn your spurs. You play a few years of unpaid gigs. Really. You take whatever you can get. End of story. And hopefully you begin paving a route into the industry.

What YOU guys are saying is that we should somehow fall on our principled sword. Which is absolutely wonderful if all our peers and competition do the same. But, here's something. They fking don't. These kooks who are not as good as us take the gigs we COULD have played had we had no principles.

And before you know it, we're back pen-pushing whilst second rate tribute bands are playing for £300 an hour.

Here in the UK...certainly where I come from. Do you have any idea what reception we'd get if we flapped a MU 'wage sheet' in front of a live venue ???

It's scrap paper....seriously. It just is. Worthless.

I'm sorry if it offends you guys. I will never apologise for going out and playing. If a professional band cannot compete with four guys who do 200 hours a week in none music related work, rehearse for 3 hours a week and can put on a bloody good gig, then I'm sorry but you're just not good enough. Period.
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  #91  
Old 11-11-2015, 01:00 AM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

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What YOU guys are saying is that we should somehow fall on our principled sword. Which is absolutely wonderful if all our peers and competition do the same. But, here's something. They fking don't. These kooks who are not as good as us take the gigs we COULD have played had we had no principles.
You just made their point valid.
All they, "the guys", are saying is, We wish all musicians would stop playing for free. It hurts our bottom line.


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Old 11-11-2015, 01:00 AM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

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TX, SP....

I've read every post on this thread and accept that perhaps we ARE in the same marketplace. I am wrong there and accept that.

However, I don't think you have a grasp on the reality of the situation certainly in the areas of the world I play.

I'm in an originals band. No-one. NO-ONE gets paid in Manchester for playing in any of 20 or so live music venues. It has been thus as long as I've lived and breathed. In fact....bands in Manchester almost exclusively pay to play. THAT I'm afraid is reality here.

The band I'm in no longer play Manchester gigs. Because, well, we'd rather be paid and we're now at a stage where we can play more paid gigs than not.

But. I'll put a hypothetical situation to TXSprears and SXB. I'm an 18 year old kid in a college band. Me and my mates live in Manchester. Or Leeds. Or Sheffield. Or Liverpool. Or London. We want to make it.

So...over to you. What do we do ?

The reality here is that you earn your spurs. You play a few years of unpaid gigs. Really. You take whatever you can get. End of story. And hopefully you begin paving a route into the industry.

What YOU guys are saying is that we should somehow fall on our principled sword. Which is absolutely wonderful if all our peers and competition do the same. But, here's something. They fking don't. These kooks who are not as good as us take the gigs we COULD have played had we had no principles.

And before you know it, we're back pen-pushing whilst second rate tribute bands are playing for £300 an hour.

Here in the UK...certainly where I come from. Do you have any idea what reception we'd get if we flapped a MU 'wage sheet' in front of a live venue ???

It's scrap paper....seriously. It just is. Worthless.

I'm sorry if it offends you guys. I will never apologise for going out and playing. If a professional band cannot compete with four guys who do 200 hours a week in none music related work, rehearse for 3 hours a week and can put on a bloody good gig, then I'm sorry but you're just not good enough. Period.
...and the only way to stop the 'problem' is to get everybody to charge for their gigs but that will never happen over here and the music scene would die altogether.
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  #93  
Old 11-11-2015, 01:02 AM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

SL, that situation sucks. Sure we turn down a lot of places asking us to play for free, but at least we have the option because there are still other places that will cut us into the profits of the evening.

In some cases, due to our insistence, places who said they don't pay actually still had us play and paid us what they could. We don't ask that they lose money, we just want a small cut for the purposes of professional respect. Even if you give us 50 bucks, at least it's some gas and respect. Bars/stages that refuse to pay even when people are listening and buying drinks don't usually get us.

