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  #1  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:25 PM
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Default Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/musician...es-them-broke/



check out some of these numbers. wow
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  #2  
Old 07-23-2014, 11:33 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

Writing is on the wall. Consumers basically get everything for cheap.
The only money is in touring now. You have to play live.
Question is - society is becoming less interested in going out, and paying - for live music, live theatre, movies at theatres etc.
Not sure where it is leading. Changing times.
If new musicians stop producing or distributing, we we run out of music to consume, and just rely on old music.
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Old 07-23-2014, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

This dovetails into why it's probably better to just be in a cover band, or a tribute band, if you were going to just perform.

As for writing music? I'd probably go into attempting to write the next great American novel ;)

And this is why we have crap to listen to on the radio stations. The good writers have gone into network marketing.
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Old 07-24-2014, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

The big money is in licensing now. Playing OPM will get you a $100 or so but that's nothing to live on.

But touring, when done correctly with routing planned in advance, merch to sell and "pre-texting" via social media (street teams) will also contribute greatly to the success of a band.

Major labels have taken to offering "360 deals" which is pretty much they get a slice of everything; merch sales, ticket sales, part of your songwriting revenues, etc. That's the only way they can survive.

The tools available today have made it so much easier to create that those with lesser talent and training have enabled themselves to create content and sell it. And it's always been that way; there's always that one band with the weak link leader that can't sing their way out of a wet paper bag but their ability to sell and negotiate puts the band into a better bracket.
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Old 07-24-2014, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
This dovetails into why it's probably better to just be in a cover band, or a tribute band, if you were going to just perform.

As for writing music? I'd probably go into attempting to write the next great American novel ;)

And this is why we have crap to listen to on the radio stations. The good writers have gone into network marketing.
There's still great bands out there, Bo. Thing is, the major labels and those with the power to put them out there want a pound of flesh to do so and as a result, they tend to say "meh" and don't go for it. Clear Channel gets marching orders on what and whom to play from those who make such decisions, and those decisions have very little to do with quality of content but rather "how much are you going to pay us?"

I mean, another angle is to look at the R&R Hall of Fame. They'll induct a rapper who was born in 1990 before they let in someone like Rush or any number of the other luminary artists who have helped forge R&R into the form it is today. It's all political unfortunately.
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  #6  
Old 07-24-2014, 05:46 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Writing is on the wall. Consumers basically get everything for cheap.
The only money is in touring now. You have to play live.
Question is - society is becoming less interested in going out, and paying - for live music, live theatre, movies at theatres etc.
Not sure where it is leading. Changing times.
If new musicians stop producing or distributing, we we run out of music to consume, and just rely on old music.
Depends on the band/ group I think. For instance I saw DMB three time in less than a week and each venue was near sold out, if not.
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  #7  
Old 07-24-2014, 06:31 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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Originally Posted by BillRayDrums View Post
There's still great bands out there, Bo. Thing is, the major labels and those with the power to put them out there want a pound of flesh to do so and as a result, they tend to say "meh" and don't go for it. Clear Channel gets marching orders on what and whom to play from those who make such decisions, and those decisions have very little to do with quality of content but rather "how much are you going to pay us?"

I mean, another angle is to look at the R&R Hall of Fame. They'll induct a rapper who was born in 1990 before they let in someone like Rush or any number of the other luminary artists who have helped forge R&R into the form it is today. It's all political unfortunately.
I'm not being overly sarcastic or angry, it just seems like the more things change, the more they stay the same. Perhaps this is why we have the truly great artists of our time. If it was meant that everyone be able to be great, finance-producing artists, then everybody would be doing it, and it would be worth nothing.
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Old 07-24-2014, 03:03 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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I mean, another angle is to look at the R&R Hall of Fame. They'll induct a rapper who was born in 1990 before they let in someone like Rush or any number of the other luminary artists who have helped forge R&R into the form it is today. It's all political unfortunately.
I don't think it's political, I think it's about capital. People forget that things like R&RHoF are not about art, they're about entertainment, and ultimately, the ability to make money.

Let's call it the monetization of art.

Things have certainly flipped through the decades. There was a time when touring was not seen as a big money maker itself, rather it was seen as a way of boosting record sales: you toured in support of the new record.

This "turned on its head" phenomenon is not unique to the music industry. Technology has allowed people to do lots of things on their own that used to require a large supporting infrastructure (like making an album). At the same time, technology has made it possible for people to steal said material easily (download/trade new album).

