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  #721  
Old 10-11-2014, 10:08 PM
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Default Re: Unpopular Drumming Opinion Thread

Does your opinion relate to the time keeping side of things (you think the standard has dropped since then) or that post classic rock drummers have played in a style too no-frills and simple for your taste?
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  #722  
Old 10-13-2014, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TapTailor View Post
Does your opinion relate to the time keeping side of things (you think the standard has dropped since then) or that post classic rock drummers have played in a style too no-frills and simple for your taste?
I think what he means is there may be a lack of individuality from a lot of today's conveyor belt drum school clones.
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  #723  
Old 10-13-2014, 12:19 PM
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The best of the classic rock drummers were half finished jazz drummers.
Wow, that's unpopular for sure - great job! :)
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  #724  
Old 10-13-2014, 04:49 PM
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Unpopular bit: To those who say wraps (finish plies/whatever you want to call a sheet of plastic) don't affect the resonance of a highly resonant drum, go & wrap an acoustic guitar & see what happens :)

I'll get my coat --------
Hey, perhaps it snot so profound if you need to use a different instrument as an example but what about lacquers?

My unpopular opinion - I've grown tired of some characters here. It's probably time for a holiday. Fthhbjioigddx
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  #725  
Old 10-13-2014, 05:42 PM
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Hey, perhaps it snot so profound if you need to use a different instrument as an example but what about lacquers?

My unpopular opinion - I've grown tired of some characters here. It's probably time for a holiday. Fthhbjioigddx
I just used the acoustic guitar as an exaggerated example of the principal. The affect on a drum, even a highly resonant drum, is less than the example I gave. Lacquers - same applies directly proportional to how resonant the shell is & how thick the lacquer is (i.e. very thick lacquer/poly coat on a very thin shell = noticeable difference. Thin coat of lacquer on a thick shell = little to no noticeable affect)

BTW, as you placed your closing thought in the same post as a reply to me, am I to take anything from that? :(
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  #726  
Old 10-14-2014, 11:59 AM
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I just used the acoustic guitar as an exaggerated example of the principal. The affect on a drum, even a highly resonant drum, is less than the example I gave. Lacquers - same applies directly proportional to how resonant the shell is & how thick the lacquer is (i.e. very thick lacquer/poly coat on a very thin shell = noticeable difference. Thin coat of lacquer on a thick shell = little to no noticeable affect)

BTW, as you placed your closing thought in the same post as a reply to me, am I to take anything from that? :(
I always respect your input into drums and the sound they make. As for acoustic guitars, a friend of mine covered a spanish guitar with Fablon and it didn't really change the sound at all.. It would seem most of the sound is pure amplification by the body and is heard through the sound hole.

Anyway, you are the guy with the experience, I was led to believe a massive proportion of the sound of a drum is made by the two heads resonating, and that the shell merely amplifies this and that the timber used has a very limited effect on the sound. If so surely having a wrap on a drum would have little or no effect on the sound? What do you think?
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  #727  
Old 10-15-2014, 06:58 PM
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I think what he means is there may be a lack of individuality from a lot of today's conveyor belt drum school clones.
If so, fair enough I can see where he's coming from, thanks for clearing that one up mikel.

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Wow, that's unpopular for sure - great job! :)
Yep I can see that one mate. I'm not actually making a criticism of anybody, that's not really my game, music is subjective and all that!
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  #728  
Old 10-16-2014, 10:54 AM
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I hate and detest Zildjian Ks. I have heard better sounding dustbin lids.

How about that then?
+1 Absolutely no shimmer or wisp to them at all. I think this is probably why lots of people like them, but I like bright wispy cymbals. Give me some A customs or AAX over them any day.
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  #729  
Old 10-16-2014, 11:22 AM
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I always respect your input into drums and the sound they make. As for acoustic guitars, a friend of mine covered a spanish guitar with Fablon and it didn't really change the sound at all.. It would seem most of the sound is pure amplification by the body and is heard through the sound hole.

Anyway, you are the guy with the experience, I was led to believe a massive proportion of the sound of a drum is made by the two heads resonating, and that the shell merely amplifies this and that the timber used has a very limited effect on the sound. If so surely having a wrap on a drum would have little or no effect on the sound? What do you think?
A proper reply would be way too long for this thread, but I'll attempt a truncated version.

I can assure you that if you put a drum wrap on a good quality acoustic guitar, you would hear a difference, & a guitarist would certainly hear a difference. More on acoustic guitars later.