Being in the niche punk rock scene has it's oddities, though. We do end up playing free shows. Sometimes it's to support another band who needs a decent support on the bill. Sometimes the shows are put together by other punk bands who never intended to charge anyone or get paid. They do it for music, and as long as they are up-front and don't suck, we love to play those shows. Nobody makes money and it's usually actually more fun than a sterile paid gig.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:05 AM
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Squad.....dude.......really just let it go. Companies start out charging for product, not giving it away for possible exsposure so that they can later charge customers for that same product. Oh and before you start your inevitable retort, yes you are a company. If you haven't already gone through the articles of incorporation, filed for an L.L.C. (or whatever the hell you Brits call it) for tax purposes, opened a corporate bank acct. and purchased liability insurance, then I guess you pretty much don't and won't get any of what I am (and others are) talking about. You are far behind the eight-ball, and lacking business savvy (and talent?) are actually willing to sit here and argue your position. It's enough already. Bam! Microphone slammed! I'm out! Let's close this thread.
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  #95  
Old 11-11-2015, 01:06 AM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
As long as we all pay attention to the economics that control each gig, we can all get along.

This is a very smart statement.

I hate playing for free. I might do it in certain situations.
But if I see that the club owner is cashing in on my talent and I am getting nothing, then I won't play there for free any longer.

On the other hand if I'm playing to an empty house, I would feel bad being paid; But I'd still take the money and expect the club owner to be smarter next time.


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Old 11-11-2015, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

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Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
You just made their point valid.
All they, "the guys", are saying is, We wish all musicians would stop playing for free. It hurts our bottom line.


.
Their point IS perfectly valid.

But it's fantasy.

I wish XFactor would stop putting karaoke singers at number 1...
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:18 AM
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Squad.....dude.......really just let it go. Companies start out charging for product, not giving it away for possible exsposure so that they can later charge customers for that same product. Oh and before you start your inevitable retort, yes you are a company. If you haven't already gone through the articles of incorporation, filed for an L.L.C. (or whatever the hell you Brits call it) for tax purposes, opened a corporate bank acct. and purchased liability insurance, then I guess you pretty much don't and won't get any of what I am (and others are) talking about. You are far behind the eight-ball, and lacking business savvy (and talent?) are actually willing to sit here and argue your position. It's enough already. Bam! Microphone slammed! I'm out! Let's close this thread.
Right.

So. No Beatles. No Who. No Yes. No Smiths.

Right ?

They ALL started out playing free gigs. Because that's how you earn your spurs.

They didn't just wander along to live music venues with their MU list of hourly rates. They'd have been told to fuck off. And their story would have ended there. These "companies" you refer to. They don't start out charging for product I suppose is my point. They start off in the grubby side of the unsigned music scene. Playing pay to play gigs at The Band on the Wall for example.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:19 AM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

This has been a far more interesting thread than I imagined, with more diversity of opinion than I expected. It made me think more about my own position.

What I came down to is this. I won't play for free so that someone else profits when I don't. I won't get mad at bands that "undercut" the competition because they aren't my competition. (BFY's point, expressed another way.) I will play for free when it means I'm making music I enjoy with my friends.

That's about it, really. I kind of do my thing, and become a cog in the machinery as little as possible. I wasn't always this way. :)
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:20 AM
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This is a very smart statement.

I hate playing for free. I might do it in certain situations.
But if I see that the club owner is cashing in on my talent and I am getting nothing, then I won't play there for free any longer.

On the other hand if I'm playing to an empty house, I would feel bad being paid; But I'd still take the money and expect the club owner to be smarter next time.


.
I don't think this tends to be the reality. MOST (not all...but most) club owners are fair.

We'll give money back to a bar owner though in the latter example. We've done it more than once. It's just the right thing to do. In OUR opinion. I'd hate to see a venue owner lose money because they were a little less smart than we were savvy.

But (big BUT), for us it's a hobby. Not a career. Not even a second income really (we're lucky to cover expenses). We play for the love of playing. Not for money. I'm sorry if this upsets people who play to pay their bills.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by The SunDog View Post
Squad.....dude.......really just let it go. Companies start out charging for product, not giving it away for possible exsposure so that they can later charge customers for that same product. Oh and before you start your inevitable retort, yes you are a company. If you haven't already gone through the articles of incorporation, filed for an L.L.C. (or whatever the hell you Brits call it) for tax purposes, opened a corporate bank acct. and purchased liability insurance, then I guess you pretty much don't and won't get any of what I am (and others are) talking about. You are far behind the eight-ball, and lacking business savvy (and talent?) are actually willing to sit here and argue your position. It's enough already. Bam! Microphone slammed! I'm out! Let's close this thread.
Crikey. So much wrong in this post. Let's look at the points you raise...