Compare this situation with the book publishing industry. I won't get into the e-book thing other than to say that the creators learned a lesson from the music industry about preventing copying. 25 years ago I decided to write a college engineering textbook. I signed a deal with a reputable publisher and we set about making a book. All is wonderful, right? No. Sales were good but the publisher warned me that they would drop off in a few years once the used market for it started to kick in. I don't have a problem with students selling books to each other but what really drew my ire was the emergence of reseller companies that would go from campus to campus buying up used books to resell them back to college bookstores. The students got screwed on this deal. Not only did they have to pay a lot more for used books but they didn't get as much for their used books. At the same time, the publisher and author got zero. So the publishers' solution was to start cranking out new editions every 3 or 4 years to gut the used market even if the text didn't need an update. That, of course, drove up production costs. The publishers also see themselves as serving a captive audience and they will price at whatever they think they can get. Now it is not uncommon for a single college text to fetch well over $200. It's crazy.

What to do, right? Well, different authors have different solutions. Mine was to abandon the for-profit publisher model and go into the OER model (open educational resources). Computers and the Internet made it possible to self-publish and self-distribute globally. I've produced a half dozen titles under the OER model. I have complete control over my work, students all over the globe get to use my work for free, and other professors can take my work and modify or expand it for their needs. The only thing they can't do is resell it. This becomes a community endeavor, we all benefit from it but no one makes any money* on it. That is, the benefit is not personal profit, it's more along the lines of shared workload and cost savings. The model works if everyone contributes.

This model can work for education but I'm not sure it can work with for a strict producer/consumer situation like entertainment. It can work in other other areas, for example community supported software (think Firefox, Arduino, etc.). CSA (community supported agriculture) might be closer to the music situation but the trick here is the creation of a physical product not an "intellectual product".

I wish I had a good answer.


*To be fully upfront, I did receive modest stipends from my college in support of this work but it's far less than going through the traditional publisher route.

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  #9  
Old 07-24-2014, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

I have no idea how the future will pan out. It does seem that superstar musicians are a 20th century phenomenon.

When I speak to parents regarding a child's musical career, I highlight education. There will always be education. And I stress that multi percussion is the way to go. Drummers who only play dumset seem, at least to me, to have limited options within an ever decreasing market place.

Reading and theory kids. Good luck.
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  #10  
Old 07-24-2014, 04:54 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

It's true that income for the majority of artists has shifted from record sales to live performance (or the occasional licensing.) The internet is largely responsible for the decline of sales over the past several years, and YouTube is singlehandedly putting the final nail in that coffin.

But let's not confuse streaming with downloading a song from iTunes, where the artist, writer and (mostly the) label benefit pretty much as they always have. Of course, the numbers on iTunes are much lower than they were in the past, but the slice of the pie is the same.

What concerns me is that artists/bands consider streaming as potential income, and it's really not, at least not in the same way that actually selling music provides cashflow. Many of these artists don't want anything to do with labels, and many labels may not want anything to do with them, either! But then the artist complains that they can't make money when they've already bought into the idea that people streaming music for free, and the pennies per click paid by advertisers, will amount to something.

The paradigm has indeed shifted, thanks to the internet kiddies that both enable and decry it. But I don't know that it can be halted, much less reversed. It will be what it will be, and only when listeners - and the artists - understand that music has value, and act accordingly, can there be a return to the valuation of the music.

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  #11  
Old 07-24-2014, 07:06 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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Originally Posted by wy yung View Post
I have no idea how the future will pan out. It does seem that superstar musicians are a 20th century phenomenon.

When I speak to parents regarding a child's musical career, I highlight education. There will always be education. And I stress that multi percussion is the way to go. Drummers who only play dumset seem, at least to me, to have limited options within an ever decreasing market place.

Reading and theory kids. Good luck.

Very few of those among today's "Stars"...
They are more actors/dancers than musicians.
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  #12  
Old 07-24-2014, 08:06 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

Well, I cant speak for the musicians, but as someone who streams music, or watches youtube, I am very glad there are these sources for me to hear new music from bands I like, or never even knew about.

As someone who lives in Chicago, the third largest city in the US, there is NO (zero, zilch, nada) new music played on the radio with the exception of POP music. Pretty much every radio frequency that is within the bandwidth of a standard radio is used here in Chicago. 50% of it is in Spanish or Polish, so those are a no go for me. The other 50% is talk or news radio, classic rock, 80/90's music, and new age pop music. There may be country, but I think its only one or two stations max. Now, I can live with classic rock and 80/90's music for the most part since I am not in my car that often, but there is nothing new being played over the radio waves to let new bands be heard by the people.

