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  #1  
Old 03-28-2011, 10:43 AM
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Default I don't think this is a rant but....

You know, I've been on this forum for some time now and have made quite a few friendly aquaintances here, so please don't take this as any kind of disrespect, but every time someone brings up some young kid who solos incredibly well, or even an older person who plays really well, many of you, in addition to admiring the playing, say things like "I could never do that", or "I should just give up on trying to learn how to do this" or something to that effect.

I learned at a pretty young age that your own self-talk is tantamount to you're being successful at anything. And as drummers, especially if you're chasing the dream of being a working one while you toil away in school or on a full time job (like me) it's so easy to just give up when your drumming just becomes less than a hobby status.

But I think alot of you sell yourselves short when you heap so much respect upon other players who can do what seems incredibly difficult to you. When I see an awesome player, sure, they get my respect and admiration for being able to do the impossible (compared to my skills), but they don't get it at the cost of me feeling bad that I can't do it too. Seeing an awesome player is supposed to be inspirational and motivational, because let's face it, this music business is hard. If you can't push yourself to get better all the time or you want to run away every time a good player comes in to the room, then you don't belong on any stage! And the whole idea of you picking up the drums is for.....?

Yes, there are awesome players on YouTube, and out doing clinics, and playing in bands out on tour. That's great. So what? You be great too. If you have the desire to be good, you will become good. The only difference between someone who can do anything as opposed to the beginner is that the guy who can do anything has been telling himself that he can do anything longer than he's been saying "this is impossible". Try to keep that in mind the next time some prodigy kid shows up on YouTube. I hate it when people stop doing what they love, especially when it's for the wrong reasons.

Was that a rant? I don't think so....
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:04 AM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

Completely agree Bo (although I have been known to throw out the occasional levity negative). I forgot who said this; "you don't have to be the best, but you should always be your best".

My drumming journey is divided into two sections. The early "glory" years when I cut a megre living as a player. During this period, almost every player on the same circuit was a better player than me. Certainly more multi skilled, yet I cut a living as a steady pair of hands in a rock environment. Now the second section; On my return to drumming after 20+ years off, the gulf between my ability and that of my peers is even greater. Not only am I badly under practiced, but the game has moved on hugely. Do I let that phase me? Not for one moment. There's still a ton of musos who want to play with me, & my playing seems to hit the mark with sizeable audiences wherever I play. I guess I'm doing something right, even though there's many who are quick to tell me I'm doing everything wrong. Moreover, I'm having a ton of fun. In other words, the existence of uber skilled players has no real world bearing on little me in my personal bubble. Great to admire, sure, but they don't play my circuit & don't impact my life in any way whatsoever.

I know my place in the scheme of things, & I'm happy in my shell. I enjoy making music so much more than the mechanics of playing drums, so close to impossible feats of instrument prowess mean even less to me. One of the most impressive things I've heard this year in the "your playing" section was a single crash hit from Thaard. So well placed, & conveyed a ton of emotion. If I can be so moved by a single crash hit, you can guess at how much I'm affected by mastery of mechanics.
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:08 AM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

Not so much a rant .... as a pretty good pep talk.
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:25 AM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

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Originally Posted by harryconway View Post
Not so much a rant .... as a pretty good pep talk.
I agree.

Still to be fair, the kind of humiliation of seeing some little pipsqueak barely out of nappies kicking your sorry a$$ on the kit is akin to knowing those kids at school who were better looking, more popular, better adjusted, more soulful, smarter, more sporty and more artistically talented than you. It's only human to wonder at times why you bother in the face of such obvious superiority in every area of life. Thing is, it's generally only a fleeting moment of doubt and then most people forget about it and get back to doing what they do.

I don't sweat that stuff now that I'm older and (arguably) wiser. I'm glad there are prodigiously talented people out there because if I was the pinnacle I'd find the arts scene pretty darn disappointing!
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:40 AM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

Right with you on this one Bo. Whatever one might think of Henry Ford, he was bang on the money when he said 'whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way you are right'.
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:42 AM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

...

I agree with Harry ( I almost always do.. ). What you suggest is how one must keep everything in perspective, and rightly so. However, easier said than done, imho.

I think its natural to feel overwhelmed and intimidated when someone can effortlessly create the kind of magic on a drumset that you've always been dreaming of. The punctured ballon feeling because you think you could never do that in a million years is quite common, something everyone experiences, especially in one's early development.

With some amount of knowledge & experience comes the ability to not hate yourself every time you see a better player and to draw something positive and something you can use instead.....from listening to almost anybody; "I'd never want to play like so and so, but I love how he uses his left foot, or the how loosely he holds his sticks, or his posture, or his enthusiasm".. it could be anything.