1. Not all companies start out charging for their product.
This morning I downloaded 'SketchUp' from Google for some design work that I want to do. It's free in basic form, free in full form for 2 weeks. After that I need to pay for the full version if I want it.

Have you never received free samples? I certainly have, and I'm pretty sure I'm not a fluke. And in my business I've been known to give free samples to potential customers too.

2. Creating a corporate identity equates with business savvy
Really? Creating a corporate identity separates the legal entity of the business from the legal entity of the business owner(s). That's the biggest single reason for incorporation. If the business goes tits up, the owner can walk away. Otherwise the owner is the business and the business has no separate legal existence. From a tax point of view, it's often a negative, because potentially the business pays tax on its earnings, and the owner pays tax on income from the business.

3. Ad hominem attacks
Dude, you're cross. We get it. But that's no reason to suggest that somebody is lacking in talent, business nous and unable to follow the conversation.

Loved the mic slam though. Loved it.

Just for clarity, I am all for musicians being paid where the situation makes it the right thing to do. The suggestion that musicians play for free for exposure is a silly idea to come from the venue owner, but may be a good idea when it comes from the band.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:31 AM
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Hobbyists shouldn't be putting out fires or driving ambulances. Hey, I'm a hobbyist in psychology. Should I open a practice? I'm pretty sure I've got you diagnosed, gratis of course. Just trying to drum up some business. JustJames you are right. I am a little cross. I just keep reading this growing thread of "play for free" support and not understanding people trying to defend the indefensible. Please don't equate free samples and free lite version downloads that are gifts and teasers from multi-million dollar companies to giving away food in order to get a dinner crowd. Small businesses that run in the red go under. Period! And often extremely fast. Thx for the Mic slam compliment.

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Old 11-11-2015, 01:37 AM
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Hobbyists shouldn't be putting out fires or driving ambulances. Hey, I'm a hobbyist in psychology. Should I open a practice? I'm pretty sure I've got you diagnosed, gratis of course. Just trying to drum up some business.
Come on Dog, it's been a great debate from both sides so far. But you're sailing right over the shark with this last offering.

And I think you'd be honest enough to admit it.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:43 AM
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But (big BUT), for us it's a hobby. Not a career. Not even a second income really (we're lucky to cover expenses). We play for the love of playing. Not for money. I'm sorry if this upsets people who play to pay their bills.
I certainly have respect for your decision, but I sincerely doubt you are truly sorry. You're just doing what you want to do. Same as most folks.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:52 AM
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:52 AM
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Hobbyists shouldn't be putting out fires or driving ambulances. Hey, I'm a hobbyist in psychology. Should I open a practice? I'm pretty sure I've got you diagnosed, gratis of course. Just trying to drum up some business. JustJames you are right. I am a little cross. I just keep reading this growing thread of "play for free" support and not understanding people trying to defend the indefensible. Please don't equate free samples and free lite version downloads that are gifts and teasers from multi-million dollar companies to giving away food in order to get a dinner crowd. Small businesses that run in the red go under. Period! And often extremely fast. Thx for the Mic slam compliment.
Yes - but not everybody is running their music is running it for business reasons. They're doing it because they want to. Not every person playing gigs wants to do it as a profession, so they work day jobs to run in the black and subsidise their music through other work.

People have tried doing what you're essentially proposing by having Unions hitting non-Union members and preventing them from playing. That doesn't work. I'm a Union member and even I can see the fallacy in that.
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Old 11-11-2015, 02:15 AM
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Yes - but not everybody is running their music is running it for business reasons. They're doing it because they want to. Not every person playing gigs wants to do it as a profession, so they work day jobs to run in the black and subsidise their music through other work.