Thats the sad reality of what is the music industry. Unless you, or your band, play music that can be heard on American Idol, the Voice, or X Factor you will not be played on the radio. Your only option is the internet. That means streaming your music for nearly free. You build up your fan base by touring, you take a break from touring and create a new album, and you repeat the process. You may get lucky by having your song gain enough popularity that it gets used in a TV advertisement, but it still wont be played on the radio because if its not Pop music, it ain't getting played.
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  #13  
Old 07-24-2014, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

I dont know about you guys but I'm making BANK on streaming revenue. I'm pulling down a hefty $1.25 or so EVERY MONTH!

Seriously though. I stream some music, I download (legally and pay for it) a lot of music and still buy a few CDs. I've grown to hate going to live shows, so I'm pretty much done with that.
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Old 07-24-2014, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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Originally Posted by wy yung View Post
I have no idea how the future will pan out. It does seem that superstar musicians are a 20th century phenomenon.

When I speak to parents regarding a child's musical career, I highlight education. There will always be education. And I stress that multi percussion is the way to go. Drummers who only play dumset seem, at least to me, to have limited options within an ever decreasing market place.

Reading and theory kids. Good luck.

I am very new to this forum, but I have to give kudos to you. You hit the nail on the head. I refused to call myself a drummer for years (when I was younger) because I wanted people to know I was a professional percussionist. I studied for many years in that realm and set was just for fun and a stress reliever. Now that I am an adult, I am more serious into set... since there are no adult symphonic bands for me to play in. I am trying a new route!
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Old 07-24-2014, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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Thats the sad reality of what is the music industry. Unless you, or your band, play music that can be heard on American Idol, the Voice, or X Factor you will not be played on the radio.
In some respects, little has changed. Zappa made the identical argument in the mid 60s. The difference now is that there are no record sales (comparatively) for someone who might go the independent route, but on the other hand it's much less expensive and far easier to get quality production out there than it used to be for an independent.

In the long run, the music consumers are shooting themselves in the foot because they want something for free. The only musicians who can survive that are a few fortunate ones who can combine the right product with the right marketing. There will be a small, select group who get very rich, and a huge population barely getting by. The large middle ground is getting the life sucked out of it. The average musician will simply become another member of an economically exploited class. Does this scenario sound vaguely familiar to anyone? And I certainly don't see any effort to alleviate this disparity coming from within the industry because this system still works for the corporate heads.

I think the only thing that can be done is to make an end-run around the industry itself. Artists need to work together, to cross promote, to create their art and figure out ways to get it to the public directly, without filters and without the hands of middlemen taking their cut.

And this brings up one really cool thing about music and art in general that makes it entirely different from the sports entertainment industry, and it's something artists need to capitalize on: Liking A does not preclude liking B. In sports, if I have a favorite team it means that all other teams are second and anything that hurts those teams helps my team. But if I like a certain band, the success of some other band does not negatively impact the first band. In fact, I might be VERY interested in seeing some members of band A join with some members of B and C for an album or a tour. It's not a zero-sum game.
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Old 07-24-2014, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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Well, I cant speak for the musicians, but as someone who streams music, or watches youtube, I am very glad there are these sources for me to hear new music from bands I like, or never even knew about.
Don't get me wrong, streaming is great in terms of discovering new music. The problem is, too many people simply rely on streaming the songs when they want to hear/watch them, rather than ever make a purchase. To them, music exists as an on-demand, and free commodity, and the internet has enabled it in a way that labels and artists never saw coming while they were busy complaining about people making cassettes of LPs and trading them.

I love YouTube, but not when someone takes an artist's song, and posts it with a silly, quasi-legal disclaimer. They are giving someone's music away, and YouTube apparently condones it.

Artists who think streaming is a form of compensation for their art, are just delusional. Some artists genuinely want to give their work away, and that's their business. But they're also not the ones who are doing the complaining.

If my work was being given away on YouTube by someone I don't know, I'd take action to help preserve my career.

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Old 07-24-2014, 09:08 PM
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I dont know about you guys but I'm making BANK on streaming revenue. I'm pulling down a hefty $1.25 or so EVERY MONTH!
And Uncle Sam doesn't want you to forget to list that $15 as earned income at the end of the year
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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In some respects, little has changed. Zappa made the identical argument in the mid 60s.
With no disrespect to Frank Zappa, his music was never going to be played on the radio. It was way too niche market to ever see radio play outside of the Dr. Dimento radio show.