You're a pretty experienced player, Bo so it is understandable how you feel, but go back to a time when you didn't really like your own playing or a time when there was not much to like.. its easy to get deflated.

And yes, its important not to stay deflated. My 2 Cs'.


...

Last edited by aydee; 03-28-2011 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:25 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

I have often thought about this. It's difficult not to be envious when you see someone rattle round the kit as if they were born to it. But the fact is that some people are talented at drumming and others are not. A talent is defined as something you cannot be taught. It is either there or it isn't. That sounds quite a lot like luck to me.

I'm not saying they don't achieve their level without a lot of very hard work. Drumming brings together a lot of skills, like learning how music works, how to co-ordinate with other muso's, how to deal with endless hours of band practice. It's not just about tub thumping, there are a host of other things that go with being a pro. And of course when you become a star there are a whole load of new issues.

My feeling is that a lot of it is just luck. The luck of being talented, the luck of discovering and exploiting that, the luck of having a place to do it and the time to do it in. People follow their inclinations and there may be fantastically good drummers out there who don't play because of lack of time, opportunity, interest and all the other things that have to come together.
Funny old world innit?
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
I agree.


I don't sweat that stuff now that I'm older and (arguably) wiser. I'm glad there are prodigiously talented people out there because if I was the pinnacle I'd find the arts scene pretty darn disappointing!
I would not be playing if not for being in awe of truely talented musicians...One of my biggest joys musically this year was finally nailing a foo fighters cover..I challanged myself..it took many hours behind my set.the practice I nailed it the other band member high fived me..this is one of the main reasons I play.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:42 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

Quote:
Originally Posted by aydee View Post
...
You're a pretty experienced player, Bo so it is understandable how you feel, but go back to a time when you didn't really like your own playing or a time when there was nothing to like.. its easy to get deflated.
You've assumed that I like the way I play now. Fact of the matter is, I have this constant compunction to pick apart what I do. So I'm probably always in a state of constant deflation that was probably triggered by this childhood experience: Mom and Dad drive me to my first gig and it goes great, everybody's happy and I get my first bit amount of money for showing up with some drums, playing a little show and then going home. Then on the way home, dad turns around and says, "You did great son. Don't forget to put out the trash tomorrow morning before you go to school".

Kinda' hard to get full of yourself for long when your parents do those kinds of favors for you ;) So in a way, with always being knocked down a bit, I've turned into this person striving to get better all the time because one day I'll have somebody to put the trash out for me. Oddly enough that hasn't happened yet.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

Ah those halycian days before the internet, when I really thought I was quite good ...

Bo, I don't really get intimidated by impressive chops. You cannot fit into any band or genre without knowledge of the music, knowledge of the other personalities, knowledge of what fits with what musically. This takes a lot of skills; none of which are to do with chops.

You can only learn these aspects by being open, honest, humble and willing to learn. With a lack of humility you will be billy no-mates regardless of your chops.

Thus, I'm only ever impressed with groove and players that fit into their musical environment. And then I'm not intimidated I'm impressed.

That's how I deal with it!

Davo
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Old 03-28-2011, 01:45 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

Bo, not a rant, a well needed perspective check. Most of you know, I started late, 47. I would go to my lesson and my teacher, who is an immense talent would be huffing and puffing because his last lesson was so challenging, kid was 14. "Yea? Well I got a car you little brat"

Wait a tick, your you, he is him (the kid prodigy). I guess comparing doesn't always help.

Two things I have learned and apply to drumming: Don't compare my insides to somebody else's outsides. I love drumming, the chance to make music with other folks carries me for days.

The other thing I learned and this one is far more important in my work but still applies, At the end of the game, the King and the Pawn go back into the same box. Some days I am a king, some days a pawn.

The other situation that makes me have to stop, physically stop and say: Perspective Check, is when my drum teacher stopped over the house and played my drums. I know what they sound like when I play them, but when he plays them, I can't believe it. I can't believe those sounds are locked up in my kit and somehow I could make the drums sound like that too if I only had the skills.

I guess I denigrate to make myself feel better instead of celebrating the other dude's success. Probably average human nature.
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Old 03-28-2011, 01:48 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
I have this constant compunction to pick apart what I do. So I'm probably always in a state of constant deflation that was probably triggered by ...
I don't buy the Freud bit, Bo :) Of course you're compelled to pick apart your playing. Everyone is their own hardest critic, except for maybe Pretty Purdie. We're like golfers always trying to reduce our handicaps or tennis players trying to improve their first serve percentage or artists, always trying to better capture the essence of a scene.

