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  #1  
Old 01-30-2011, 11:45 AM
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Default Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

Im a little confused about something. Aren't drums FOR ANY GENRE, INCLUDING METAL AND -CORE GENRES supposed to have at least a little resonance?
I dont really understand the point of having all the the drums dead. Especially if you have a bunch of toms. What the point of having so many toms if they all sound the same?
WHAT GOING OOONNNNN WIITH THIIIS?!
I sounds like to me people that dont know much about drumsets or nothing at all are getting mixed up with short resonance with no resonance.
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  #2  
Old 01-30-2011, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

Yes all should have some resonance. How much is determined by the application and style you are playing. I like for the drums to resonate more in a live unmiced situation than in a live miced situation.
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  #3  
Old 01-30-2011, 12:08 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blankso View Post
Im a little confused about something. Aren't drums FOR ANY GENRE, INCLUDING METAL AND -CORE GENRES supposed to have at least a little resonance?
I dont really understand the point of having all the the drums dead. Especially if you have a bunch of toms. What the point of having so many toms if they all sound the same?
WHAT GOING OOONNNNN WIITH THIIIS?!
I sounds like to me people that dont know much about drumsets or nothing at all are getting mixed up with short resonance with no resonance.
Nice mini rant, & agreed!

There's an evolution of perception & understanding that's linked to experience. Most players starting out, try to emulate the recorded sounds of their favourite artists, without realizing what actually goes into producing that sound. They commonly don't fully appreciate the part that sustain plays in generating even the shortest of punchy sounds, or the recording techniques used to build a sound from a mostly dead source up. Trying to repeat a sound that's particular to many modern genres, results in tom heads slacker than Paris Hilton's elastic & kick drum spin dryer syndrome.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:27 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
slacker than Paris Hilton's elastic & kick drum spin dryer syndrome.
HHaa....I agree that happens........
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Most players starting out, try to emulate the recorded sounds of their favourite artists, without realizing what actually goes into producing that sound.
Yep, that's how it was for me in the 70s. I didn't know about gates. Also, I didn't realise that others didn't hear the overtones as much as I did from behind the kit or how they get buried in the mix.
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  #6  
Old 01-30-2011, 03:03 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

When I started playing the drums my I had my snare sounding like a cardboard box and my toms were just thuds. That's what my records sounded like. Little did I know back then. A good teacher means everything to a beginning musician. Wish I would have had one. A fellow drummer helped me and reading on the internet.
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Old 01-30-2011, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

There is no "should" with drums. It's whatever you want. My personal opinion on tom muffling is don't do it. I muffle my kick so I am not against muffling for some things, but toms and snare? Not for me.
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

I like my drums to resonant and sing and that's the way they are tuned. A dead drum is no better than a cardboard box in my opinion. Drums that resonant with adequate sustain sound much better live and recorded.

Dennis
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:12 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

We all go through the stages of muffling our drums as we develop.
I certainly did!
Proper tuning and a good ear take time.
Some players never seem to get it.
I learned a long time ago not to comment on the sound of a players drums unless he truly asks for help.
I made the mistake of giving tuning advice when it wasn't wanted just once!
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

Nothing saddens me more than hearing a drummer go around his toms and it sounds like a bunch of cardboard. People, honest, have someone else play your drums and go out front. Then grab a tuning key and bring those things up a turn or so. Take all the tape, moongel, rings, and other stuff off them. Take the sleeping bag out of the kick. (That's the only thing I muffle and it's with a rolled-up T-shirt that just touches the bottom part of the kick batter.) Then go back out front and be amazed. Honest.
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  #11  
Old 01-30-2011, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
There is no "should" with drums. It's whatever you want. My personal opinion on tom muffling is don't do it. I muffle my kick so I am not against muffling for some things, but toms and snare? Not for me.
I agree. I like to muffle my drums to the extreme some would say. I use Remo coated Emperor on my toms and snare and I use these rings that Remo makes for muffling. This creates a really warm sound with lot of attack and sound engineers love it.