Now, satellite radio is much better for hearing new music, or even Zappa for that matter, and I do have a subscription to that. Of course even with this access to new music I still don't go out and buy CD's anymore. I think the last CD I bought was almost 20 years ago. I don't think its because of the internet. Its because bands I liked started breaking up, their music went out of popularity, or I got busy with college and starting a career. Life took importance and music became something that is just in the background. Honestly, anything after 1992 and it just doesn't exist in my memory.

If I want to hear a song, I can look it up, or if I just want music in the background I can use satellite radio, Pandora, etc. I don't see this as cheating the system. Downloading the music and burning it on a disc or putting it in to your music library would be direct stealing. But using services that are there to provide music, such as the radio provides music, is totally fair game IMO.
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:56 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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With no disrespect to Frank Zappa, his music was never going to be played on the radio. It was way too niche market to ever see radio play outside of the Dr. Dimento radio show.
Zappa was declared to have "no commercial potential" by a music marketing exec in the 1960s yet he produced over 60 albums on his own. I'd also lay odds that virtually every forum member who was alive during the 1970s has heard of Zappa and is familiar with at least some of his material, and those who have not probably count Zappa alumni as influences. I don't consider that niche. No, he didn't sell like Michael Jackson but that's no reason to blackball someone.

In any case, it's his observation about the music industry that I was pointing to, not his music.
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Old 07-24-2014, 10:43 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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And Uncle Sam doesn't want you to forget to list that $15 as earned income at the end of the year
Yes, of course.



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  #21  
Old 07-25-2014, 12:30 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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Zappa was declared to have "no commercial potential" by a music marketing exec in the 1960s yet he produced over 60 albums on his own. I'd also lay odds that virtually every forum member who was alive during the 1970s has heard of Zappa and is familiar with at least some of his material, and those who have not probably count Zappa alumni as influences. I don't consider that niche. No, he didn't sell like Michael Jackson but that's no reason to blackball someone.

In any case, it's his observation about the music industry that I was pointing to, not his music.
Zappa may have made 60 albums, but none of his records ever made it past gold. That's with world wide sales and in an age where vinyl was the most common medium the music was held on, so no worry about piracy back in those days. Sadly if you look at Lady Gaga, you see her debut album hitting platinum 15 times over with world wide sales in a day where mp3 is the greatest medium her music is carried on, and piracy is rampant. So despite the fact that Zappa was well known, it doesn't mean his music was well received. Lady Gaga is also well known, but her music is vastly better received. Her music doesn't fit a niche market. Her music IS the market.

I have no idea why pop music is the only music that makes money in this day in age. Back when I was growing up you had rock-n-roll, glam rock, thrash/metal, country, pop, etc. all co-existing and making money. How has all but one of these genres died out? You can't say there is no money in music. That's an absolute lie. Its clearly there, but its all stuck in pop music.

Is there just not enough civil unrest for rock music to take a stand and "fight the power"? Are there just not enough enraged people who need a form of music that lets them release their stress? How can there be so many people who are all hopped up on bubble gum and sugar that pop music suits all their needs? Perhaps musicians need to look at their music and find out why its not being well received. Try to find out their demographic and either live with what they have, or change their music so it is better received. People call this "selling out" but I don't see it that way. Its called business. If you want to make money you have to have a larger fan base. How do you get a larger fan base? Appeal to more fans. If that means tweaking your musical style to open up to more people, then that's what you have to do to grow your business.

Hell, Metallica couldn't get an album of theirs to go platinum until they "sold out" and made the black album. What happened from "selling out"? They sold 30 Million albums, and all their previous album sales increased because of their new fan base. Now they are almost 10x platinum for every album they have ever made. What did it take? A good producer to tweak their sound, and a relentless 2 1/2 year touring schedule. I'm sure it wasn't easy, but if you had the chance to spend 3-5 years of your life working your ass off to get your music out to the world, would you do it? I'm sure many of the young guys would say yes. The old timers may not want to do it, but that's fine, its their choice.
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Old 07-25-2014, 01:03 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

There's really not much to say about the article. It's an age-old dilemma. Unless you're one of a select-few pop-culture phenomenons, you do not make royalties from broadcast or album sales. When I was trying to play guitar professionally, I made more money playing on a single McDonald's commercial than I did selling 30,000 albums and getting national airplay. Selling 30k albums left the band with about $80,000 in debt. We managed to snag the masters, bury our second album, and dissolve the LLC before it got farther out-of-hand.

Personally, I'm quite content to see the old ecosystem die.

