Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

There are purest followers for other forms of music that are angered when their fav band does a pop recording.
I spent about a year during the mid seventies following the Dead.
The purist members of that cult will not own a studio recorded Dead album.
I never understood them either.
Many of them have never listened to any other music that didn't have a member from the Dead playing on it.

Bob, I could have been more readily persuaded to the other end of the argument if I didn't have to read post like this. Jazz does have at its core many a trifle of pop ditties that have become the fodder of its its infernal musical transformation machine. But to read a post like this baffles me.

How could one be a fan of the Grateful Dead and not come to understand that , like most jazz music, The Dead is a part of the counter-culture? The 1960s counter-culture was based on a radical imperative to change the social fabric of American society. Its was anti-war, anti-imperialist, anti-commercialism and anti-what have you got. To not agree with the opinions of those who complain about the over commercialization of our lives is one thing. But to say that one cannot understand why a Dead head would not want to be a part of it is something else.

It frustrates me because in these discussions it is always necessary to take out the big guns and totally try to annihilate the opponent. Thus, Kenny G is crap and if you listen to it you ought to have your head examined becomes the core of the counter argument. If you or anybody enjoys Kenny G if it gets your wife in the mood, helps you relax with dinner or when friends come over for poker that is fine. Far be it from anyone to complain about anyone's musical taste. That is not, as I have stated several times, NOT at the core of what Metheny is saying. And this again is Pat Metheny saying it, a leading figure in contemporary jazz.

What this discussion has only made me see more thoroughly is the accuracy of Pat Metheny's insight because we seem to be dealing with the repercussions here. Kenny G is not a respected jazz artists who then dabbles in a pop format. He is a pop artist who is trying to validate the quality of his art by giving it an aire of jazz sophistication. This is what pop does. The Beatles used a string quartet and symphonic band. The Moody Blues used a full blown orchestra as even Metallica did. Am I supposed to now have the same level of respect and admiration for Lars that I have for Beethoven? I don't even have the same level of respect for his playing that I do for many of my students. So there is nothing wrong or bad about Metallica. If one wants to listen to Metallica, that is certainly ones prerogative.

The tradition of jazz, and yes it is a tradition, and that is an argument that was settles twenty odd years ago has at its core a series of practices, a rhythmic and harmonic language, traditions of phrasing, and improvisation, a group a standard recordings and compositions. Today, I think what you see is a new generation of artists trying to get away from the canonization of jazz, and see it as fresh and undefined, which could be a reaction against traditionalism. These artists are not doing that in the mainstream of American musical culture, and no matter how many hit records Kenny G had or has, he is not going to change that.
 
Bob, I could have been more readily persuaded to the other end of the argument if I didn't have to read post like this. Jazz does have at its core many a trifle of pop ditties that have become the fodder of its its infernal musical transformation machine. But to read a post like this baffles me.

How could one be a fan of the Grateful Dead and not come to understand that , like most jazz music, The Dead is a part of the counter-culture? The 1960s counter-culture was based on a radical imperative to change the social fabric of American society. Its was anti-war, anti-imperialist, anti-commercialism and anti-what have you got. To not agree with the opinions of those who complain about the over commercialization of our lives is one thing. But to say that one cannot understand why a Dead head would not want to be a part of it is something else.

It frustrates me because in these discussions it is always necessary to take out the big guns and totally try to annihilate the opponent. Thus, Kenny G is crap and if you listen to it you ought to have your head examined becomes the core of the counter argument. If you or anybody enjoys Kenny G if it gets your wife in the mood, helps you relax with dinner or when friends come over for poker that is fine. Far be it from anyone to complain about anyone's musical taste. That is not, as I have stated several times, NOT at the core of what Metheny is saying. And this again is Pat Metheny saying it, a leading figure in contemporary jazz.

What this discussion has only made me see more thoroughly is the accuracy of Pat Metheny's insight because we seem to be dealing with the repercussions here. Kenny G is not a respected jazz artists who then dabbles in a pop format. He is a pop artist who is trying to validate the quality of his art by giving it an aire of jazz sophistication. This is what pop does. The Beatles used a string quartet and symphonic band. The Moody Blues used a full blown orchestra as even Metallica did. Am I supposed to now have the same level of respect and admiration for Lars that I have for Beethoven? I don't even have the same level of respect for his playing that I do for many of my students. So there is nothing wrong or bad about Metallica. If one wants to listen to Metallica, that is certainly ones prerogative.