Almost all the drum's sound comes from the heads, but that sound is shaped substantially by the shell, both because of it's dimensions but also because of it's construction, including the chosen wood species. That said, the wood species makes a bigger difference the more resonant the shell/drum design is. Let's take extremes as an example. 1/2" thick circa 12 ply shells with standard shell hardware - wood species makes almost no difference apart from internal finish/hardness. Compare that to 1/4" thick solid shell with low mass shell hardware - wood species makes a noticeable difference. Differences in wood species will always be more apparent the more resonant the drum design is, & how much of the wood's original structure remains intact. If you cut wood up into thin sheets, cover it in glue, compress the crap out of it under high heat, then hang boat anchor hardware off it, the differences in species tone are greatly diminished. Additionally, differences in characteristics are more apparent between wood species that are significantly different tonally. Example: differences between birch & oak can be quite subtle, but the difference between sepele & purple heart, or true mahogany & ebony jumps out & hits you in the face.

Back to acoustic guitars. Speak to any quality luthier, or acoustic guitar player of note, & you'll soon discover just how important wood species is to this instrument, & other stringed wooden acoustic instruments too. The way those instruments resonate is as much to do with resonance of the body as it is stiffness, shape, etc.

Now for the UNPOPULAR element to my post; Drums are the only acoustic instrument where ply is used in anything other than student/budget grade instruments. All other wooden acoustic instruments of quality are constructed from solid wood in some form. There's reasons for that, & significant caveats too.

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Yep I can see that one mate. I'm not actually making a criticism of anybody, that's not really my game, music is subjective and all that!
Agreed, & excepted. I liked your post in the context of stating an unpopular opinion, but of course, outside of this thread context, I mostly disagree with your thoughts on this. In terms of technical proficiency, or if music making was a measurable ability competition, your statement may have some merit, but outside of that, I think you're wrong.
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  #730  
Old 10-16-2014, 11:55 AM
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Default Re: Unpopular Drumming Opinion Thread

One experiment you can do with an acoustic guitar is to play it away from the body and then tightly tucked in. It helps to have somebody else listening but it really does significantly change the way it sounds.
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  #731  
Old 10-16-2014, 12:56 PM
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Agreed, & excepted. I liked your post in the context of stating an unpopular opinion, but of course, outside of this thread context, I mostly disagree with your thoughts on this. In terms of technical proficiency, or if music making was a measurable ability competition, your statement may have some merit, but outside of that, I think you're wrong.
You're making the assumption that I view this with a technically competitive agenda. I see no competition in music, nor do I care only for players with a certain level of technical facility on the instrument. For me, good music is good music regardless of its source.

I'm talking in terms of the mastery of space, groove, time and tension that the great bop players had.

I suppose I could argue forever with people about this, because I understand what its like to have heroes. I just posted in here because the theme appeared blunt and humorous. I do not want to get into heated debate about something so trivial. Still I respect your personal opinion and you can certainly think I'm wrong. I may as well explain my personal opinion though, as it's been misinterpreted.

For me none of those rockers took songs to the places that your Philly Joe's or Mel Lewis's could. Taste, inventiveness and consideration - true composition. Nothing to do with things so stale and irrelevant as technical proficiency or competition. Not how many notes are played or how the bloke holds his sticks. Groove that was innate, based on the heartbeat of Africa. Ridiculously infectious rhythms that told more than one story.

For me, if you line up those guys in a studio or live environment, given time to prepare, the boppers will give the band and audience a better feeling every time. I feel as though the sounds they produce are simply more natural and comfortable. These guys were working musicians, legends of the trade who I believe deserve my respect.

I'm saying this in the good nature of the thread though, I wouldn't preach this waffle as the gospel truth or consider myself 'right' over any one else.. So any one who wants to have a go, I wouldn't bother as I don't correspond with negative people or lames.
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  #732  
Old 10-16-2014, 03:09 PM
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You're making the assumption that I view this with a technically competitive agenda. I see no competition in music, nor do I care only for players with a certain level of technical facility on the instrument. For me, good music is good music regardless of its source.

I'm talking in terms of the mastery of space, groove, time and tension that the great bop players had.

I suppose I could argue forever with people about this, because I understand what its like to have heroes. I just posted in here because the theme appeared blunt and humorous. I do not want to get into heated debate about something so trivial. Still I respect your personal opinion and you can certainly think I'm wrong. I may as well explain my personal opinion though, as it's been misinterpreted.

For me none of those rockers took songs to the places that your Philly Joe's or Mel Lewis's could. Taste, inventiveness and consideration - true composition. Nothing to do with things so stale and irrelevant as technical proficiency or competition. Not how many notes are played or how the bloke holds his sticks. Groove that was innate, based on the heartbeat of Africa. Ridiculously infectious rhythms that told more than one story.