On a related note.... Mozart just called. He said he was broke and needed a few quid.
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Old 07-25-2014, 03:49 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
It's true that income for the majority of artists has shifted from record sales to live performance (or the occasional licensing.) The internet is largely responsible for the decline of sales over the past several years, and YouTube is singlehandedly putting the final nail in that coffin.
I saw an interview with your boss on the Oz Today Show a few days ago where he said this was his last record (as your record deal has now expired) and that he will now shift to releasing sporadic singles (via Youtube I assume) instead of waiting to release 12 songs at once on an album.
Do you think this new business model will affect your income adversely and you will need to tour more?
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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...he will now shift to releasing sporadic singles (via Youtube I assume) instead of waiting to release 12 songs at once on an album.
Do you think this new business model will affect your income adversely and you will need to tour more?
YouTube will be strictly for promoting the videos in order to generate interest and sell the particular song, which will be available on iTunes, Amazon, and the usual digital outlets. The idea of releasing a single on YouTube in hopes of generating streaming revenue is... well, re-read the article.

I don't foresee an adverse financial situation at all releasing one or two or three singles at a time. Al is perfectly capable of promoting the songs, and his cut will be significantly higher without the label taking the lion's share. Even selling half of what the label could help sell, he'll make maybe 5 times the money.

And there's an obvious benefit to releasing original songs while they're topical, and parodies while the original counterpart is still a hit. Word Crimes could have been a bigger hit single if we were able to release it when it was recorded a while back and still fairly current.

Touring is a money-maker for us, but there are protocols regarding when and where and how often we play markets for a given album. In other words, we can't over-saturate a market and expect the fans to keep coming to the same show over and over. Timing and frequency are important, and we can't simply "tour more" just to generate income. That said, we tour plenty, and do play some markets until it's just embarrassing to keep coming back with the same show.

We take a break now and then, as we're doing this year, then come back with a new album and show, so our fans have a reason to come back and see us.

Bermuda
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Old 07-25-2014, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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Hell, Metallica couldn't get an album of theirs to go platinum until they "sold out" and made the black album. What happened from "selling out"? They sold 30 Million albums, and all their previous album sales increased because of their new fan base. Now they are almost 10x platinum for every album they have ever made.
You bring up an interesting point, namely that sales of their earlier albums increased. That's certainly not because it changed, right? It's simply because they got airplay from their current success, which alerted more people to them, which caused those people to see what else they produced. Obvious perhaps, but the question we need to ask is why did people then purchase the previous material? Did they purchase it simply because the group is now popular and they wanted to "back a winner" so to speak, or is it because they were never exposed to the material to begin with, and if they had, they'd have purchased it long ago? If it's the second one (and I suspect it is) then the issue is that music execs, DJs, etc. are acting as a filter and if you (as musician) can't get past that filter, you're stuck.

We'll never know just how popular some bands could've been simply because they were not given a pass through the filter. If Metallica never "sold out", we'd all be referring to them as just another "niche market band" yet all of the material on those earlier albums would be just what it always was. That's a completely different situation than a band changing direction and everyone liking the new stuff but not the old stuff. When Phil Collins put out Face Value, there wasn't a sudden run on Brand X albums from just a few years prior. (I think we can say safely that Brand X was a niche band.)
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Old 07-25-2014, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

Journey had a similar issue, but it was right at the beginning of their career. They started as a music-centric band but were not being received very well. They talked with producers and their manager and learned that they would be better received if they switched gear and became more vocally driven and have the musicianship take a back roll. Steve Perry was introduced to the band and they took off. Did they "sell out"? Not really. Musically they are all very good players and it still shows in their music, but honestly I couldn't imagine what that band would sound like if Steve Perry was never introduced. All of us may never have even heard of Journey if they didn't switch directions.

But the moral of the story is that something about their sound was not being received by as many people as they wanted. They found the issue and rectified it.

So speaking of streaming I was thinking about Netflix. Do you think the movie industry will be complaining in 10 years that there is no money in movies due to streaming? Honestly, I have no pity for the actor who makes $10M a movie who complains that their residual income is being depleted due to streaming. I enjoy movies, but since they became more than $10 a ticket, I haven't been to the theater. My movie going experience has not been elevated equally with the price hike. So that's maybe 7 years since I've seen a movie at a theater. I use Netflix now and I'm totally happy.
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Old 07-26-2014, 12:19 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

Maaaan, I remember going to Borders or Barnes and Nobles as a kid and listening to the snippets of songs on those little machines where you could scan the CD's in the store. Sure, you can't take it with you unless you bought it, like you can now, but the selection was severely limited compared to what you can find on the internet now. Streaming helps me find bands I would have otherwise had ZERO access to, and if I'll buy it if I like it.
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:32 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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Maaaan, I remember going to Borders or Barnes and Nobles as a kid and listening to the snippets of songs on those little machines where you could scan the CD's in the store. ... Streaming helps me find bands I would have otherwise had ZERO access to, and if I'll buy it if I like it.
There's a difference between streaming, and song samples designed to let you hear what a song sounds like in order to make a buying decision.