People have tried doing what you're essentially proposing by having Unions hitting non-Union members and preventing them from playing. That doesn't work. I'm a Union member and even I can see the fallacy in that.
Okay, okay. I think the thing that bothers me is unprofessional bands trying to squeak through This is not an indictment of anyone here, I certainly do not know anyone to speak ill (and I am Union too). Professionals acting in a professional manner. There is such a thing as amateur night, and open mic. night too. So I'll temper and concede that non-professional bands should stick to non-professional settings.
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Old 11-11-2015, 02:30 AM
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Crikey. So much wrong in this post. Let's look at the points you raise...

1. Not all companies start out charging for their product.
This morning I downloaded 'SketchUp' from Google for some design work that I want to do. It's free in basic form, free in full form for 2 weeks. After that I need to pay for the full version if I want it.

Have you never received free samples? I certainly have, and I'm pretty sure I'm not a fluke. And in my business I've been known to give free samples to potential customers too.

2. Creating a corporate identity equates with business savvy
Really? Creating a corporate identity separates the legal entity of the business from the legal entity of the business owner(s). That's the biggest single reason for incorporation. If the business goes tits up, the owner can walk away. Otherwise the owner is the business and the business has no separate legal existence. From a tax point of view, it's often a negative, because potentially the business pays tax on its earnings, and the owner pays tax on income from the business.

3. Ad hominem attacks
Dude, you're cross. We get it. But that's no reason to suggest that somebody is lacking in talent, business nous and unable to follow the conversation.

Loved the mic slam though. Loved it.

Just for clarity, I am all for musicians being paid where the situation makes it the right thing to do. The suggestion that musicians play for free for exposure is a silly idea to come from the venue owner, but may be a good idea when it comes from the band.
Some of the best bands I've heard live play for free.

Saw a band last week, playing for free. Called Sons of El Roacho. As good as anything I've ever paid for.

We've been told we're good. We were given a serious festival slot based on someone from said festival coming to see us play a lowly paid gig.

If Sun Dog is cross. He should console himself by knowing that he made me feel cross too. My band is good. We're just not motivated by money.

We love to play...so shoot us.
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Old 11-11-2015, 02:32 AM
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Okay, okay. I think the thing that bothers me is unprofessional bands trying to squeak through This is not an indictment of anyone here, I certainly do not know anyone to speak ill (and I am Union too). Professionals acting in a professional manner. There is such a thing as amateur night, and open mic. night too. So I'll temper and concede that non-professional bands should stick to non-professional settings.
There aren't many around. They simply don't last. Paid or unpaid.
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Old 11-11-2015, 02:39 AM
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Hobbyists shouldn't be putting out fires or driving ambulances. Hey, I'm a hobbyist in psychology. Should I open a practice? I'm pretty sure I've got you diagnosed, gratis of course. Just trying to drum up some business. JustJames you are right. I am a little cross. I just keep reading this growing thread of "play for free" support and not understanding people trying to defend the indefensible. Please don't equate free samples and free lite version downloads that are gifts and teasers from multi-million dollar companies to giving away food in order to get a dinner crowd. Small businesses that run in the red go under. Period! And often extremely fast. Thx for the Mic slam compliment.
Interesting.

There are volunteers in our police forces and emergency services who do it for fun or for civic responsibility.

And there's the Territorial Army...or "weekend warriors" as they are often called.

I don't understand equating music to business. It makes sense when your business is music. But not when music is your hobby. I think you have to simply accept that for lots of people music is simply not a business and unsigned, hobbyist, originals, bands are not going to have the liquidator called in.......it's a preposterous premise when you think about it isn't it ??
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Old 11-11-2015, 03:10 AM
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Hobbyists shouldn't be putting out fires or driving ambulances. Hey, I'm a hobbyist in psychology. Should I open a practice? I'm pretty sure I've got you diagnosed, gratis of course. Just trying to drum up some business. JustJames you are right. I am a little cross. I just keep reading this growing thread of "play for free" support and not understanding people trying to defend the indefensible. Please don't equate free samples and free lite version downloads that are gifts and teasers from multi-million dollar companies to giving away food in order to get a dinner crowd. Small businesses that run in the red go under. Period! And often extremely fast. Thx for the Mic slam compliment.
And yet this - giving away free food - is EXACTLY what a local pizza place did when they started out. They're in an OK-but-not-great location. They set up a stall in a local shopping centre (mall to you) and handed out free slices of pizza. They gave away their product for free so people could get a taste and decide if they wanted to buy more. Many did, and it's now a thriving pizza place.

