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Old 01-28-2011, 07:21 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Paul Motian interview

Here are a few excerpts from a great 1996 Paul Motian interview by New York drummer Chuck Braman.

You can read the complete piece on Chuck's site, or on my blog:
part 1 | part 2 | part 3 | part 4 | part 5

NOT THINKING DRUMSET:
Quote:
Chuck: What would you say is the central concept of how you approach the drums, that would distinguish you from everyone else?

Paul: Playing the drums like it's not really drums, it's just an instrument that's an extension of you. The playing that's coming out of me is coming from the music that I'm hearing, the people that I'm playing with, the music that I'm playing on the drums.

Chuck: I seem to remember you saying at a clinic that you gave at Pittsburgh that I went to, that every time you sit down you try to approach the drums as though you were playing them for the first time. Is my memory correct?

Paul: What you said is exactly right. Because sometimes I'm still playing stuff on the drumset that I've never played before, because I'm not thinking drumset, I'm not thinking of cymbals and drums. Hopefully, what's coming out is an extension of me and what's inside me. Sometimes I'm lucky my hands and arms and feet don't get tangled up within one another! Because I'm not thinking technique, and I'm not thinking right hand, left hand, or right foot, left foot (laughs), or tom-tom or snare or whatever. A lot of times my eyes are closed and I'm just playing. I know in my head where the instrument is, all the different parts of the instrument. And I just go ahead and play, and whatever ideas are in my head, hopefully they'll come out.

I remember a conversation I had with Red Garland, the piano player who played with Miles. He said if you hear the idea in your head, somehow you'll get it out on your instrument, whether you have the technique for it or not. And I always believed that, man. Maybe it will be a little sloppy at times. (laughs) But if you hear that s___, it will come out. And, as recently as this record date I just did last week, we were playing some fours and eights, and I played some stuff that I never heard before. There are certain patterns and certain ideas that I've been playing over the years that I may fall back on…
ORCHESTRATING:
Quote:
Chuck: Another thing that strikes me about your playing is the way, when you're playing time, that you'll alternate different combinations of the components of your drum kit in order to change the texture of your sound. No other drummers I've ever heard use texture as an element of musical interest the way you do. For example, you'll be keeping time, and then all of a sudden for a few beats you might leave out the ride cymbal. And it will have the effect of, for example, a painting where suddenly the backdrop changes, while the foreground stays the same. It will have a very dramatic effect, and then you'll bring it back in and that creates another effect…

Paul: I'm sure you've heard the recording of Baby Dodds. That ten-inch record where he's playing and demonstrating different beats and stuff? Check it out man. He's playing a solo, and leaves out the bass drum, and then he brings it in. When he brings it in, that s___ takes off like a motherf____. Then he takes it out. That's important, that s___. That really influenced me.

Chuck: Something else that reminded me of you on that recording was that his march beat is very similar to your march beat.
Paul: Well, I listen to him, man, I still listen to him. He was great. I wish I knew about him back when he was around. He was still around in the fifties, man. But I wasn't aware of him that much.

Look at Art Blakey, sometimes he's playing along, and all of a sudden, maybe at the bridge or in the top of the tune he hits a cymbal WHAM!, really hard, and then he chokes it. That's beautiful, man. Art Blakey was a m_______, man, I appreciate him more now than I did back then. I heard him at Birdland when he had his first band with Horace Silver, and Lou Donaldson, Hark Mobley, Clifford Brown, and Kenny Dorham, man, that shit, he was smokin' boy! How old was Art Blakey then, thirty maybe. He plays so f____ great. That's some great music. I ain't heard no drummers today like that. Well, I can't say that, I'm not out there, I don't hear the cats, maybe there's some people out there.
TIPS AND COMMENTS:
Quote:
Chuck: Did any of the musicians you worked with ever offer you any advice or make musical comments that struck you as interesting?