I am thoroughly amused by people who post entire songs that don't belong to them, and claim they're helping promote the artist! Right...

I wonder why iTunes or Amazon don't handle it the same way? Why do they only let you hear 30 or 45 seconds of a song? Oh yeah... because then nobody would buy the song!!

Again, YouTube is the MAJOR culprit in enabling anyone to post work that isn't theirs, and by just stating that fact, they're cheerfully permitted to distribute copyrighted audio and video without penalty!

It is incredible. I don't understand how those goofy disclaimers make such a blatantly wrong action possible.

You bet artists and labels are up in arms about this!

Bermuda
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Old 07-26-2014, 02:12 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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I wonder why iTunes or Amazon don't handle it the same way? Why do they only let you hear 30 or 45 seconds of a song? Oh yeah... because then nobody would buy the song!!

Bermuda
Going back to your other post- are we to infer from this that the YouTube videos you will release in the future will be 30-45 seconds only and then direct you to buy the entire song on iTunes? (Thanks for the behind the scenes insight BTW).
This would seem to be the only way to stop (or at least hinder) unscrupulous types from downloading the song direct from YouTube....
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Old 07-26-2014, 02:35 AM
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Going back to your other post- are we to infer from this that the YouTube videos you will release in the future will be 30-45 seconds only and then direct you to buy the entire song on iTunes? (Thanks for the behind the scenes insight BTW).
This would seem to be the only way to stop (or at least hinder) unscrupulous types from downloading the song direct from YouTube....
Obviously a video must be promoted in its entirety, there's not much that can done about that. Maybe have the audio in mono so it's less attractive to listen to or record the stream, but have the audio and video be in stereo when it's purchased?

But I was talking about people who don't own the work that they're posting, and how they're allowed to continue to do that. For them to enable free streaming is wrong. It's certainly not fair use, as that really allows for only an excerpt for certain purposes (such as, oh, I don't know... using a representative clip to actually sell the song!)

But the article in question isn't actually about people giving away the music. It's about the pittance the writer & artist derives from the legitimate monetization of streaming.

And that's why Google allows the audio and video to remain on YouTube... so that they can get the advertising fees for each play. The person posting the video gets a tiny cut, so they're encouraged to post more. The writer/artists gets nothing, except referrals to those links so that others can also enjoy the music for free.

The horse is out of the barn, and hosting its own YouTube channel full of free music with disclaimers that read "Willl-burrrr, I don't claim ownership..."

It's a bad, bad thing.
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Old 07-26-2014, 02:36 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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Journey had a similar issue, but it was right at the beginning of their career. They started as a music-centric band but were not being received very well. They talked with producers and their manager and learned that they would be better received if they switched gear and became more vocally driven and have the musicianship take a back roll. Steve Perry was introduced to the band and they took off. Did they "sell out"? Not really. Musically they are all very good players and it still shows in their music, but honestly I couldn't imagine what that band would sound like if Steve Perry was never introduced. All of us may never have even heard of Journey if they didn't switch directions.

But the moral of the story is that something about their sound was not being received by as many people as they wanted. They found the issue and rectified it.
Journey is a case study in how the music industry used to be, and a big reason why it is no longer the same.

Journey's first 3 albums sold poorly. They were sold to change their sound. Their 4th album showed promise, but they didn't make a profit until their 5th album. It was their 8th album that made them huge.

Pink Floyd, Rush, Fleetwood Mac all have similar-ish stories of not becoming legends until later in their career, and the record labels putting up with poor to mediocre sales until eventually there was a huge payoff.

But starting in the late 80's, and particular in the 90's, the big labels stopped doing long term investment in bands. Bands singed in the 90's had to produce profitable records right away, or be dropped. Even many successful bands found themselves dropped if their follow up album wasn't a success.

And this took place well before streaming on the internet.

A big reason why we don't see more epic selling albums like Escape, Dark Side of the Moon, Rumors, or Moving Pictures is none of the record labels invest that much time into a band anymore.