As you wrote: there is no "should" with drums. It`s a matter of taste and preferences.
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  #12  
Old 01-30-2011, 05:44 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

I once got two export toms off of eBay. They had Remo Controlled Sounds for batters, and hydraulics on the resonant side. Than about 9 strips of foam muffling on the inside on each hydraulic head.
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

People come on frequently and they ask "How do I make my drums sound like _____'s drums on the _________ album?"

Answer, Find the engineer that recorded the album and he can do the same for you.
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  #14  
Old 01-30-2011, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

I think it's just a matter of what the drummer thinks about the sound. I know when I started my toms sounded like cardboard boxes but as I learned more and I started taking considerations of how they sounded in a band setting they naturaly opened up. I never really muffled my snare or my kick though.
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  #15  
Old 01-30-2011, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

This creates a really warm sound with lot of attack and sound engineers love it.

Engineers like it because they then don't have to do anything with it. They do sound dead because they are dead. If you don't want your toms to sing put a t-shirt in them as well.
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  #16  
Old 01-30-2011, 06:36 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

Personally, I hate any amount of muffling other than what the head[s] (choice) gives...
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  #17  
Old 01-30-2011, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

No wrong or right answer.

I don't turn my drums into cardboard, but I Do do a small amount of muffling.
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  #18  
Old 01-31-2011, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

I dont have a problem with a little muffling either. I sometimes like to mess around with it. Its just that When you make your toms all sound dead, they all sound pretty much or exactly the same. So there would be no point in having more than one tom. Actually there would probably be no point of having a shell. And I get even more confused when the drummer with have a lot of toms and have them all dead.
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  #19  
Old 01-31-2011, 05:56 AM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle View Post
I once got two export toms off of eBay. They had Remo Controlled Sounds for batters, and hydraulics on the resonant side. Than about 9 strips of foam muffling on the inside on each hydraulic head.
I remember this Kyle, those sounded terrible, didn't they also have several pieces of tape on them? I use no muffling on my toms, and i have no muffling [currently] in my bass drum. my snare has a two pieces of electricians tape, that's it.
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  #20  
Old 01-31-2011, 06:35 AM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

You're right, tape on the hydraulics on the outside and foam on the inside.
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  #21  
Old 01-31-2011, 10:27 AM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

For the sake of clarity in this thread, I think it's good to define muffling. There's the obvious mechanical methods, gel, tape, rings, sleeping bags, etc,etc, but also, anything other than clear G1's (or equivalent) top & bottom is muffling. Coated G1's, two ply heads, etc, all muffling. By definition, we all muffle to some degree.
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  #22  
Old 01-31-2011, 03:20 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

I use the rings on my toms at church - all acoustic - no sound man, mic's or amplification.
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Old 01-31-2011, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

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Originally Posted by inneedofgrace View Post
I use the rings on my toms at church - all acoustic - no sound man, mic's or amplification.
The kit at my church had those when I first showed up. They were the first things to go.

The toms were tuned very slack so they barely had any tone anyway, then they had the muffling rings on there. Cardboard box...

I felt pretty good that I got compliments on my tuning after I messed with it for a while. The sound guy/engineer said it sounded much better afterwards. Apparently he backed off a lot of the EQ, gates, etc. I'm not a sound guy, so I don't know exactly what he did, but he liked having an actual tone to mess with to help all the instruments blend better.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

To be honest I think Remo's muffling rings are quite beneficial for someone who needs a quick sound or is struggling with overtones/tuning. Or just likes a warmer sound.

Nothing wrong with that. All up to the drummer, it varies by application. Having a horrible ringing/overtone in the mix and fixing post recording versus having your drums sitting tight in the mix?
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  #25  
Old 02-01-2011, 02:33 AM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

I know what you mean by dead sounding, the toms seem to only have attack:

Like in this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjzIBI3jkKY

...although I have heard other metal drum kits in which the toms sound really full, powerful and punchy.
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:58 AM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
There is no "should" with drums. It's whatever you want. My personal opinion on tom muffling is don't do it. I muffle my kick so I am not against muffling for some things, but toms and snare? Not for me.
Now c'mon Larry, there's a point where it's not only ridiculous, but stupid.