The indefensible is not that some people will play for free. The indefensible is the notion that somehow everybody who plays in front of people should get paid.

It doesn't hurt to reiterate how we got here: My OP was related to venues asking acts to play for free, for exposure. That's prolly a bad deal for the act.

But acts that don't bring in crowds can, do, and will play for free. Because if you aren't bringing a crowd, why should a venue pay you to be there?

Bands can decide to play free, either as part of paying their dues while they are unknown original acts, or because they are another garage band having fun, or some combination.

None of this should impact on a professional band demanding a fee. Why? Because the professional band needs to be able to justify their fee, not in terms of how awesome they are, but in terms of what they will bring to the venue that they charge. In short, the venue should be financially better off
after paying the professional band than had they not hired the professional band. If the only discernible distinction between your band and mine is that your band insists on being paid, then you aren't going to get paid. And my band is not the reason.

Boo ya!

<kicks mic up into the nose bleed section>
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Old 11-11-2015, 03:46 AM
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In short, the venue should be financially better off after paying the professional band than had they not hired the professional band.
True that. When they're not better off for having had you, we start seeing threads lamenting their demise.
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Old 11-11-2015, 05:30 AM
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I tend to agree with Mike M.

Face it, a Rush cover band doesn't interfere with Rush selling out an arena at $175 average tick price.

Bars are full of Rolling Stones cover bands, but that doesn't cut into the Stones selling out giant Stadiums.

A bunch of buddies playing original music no one has ever heard in a dive bar doesn't interfere with the cover band playing top 40 at another bar.

Even at the paid level, supply outstrips demand. A gig that paid $100 20 years ago still only pays $100 today. So a lot of musicians can feel great they're getting paid, when they're contributing to the so-called problem of undermining the perception of music is worth money by taking the same jobs for less money (once you factor in inflation) than they used to.

I have friends who only do paid gigs, and they go out and gig and tour and such and get paid well. But the tour itself loses money, the artist that hires them lose money, and in the end, ok, the individual drummer got paid, but the band as a whole still essentially played for free because income doesn't match expenses.

And this just isn't on the local scene. Up and coming bands with a record out and management will buy on to a tour, i.e. pay to play for the chance to open for someone bigger, or perhaps, tour for free.

So yes, you can out your foot down and demand your $100 a gig or whatever, but doing so doesn't necessary bolster the concept that musicians should be paid. And if you don't want the gig, there are 20 other drummers waiting to take it.
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Old 11-11-2015, 06:01 AM
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Why? surely he should pay for the honour of playing with you, a member of drummerworld.
or

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Old 11-11-2015, 06:16 AM
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Odd-Arne that's a very disappointing post.

You've included religion and politics, but I'm appalled that you've left out sex.

Please fix it immediately, thank you.
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Old 11-11-2015, 06:27 AM
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I don't know. I mean at our last business meeting we went over our finances through just over two years. Year one (actually just a few months) we made $500. In year two we made $1700 (a bad year that almost ended us). In year three, to date we've made just north of $20,000. We just received our latest contract with one resort that will keep us booked through March 2016. We realistically expect to double this year's income in 2016, and thats if we slow down a little (it's a pretty rigorous schedule on top of full time work). Our goal is to increase our per gig income and decrease our frequency a little, but we'll see. It was a tough first year and a half and we nearly went bankrupt with our income to overhead ratio way in the red, but we stuck to our business model and things turned up for us. I can only tell you what can be done. If you want to believe that bands don't get paid, then for you that is all that will ever be true.
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:01 PM
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("Not all companies start out charging for their product. ") (Quote)

You are right, look at University Education. Back in the day the cleverest got a grant to go to Uni, so they were poor but not in debt, and got a desirable qualification.

Now? The Blair govt created a market by telling kids that unless they got a Degree they would never have a decent job, ever. So, market created, tuition fees introduced, tuition fees raised to 9K a year. A generation of kids starting work, If they can get it, massively in debt with an almost meaningless degree from what was a third rate Polly until a few years ago.