Paul: I remember Monk asked me to sing him my ride beat. He said, "Sing me what you're playing on the cymbal." So I sang, "ding DING-a ding, DING-a ding, DING-a ding, DING-a ding." He said, "The next time you play, play 'ding din GA-ding, din GA-ding, din GA-ding'." So that's what I did. And that helped my feel and the way I felt, the way my time is my beat. That helped me grow in how I play time. To try to think of all the notes, man, all the notes that you're playing on the cymbal, and the quality of the notes.

One time Lennie Tristano said something to me about what he heard in my sound. He wasn't suggesting anything to me. He just said, "Paul, when we play fours, your fours sound like a drunk falling down a flight of stairs!" (laughs) So, for me, I took that as a compliment, and the next time I took my fours I tried to think as if I was a drunk falling down the stairs, and tried to improve what I did the time before, you know?
THINKING ABOUT IT:
Quote:
Chuck: When you play a roll, you don't usually play it with both sticks on the same drum at the same time. You'll have one stick on one drum, and one stick on another, or you'll be moving around the whole drumset, distributing the strokes between the cymbals, the drums, the hi-hat. I don't know any other drummer who does that.

Paul: I don't know! (laughs) I know that I do that, but I don't know why. I guess that when I've done it, what happened I thought was good and I liked the sound.

Chuck: Most people focus on one component at a time. But you're always blending different parts of the drumset into one sound.

Paul: Well, that's nice, that's nice! (laughs) See, I didn't really know that, man, that's interesting. I know that I do that, but I never thought about it. I wouldn't consciously say to myself, "OK, now I want to play a roll on two different drums." That thought would never come to me. That's automatic. That just comes out. I mean, think of a piano player. A piano player's playing, he's not thinking "I'm going to play a…" I mean there's no time to think of that s___ beforehand, right? If a piano player thought, "Well, now I'm going to play this chord, now I'm going to play that chord, now I'm going to play this run," f___ it, that s___ past, it's gone already. There's not time to think about that s___.The same thing with the drums, man. If I started thinking about that before I played it, I'd be behind! (laughs) People'd be steppin' all over my ass, man! S___! (laughs)

Chuck: I'd like to ask you something about your ballad playing. Most drummers during ballads are just doing timekeeping, but there's another element that you add to ballads that they don't even think about, and that's the way you alternate different tone colors and sounds. For example, you might be doing a roll on your rivet cymbal. Then you'll let it ring for a moment. Then there might be two beats of silence, then you might play on the snare drum for a couple measures. Then you might start playing a time-keeping pattern on the ride cymbal. Every time you change the sound and the tone color, it creates a dramatic musical effect, and that's something you did that no one else has done.

Paul: That relates to what I was saying before about my approach to the drums, trying to think musically, trying to make sense out of what I'm doing and trying to relate it to what else is happening.

If you had to sit down, you'd probably have to be a computer if you tried to put down on paper or in words what is actually going on during a piece of music. You'd probably fill twenty f____ volumes, it'd be an encyclopedia, just from one tune, if you start actually putting down exactly what thoughts are happening… you know what I mean? It's not so simple. Sometimes the simpler it sounds the more complicated the s___ is.
PLAYING FREE:
Quote:
Chuck: What do you latch on to, though? For example, if you're playing time, you know how the beat's being subdivided, you know what the vocabulary is, you know you can move this here, you can leave this out. But if you're playing completely free, it's a completely blank slate. What do you latch on to that's logical to determine what you play?

Paul: You're latching on to what you're hearing, what the other people are playing, what you're playing, what you started out playing, what melody is going on in your head, everything. You just latch on to whatever you can latch on to, man. And hopefully there's plenty of things to latch on to.

Chuck: When I listen to you play free, I can tell you obviously find clear ideas to play and I can follow your thinking. But some other drummer playing in the same situation might say, "This music sounds good, but what in the world could I ever play to it?"

Paul: Well, thank god I don't never think about that. I don't think like that. I just let it happen. I just go by what I hear and I just let it happen.