For me, if you line up those guys in a studio or live environment, given time to prepare, the boppers will give the band and audience a better feeling every time. I feel as though the sounds they produce are simply more natural and comfortable. These guys were working musicians, legends of the trade who I believe deserve my respect.

I'm saying this in the good nature of the thread though, I wouldn't preach this waffle as the gospel truth or consider myself 'right' over any one else.. So any one who wants to have a go, I wouldn't bother as I don't correspond with negative people or lames.
Ok, point taken. I selected one aspect of playing you might have been referring to, & I was wrong. Comparison is frequently made on that level however, so I gravitated towards it.

The terms you use to describe why those jazz players deserve your respect & praise, can equally be applied to some rock drummers, but of course, within the context of that genre.

I get your statement being appropriately blunt & humorous in the context of the thread too, & indeed appreciated it delivered as intended. I can assure you I'm not coming from a direction skewed by hero worship of any kind.

All that aside, I do hope you're not classifying me as either inherently negative or lame, simply on the basis I'm replying to your post & not wholly agreeing with you ;)
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  #733  
Old 10-16-2014, 03:45 PM
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All that aside, I do hope you're not classifying me as either inherently negative or lame, simply on the basis I'm replying to your post & not wholly agreeing with you ;)
I don't understand why you have to have to underline a positive and interesting message with passive aggressiveness.

'Any one who wants to have a go' was my description of what I would consider lame negativity in a forum member. It means I want to avoid conversation with someone who is going to berate/talk rubbish to me, based on a simple opinion. What you've done is twist my statement, to portray me as someone who cannot accept any less than full agreement with a personal point. I intend to converse with other like-minded people on here so don't appreciate being painted as a nutter.. Maybe you're about snipey comments and all that but I'm not playing, not what I'm here for. I don't know anything about you so shouldn't speak further, best to just leave it at that and move on, cheers.

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Originally Posted by copperco View Post
I hate and detest Zildjian Ks. I have heard better sounding dustbin lids.

How about that then?
I became disillusioned big time when i first got to play K customs - Agree that some are indeed bin lid-ish to me too!
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  #734  
Old 10-16-2014, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
A proper reply would be way too long for this thread, but I'll attempt a truncated version.

I can assure you that if you put a drum wrap on a good quality acoustic guitar, you would hear a difference, & a guitarist would certainly hear a difference. More on acoustic guitars later.

Almost all the drum's sound comes from the heads, but that sound is shaped substantially by the shell, both because of it's dimensions but also because of it's construction, including the chosen wood species. That said, the wood species makes a bigger difference the more resonant the shell/drum design is. Let's take extremes as an example. 1/2" thick circa 12 ply shells with standard shell hardware - wood species makes almost no difference apart from internal finish/hardness. Compare that to 1/4" thick solid shell with low mass shell hardware - wood species makes a noticeable difference. Differences in wood species will always be more apparent the more resonant the drum design is, & how much of the wood's original structure remains intact. If you cut wood up into thin sheets, cover it in glue, compress the crap out of it under high heat, then hang boat anchor hardware off it, the differences in species tone are greatly diminished. Additionally, differences in characteristics are more apparent between wood species that are significantly different tonally. Example: differences between birch & oak can be quite subtle, but the difference between sepele & purple heart, or true mahogany & ebony jumps out & hits you in the face.

Back to acoustic guitars. Speak to any quality luthier, or acoustic guitar player of note, & you'll soon discover just how important wood species is to this instrument, & other stringed wooden acoustic instruments too. The way those instruments resonate is as much to do with resonance of the body as it is stiffness, shape, etc.

Now for the UNPOPULAR element to my post; Drums are the only acoustic instrument where ply is used in anything other than student/budget grade instruments. All other wooden acoustic instruments of quality are constructed from solid wood in some form. There's reasons for that, & significant caveats too.

Agreed, & excepted. I liked your post in the context of stating an unpopular opinion, but of course, outside of this thread context, I mostly disagree with your thoughts on this. In terms of technical proficiency, or if music making was a measurable ability competition, your statement may have some merit, but outside of that, I think you're wrong.
Thanks for taking time and explaining, I like people who are passionate about what they do.

I still cant tell the difference between woods used in drum manufacture though. If I did a blind test and I was forced to make a distinction between three different shells I would be scratching to hear discernible change in sound.