It would be brilliant marketing if it was just a business venture.

So if you are a band that has something that no one else has, but the public want or need it, create market, then charge. Oh....and good luck with that last bit.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:01 PM
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My viewpoint comes from playing in a cover band. I do enjoy playing drums- but most of the songs we play are for the crowd- not us.
I would not choose to listen to the music we play for enjoyment- I learn and play these songs because we determine what "goes over" with the typical crowd in the places we play regularly.

If I played strictly for the love of it, the song selection would be much different.

think of a painter who loved the art of painting- now hire him/her to paint your house- to me, that is the difference between covers and originals.

Most cover bands wont play for free, but a one set gig for an originals band around here is typically unpaid. If the originals band can draw a big crowd, then they get paid. Anyone in New England area remember the Schemers from the 80's?
They recently played at the Met and packed the place-I bet they got paid well.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:21 PM
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My viewpoint comes from playing in a cover band. I do enjoy playing drums- but most of the songs we play are for the crowd- not us.
I would not choose to listen to the music we play for enjoyment- I learn and play these songs because we determine what "goes over" with the typical crowd in the places we play regularly.

If I played strictly for the love of it, the song selection would be much different.

think of a painter who loved the art of painting- now hire him/her to paint your house- to me, that is the difference between covers and originals.

Most cover bands wont play for free, but a one set gig for an originals band around here is typically unpaid. If the originals band can draw a big crowd, then they get paid. Anyone in New England area remember the Schemers from the 80's?
They recently played at the Met and packed the place-I bet they got paid well.
I am 100% in agreement with you and believe that it is exactly the same here in the UK generally speaking.

We choose to play originals. We are lucky to get paid. Fortunately some people now have us back and pay us. But ONLY because we played a first gig for free to show them what we can do.

I am sitting in for a covers band in 2016. The amounts I will be getting paid for tapping along to Teenage Kicks and songs of that ilk, is astonishing.

It's quite wrong really. But it is how it is.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:43 PM
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I don't know. I mean at our last business meeting we went over our finances through just over two years. Year one (actually just a few months) we made $500. In year two we made $1700 (a bad year that almost ended us). In year three, to date we've made just north of $20,000. We just received our latest contract with one resort that will keep us booked through March 2016. We realistically expect to double this year's income in 2016, and thats if we slow down a little (it's a pretty rigorous schedule on top of full time work). Our goal is to increase our per gig income and decrease our frequency a little, but we'll see. It was a tough first year and a half and we nearly went bankrupt with our income to overhead ratio way in the red, but we stuck to our business model and things turned up for us. I can only tell you what can be done. If you want to believe that bands don't get paid, then for you that is all that will ever be true.
Congratulations. Seriously. You've made money out of music. That deserves respect and you have mine.

Listen, I can only tell you how it is in the UK. If anyone in the UK comes back at me and says "you've got it all wrong...you're talking crap...etc. then I will doff my cap in reverence, hold my hands up, and say "fine, it's me".

In the UK, covers bands get paid. A good covers or tribute band will get regular gigs. There's is probably a decent career in playing covers, or being in a tribute band. And probably regular gigs, two, three times a week, maybe even more.

I, and plenty of my ilk, don't want to play covers. It's boring. I don't care if there is an audience for it. It's not what we want to do. We want to play our own songs, and we want people to enjoy them and perhaps say "actually you're really good and your songs are really catchy".

In Manchester, there isn't a single venue in the City Centre who would pay an originals, unsigned, band for a 30 minute set. Doesn't matter how many people you tell them you can bring. You simply do not get paid. That's the economy in Manchester for originals bands. You can opt to pay to play, then take a cut of the ticket sales. But it invariably is steeped in favour of the venue. We won't pay to play. And in fact we won't play in Manchester at all anymore.

However, if you are a young or new band. Without a following, trying to gain a following. Perhaps ultimately aiming to get signed...well, let me put it to you. What would you have me, or THAT band do?? You've gotta be playing Manchester...cos that's where the talent scouts are. So what are my options. You tell me. Using all your experience of being a professional musician. How can I get this band off the ground.