As for Zappa's comments, they had a lot to do with the fact that up until the late 60's, royalty rates were generally around 5%.
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Old 07-26-2014, 10:22 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

There's also the way in which music is consumed.

It's been a while since "high fidelity" was a hobby. I think there are two reasons for this:
First CD's made what would have been hugely expensive analog audio reproduction available to everybody relatively inexpensively. And then MP3's came along with "good enough" sound reproduction.

Do people still just listen to music anymore? Or is music something that plays on the PC while you surf the web, in the car when you drive, or maybe in earphones when you do something else?

If listening to music isn't an activity in itself, then perhaps paying for music is less attractive, as it's only going to be an accompaniment to some other activity.

In other news, the buggy whip industry remains in the doldrums.
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Old 07-26-2014, 12:40 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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There's also the way in which music is consumed.

It's been a while since "high fidelity" was a hobby. I think there are two reasons for this:
First CD's made what would have been hugely expensive analog audio reproduction available to everybody relatively inexpensively. And then MP3's came along with "good enough" sound reproduction.

Do people still just listen to music anymore? Or is music something that plays on the PC while you surf the web, in the car when you drive, or maybe in earphones when you do something else?

If listening to music isn't an activity in itself, then perhaps paying for music is less attractive, as it's only going to be an accompaniment to some other activity.

In other news, the buggy whip industry remains in the doldrums.
Definitely. I think for many people music is merely the sonic wallpaper of their lives.

Back in college (before there were buggy whips), the most prized possession of many students was their stereo. I remember when every town bigger than a crossroads had at least one stereo hi-fi store. My friends and I would practically scrutinize the music, listening for the smallest details. Now it seems that music just fills a sonic void when people aren't on their phones (and of course, how convenient that the two are in one device now).

I read an article a few years back where the author was lamenting the fact that there has never been a time when such extremely high fidelity music was available to the public, yet the public no longer seem to care. If the present quality had suddenly become available in 1977 for the equivalent prices, we'd have declared a national holiday for music listening.
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Old 07-26-2014, 01:14 PM
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Sonic wallpaper. AWESOME definition!

I have known audiophiles who cared more about the hi fi system used to play the music, than the actual music.
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Old 07-26-2014, 04:47 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

The music industry has suffered the same fate as every other industry affected by the Internet: a hollowing out. In other words, fewer people at the top make money, but those that do make more. The people in the middle who sort-of-got-along are now stuck with those at the bottom, the people-who-would-never-have-made-it-no-matter-what. There's virtually no middle ground, comparatively speaking, anymore.

Another way to look at it is that the music industry of the last 100 years is a historical anomaly, and we are now back in the normal state of affairs. In other words, before recorded music, the only way to make money as a musician was to play live.

Unfortunately, there are obviously far fewer opportunities to play live now.
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:09 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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You bring up an interesting point, namely that sales of their earlier albums increased. That's certainly not because it changed, right? It's simply because they got airplay from their current success, which alerted more people to them, which caused those people to see what else they produced. Obvious perhaps, but the question we need to ask is why did people then purchase the previous material? Did they purchase it simply because the group is now popular and they wanted to "back a winner" so to speak, or is it because they were never exposed to the material to begin with, and if they had, they'd have purchased it long ago? If it's the second one (and I suspect it is) then the issue is that music execs, DJs, etc. are acting as a filter and if you (as musician) can't get past that filter, you're stuck.

We'll never know just how popular some bands could've been simply because they were not given a pass through the filter. If Metallica never "sold out", we'd all be referring to them as just another "niche market band" yet all of the material on those earlier albums would be just what it always was. That's a completely different situation than a band changing direction and everyone liking the new stuff but not the old stuff. When Phil Collins put out Face Value, there wasn't a sudden run on Brand X albums from just a few years prior. (I think we can say safely that Brand X was a niche band.)
Perfectly put.

The issues with streaming comes down to music having very little perceived value. When the only way to get music into the home was to buy it then that was what people did. Now it is free! Why pay for it right? Consumers seem to have very little conscience when it comes to their wallet. Just look at the prevelance of cheap clothing available. When a tee shirt costs 5 then someone somewhere is making that shirt for what most people would agree is in poor conditions and for not enough money. But those shirts get sold because it is easier to ignore your conscience than listen to it and act upon it.

Simon Cowell has had to turn music into a game show in order to make money from it, he seems to care very little for being part of the devaluing of music.

