Interesting discussion during a break at rehearsal

Skitch

Pioneer Member
I had an interesting discussion with a guitar player during a break at a rehearsal. It seems the guitar you hear on Sweet Child O' Mine isn't Slash; it's Steve Lukather (Toto). And nothing much leaves L.A. without his playing on it. Also, Def Leppard didn't play on any of the albums after High and Dry. It was all Mutt Lange writing the songs, playing all the instruments (drums were a LinnDrum) and the band came in and sang the vocals. This is the band Frank Zappa was talking about in his autobiography.

Also, in the 1980s, you didn't have sequences live for Def Leppard to sing and play along to; you had a keyboard player backstage playing samples along to the band so that the band would sound just like the record, as far as the vocals go. I'm not saying that every band did this; I don't think Rush did it as there were noticable differences between live and the recording (A Passsage to Bankok is one). However, most of the hair bands did this sort of thing............UNTIL a band from Seattle (Nirvana) came along and showed that a band of three people could actual produce music which was marketable.

Then the hair bands went back and tried to show everyone that they didn't need the samples. I was told those were some really hard concerts to not get up and walk out of.

Mike

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I've heard the Def Leppard rumour before....or something very similar. Never heard the Slash rumour though. Considering Slash goes to such lengths to talk about how difficult he initially found playing those first eight notes and getting them right first time every time......I'm remaining dubious.

Like all rumour, I demand some sort of tangible evidence before I'll consider it fact. The word of "some guy in an LA rehearsal room" just doesn't cut it for me. If it could be corroborated through another independant source, you'll have my full attention. Until then.....I'll treat it with the same consideration I treat the "Purdie plays Ringo" rumours. That said, actually finding out Lukather had played on anything, would come as little surprise. :)
 
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I've heard the Def Leppard rumour before....or something very similar. Never heard the Slash rumour though. Considering Slash goes to such lengths to talk about how difficult he initially found playing those first eight notes and getting them right first time every time......I'm remaining dubious.

Like all rumour, I demand some sort of tangible evidence before I'll consider it fact. The word of "some guy in an LA rehearsal room" just doesn't cut it for me. If it could be corroborated through another independant source, you'll have my full attention. Until then.....I'll treat it with the same consideration I treat the "Purdie plays Ringo" rumours. That said, actually finding out Lukather had played on anything, would come as little surprise. :)


This story actually reinforces another story from a guitar player in a well-known band which was told to me several years ago. The tracks were not getting done so the producer sent the band home and called in astudio guy and he laid down and fixed the guitar parts that night. When the band came back in the next day, the guitar player said, "Dude, I sound awesome!"

I mean, wouldn't you know if it was your playing or not? I can always tell if it's me or not.



Mike

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I mean, wouldn't you know if it was your playing or not? I can always tell if it's me or not.

I'd like to think so. But then again I've never been "ghosted" on anything I've ever recorded....and if I was, then the guy was that good that he had me cringing in exactly the same spots where I reckoned I could have done it better too. :)

It always makes for interesting discussion though. I'm certainly aware that it goes on and no doubt occurs more than we're aware. But the statement that "[insert player] didn't actually play on that record, it was actually [insert other named studio hand]" is so easy to make without the need for further proof, that my inner skeptic always goes into overdrive.

Oh to be a fly on a studio wall.
 
Here's a pre-production demo of Sweet Child:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A77uMuN1T4M

It's doubtful that if Slash played on this (and it sounds like he did), he would have been so terrible upon recording it for the album that he needed replacement. The studio had no idea how much Appetite would sell; it doesn't make sense that they would hire a top-dollar session player for a project that hadn't yet earned a single dollar.
 
The tracks were not getting done so the producer sent the band home and called in astudio guy and he laid down and fixed the guitar parts that night. When the band came back in the next day, the guitar player said, "Dude, I sound awesome!"

I mean, wouldn't you know if it was your playing or not?
This is the "only" story, I think, that has any credibility ... as it "kinda mirrors the Ace Freley/Bob Kulick/Kiss story. And why Ace was replaced by Bruce Kulick, later on.​
Story goes ... Bob was cutting guitar tracks for a Kiss album, Ace was passed out, in the green room .... at the end of the session ... Bob's leaving the studio ... and as he passes Ace, Freley says something like "how'd I sound, tonight?" to which Bob replied ... "you played better tonight than you've ever played before, in your life" ... or something to that effect.​
Of course, it's well known info. that Ace was asked to leave the band, Bob was asked to join the band, and he, in turn recommended the gig to his brother, Bruce.​
As far as all the "other" stuff ... I'd say BS to all the rest.​
I'm not a guy to "kiss and tell" ... but I went to a lot of shows, in the 80's and 90's ... went to a lot of back stage parties ... those cats played hard onstage ... and maybe played harder offstage .... but that's why people wanna be Rock Stars, in the first place ...​
 
Here's a pre-production demo of Sweet Child:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A77uMuN1T4M

It's doubtful that if Slash played on this (and it sounds like he did), he would have been so terrible upon recording it for the album that he needed replacement. The studio had no idea how much Appetite would sell; it doesn't make sense that they would hire a top-dollar session player for a project that hadn't yet earned a single dollar.

