Wrist damage

L

__Lewis__

Junior Member
I have extreme paranoia about not being able to drum anymore after some serious wrist damage. Possibly, this could be set in motion.

I've been playing on an electronic set for nearly 2 months now, having made the switch from an acoustic set. As a result, I've been trying to replicate the set up of the electric to emulate the (now stored) acoustic. All was well up until a few days ago. I have one crash pad set at face height, with the other relatively flat and low as possible. The tom pads are in a standard 5-piece set up and the hi-hat pad isn't greatly high, but high enough.
Recently, I have started to developed a bit of an ache in my right hand, in the immediate wrist area. If you follow along your thumb with your finger on to the wrist, you'll see how I mean it's on the "top" of the wrist.

Now this is only recent, but a considerable cause for concern, as I don't want to give up this hobby so quickly.

A few things to mention:
- I've played with the moeller technique and after coming to the conclusion that it's uncomfortable I developed a kind of pseudo French/American grip which uses a full arm motion stemming from the elbow. However, I've recently reverted back to integrating more wrist, just not to the extent of the moeller and whip motion.
- Up until recently, I haven't been warming up before playing my electronic set, in which I generally play for a few hours at a time.
- I stretch fairly extensively. It seems that when I "rotate" both sticks in one hand, holding them there with the other, this motion stretches the area I'm concerned with.
- The largest amount of "ache" comes from when I'm riding the hats or ride at anywhere around or above 130 bpm. Granted, I had been using mostly an arm motion and very little wrist. As previously mentioned, however, I'm starting to develop more wrist into action. If you want an example of what I'm trying to go for, and roughly how high my hats are in comparison to my snare:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZJ6lO17DYs
- Lastly, I don't feel any strenuous pain, rather just a tinge and I feel this could lead to issues later down the line and I'd rather nip it in the bud now than deal with the consequences later. When I'm not playing, however, I can vaguely feel the sensation, but it's not causing me any real issues, it's just omnipresent.

So, in conclusion, does anyone have any advice for me to nut out these issues? Preferably, I'd like to utilise a wrist/arm combo as opposed to going back to the moeller technique. Should I also follow my intuition and try to find this arm/wrist balance, along with warming up and stretching to the extent that I would playing an acoustic set.
Speaking of which, I've yet to play an acoustic set yet with this wrist/arm combo, rather just with the arm technique and I have no issues with any aches.

Hopefully you can help!
 
I wouldn't recommend your stretching exercise.
That could twist your wrists to much, leading to Carpel Tunnel Syndrome.
If you want to loosen up, just play fast snare and tom rolls until your wrists and forearms are comfortable.
And I also fear loosing my ability to play the drums to wrist damage.

P.S. Stop Masturbating.lol seriously though.
 
Yeah I would avoid doing too much stretching as stated above (the masterbation bit might be asking too much though!), unless you know exactly what your doing you will probably just exacerbate the problem. Tightness/inflamation in a muscle will disappear with a bit of rest, you could try rubbing a muscle relaxant (I use deep heat) into your hands/wrists before and after you play to relieve tightness, and you could try taking Ibuprofen to reduce any inflammation in the muscles. Technique wise you want to ensure that your staying nice and relaxed whilst you play, I stay nice and relaxed and I still get tightness/ache's from time to time.
 
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Interesting that you decided to give up on Moeller. Many years ago, I developed carpal tunnel syndrome. The doctor was recommending surgery. Yikes! Instead of getting surgery, I signed up for private lessons with Jim Chapin (the world expert on Moeller). After several months, the carpal tunnel syndrome was cured! I don't think the whipping motion itself is what helped me. Rather, I believe that learning to work with the stick's natural rebound is what made the difference.

I recommend that you do 2 things:

1) Take a bit of time off to let some healing occur.

2) Get some private lessons with a hand technique expert. See if you can get lessons with someone like Jim Chapin, Joe Morello, or Dom Famularo. It will cost you some money, and you might even need to travel, but it's worth it. After all, you would take a train or plane to visit your aunt for Thanksgiving, right? Why not do the same thing to get your drumming and your health back on track?

Best of luck.
 
Therma lobsterdore said:
Yeah I would avoid doing too much stretching as stated above (the masterbation bit might be asking too much though!), unless you know exactly what your doing you will probably just exacerbate the problem. Tightness/inflamation in a muscle will disappear with a bit of rest, you could try rubbing a muscle relaxant (I use deep heat) into your hands/wrists before and after you play to relieve tightness, and you could try taking Ibuprofen to reduce any inflammation in the muscles. Technique wise you want to ensure that your staying nice and relaxed whilst you play, I stay nice and relaxed and I still get tightness/ache's from time to time.
Click to expand...