Chuck: So you're not self-conscious.

Paul: No. I'm acting on what I'm hearing and what I'm doing.

Chuck: You have a clear idea of what you should do and shouldn't do.

Paul: It's not like what I should do or shouldn't do, it's what I do. And I have enough faith and confidence in myself and what I do that it's right. If I start thinking about what I should do and I shouldn't do, it would suck. It's like the story Jimmy Garrison told me about the centipede. He's walking along on the branch groovin', and then some f_____ monkey looks at him and says "Hey, man, look at how you got all them legs, man, how do you know which leg to put down first?" And as soon as he says that the m_________ trips and falls off the tree. It's the same thing. You can't stop to think about that s___.

Once when I was playing with Charlie Haden, I told him that I couldn't really get with the music, I can't find what it is that I should do, whether I should play time or I play free. And Charlie said to me, "well, you're the one that can do it and whatever you do, you be in control, you do what you think is right, I'm going to take it from what you're doing." In other words, instead of me thinking about what I should do or what I shouldn't do, I should just do, and everything will be O.K. And that's what happened. When I was thinking about what I should do and what I shouldn't do, s___ wasn't happening. Wasn't happening, man. After I talked to Charlie and he said to me whatever I do is O.K., and I should be in control, then I felt free to do what I wanted to do. And as soon as I did that, everything fell into place. S___ was swinging like a m_________.
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Old 01-28-2011, 09:48 PM
aydee aydee is offline
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Default Re: Paul Motian interview

...

Thanks Todd. Fantastic insight into one of the greatest jazz drummers of our time. ( And greatly underrated, I'm might add... )

Its interesting that he sees himself kinda of the way always saw him, which was someone who has the ability to express himself incredibly articulately and with great lyricism.

I'm a huge huge fan, and I too believe that Paul, like only a handful others, can see what on the other side of the mountain. That is when your mind, heart, hands, ears, technique, feeling, spirit, all of it is so totally aligned to take on and respond to each musical moment and make it magical.

Each time he sits down on the drums, its childlike and feels like the first time. Wow, therein lies the secret of the universe!

...
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Old 01-29-2011, 06:13 PM
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Swiss Matthias Swiss Matthias is offline
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Default Re: Paul Motian interview

Thanks, very interesting!

One thing is a bit annoying to me though. The interviewer always says stuff like "normally drummers do this, but you do that", or "I've never heard drummers do what you did there".

Am I missing something, or is the interviewer exaggerating quite a bit? I don't think Paul
Motian is that special, although his playing is unique of course.
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Old 01-29-2011, 08:11 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Paul Motian interview

He's about as special as drummers get, though he advanced the instrument more musically than he did technically, you know? It may be exaggerating to say that no other drummers do some of the things he does, but it seems like the interviewer did his homework- maybe he can support that way of putting it. He did qualify it with "I haven't heard", so maybe that's his way of talking about his impression rather than historical fact.
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Old 01-30-2011, 02:29 AM
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Default Re: Paul Motian interview

Thanks again, Todd. Another great interview. There should be a Todd's Treasure Trove section in this forum :)
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Old 01-30-2011, 02:55 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Ha, well, that would be my blog- I'm dumping a ton of stuff in there right now, both my original things and favorite things from around the net. But thanks Pol- just doing my part to make sure the good stuff gets spread around along with all the stick-twirling goo.
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Ha, well, that would be my blog- I'm dumping a ton of stuff in there right now, both my original things and favorite things from around the net. But thanks Pol- just doing my part to make sure the good stuff gets spread around along with all the stick-twirling goo.
i think your blog is great. i'm a very reluctant kind of person getting into all these things, and would never do what you're doing, just because it's so industrious, perhaps, or... maybe it's something i'll begin soon, having the feeling like i'm catching the bug a little bit...

but someone has to document, and i think it's awesome-i'm older than you but never heard of motian(i'm culturally deprived), but still can tell by the interview i want to hear him and absorb all this history that came before us. i'm not a jazzer, but at this point in my life, that makes no difference whatsoever. i could(& should) become a student of jazz and i'd be just as happy as doing any other musical form.

with your photography, travel, even recipes, it's really cool., a renaissance man....but i did see thomas lang twirling his sticks with such ridiculous authority that i almost considered taking it up myself...
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Old 01-30-2011, 06:36 AM
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Default Re: Paul Motian interview

Thanks for the post. Very enlightening.