That version is the one I wish they'd recorded. As much as I dislike Axl Rose, his singing here is so much better than the album version. The tempo (a touch slower) is better. The extra guitar chords alongside the vocals add something extra too.

If it weren't for the recording quality, I'd say that this version is better than the commercial version in almost every way!
 
It would take alot to convince me that Slash didn't play on the Appetite album. The lead in Sweet Child is very obviously him IMO. If he did that, I can't imagine why he wouldn't play the intro. LOL

As someone else said, those stories of Kiss having other musicians play on their albums are pretty well known and I think even acknowledged by Kiss themselves.

Also, they almost always hid the keyboard player in the '80s, but believe it or not, they'd usually introduce them to the audience during the show. LOL
 
I believe it was Fred Coury who did not play on any Cinderella albums...at least the early ones...

I have to be honest by the late 80s the hair thing was so bad so many cookie cutter nonsense bands...I remember just laughing everytime a new poster went up at Oasis records and tapes in my college years...

meanwhile I was walking around going to class with my walkman listening to Zappa "Best band you never heard in your Life " Joes garage, and Missing Persons, Brecker Brothers, Ed Mann's solo album, Tony Williams Spring album, Talk to your Daughter by Robbin Ford, and Group 87,.....my listening had zero to do with what was being marketed in mainstream music....

Then Nirvana hit....the early 90s had some real rock and was a fun time to listen again.
 
I had an interesting discussion with a guitar player during a break at a rehearsal. It seems the guitar you hear on Sweet Child O' Mine isn't Slash; it's Steve Lukather (Toto). And nothing much leaves L.A. without his playing on it. Also, Def Leppard didn't play on any of the albums after High and Dry. It was all Mutt Lange writing the songs, playing all the instruments (drums were a LinnDrum) and the band came in and sang the vocals. This is the band Frank Zappa was talking about in his autobiography.

Also, in the 1980s, you didn't have sequences live for Def Leppard to sing and play along to; you had a keyboard player backstage playing samples along to the band so that the band would sound just like the record, as far as the vocals go. I'm not saying that every band did this; I don't think Rush did it as there were noticable differences between live and the recording (A Passsage to Bankok is one). However, most of the hair bands did this sort of thing............UNTIL a band from Seattle (Nirvana) came along and showed that a band of three people could actual produce music which was marketable.

Then the hair bands went back and tried to show everyone that they didn't need the samples. I was told those were some really hard concerts to not get up and walk out of.

There are a lot of these stories floating around, but they are not necessarily all true.

As far as Def Leppard, yes, the drums on Pyromania are machine, and Rick over dubbed cymbals. That's been documented in their VH-1 special. The band admits that. They never denied it.

As far as all the instruments, that doesn't much make sense. They fired their original guitar player because he was too drunk to cut it in the studio, and that's how Phil Colin joined. If no one in the band was playing anything, there would have been no point in making a switch. It is documented on their next album, Hysteria, guitarist Steve Clark didn't play anything (because he was too drunk). They have had guest musicians on their albums, but they're listed in the liner notes.

A keyboard player off stage, yes, well 100's of bands do that. Heck, Ozzy jokes abut it on stage ("I'd like to thank my keyboard player no one ever sees").

Rush never does. Get a front row seat to one of their concerts and you can see Geddy, Alex and Neil play every note, using foot pedals, triggers, and one some songs, Neil triggers keyboard sounds from his pads.

Having studio musicians secretly recording parts for band members goes back the 60's with guys like Hal Blaine playing on the Beach Boys recordings in place of Dennis Wilson. That practice certainly didn't suddenly STOP with Nirvana. Heck, it's how Josh Freese and Kenny Arnoff makes their livings today.
 
And the biggest proof some of these stories are BS is I once had a producer swear up and down Lars Ulrich did NOT play on Metallica's Black album because Lars was too drunk, and it was all Greg Bisonette.

But Metallic put out a VHS tape showing the making of, and Lars recording the songs clearly sober. Of course Lars admits he takes 100 takes and cuts and paste to get it right, but it's still him.
 
it takes him 100 takes AND cut and paste for that?

No comment.

I know Nirvana didn't change that some bands will have ghosting going on wiht their recordings but at least for awhile there the bands were playing their own stuff...gritty rough...real. Not some pretty makeup band crap where the only concern was looks and not sound. Granted Bozzio went though the image thing with MP but also did it while playing circles around people who were using as much hairspray.
 