Now...me and my pals don't want to get signed. And we don't much care for Manchester. So, we will play paid gigs at pubs and clubs. But here's the thing. We play a regular slot at a place called the Railway in Whaley Bridge. The guy runs a great venue. He's a real supporter of live music. He pays a decent wedge. £150 minimum. That's a fortune for a band to be paid round here. Seriously, it is !

We go in touch with Alan the landlord about 18 months ago. We said "can we play your joint one Friday". "I've never heard of you. Where are you from. Etc. Etc." The guy has a regular clientelle who seem to love their live music. It's risky for Alan to put unknown live bands on. So, we said "Alan, put us on as a support band for another more regular band. We'll do a short slot. Then we'll do you a full, free, gig. See how it goes. If you like us, rebook us for a paid slot". He skipped the support slot and put us on for the first time.

He actually paid us £150 for that first slot. We refused it. But he insisted. Our second slot, he paid us £50 extra on top because we took our regular support artist, a young lad called Luke Gallagher. We split it five ways, paid Luke the same as we individually earnt. He's 18. Didn't want it. We forced him to take it.

We've played two or three times since. And we're now really good friends with the guy. We're doing our Christmas gig there. It will be a blast. We've absolutely insisted that it's our (original) free slot. We will NOT take pay for it. It's on us as a thank you to him for supporting us and live music. He's giving us a free bar all night and we'll be drinking till probably four or five in the morning on his tab. And he'll probably still fight to pay us.

But my point...this is absolutely the exception to the rule here. Original, unsigned bands, simply do not get paid, unless you get real salt of the earth characters running the show, in venues outside the city centres. And then, as an unsigned, originals band, if you want to play the venue you have to be willing to take a hit first, to get your feet under the table.

But there's no money to be made in terms of making it a full or semi professional vocation. Not if you want to play originals. And certainly not if you have no interest in being signed by a label (none of us do). That doesn't mean we lack quality, or professionalism as you suggested in your earlier post. Feedback we've received recently....
  • saw you all @ punkinfest... monster set, great original sounding music. one of the highlights of the event.
  • We came for the atmosphere, and a few other things, and went away with your album. But the best song is missing from it. https://youtu.be/OYeK0nFQi3U Will there be another album? and when?
  • Saw you lads a couple of weeks ago at Alan's pub. The young lad playing the guitar was fabulous and set up the night. Didn't think it could get any better but it did. We had a great night at the Railway... and we will be back to watch you again. Looked you up on youtube, I see you have done some great gigs.. My missus love you as well think she as a crush on the bass player....likes his bass swagger
  • saw you lot playing at the railway on Saturday, I bought a cd off you, must say I quite like the cd some really good songs on it, your live set was full of energy, the lead singer is a funny chap, very witty when introducing the songs, he brought a smile to my face. will definitely be going to watch you on your return visit.

Our band has taken off this year....we've been paid for around 3/4 of our gigs this year. We were paid a couple of times last year. In 2013 we played all year and were never paid once.

I'm sorry that this post went on. But it is a really interesting debate on a very important subject.
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Last edited by SquadLeader; 11-11-2015 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:49 PM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

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Originally Posted by The SunDog View Post
I don't know. I mean at our last business meeting we went over our finances through just over two years. Year one (actually just a few months) we made $500. In year two we made $1700 (a bad year that almost ended us). In year three, to date we've made just north of $20,000. We just received our latest contract with one resort that will keep us booked through March 2016. We realistically expect to double this year's income in 2016, and thats if we slow down a little (it's a pretty rigorous schedule on top of full time work). Our goal is to increase our per gig income and decrease our frequency a little, but we'll see. It was a tough first year and a half and we nearly went bankrupt with our income to overhead ratio way in the red, but we stuck to our business model and things turned up for us. I can only tell you what can be done. If you want to believe that bands don't get paid, then for you that is all that will ever be true.
Damn....double post. Apologies.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:57 PM
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Default Re: Play free for exposure?