The only drum I muffle is my kick, because it's a very loud drum, and because I don't want that much bass resonance in the wash of my drums. Once I got into far-field sounds, I stopped muffling my toms and snare.

I suppose the sound of a drummer's kit evolves with their education.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:53 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

i have two holes in my kick dum reso, but nothing inside. i have coated ambassadors on all drums including the kick. it's great for an open ringing sound.
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  #28  
Old 02-01-2011, 01:14 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

I play metal, but I tune the heads quite tight for a higher tone so I'd say they resonate a fair bit, but I think a common idea for the sound of metal drums right now is that the toms should sound like the kick. Probably has something to do with heaviness, it is like how some metal guitarists detune to F# or lower...

Also, from a compositional point of view, with something that sonically dense and low end, most of that resonance you get from the toms is lost in the mix and you only hear the attack anyway, this is particularly true with faster styles of death metal.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

The sound of my kick is exactly how I want it. Remo PS3 No additional muffiling with a ported reso. Sounds fantastic.

Only problem is I can't get my Toms to sound somewhat similar. Far too much sustain, too many overtones etc etc. I personally find if my kit sounds good then I tend to play better. Or atleast like moving around the kit. It may sound great to the audience but that isn't enough for me.
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:47 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
People come on frequently and they ask "How do I make my drums sound like _____'s drums on the _________ album?"

Answer, Find the engineer that recorded the album and he can do the same for you.
this is what I think of when folks say Bonham sounds diff. because of his playin... , Keith Moon sounds diff., Phil Rudd is a "Pocket or hitting the sweet spot guy" .. etc.. etc.... ...

When I play along records, I put a cloth on the heads to make it sound like on the records. :)
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:49 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

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Originally Posted by brady View Post
The kit at my church had those when I first showed up. They were the first things to go.

The toms were tuned very slack so they barely had any tone anyway, then they had the muffling rings on there. Cardboard box...

I felt pretty good that I got compliments on my tuning after I messed with it for a while. The sound guy/engineer said it sounded much better afterwards. Apparently he backed off a lot of the EQ, gates, etc. I'm not a sound guy, so I don't know exactly what he did, but he liked having an actual tone to mess with to help all the instruments blend better.
You have a sound guy and mic's. BIG difference.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by inneedofgrace View Post
You have a sound guy and mic's. BIG difference.
Not always. Some sound guys are no more knowledgeable about how to tune and mic a drumkit and get a decent sound out of it than any other non-drummer. It remains for the drummer to meet a sound guy somewhere along the way and be ready to make up for what he might not know. This is especially true in churches, since we're talking about them, but it could happen elsewhere. (Although I submit to you that in the cruel world of entertainment, a sound guy who doesn't know much about micing drums is probably going to sink... fast.)
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  #33  
Old 02-01-2011, 11:27 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorch whammin View Post
Personally, I hate any amount of muffling other than what the head[s] (choice) gives...
Agreed, i don't muffle any of my drums except for the kick.
I like let my drums 'breathe'
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  #34  
Old 02-01-2011, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

Does anybody not muffle their bass drum? Why not?
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:13 AM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

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Does anybody not muffle their bass drum? Why not?
I don't and it's a big ol' 24x17 monster. I run a Remo coated PS3 on there and it sounds great. I also took my sweet time tuning it with the help of a drum dial.

This way I can give it a quick hit for a boomy sound or bury the beater for a shorter attack. Technique, it's a wonderful thing.