I got into Bill Evans a few years back and really dug Motian's style; even if I couldn't identify exactly what he was doing at the time. This is a great insight. Thanks again.
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Old 01-30-2011, 06:51 AM
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Default Re: Paul Motian interview

If I remember correctly, I think that ding din GA-ding, din GA-ding, din GA-ding pattern is what Monk admired about Shadow Wilson's ride feel. You can hear that note emphasis in Shadow's playing on the Monk/Coltrane Carnegie Hall CD.
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Old 01-30-2011, 08:30 AM
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Yes, I like the blog. Another classic quote from the Paul M interview on there:

Quote:
Chuck: You have a very unique approach to playing rock-based rhythms, where you sometimes imply half-time and double-time by doubling or halving the placement of your backbeat, and occasionally you even displace those backbeats ahead or behind a beat. It completely opens up that kind of music, and I've never heard any other drummer approach those rhythms quite that way.

Paul: Again, it's just what I was saying before. It's just music, man. I'm not thinking about backbeat, rock, or whatever. I'm thinking music. There's a specific tempo that's stated in the very beginning, and that's already there. I don't have to force it on to everybody else and myself included. I don't have to enforce it. It's happening already. I don't have to do [expletive]. I could have just stayed there and not played a [expletive] note. They're playing along, they're playing that speed, you know?

And so, what I'm doing is trying to add some kind of music to that. I mean, whether the backbeat comes on the backbeat, or the frontbeat, or the sidebeat, or what-the-[expletive]-ever-beat! It don't matter, man, but it should be some kind of music there. It should satisfy me. Sometimes I wonder if it's a drag for the other musicians, what I'm doing, maybe I'm not as supportive of them as I should be. But [expletive] it, it's too bad then, you know what I mean? (laughs) They're out there.
Are there any audio or video examples online of what Chuck was asking about?
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Are there any audio or video examples online of what Chuck was asking about?
I'm glad you like it, and thanks for visiting it! The big tune I think he might be talking about is called The Rich & The Poor, from Keith Jarrett's Treasure Island. His back beats on that are big- I think he's catching them with both hands. There's another one on Jarrett's Birth, which has Charlie Haden running his bass through a wah-wah pedal.

Quote:
I don't have to do [expletive].
This has been an really valuable piece of wisdom for me, but it's very hard to follow. I hadn't read this interview in like ten years, but that stuck with me.
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by iwantmemoney View Post
i think your blog is great. i'm a very reluctant kind of person getting into all these things, and would never do what you're doing, just because it's so industrious, perhaps, or... maybe it's something i'll begin soon, having the feeling like i'm catching the bug a little bit...
Thanks for the kind words, I really appreciate it! You should start writing- blogger has become really idiot-proof (thank God) and is easy to deal with. Just do what I do and link to things you like and write as little as possible. So yeah, go man! BTW I've refined that pozole recipe a little bit since I posted it way back- it might be time for an update. I'll let you know...
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Old 01-30-2011, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
I'm glad you like it, and thanks for visiting it! The big tune I think he might be talking about is called The Rich & The Poor, from Keith Jarrett's Treasure Island. His back beats on that are big- I think he's catching them with both hands. There's another one on Jarrett's Birth, which has Charlie Haden running his bass through a wah-wah pedal.
Ta Todd. Found one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM4AJUW9nqU ... 7/8 with crazy accents. Cool acid rock rhythm section. Before the saxes came in I was thinking Hendrix.


Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
This has been an really valuable piece of wisdom for me, but it's very hard to follow. I hadn't read this interview in like ten years, but that stuck with me.
I've noticed is that when I'm in good form it seems I can leave notes out almost whenever I feel like it and the groove will remain intact. I'm figuring that good players can do this with far more ease, and especially the greats like PM can do it at any time without needing to be in top form.

It seems that PM has total confidence and if he's playing with musicians who embrace the unexpected - he can play whatever he likes, knowing it will be right. at least on an emotional level. He's an inspiring guy.
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Old 01-30-2011, 07:02 PM
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i would be quoting quotes within quotes if i pushed "quote", so forget it. listened to mortgage...it sounds like they're keeping up the mortgage payments...it was like an acid flashback. gotta check out more! (and the pozole)...
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Old 01-30-2011, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Ta Todd. Found one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM4AJUW9nqU ... 7/8 with crazy accents. Cool acid rock rhythm section. Before the saxes came in I was thinking Hendrix.
That's the one! I love that thing. Here's another, behind Keith's soprano solo.

Here's The Rich & The Poor, on Amazon anyway.

Quote:
I've noticed is that when I'm in good form it seems I can leave notes out almost whenever I feel like it and the groove will remain intact. I'm figuring that good players can do this with far more ease, and especially the greats like PM can do it at any time without needing to be in top form.
I just have remind myself sometimes that I don't need to be the sole one making things happen- just remembering that line changes my attitude a little bit, and helps me hang back and let things unfold.
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:58 PM
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He's about as special as drummers get, though he advanced the instrument more musically than he did technically, you know?
I never mentioned anything like technical vs. musical, did I? I'm aware of the fact that drummers
who are special separate themselves in a musical manner, in their language as a whole, which
may include technical, conceptual, sonical etc. aspects altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
It may be exaggerating to say that no other drummers do some of the things he does, but it seems like the interviewer did his homework- maybe he can support that way of putting it. He did qualify it with "I haven't heard", so maybe that's his way of talking about his impression rather than historical fact.
Alright.

In general, I can say for me personally listening to Paul Motian kind of needs a "forewarned" ear.
The interviewer is of course right in that Paul has a very unique voice, which I have to get a bit
accustomed to. If I'm not in the right mood so to speak, I may expect things I like from other players
I enjoy listening to, and get disappointed when I hear Paul stepping out of the line.

It's like holding a glass of dark fluid and starting to drink with the expection of tasting
coca cola, but then it turns out to be something completely different - which I may like,
but not now that my sensory organs are "tuned" to coca cola, if you know what I mean.

Or, differently, musicians like Paul Motian must be enjoyed with a kind of blank mindset,
and few expectations. Because, as I understand his words in the interview, that's the way
he himself tends to approach playing drums.
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
In general, I can say for me personally listening to Paul Motian kind of needs a "forewarned" ear. The interviewer is of course right in that Paul has a very unique voice, which I have to get a bit accustomed to.
Yep, he seems to operate almost on a completely different value system- there's certainly none of the polish we usually associate with good drummers.
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:48 PM
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That's the one! I love that thing. Here's another, behind Keith's soprano solo.

Here's The Rich & The Poor, on Amazon anyway.
That's interesting, PM's playing in that free time thing reminded me a lot of Jack D in Tagore and Keith responded the same way by playing tambourine. Awesome texturing.

Quote:
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I just have remind myself sometimes that I don't need to be the sole one making things happen- just remembering that line changes my attitude a little bit, and helps me hang back and let things unfold.
It's funny the things that stay with you. I was a mad keen Osibisa fan when I was young and then I read a book talking about how Ginger Baker and Art Blakey tend to Africanise the rhythms they play. For some reason it stuck so, if I am unsure what to do, I think "Africa" to get on track.

Having said that, PM's "I don't have to play s___" is a compelling sentiment!
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