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Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
STX, really interesting example you point out there with your clothing company. I find that stuff fascinating, incidentally. You were complaining about 'hobbyists' taking some of the money from you. Well, sadly there was an issue with your business model - either you weren't advertising widely enough, the demand wasn't there or you weren't doing enough to distinguish yourselves as a worthwhile option in terms of the cost you were charging in the eyes of the market. This is not to question the quality or the integrity of your work. If your work was a lot better than hobbyists but that message wasn't reaching customers then that's an issue of advertising and marketing or simply that the market was too small to make it viable.
So it's MY fault when someone else practices predatory pricing practices (or clueless pricing that has the same effect)?

Bullshit.

We tried all of that. All. Of. It. The only response it got out of the consumer is "Why should I buy this handmade, museum-quality replica from you for $whatit'sworth when I can get it from CluelessInc for 20% of that?" We're not talking the difference between a Savile Row suit and one from Marks & Sparks. We're talking the exact same product, made the same way from the same materials, sold by clueless hobbyists for, in many cases, less than the cost of materials.

There's no advertising or marketing strategy that'll overcome that. If people can get a comparable product for less money, they will take it. Every time. If someone comes into the market who doesn't know how to effectively price a product - or doesn't have to set a real price, because it's a hobby "business" subsidized by other family income - it hurts the people who have already set sensible pricing in order to eat.

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
Whether or not a musician chooses to require payment for his services is absolutely nobody's business.
It becomes my business when his choice impacts my bottom line.

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Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
You know you're the exception, right? A rare bird indeed, and a hearty congratulations! Seriously, no sarcasm there.
Thank you! :-)

Quote:
So, define "cheap" product. Would that be Miley Cyrus, who arguably has negligible artistic value, but truckloads of cash that could be used to argue otherwise, or a band like Joy Division whose immense influence can be detected across many sub-genres, but who made very little money in their brief existence?
It's not that simple. Artistic value can't be judged by price tag, in my opinion. Second, Miley Cyrus would be nowhere without having an already-famous parent. Third, music of negligible artistic value has always made more money than the cool, fulfilling stuff. Always. That's why cover bands make more than originals bands, and that's why original bands all too often sound the same: People don't want to be confronted with something new, and they don't want to be seen to be too far apart from the crowd. People don't want to be confronted with things that don't resemble what they've already experienced. People want tomorrow to look exactly like today, by and large. They don't want adventure.

Music is a business. Just as you'll sell far more plain vanilla than triple espresso cinnamon ripple, you'll sell far more saccharine pop than metal symphonic. Hell, even one band can experience that; look what happened to Yes when some members wanted to release songs like "Owner of a Lonely Heart."

Music is a business. Artistes forget that and forge on creating - which is wonderful! - but they need to remember that there are working artists who keep body and soul together through the same media. Artistes should have the courtesy to not get in the way of that.

By the way, when my wife gets annoyed with the rumble of my bass amp when I'm doing scales, I play "Love Will Tear Us Apart" to mollify her. :-P

Quote:
However, I don't judge my effort's value on how much money it's making me; It's based solely on how much satisfaction and enjoyment I derive from it, from the creative process itself, which isn't something that can taken from me by the hordes of undercutting competition and unscrupulous bar owners.
Right there's the crucial difference. I don't judge my work's value solely on money, either. Everything is subject to the law of diminishing returns, and we all have different currency we find valuable. I don't look at gigs solely because of the money made. It has to be worthwhile musically and the people have to be cool.

To a point. If the gig paid really, really well, I'd play Miley Cyrus songs with jerks. At the same time, I'm not going to join a band trying to create the next thrash-metal symphonic rock opera, even if the creators are my best friends, because it's nothing more than mental masturbation.

Understanding that what provides satisfaction is a spectrum is key to understanding this issue. Understanding and acknowledging that you can't eat satisfaction and enjoyment helps a lot. Understanding and acknowledging the impact of letting venue owners exploit you and your work because you'll work for satisfaction and enjoyment on those who make their living by their art, well, that goes even farther.

Really, you and I are going after different gigs. We're not really competing, because we're playing different things. I'm part of a living, breathing jukebox. You're not; you're creating things that should go in the jukebox. Those are different products in different markets. What I'm bitching about is when another jukebox comes into my scene and undercuts me.

You dig?
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