The tradition of jazz, and yes it is a tradition, and that is an argument that was settles twenty odd years ago has at its core a series of practices, a rhythmic and harmonic language, traditions of phrasing, and improvisation, a group a standard recordings and compositions. Today, I think what you see is a new generation of artists trying to get away from the canonization of jazz, and see it as fresh and undefined, which could be a reaction against traditionalism. These artists are not doing that in the mainstream of American musical culture, and no matter how many hit records Kenny G had or has, he is not going to change that.
I see the culture of Jazz and the Grateful Dead. I understand it. I don't have to be a card carrying member to appreciate it.
Im an independent! I look at things for what they are. I know the difference between Kenny G and Pat M. I don't care what they call the style of music that they play. I don't care if there are people out there that can't tell the difference. It doesn't matter to me. I know, Thats what counts!
 
Well the one thing I've gleaned from this microscopic view of things is..... jazz lovers defend their genre more fiercely than anyone else of any other genre.

As long as the good jazz music is still being made, and the jazz lovers can still get good stuff in abundance, that's all that you can hope for. The rest of the world may be going to hell in a handbasket, (musically speaking) but as long as there is good stuff still being recorded...that's the important thing.

The day they stop making great jazz music....that's when things are really in trouble.
 
Well the one thing I've gleaned from this microscopic view of things is..... jazz lovers defend their genre more fiercely than anyone else of any other genre.

Only a few, actually. The rest are too busy getting on with writing and playing jazz music.
 
I thought that was called Pat Boone syndrome? :p

DED, you're a sharp one! Great piece about PSB here.

However, I've not heard Our Ken produce anything that approaches this work of sheer magnificence! Brings a smile to my face every time :)

Steamer said:
... we are more and more being conditioned and trained to treat music as a form a mere background fooder ...a social form of a pure background/ ignore function and "drug and sedate" the listener without any listener interaction or challenges on that recieving end..... I call it a evil form of a "comfort" zone. That was my point on "elevator music" which is becoming more of the standard "norm" in general society.

A lot of this is due to globalisation, growing world population densities and how these forces have increased competitiveness in every area of every society. People must work longer hours, struggle more to pay exorbitant mortgages, their kids have more needs (eg. out of school tuition and other extracurricular activities, technology), and everything takes longer to do. No matter what you want to do, there's another bloody queue. On a bad day it takes me almost an hour to drive 10 kilometres (6-7 miles) to visit Dad on the weekend.

In this time-poor environment people simply don't have the time or energy to devote to engaging with the arts in a meaningful way. Often they struggle even to engage satisfactorily with their partners and children.

Once people had time to really focus on the arts - to drink deep. Now they don't. The music reflects this. Once people were surrounded by organic things and now we're increasingly surrounded by concrete, steel and plastic. The music reflects this. Kenny G's Prozac plastic pop jazz reflects this. Young people get angry because they are offended by the plastic spirituality around them and we have nu metal comprised of of the ingredients surrounding them - concrete, steel and plastic. Either that or they dive into that pool of molten plastic because that's all they know.

Where's the organic blues and jazz and folk and rock n roll gone? These are musics of nature and human connection (the type that occurs when you have time to connect). They have largely been logged, mined and generally swamped by the sounds of industry. The suits are the high priests of over-populated competition. They are delivering the last rites.

Excuse me while I slip off to the bathroom to slash my wrists lol - no, better to listen to Captain Beefheart again. The song nicely describes the situation IMO
 
Only a few, actually. The rest are too busy getting on with writing and playing jazz music.

Or find time to comment about it and perform it.... both :}

I'm in the studio with one of my projects recording a new acoustic jazz trio CD all day tomorrow and hey don't you have a gig to prepare for now Jay?

Comment AND play on......
 
Or find time to comment about it and perform it.... both :}

I'm in the studio with one of my projects recording a new acoustic jazz trio CD all day tomorrow and hey don't you have a gig to prepare for now Jay?

I've spent the day going over the charts for my set. I had to make some changes, eliminate an intro, re-configure a couple of solo choruses, that sort of thing. It's the work I love to do, getting my hands dirty with the nuts-and-bolts of making a song the best it can be. And when I'm involved with that work I'm light years away from caring about what the public listens to or what Kenny G's doing or what Pat Metheny has to say about it. What good does it do, to be distracted by these issues?