If he wants to keep his wrists healthy, he may have to give up the masturbation!
But I agree with the advice about staying relaxed at your kit.
 
Re: Wrist damage !!! I know...

Well, I am with you, Lewis. I think I'm a lot older than you, but my terrible wrist-hand pain began about 6 years ago. Of course, I had been through major surgery (not my hands) and was taking a lot of meds (including Prednisone, an anti-inflammatory) and was playing in a pretty loud band.
First I got Dupyetrin (sp?) syndrome, thickness in my palm tendons, and then repetitive stress "arthritis." My snare drum thumb was killing me - using standard grip. I changed to straight grip, but it didn't help much. Then I had 2 serious illnesses (lung infection & shingles) which caused so much muscle loss that my strength was gone. Both hands & bass drum toe!

I was in Hand Therapy for 6 months & that helped. But I can't stop using my hands for everything I need to do. I really don't know what to do now.
Any other suggestions out there? Hot/cold water baths (in a large bowl) do help a lot, finish with hot.
-- Joyce
 
__Lewis__ said:
I have extreme paranoia about not being able to drum anymore after some serious wrist damage. Possibly, this could be set in motion.

I've been playing on an electronic set for nearly 2 months now, having made the switch from an acoustic set. As a result, I've been trying to replicate the set up of the electric to emulate the (now stored) acoustic. All was well up until a few days ago. I have one crash pad set at face height, with the other relatively flat and low as possible. The tom pads are in a standard 5-piece set up and the hi-hat pad isn't greatly high, but high enough.
Recently, I have started to developed a bit of an ache in my right hand, in the immediate wrist area. If you follow along your thumb with your finger on to the wrist, you'll see how I mean it's on the "top" of the wrist.

Now this is only recent, but a considerable cause for concern, as I don't want to give up this hobby so quickly.

A few things to mention:
- I've played with the moeller technique and after coming to the conclusion that it's uncomfortable I developed a kind of pseudo French/American grip which uses a full arm motion stemming from the elbow. However, I've recently reverted back to integrating more wrist, just not to the extent of the moeller and whip motion.
- Up until recently, I haven't been warming up before playing my electronic set, in which I generally play for a few hours at a time.
- I stretch fairly extensively. It seems that when I "rotate" both sticks in one hand, holding them there with the other, this motion stretches the area I'm concerned with.
- The largest amount of "ache" comes from when I'm riding the hats or ride at anywhere around or above 130 bpm. Granted, I had been using mostly an arm motion and very little wrist. As previously mentioned, however, I'm starting to develop more wrist into action. If you want an example of what I'm trying to go for, and roughly how high my hats are in comparison to my snare:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZJ6lO17DYs
- Lastly, I don't feel any strenuous pain, rather just a tinge and I feel this could lead to issues later down the line and I'd rather nip it in the bud now than deal with the consequences later. When I'm not playing, however, I can vaguely feel the sensation, but it's not causing me any real issues, it's just omnipresent.

So, in conclusion, does anyone have any advice for me to nut out these issues? Preferably, I'd like to utilise a wrist/arm combo as opposed to going back to the moeller technique. Should I also follow my intuition and try to find this arm/wrist balance, along with warming up and stretching to the extent that I would playing an acoustic set.
Speaking of which, I've yet to play an acoustic set yet with this wrist/arm combo, rather just with the arm technique and I have no issues with any aches.

Hopefully you can help!
Click to expand...

Hmmm.

I'm not sure if this is the problem, but based on the description of where your wrist hurts, I might know what's up.

If you are trying to move your wrist in French-type grip (thumb upwards), you are acting against your body. It sounds like a pulled tendon, from trying to rock your wrist up and down with that particular grip. Strict (palm-down) German grip can also create a tendon problem on the "top" of the wrist in that manner as well.

A natural "wave" motion of the hand is best and reduces any strain to the tendons, since you have a greater range of motion than French or German. Put your arms out like you are playing and let your hands hang down. Wave them like you are waving goodbye to somebody. Feels OK, right? Now, try rotating the hand from the German, palm-down position to French, thumb-up. That rotation gives you more range of motion than either grip by themselves. Maybe this won't be the most practical motion for riding, but you can develop a less restrictive technique by modifying this.
 