I don't knock anyone for using muffling, it's just not necessary for the sound that I want. Wonky, thuddy sounding toms really do hurt my heart though. I'm all for personal preference but that just bothers me on a personal level.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

I was going to start a thread like this after seeing some bands on Saturday. Every single one of them tuned to a plastic-sounding THUD on every drum. No tone...the 12" toms sounded no different than the 14" or 16" toms on their kits...couldn't hear a difference. Every time I walk into Guitar Center, every kit is tuned this way, also. Do some drummers get the impression that drums sound bigger or deeper, if they're tuned so loosely that the tension rods are rattling around?

Over time, I've started tuning higher and higher, and came to realize that your drums sound bigger, deeper, and more present this way. I don't muffle anything except for the batter head on the kick drum (very little.)

Lately I've been tuning the reso heads higher than the batters...both up higher than I hear most people doing, and they sound big and full from anywhere in the room, with a clear note and a nice, pretty sustain.

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only guy in town that likes how this sounds?
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Old 02-02-2011, 01:07 AM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

I'm not much on drums that have no tone or depth and sound dead or thuddy. I like them to sing out a bit. The only drums I muffle now are my bass drum, (very light on both the batter and reso), and my snare...just enough so it doesn't ring for too long.

I like Bob's reply and went through this as well.

Quote:
We all go through the stages of muffling our drums as we develop.
I certainly did!
Proper tuning and a good ear take time.
Some players never seem to get it.
I learned a long time ago not to comment on the sound of a players drums unless he truly asks for help.
I made the mistake of giving tuning advice when it wasn't wanted just once!
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  #38  
Old 02-02-2011, 01:18 AM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
I was going to start a thread like this after seeing some bands on Saturday. Every single one of them tuned to a plastic-sounding THUD on every drum. No tone...the 12" toms sounded no different than the 14" or 16" toms on their kits...couldn't hear a difference. Every time I walk into Guitar Center, every kit is tuned this way, also. Do some drummers get the impression that drums sound bigger or deeper, if they're tuned so loosely that the tension rods are rattling around?

Over time, I've started tuning higher and higher, and came to realize that your drums sound bigger, deeper, and more present this way. I don't muffle anything except for the batter head on the kick drum (very little.)

Lately I've been tuning the reso heads higher than the batters...both up higher than I hear most people doing, and they sound big and full from anywhere in the room, with a clear note and a nice, pretty sustain.

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only guy in town that likes how this sounds?
I mirror your thoughts to a "T".

I go a full octave higher on the reso, to get like you said, a clear note and a nice sustain. I can't believe how low my floor tom sounds on my recordings when I know how tight the heads are. I'm thinking of going even tighter.

The real tone of your kit happens 10 to 15 feet away where the crest of the soundwaves are. A 60 hz wave is like 20 feet long if I have my facts straight, so the drummer at the drumset is in the worst position to determine what the kit sounds like where it counts, in the audience. I found that muffling toms, even with a 1/2 of moongel near the rim, seriously sucks life from the drum as heard from the audience. Sure it sounds good when you're right on top of the drum, but you just lost that tone right where you want it, where all those hot women are dancing.

So what I'm saying is...

If you take the muffling off the toms, you will get laid more lol.
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Old 02-02-2011, 01:21 AM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

my kick drum is super kick head it has a built in dead ringer that is perfect for me the toms have emperor coated batters and ambassador ebony res on the bottoms i use a small amount of jell pads. i think the most important thing is proper tuning to eliminate over tones
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Old 02-02-2011, 01:59 AM
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Default Re: Dead sounding drum sets. Good? Bad?

Speaking for myself, I'm not too partial to how the drums sound provided they're tuned properly. You get more dead/thud sounds out of faster music (i.e. modern day metal).

That being said, I recall when I first got my kit, I swapped out the heads with the standard coated Emps over coated Ambs which were great, however in the room (surrounded by stucco) that I play in they resonated too much; there was kind of an over-bleed in the sounds. I had a lot of difficulty being able to hear each sound, so I couldn't tell if I was late or early in my sticking. I generally go towards a more dead sound for my toms (I'm using coated Pins over coated Ambs now) but I love an upwards pitch bend in my toms so that's my prerequisite when it comes to my drums.
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