Am I correct in assuming that some of you have not heard of the "wrecking crew"With some exceptions ..Hal Blaine was your favorite drummer(even though you didn't know it) no matter what band you were listening to.Just about all of Sonny and Cher,Paul Revere and the Raiders,The Association,the Beach Boys,Brian Wilson,the Byrds,the Carpenters,the list goes on.Almost every drum part was Hal Blaine.

Just Google The Wrecking crew.....on the website they have all the musicians union contracts to back up their story as well as interviews with the artists,and producers.And people made fun of the Monkees because they didn't play on their first few albums......they were all doing the same thing.Well almost all.The Rascals played all their own instruments,with an occasional studio guy playing a bass guitar,or an orchestra for certain songs.Dino Danelli was just a great drummer,and one of the reasons I play drums,or attempt to anyway.

Can't wait for the DVD of the documentary to come out.

Steve B
 
One of the best things about the Monkees was the drum set up.....
the-monkees-peter-tork-micky-dolenz-mike-nesmith-davey-jones-4.jpg



I mean...Yaaaahhhhhhooo....how about that???
 
I know Nirvana didn't change that some bands will have ghosting going on wiht their recordings but at least for awhile there the bands were playing their own stuff...gritty rough...real. Not some pretty makeup band crap where the only concern was looks and not sound..

Not really.

The look was changed, but, the concern was still look.

Guys cut there hair and scaled down their drum kits to adapt to the new look. Hundreds of copy cat bands formed, and in a few years, the radio was full of sound a-likes. It was hair metal all over again, just tuned down to D, with flannel instead of spandex, and short floppy hair instead of hair spray.
 
Come on you don't think those bands had just a touch more integrity than the poser 80s stuff? Not taking it from the Marketing side ( which came later as you noted and eventually spun off copycats gallore - Hello Bush..yeah Gavin...Hey "Silverchair" I am taking to you)....but as far as Nirvana, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam....they at least actually were bands playing around for awhile before the wave happened....stuff like Warrent and Cinderella barely qualified as actually being bands.

I agree after the intial wave though there was alot of the usual Music biz machinery nonsense churning out copycats and trying to actually find the next punk band to get them signed.
 
One of the best things about the Monkees was the drum set up.....
the-monkees-peter-tork-micky-dolenz-mike-nesmith-davey-jones-4.jpg



I mean...Yaaaahhhhhhooo....how about that???
When I look at some of the promo pics that I have seen over the years I can't even imagine how they set the drums up that way. It is almost like a cartoon animator drew the pic instead of a photographer shooting it.
Can you imagine what it must have been like to show up at a photo shoot and be told, " just sit here!"
I know that there have been ghost players on many albums and there have been many parts tracked in during a live performance.
It happens!
 
Come on you don't think those bands had just a touch more integrity than the poser 80s stuff? Not taking it from the Marketing side ( which came later as you noted and eventually spun off copycats gallore - Hello Bush..yeah Gavin...Hey "Silverchair" I am taking to you)....but as far as Nirvana, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam....they at least actually were bands playing around for awhile before the wave happened....stuff like Warrent and Cinderella barely qualified as actually being bands.

I agree after the intial wave though there was alot of the usual Music biz machinery nonsense churning out copycats and trying to actually find the next punk band to get them signed.

You're talking smack now. We get it. You didn't like the '80s music. I didn't like the '90s music, but I would never say something so dumb as "Nirvana barely qualified as a band", even though I hated them and think they were about as over-rated as you can get.

Have you ever seen Cinderella live? Despite the stupid name, they are an incredibly talented band playing great blues-based down and dirty rock music. The singer (Tom Kieffer) will play very tasteful piano, harp, lap steel, saxophone, lead guitar, etc... in a single show.
 
I know Nirvana didn't change that some bands will have ghosting going on wiht their recordings but at least for awhile there the bands were playing their own stuff...gritty rough...real. Not some pretty makeup band crap where the only concern was looks and not sound.

You don't think grunge bands were concerned about looks and sound? What do you think would have happend if a grunge guitarist came on stage in a suit and with a brand new guitar, a wall of amps and a huge amount of guitar effects? He would have been killed by his own audience!

Every genre has its own image, grunge included. It's just that part of the grunge image was one that was simple, cheap and easy to replicate, and that kids could use even when they weren't at a rock show. Don't you think sales of flannel shirts and Doc Marten boots skyrocketed in the early 90s? Don't you think that companies exploited that for every last penny it was worth?

Ask the pioneers of any genre and they'll say that they chose their image, style and sound to get away from what was mainstream at the time. This includes grunge, hair metal, punk, hard rock, hip hop, anything. However, it only takes a few months after a band has broken into the big leagues for others to copy their sound and image, making it all just as mainstream as what those pioneers were trying to avoid in the first place.
 
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