Good luck on your session tomorrow.
 
I've spent the day going over the charts for my set. I had to make some changes, eliminate an intro, re-configure a couple of solo choruses, that sort of thing. It's the work I love to do, getting my hands dirty with the nuts-and-bolts of making a song the best it can be. And when I'm involved with that work I'm light years away from caring about what the public listens to or what Kenny G's doing or what Pat Metheny has to say about it.

Good luck on your session tomorrow.

Thanks!

Good luck on the gig Jay. Should be blast......
 
Stan, This goes out to you.
A few months ago you posted some great vids of your playing.
I sent links to some musician friends of mine that explained that you were a friend on mine whose drumming I admired, Etc.
Keep in mind that only one of these people play jazz.
Everyone commented with polite statements that said something like this. I don't really understand jazz, but it sounded pretty good to me! Yada,Yada,Yada! They all said nice things about you and your band.
The guitar player who studied and plays jazz sent me a seven paragraph email that described in detail everything that he thought that was wrong with the performance!
Of course he didn't say what was correct!
I read the email, Deleted it, and I moved on with my life!
Get my point?
 
Jay and Stan, it's good to see you guys have finally made up. :)

it's amazing to me that this discussion never goes any where. Abe, can now start another thread. are jazz listeners that most rigorous about their defense of the genre
 
Stan, This goes out to you.
A few months ago you posted some great vids of your playing.
I sent links to some musician friends of mine that explained that you were a friend on mine whose drumming I admired, Etc.
Keep in mind that only one of these people play jazz.
Everyone commented with polite statements that said something like this. I don't really understand jazz, but it sounded pretty good to me! Yada,Yada,Yada! They all said nice things about you and your band.
The guitar player who studied and plays jazz sent me a seven paragraph email that described in detail everything that he thought that was wrong with the performance!
Of course he didn't say what was correct!
I read the email, Deleted it, and I moved on with my life!
Get my point?

Sure do Bob.......everyone likes to be or is a critic to some extent or another in life especially musicians in particular I have learned and many are coming at it with a different set of "ears" and experience under their belt, everyone's different.

Can't please everyone since we all have different levels experience and angles to base what we know and feel off and what we personally dig.......

Let the music simply be which could be said in regards to the present discussion and totally get the point you're are getting across as you may have guessed :}
 
Jay and Stan, it's good to see you guys have finally made up. :)

I am not the jazz drummer that Stan is, and anyway musicians are always getting up each others' ass.

But all of us here have a lot more in common than not. So, let's find what it is that we all have in common, I say. And you know what? We're still going to get up each other's ass!
 
I am not the jazz drummer that Stan is, and musicians are always getting up each others' ass.

But all of us here have a lot more in common than not. So, let's find what it is that we all have in common, I say. And you know what? We're still going to get up each other's ass!

Fact be known most members around the same age here I feel are coming from a similar background of being outsiders or rebels musically and socially speaking in the grand scheme of the things..... more in common than we first suspect :}
 
Sure do Bob.......everyone likes to be or is a critic to some extent or another in life especially musicians in particular I have learned and many are coming at it with a different set of "ears" and experience under their belt, everyone's different.

Can't please everyone since we all have different levels experience and angles to base what we know and feel off and what we personally dig.......

Let the music simply be which could be said in regards to the present discussion and totally get the point you're are getting across as you may have guessed :}
I wonder if Kenny G has comments about Pats playing?
 
Fact be known most members around the same age here I feel are coming from a similar background of being outsiders or rebels musically and socially speaking in the grand scheme of the things..... more in common than we first suspect :}

The hilarious thing about a group of rebels and outsiders coming together is we keep getting up each others' arses :) That's why we're outsiders - we've each perfected our own way of being a pain in the arse! So it's miraculous that we've managed to achieve such a level of harmony and mutual understanding in this thread.

Hmm, I don't like this ... it's too quiet ... excellent work, Bob ... damn, Kenny's an awesome JAZZ musician, isn't he? lol
 
I wonder if Kenny G has comments about Pats playing?

"An angry critique of G by the guitarist Pat Metheny has recently been widely circulated on the internet. Metheny is correct but he wastes his time and energy. The music isn't good enough to deserve an intelligent analysis. There's nothing new about the success of dumb music. The fight against vulgar and dishonest music is long lost. Better to spend your time listening to Mozart."

Kenny was too busy driving around Maui in his Maseratti's to comment.
 
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