jazz ride cymbal question

hey guys i have a question for you about the ride cymbal sticking apttern for jazz, i get confused because i have 2 teachers telling me different stuff. my old one tells me that i do not have to accent all the quarter notes but only the 2 and 4's, whereas my new teacher tells me that i have to accent all the quarter notes and the " n's" have to be ghosted. i am used to playing jazz with the first style Ive been taught, so which teacher's advice am i supposed 2 follow? help would be much appreciated

thanks

i was taught the 4 accents because of the easy forward momentum it has. i found the accenting 2 and 4 more sluggish to my ears. not saying its wrong at all, just in my experience the 4 quarters sounds better than the 2 & 4.

perhaps spending some time listening to jazz records you like might help you. hearing where those drummers feel their cymbal beat and deciding what sounds best to you, and how you want to play.

I would say it is worthwhile knowing how to play both ways as both methods influence the feel. Practice both ways while comping so you don't have to think about it.

so its not wrong to do one or another? because i find it really awkward to accent all of the quarter notes while playing

The method of making the quarters stand out and the "skip beat" softer is more common. The hi-hats are already playing 2 and 4 so there is no need to accent them on the ride unless you are going for a certain effect.

If you are going for an effect, you can accent 2 and 4, or just accent the skip beat.

Jeff

Use each pattern to serve the music you're playing and the feel you're trying to create. I often play four down beat accents for most slow to medium tunes, 2 & 4 for livelier, medium to fast tempos, or skip beat accents if I want to fatten up the groove, or in a group that's really stretching out.

goblinz said:

hey guys i have a question for you about the ride cymbal sticking apttern for jazz, i get confused because i have 2 teachers telling me different stuff. my old one tells me that i do not have to accent all the quarter notes but only the 2 and 4's, whereas my new teacher tells me that i have to accent all the quarter notes and the " n's" have to be ghosted. i am used to playing jazz with the first style Ive been taught, so which teacher's advice am i supposed 2 follow? help would be much appreciated

thanks

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What do the drummers on all your jazz CDs play?

con struct said:

What do the drummers on all your jazz CDs play?

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Good point - and often overlooked. Just listen to what Steve Houghton says about it:

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/houghton_lessons/09HQ.html

Your teacher can guide you only so far. He/she will not take the place of actually listening to and watching drummers play. Everyone's ride cymbal phrasing is just a bit different. I would suggest Ed Soph's DVD Musical Time. He does a great job of explaining coordinated interdependence within a jazz rhythm.

You can also check out the time playing of Peter Erskine, Philly Joe Jones, Elvin Jones, Jeff Hamilton, Sonny Payne, John Riley, Joe Morello - just to name a few.

Jeff

i find that jazz music puts more emphasis on the 2nd and 4th beats as opposed to rock which places emphasis on 1st and 3rd.

That being said, when i play jazz, I tend to place slightly more emphasis on the 1st beat with my ride, just so the other musicians find it easier to keep track of where they are while they comp/solo/blahhhh, especially when I start comping with my hats.

Keep all 4 beats as even as possible, placing slight emphasis on the 1st. But that's just my personal taste. It doesn't really matter, imho, as long as what you're playing suits what everyone else is playing.

groovemaster_flex said:

That being said, when i play jazz, I tend to place slightly more emphasis on the 1st beat with my ride, just so the other musicians find it easier to keep track of where they are while they comp/solo/blahhhh, especially when I start comping with my hats.

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I find that very odd, the idea that any jazz musician would need any help in keeping track of "where they are." That, I must say, is a new one, to me anyway. Not that I know all that much about playing jazz.

con struct said:

I find that very odd, the idea that any jazz musician would need any help in keeping track of "where they are." That, I must say, is a new one, to me anyway. Not that I know all that much about playing jazz.

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It's always nice when the soloist ends on the right beat

groovemaster_flex said:

It's always nice when the soloist ends on the right beat

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Again, you've got me. Why would the soloist need help from the drummer to end on the right beat? What is the "right beat?" You mean the end of a chorus, the last beat of the chorus? Anyway, wouldn't that be up to the soloist? Maybe he wants to end a few beats short of the end of a chorus, maybe he wants to play a few beats over the end of the chorus. From my very limited experience all that is pretty "liquid" in the jazz realm, no?
Sorry, but I'm just having a hard time following what it is you're trying to say. I mean, the whole concept of the jazz drummer needing to help the other players to keep track of where they are in the song, even to the extent of making sure that they end on the right beat, that's a whole new idea to me. Seems like a lot to ask of a little old jazz drummer!

Edit: Back to the original question, it seems to me that each and every jazz drummer has his own unique way of playing the ride cymbal. Isn't that one of the main elements of jazz drumming, playing the time on the ride cymbal? To say that this is the way it's done seems to go against the entire jazz concept of individual expression. I guess the "ding-dinga-ding" thing is fairly standard as a point of departure, but in and of itself that's a pretty easy pattern to play. Heck, even I can play it. How it's played in a jazz context in order for it to be considered "authentic jazz" is a whole other thing and one, I would assume, that is of necessity wide open to individual interpretation.

i'm just saying what i've been taught. i've been taught to keep all beats as even as possible with a slight accent on the first. i'd rather not get into an argument, just stating a possible answer to a question. i am by no means a jazz drummer either, but i AM in university for jazz, and this is what my professor taught me. why would a jazz drummer need to play hats with the left foot on two and four if time is irrelevant? it's just something that's done, it's not necessary, and not done all the time, but drummers do it.

groovemaster_flex said:

i'm just saying what i've been taught. i've been taught to keep all beats as even as possible with a slight accent on the first. i'd rather not get into an argument, just stating a possible answer to a question. i am by no means a jazz drummer either, but i AM in university for jazz, and this is what my professor taught me. why would a jazz drummer need to play hats with the left foot on two and four if time is irrelevant? it's just something that's done, it's not necessary, and not done all the time, but drummers do it.