The Holy Grail is to be capable of fully expressing yourself in perfect harmony with your surroundings and those around you - all the time, on and off the kit. No one quite achieves it (apart from maybe Ryuga v2.0) but everyone shoots for it.

There's always a way forward and the mild frustration of not yet being in that place will always be there, and that's what drives us. **cliche alert** ... so it's all about the journey, no matter what speed we're moving.
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Old 03-28-2011, 02:41 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

I think I'm lucky because I don't believe in talents. I believe in hard work, information, education and time.

When I see a 9 year old kid having amazing technical potential I get motivated. Why? Because I know I could be as good as him or even better in less than 9 years if I just know how to practice. But do I really want to play like him or do I want to play like me? That's where I have to think how to organize my practice sessions. Information is out there (all the books & DVDs, the teachers!), it's up to you to start organizing it and practicing it, living it and breathing it. Like the kid does it.

You can achieve amazing things with 2-3 hours of practice each day if you do it the right way. And you WILL be able to practice that much even if you have a job. It just takes dedication and motivation. My motivation is my band.
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Old 03-28-2011, 02:52 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
You've assumed that I like the way I play now. Fact of the matter is, I have this constant compunction to pick apart what I do. So I'm probably always in a state of constant deflation that was probably triggered by this childhood experience: Mom and Dad drive me to my first gig and it goes great, everybody's happy and I get my first bit amount of money for showing up with some drums, playing a little show and then going home. Then on the way home, dad turns around and says, "You did great son. Don't forget to put out the trash tomorrow morning before you go to school".

Kinda' hard to get full of yourself for long when your parents do those kinds of favors for you ;) So in a way, with always being knocked down a bit, I've turned into this person striving to get better all the time because one day I'll have somebody to put the trash out for me. Oddly enough that hasn't happened yet.
I didn't say 'like', I said 'not hate'.

; )

Oh, I think its a really healthy thing not be be completely in love with one's playing and to be constantly battling some inner demons is a good thing. Like Pol said, thats what keeps us passionate about the instrument.

What I meant was that there comes a time when you sound good on your instrument. Or rather, you have the ability to make your instrument sound nice.

At that point you if you hear someone or something that blows you away, its a lot easier absorb that in a positive way.You gotta be enough of a player to know that you dont want to be him, you want to be you. And yet his playing inspires you to work harder or to try and break down and de-code whatever it was that flipped your bonnet.

Perhaps these comments come from beginners mostly or some type of newbie's, but I, with some 20 years of playing under my belt, still listen to some young cats pull off stuff I've been working on for years without batting an eyelid, and I go "damn" ... and then dont go anywhere near my drums for a couple of days. Its just being human, I think.

Your dad kept it real for you which is great. My dad did too. A little too real for my liking, but real nonetheless.

...

Last edited by aydee; 03-29-2011 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 03-28-2011, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

I think a lot of the negative feedback is in jest but many of us who do work an 8 hour or longer day are either tired or have other obligations that keep us from playing more. Every clinic I have been to the guest talks about the hours put in and how long it took to come up with a certain beat or program. It's not easy. In my case both work and a wish to not subject my neighbors to more drumming than is accepted, and the fact that I'm 62 all play in what my goals are. I play for fun, a hobby, and one where I took a 32 year break. Most people on this forum aren't 32 years old. Where would I be if I had played those 32 years? Who knows. We all have our reason for doing what we do and we are all motivated to differring degrees. I understand when someone says, "well that's it for me." Again some of it is in jest and some is a little discouraging. As for the talent aspect, I do believe that some people are born with a little more ability to succeed at somethings than others. That is not to say practice won't make you better, but all things equal, some of us or them are going to be better than others. It's Just a fact of life.
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Old 03-28-2011, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
That is not to say practice won't make you better, but all things equal, some of us or them are going to be better than others. It's Just a fact of life.
Question for you, GD- I'm just 11 years younger than you so do I understand where you are coming from.

Sometimes when you sit down to play, do your try and work new stuff out? Stuff thats difficult for you to do or which might require creating some new muscle memory and practice? Or do you pretty much play what you play?