I must be cloth eared. I have played different kits in a drum shop and been unable to differentiate the top of the range kit from the mid range without looking at the price tag. Doh.
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  #735  
Old 10-16-2014, 04:32 PM
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I don't understand why you have to have to underline a positive and interesting message with passive aggressiveness.

'Any one who wants to have a go' was my description of what I would consider lame negativity in a forum member. It means I want to avoid conversation with someone who is going to berate/talk rubbish to me, based on a simple opinion. What you've done is twist my statement, to portray me as someone who cannot accept any less than full agreement with a personal point. I intend to converse with other like-minded people on here so don't appreciate being painted as a nutter.. Maybe you're about snipey comments and all that but I'm not playing, not what I'm here for. I don't know anything about you so shouldn't speak further, best to just leave it at that and move on, cheers.
I'm anything but passive aggressive, & certainly not "all about snipey comments & all that" - possibly one of the most positive & accommodating people you could ever wish to meet. If my comment came across like that I'm sorry. I did prefix that line with "I hope you're not" & ended with ;) to indicate a lack of seriousness in my reply. I agree, best leave the conversation there.

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Originally Posted by mikel View Post
Thanks for taking time and explaining, I like people who are passionate about what they do.

I still cant tell the difference between woods used in drum manufacture though. If I did a blind test and I was forced to make a distinction between three different shells I would be scratching to hear discernible change in sound.

I must be cloth eared. I have played different kits in a drum shop and been unable to differentiate the top of the range kit from the mid range without looking at the price tag. Doh.
I doubt you're "cloth eared", it's probably more a product of your points of reference. Testing out a selection of drums in a store, when the environment is usually not great & the kits are likely not tuned to make the best of the instrument, is unlikely to reveal any startling differences. Additionally, if you're trying kits of similar construction, any differences in wood species timbre will be subtle at best. Try a range of highly resonant drums in a number of wood species however, then the differences should be most apparent, especially between species of near opposite characteristics.
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  #736  
Old 10-16-2014, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Unpopular Drumming Opinion Thread

Unpopular opinion : Drummers are mentally challenged relative to real musicians

Please discuss.........
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  #737  
Old 10-16-2014, 09:23 PM
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Unpopular opinion : Drummers are mentally challenged relative to real musicians

Please discuss.........
Whoo hoo, now we're cooking! :)
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  #738  
Old 10-16-2014, 09:34 PM
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I think at the point where you're finding Andy (KIS) to be talking down to you and passive aggressive is certainly the time to take a break. The guitar player from my new band and I call this type the "Pete" after a mutual friend. Pete is a great guy and it would almost be a chore to get on his wrong side or dislike him. He's just that sweet of a guy. Andy is out Pete.

Bottom line, if you're not getting along with Andy then its you.

Oh and in the spirit of the Gretsch thread: I don't care for smaller rack toms. Smallest I need to say what I'm going to say is a 12".

And anything smaller than an 18" bass drum is a toy. Also on that note, I like the term kick drum, its just fun to say.
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  #739  
Old 10-16-2014, 10:02 PM
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Robots dream of world domination , people dream of e kits. I hate people who order half serves in restaurants.
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Old 10-16-2014, 11:47 PM
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  #740  
Old 10-17-2014, 12:46 AM
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I actually agree with Tap's view but it's not a matter of skill but physics.

At very low volumes the instrument has a range of subtleties that cannot be found at higher volumes. There's also a range of scrapes, swishes and bounces that wouldn't be heard at all at a rock gig. Bop players master those subtleties to create a richness and variance of sound that rock drummers can't physically match without a gazillion piece set (hence all the big kit v small kit debates).

So there it is - the answer to jazz v rock and small v big kit "controversies" solved in a few sentences. The answer, as anyone with a brain would know upon reflection (apparently not us drummers according to some), is not that one is better than the other, but the different functions create different potentials. I can confirm that when I play jazz I sound undeveloped, having come up through the school of Hard Garages ...

And yeah, that Andy character is a nasty piece of work - I see him as a cross between Sauron, Lord Voldemort and Dr Evil!

Okay, y' dumb bastards, you can go back to chewin' yer grass and fartin' methane again now or whatever dumb people do :)
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  #741  
Old 10-17-2014, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
One experiment you can do with an acoustic guitar is to play it away from the body and then tightly tucked in. It helps to have somebody else listening but it really does significantly change the way it sounds.
As demonstrated by many a guitar player.....Johnny Cash, John Lennon, John Fogerty....in fact... all John's knew this and played with this effect.
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  #742  
Old 10-17-2014, 01:57 AM
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At very low volumes the instrument has a range of subtleties that cannot be found at higher volumes. )
So true. A really interesting palette o' colors. Well put Nonners.
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  #743  
Old 10-17-2014, 11:55 AM
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Yep cool, as I said there is absolutely nothing I know about keep it simple so I called what I saw, at that particular moment in time, free of prejudice and in reflection rather hastily. Nice to see you that people stick together.