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You dont accent one. That is a jazz no-no for the most part. Im not saying its wrong, because who am I to say that, but Ive been playing jazz a while now, I go to college for it, and Im just gonna say right now accenting one is not what you want to do. And youre right, why would a drummer have to play hihats on two and four? You dont have to. But one is one of those beats thats gonna give you a marching and stomping through mud feel, it just sucks away the momentum. If you wanna help the soloist find where they are you can lead into the top of the chorus, accent the & of 4, or they can just listen to the bass player for the changes like any good jazz musician does when theyre lost.

unless the bassist is lost too, in which case, everyone is screwed xD

Okay, you guys are kidding, right? Never in my professional career have I been in a situation where musicians "get lost," and I've always consider jazz musicians to be pretty much the best of the best where top-notch musicianship is concerned.
How does a musician get lost anyway? That's got to be the fundamental skill number one when it comes to playing music, knowing how the song goes so you can play it with authority and abandon, no?
If you're playing with some guys and one of the players gets lost, well it seems to me that it's time to get a replacement. Yikes.
I've seen a fair amount of live jazz performances and the improv sections are nothing if not a tour-de-force of mastery of form. Nobody's relying on anybody else to "help them know where they are."
I can see how music students can get lost, but professional jazz musicians? Come on.
You guys are kidding, right?

well that's my point, isnt it?

The person asking clearly isnt a professional, and we're giving him pointers on how to become one. mastering the basics will eventually make him a "tour-de-force", as you so adequately put it.

he is a student, and students get lost. therefore, there are certain things the student must do in order to not get lost. which is what we're trying to explain. we're not all pros like you, and i'm sorry you have to find out this way, but it's true. some of us are still learning. and that's why we post threads like this.

con struct said:

Okay, you guys are kidding, right? Never in my professional career have I been in a situation where musicians "get lost," and I've always consider jazz musicians to be pretty much the best of the best where top-notch musicianship is concerned.
How does a musician get lost anyway? That's got to be the fundamental skill number one when it comes to playing music, knowing how the song goes so you can play it with authority and abandon, no?
If you're playing with some guys and one of the players gets lost, well it seems to me that it's time to get a replacement. Yikes.
I've seen a fair amount of live jazz performances and the improv sections are nothing if not a tour-de-force of mastery of form. Nobody's relying on anybody else to "help them know where they are."
I can see how music students can get lost, but professional jazz musicians? Come on.
You guys are kidding, right?

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Youre kidding, right? Because if youre not, you really have played with the best of the best. No one has ever gotten lost on a tune? How would you get lost on a tune? Its easy, you mix up the changes, forget a change, theres a lot of ways but a good musician can find their way back so they never seem lost. Ive been a gig situations with one rehearsal prior and really hard charts, theres no time to fully absorb the tune, its just time to play it and do what you can with it. But not everyones perfect, s*it happens.

Brad Mehldau quote (in regards to playing odd meters with Jorge Rossy): "There was a lot of (Jorge Rossy) playing in 7, holding it down while I'd get lost and then come around again."

I've been watching this thread for a couple days and finally felt I needed to say something.

Brit is right, don't accent one in the cymbal beat. Ever. Whoever said that to you Flex was wrong. Drummers, nor any other musicians are babysitters, it's not your responsibility to show them where one is or is not. If they don't know where one is, they don't need you to show them, they need to PRACTISE MORE. If you really need to guide them through, stomp the hats on 2 and 4 till they clue in and maybe even drop down to quarters on the cymbal until they have it back.

Second, everyone gets lost, or has gotten lost. Again Brit is right, the mark of a true musician is to make you think they haven't.

The fact is, what works for one may or may not work for another. You should try all the various accents (except beat one) and see what you like. Personally, I think quiet '&'s' sound amatuerish and too much like the antiquated dotted 8th-16th note feel. I like the '&'s'. Each one will have a different effect, 2 and 4 for example will make you sound like a kind of shuffle, like Dannie Richmond with Mingus. But that's just me. You need to figure out what will work best for you, with a band. What effect do you want to achieve?

GB

jazzgregg said:

I've been watching this thread for a couple days and finally felt I needed to say something.

Brit is right, don't accent one in the cymbal beat. Ever. Whoever said that to you Flex was wrong. Drummers, nor any other musicians are babysitters, it's not your responsibility to show them where one is or is not. If they don't know where one is, they don't need you to show them, they need to PRACTISE MORE. If you really need to guide them through, stomp the hats on 2 and 4 till they clue in and maybe even drop down to quarters on the cymbal until they have it back.

Second, everyone gets lost, or has gotten lost. Again Brit is right, the mark of a true musician is to make you think they haven't.

The fact is, what works for one may or may not work for another. You should try all the various accents (except beat one) and see what you like. Personally, I think quiet '&'s' sound amatuerish and too much like the antiquated dotted 8th-16th note feel. I like the '&'s'. Each one will have a different effect, 2 and 4 for example will make you sound like a kind of shuffle, like Dannie Richmond with Mingus. But that's just me. You need to figure out what will work best for you, with a band. What effect do you want to achieve?

GB

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