...
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Old 03-28-2011, 04:17 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

I constantly work on new things. It takes a while and they are difficult things. Some of the things I pick up at the clinics. For instance sets of triplets using four beats on the snare and two bass drum, then alternating four on a tom or two and 2 bass drum. Then I try to fit them in a song or groove and the seem to fit, but I guess what I'm saying is I don't have 8 hours everyday to practice and thats what it takes. I use to playagolf and would go hit a bucket of balls and that takes some energy. The pros do 1000 balls a day of not more just to get their groove or swing change. Its rough at times. But I don't fool myself thinking Paul McCartney is calling anytime soon.
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Old 03-28-2011, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

When I see some really good drumming, I tell myself that if I practiced that song I too could play it. If I practiced that piece of music, I too could play it. I'm just either not interested or too lazy. When I was younger I used to tell myself that I could never play this or that. Anything is possible with the right amount of effort. Thanks for the reminder Bo.
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Old 03-28-2011, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

Couldn't agree more. Self-talk is everything, a great drummer is not just a master of his instrument but of his mind body and spirit as well.
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

I agree and one of the things that I am also leery of is setting up some false sense of what it means to be a great drummer. I'll never be as fast as this guy, or I'll never be able to do left foot clave, or I'll never be able to learn that grip, or I'll never be able to play open-handed, etc. We as drummers can get caught up in those trips when most jobs don't require that you have certain technical skills that drummers find fascinating.

Abe, I think drummers can also get caught up in development while not realizing that is is the perfection of the basics that get the gig.
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:03 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

Well I'm almost 59 years old and I know for a fact that there are some "licks" that other drummers do that I can never do....due to a left hand injury that I sustained at age 6. So with my loss of grip on the stick and lack of finger dexterity, some things I just cannot do!

But that doesn't come into play when I'm out with the band. For now, I'm content with what I'm doing as I have other things that I'm involved in. Happens when you get old.
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:10 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

Most of the time I don't perceive it as 100% negativity or people truly being down on themselves but more as self deprecating humor. You talk about hanging it up only because it initially appears too difficult to learn but in the end you could if you wanted to. Kinda like Conan O'brien ripping on his show despite its popularity.
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Old 03-28-2011, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

Priority check....I see a pattern developing here..It's like a mental gravitating towards, and idolization of, the 3 brained, multi rhythmic, crazy drumming skills that are beyond most of us. Completely understandable, but don't forget...

This is all at the expense of the feeling you get when you are part of a live group of real people all listening and meshing as a multi person musical strike force. No "I" in team kind of thing.

Chops are great. But drummers do not operate in a bubble. We are the grunts of the band in many ways. We have much more important jobs than soloing. Drum solos are great in the hands of the people who can do them great. But by far my main concern aren't crazy rhythmic soloing abilities (they are on the list though), it's having every other non drumming musician want me on drums. It's all about being in demand, for me anyway. I don't think I could be a (insert incredible chop master here) but I could certainly be a Hal Blaine-ish kind of guy. I'd rather be happy grooving, than happy trying to be a great soloist. There's no interaction during a solo. What fun is that? Like comparing self pleasuring to sex.

I just don't want the chops thing to outshine our real purpose, to elevate the music from behind. You only need to have well developed basic skills to accomplish that.
Great soloing abilities have little to do with working musically with others.

I know of more than a few guitarists who definitely prefer an "in the background" type of personality in their drummer. Someone who isn't over the top, who "knows their place". They have to be the best show in the room kind of thing. If I want to work with them, I try and not grab attention. But it's hard because my groove is sooo deep lol. Big time soloing type guys will rarely be hired by these types of people who need to be the shiznet.
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Old 03-28-2011, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: I don't think this is a rant but....

Well this is good then! It's good to see that it's really just "faux failure" we exhibit, but we carry on anyway. I do it too to an extent, thanks for the reminder that most of you are only kidding. I just wanted to remind everyone that too much of that kind of negative talk about one's abilities is just that - it's too much. You don't have to be the fired-up Amway guy about playing drums where everything is rosy and all, but being bummed out about where you are just makes you a bummer to be around.

And no Pol, I wasn't trying the Freudian thing - that's just the truth.

And oddly enough, the things I've learned how to do, I learned because someone asked me to do it. Country music? Yep. Samba in 7? Yep. But left-foot clave (or in my case, right-foot) ? Nobody ever asked for, so I can't do it. As much as I'd like to solo like Dom Famularo, no one has asked for that yet (I doubt I'd try that one - his enthusiasm for playing is what I'm trying to get to). Sight-reading Broadway show tunes? Yep. I should be shocked with myself because there's so much out there to be able to do, but when I get right down to it, if the music's not calling for it, it's never on display.

That's one of the reasons why I think they should've changed the title of Modern Drummer a long time ago. There ain't nothin' modern happening! There's all kinds of incredible things to play, but the job is still: show up on time, play in time, excite the players and crowd, get check, go home. No offense to Matt Smith or Mike Mangini, but drum solos are still where parts of the audience go to the bathroom or get a hotdog.....;)
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