The music industry sucks! If it had any balls it would stop, what Bemuda talks about, the giving away of music via youtube without the artist's permission. Then it should pull all artists from spotify. Allow full albums and singles only to be downloaded form I tunes. Then it should start taking artist seriously again...
(There was a time in the UK when independent labels really took off and bands had a say and a feeling of ownership. Sadly most of those labels got bought up by the major 4 labels.)

The whole idea of having a music collection and never paying for any of that music is so short sighted. I love listening to music and often worry that some of my favourite artists will stop making music because they can no longer afford to!
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:48 AM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

When I ask my friends what music they listen and if they have spent money for music, most of them shrug and say, why I watch the music I like on Youtube.

Only a few buy songs at beatport or itunes ect..

So, musicians would be way better of if YT would pay more. I wonder when this will happen, I know it is diffucult since YT is a free service. However, most of TV is free too and advertising is paying actors, producers and directors. Probably that's why Google is growing richer and richer each year?
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Old 07-28-2014, 02:33 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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rDefinitely. I think for many people music is merely the sonic wallpaper of their lives.

Back in college (before there were buggy whips), the most prized possession of many students was their stereo. I remember when every town bigger than a crossroads had at least one stereo hi-fi store. My friends and I would practically scrutinize the music, listening for the smallest details. Now it seems that music just fills a sonic void when people aren't on their phones (and of course, how convenient that the two are in one device now).

I read an article a few years back where the author was lamenting the fact that there has never been a time when such extremely high fidelity music was available to the public, yet the public no longer seem to care. If the present quality had suddenly become available in 1977 for the equivalent prices, we'd have declared a national holiday for music listening.
You both hit the nail on the head. My wife will have music on at all times of the day and night, but she is constantly amazed by my memory and reciting of song lyrics. That's because she isn't really "Listening" to the music, its a background noise, a distraction from another activity. Sometimes she is even un aware of the music that has just been played.

If I want to listen to music that's what I do, Its an activity in itself, that's how I know the lyrics to lots of songs. When I see people running or cycling with headphones on it irks me, I think "If you don't like what you are doing don't do it, why ruin music by using it as a distraction from something else"? Also, you cant like music that much if it is not distracting you to the point where it is dangerous to be running or cycling.

Rant over.
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:40 PM
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Default Re: Musicians Say streaming Music will Leave them Broke.

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When I see people running or cycling with headphones on it irks me, I think "If you don't like what you are doing don't do it, why ruin music by using it as a distraction from something else"? Also, you cant like music that much if it is not distracting you to the point where it is dangerous to be running or cycling.

Rant over.
Well mine is just beginning. A bit off topic but whenever I see someone running, walking or riding in the streets while wearing earbuds I just want to run over and give them a good slap. I used to be the president of the local running club and one thing I used to harp on was if you're on the roads, always always always be aware of your surroundings. It seems like half the people driving are either texting or on their phone and if you combine that with an oblivious runner you have a recipe for disaster.

Check this out: There is a huge road race in town, the Boilermaker 15k, which caps at around 15,000 entrants. A few years back I was injured so I staked out a nice spectating spot on a long downhill coming out of the city public golf course. About 15 minutes before the main race the wheelchair racers take off. In spite of the head start, eventually many people will overtake the slower wheelchairs, particularly going into the golf course as it's uphill. But going downhill those racing chairs are as fast as a bike. Anyway, I'm watching this stream of people running down this hill. I see one 20-something woman running down the middle wearing earbuds. Then I hear shouts of "Chair!" which is the standard warning that a wheelchair is coming quick. This woman doesn't hear any of this and mind you, racing chairs cannot turn easily like bikes. In spite of shouts from numerous people, she hears nothing and continues down the middle of the road. At the last moment, a guy running near her lunges for her, grabs her by the arm and yanks her out of the path of the chair. I'm guessing the chair is going over 20 MPH at this point. The look on her face was half "Hey, what's the big idea grabbing me?" and half "What the heck was that?"

Later in the same race I was at the finish. There's a short but steep downhill before the final flat few hundred meters. Some people race in standard wheelchairs as part of a challenge program (if they finish, they get a free racing chair). They are obviously at a huge disadvantage and finish way back but even they can pick up a little speed on the downhills. So here comes this guy in a standard wheelchair going a little faster than the runners around him and wouldn't you know it, another runner oblivious to everything right in the way. He is surrounded by other runners and has little in the way of steering control. In this case the woman wound up in the guy's lap. Fortunately the speed difference was modest enough that no one was hurt.

I don't know if any of these sorts of things ever wound up on a YouTube video but if they did, there's a good chance that if they had background music added, the music would've been pirated.
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