I started out with an ache like that...which developed into full-blown tendonosis, which was very painful and isn't entirely gone to this day. But...because I took the time to re-evaluate my technique and learn proper grip, it's going away rapidly.

It's really that simple - if it hurts, you're doing it wrong. I see threads like this posted everyday and honestly, the only real answer is; you're doing it wrong.
 
Checked out your video to analyze a few things (good video by the way).

Posture - you lean forward and have a forward positioned head with increased lordosis (curvature towards the front) of your neck. A lot of this is how you were made but some could change. What's the big deal? Your spinal cord in the neck region gives rise to nerve roots that in turn branch into nerves that supply the arms and hands. Any compression on these can lead to pain in your arms, wrists and/or hands. I cannot diagnose you from here so see a doc or a physical therapist (not a chiro). Also, this may be the problem, it may not.

Repetitive stress is the name of the game for drummers. It was hard for me to fully understand exactly where you have pain and how the stretch was done. Carpal tunnel may be the problem (everybody jumps on that assumption) but my thoughts are with Dequervain's Tenosynovitis: tendonitis of the tendons of the thumb. The muscles originate in the forearm and cross the wrist so pain in the wrist is common. Make an incorrect fist (thumb inside tight clenched hand a la George McFly from Back to the Future) pinky side toward ground. Slowly bend your wrist toward the ground (stretching the tendons of your thumb). Hurt like hell? Positive test. Ice it and rest it. Hopefully that is the spot you are writing about.

Please do not worry about any slowly developing ache or pain ending your passion of drumming. Correct your posture and shore up weak muscles. Ice and rest. As for the possible Dequervain's, you are gripping the sticks too tight. You should drop sticks pretty often (I see some with great hands drop 3-5 per hour and they can play pain free forever). Make changes or these problems will keep coming back.

Take care.
 
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Go back to matched grip, palms down. Go back to moeller, if it's uncomfortable, you're doing it incorrectly. Youtube everything you can about "moeller technique", jim chapin, dom famularo, thomas lang,moeller whip, derrick pope, etc. If done right, no can defense, wait a minute, that's karate kid, okay, if done right, it should actually feel good, and it actually does feel good to the hands and wrists to do jojo mayer style moeller pull-offs.
 
diosdude said:
Go back to matched grip, palms down. Go back to moeller, if it's uncomfortable, you're doing it incorrectly. Youtube everything you can about "moeller technique", jim chapin, dom famularo, thomas lang,moeller whip, derrick pope, etc. If done right, no can defense, wait a minute, that's karate kid, okay, if done right, it should actually feel good, and it actually does feel good to the hands and wrists to do jojo mayer style moeller pull-offs.
Click to expand...

I hope your talking about the wrists, not masturbation. lol
 
LLS,

You're right, I shouldn't have written that. I just noticed it was somewhere around your 3rd or 4th post about wrist damage and master debating. Sorry it came across that way and no, I don't think you are stupid. I was stupid for writing that.
 
Zumba_Zumba said:
LLS,

You're right, I shouldn't have written that. I just noticed it was somewhere around your 3rd or 4th post about wrist damage and master debating. Sorry it came across that way and no, I don't think you are stupid. I was stupid for writing that.
Click to expand...

Apology accepted.
I've come across in wrong ways on here before too, so its fine.
 
MattRitter said:
Interesting that you decided to give up on Moeller. Many years ago, I developed carpal tunnel syndrome. The doctor was recommending surgery. Yikes! Instead of getting surgery, I signed up for private lessons with Jim Chapin (the world expert on Moeller). After several months, the carpal tunnel syndrome was cured! I don't think the whipping motion itself is what helped me. Rather, I believe that learning to work with the stick's natural rebound is what made the difference.

I recommend that you do 2 things:

1) Take a bit of time off to let some healing occur.

2) Get some private lessons with a hand technique expert. See if you can get lessons with someone like Jim Chapin, Joe Morello, or Dom Famularo. It will cost you some money, and you might even need to travel, but it's worth it. After all, you would take a train or plane to visit your aunt for Thanksgiving, right? Why not do the same thing to get your drumming and your health back on track?

Best of luck.
Click to expand...

Efter reading all the posts, this is the one you should listen to! Moeller is the most healing, massaging, feel good exercise gift you can give your hands. The teachers Matt recommends are the right ones, so do it! I have studied with Dom for years, and after the FIRST lesson, my playing was changed forever.

Casper
 
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