Anon La Ply, thats an interesting angle that I lacked the foresight to explore further. I always figured the large kits were for show but perhaps (for some) to create new colors to directly compensate for limitations elsewhere? Certainly given me something to think about anyway!
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  #744  
Old 10-17-2014, 01:53 PM
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Yep cool, as I said there is absolutely nothing I know about keep it simple so I called what I saw, at that particular moment in time, free of prejudice and in reflection rather hastily. Nice to see you that people stick together.

Anon La Ply, thats an interesting angle that I lacked the foresight to explore further. I always figured the large kits were for show but perhaps (for some) to create new colors to directly compensate for limitations elsewhere? Certainly given me something to think about anyway!
All's cool Tap :)

& yes, Grea makes a most valid point. In a highly amplified environment, nuance & grace often doesn't translate, no matter how skilfully or dynamically appropriately it's applied. The resort is therefore to a wider selection of elements that can convey melody/textures, etc, as required. That doesn't apply to all players however. For many, more drums just means greater stadium fill temptation & an aesthetic that's appropriate to the show.
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  #745  
Old 10-17-2014, 03:12 PM
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Yep cool, as I said there is absolutely nothing I know about keep it simple so I called what I saw, at that particular moment in time, free of prejudice and in reflection rather hastily. Nice to see you that people stick together.

Anon La Ply, thats an interesting angle that I lacked the foresight to explore further. I always figured the large kits were for show but perhaps (for some) to create new colors to directly compensate for limitations elsewhere? Certainly given me something to think about anyway!
I didn't read anything "Passive aggressive" In KIS's response. Perhaps you are over analysing posts on here, we are simple drumming folk. What you see is what you get. No agendas.
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  #746  
Old 10-18-2014, 11:17 AM
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So true. A really interesting palette o' colors. Well put Nonners.
Yes Uncle :) The tone of low volume sounds on drum kit are more beautiful to my ear.

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Originally Posted by TapTailor View Post
Anon La Ply, thats an interesting angle that I lacked the foresight to explore further. I always figured the large kits were for show but perhaps (for some) to create new colors to directly compensate for limitations elsewhere? Certainly given me something to think about anyway!
Cheers Tap. Whenever I've sat at a big kit I've felt all at sea (and compelled to just play ride, kick, snare and hats :) So, at least as far as my body is concerned, it's a whole other skillset requiring a range of larger movements that need to be brought under control. All slightly different skills.

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In a highly amplified environment, nuance & grace often doesn't translate, no matter how skilfully or dynamically appropriately it's applied. The resort is therefore to a wider selection of elements that can convey melody/textures, etc, as required. That doesn't apply to all players however. For many, more drums just means greater stadium fill temptation & an aesthetic that's appropriate to the show.
Yep, and I've been on both sides of that fence, ordinary as I've been in each style lol

The best example I remember of the loss of nuance you talked about was seeing the YT of Jeff Porcaro with Toto playing Rosanna and not playing the ghost notes. With the big stage sound and the stadium's reverberations I wouldn't have known he was playing the shuffle straight if it was just audio.

Or maybe I'd heard the triplets so often that my ear inserted them?

Oh, another example. Seeing Jethro Tull at the Entertainment Centre and the intricacy of the music was lost in the rumble. Not long afterwards I heard Crowded House and their simple Beatley pop sounded spot on (or maybe their engineer knew the venue better?). Paul Hester, CH's classy drummer (sadly lost too soon) played the show with just kick, snare, hats and crash/ride cymbal :)
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Old 10-19-2014, 05:23 PM
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TapTailor TapTailor is offline
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Default Re: Unpopular Drumming Opinion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Whenever I've sat at a big kit I've felt all at sea (and compelled to just play ride, kick, snare and hats :)
Amen, I feel exactly the same - horses for courses I suppose..
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Old 10-19-2014, 09:14 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Default Re: Unpopular Drumming Opinion Thread

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Originally Posted by Dre25 View Post
Hey, perhaps it snot so profound if you need to use a different instrument as an example but what about lacquers?

My unpopular opinion - I've grown tired of some characters here. It's probably time for a holiday. Fthhbjioigddx
Yeah...that would suit me just fine.Bye Dre

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