Tightness / Microtiming

S

SickRick

Guest
Does anybody have some good exercises to work on tightness and microtiming? Through some recent recordings I've come to realize that my microtiming is really really really bad. Actually it's so bad that I thought about quitting drums for a while.

It seems like everything I play is not exactly where it should be timingwise. Volume and sound is fine, but things are just not as together as they should. Also, there is the issue of dragging or rushing certain parts - not rushing or dragging the whole tempo, more of a one snare or bass hit is out of time. It's really depressing - all the latest recordings were so incredibly bad that I literally think I have to throw up when I listen back.

Now - this seems to be a genral problem of mine and I kinda realize it once it is happening but cannot do anything about it. Then, when listening back it's like "man, what the hell was I doing?". Like I said: I can feel and hear it when I'm doing it, but there is just absolutely nothing I can do to fight it.

Before everybody starts posting "you just have to practise very slow" etc etc.... I do practise things very slow. Today I worked on the Rosanna groove just as an example - played it at 30bpm for maybe half an hour, then brought the tempo up. Recorded after and it still was just as crappy as the day before and what seems like the 10 years before. And I do this very slow thing all the time - it just doesn't seem to help fighting the looseness in my playing.

Any thoughts / suggestions?

One sidenote on this (and I hope nobody will take this the wrong way, I don't want to get in trouble with people): Please, I really hope for advice from people who may have had similar issues and found ways to overcome them. Please don't post answers if you don't know any. Thanks.
 
Look man. I've listened to you playing a fair bit and I can say that you are really tight. I know exactly what you mean - I feel I have the same problem (I have a bit of OCD aswell, which adds to it) but when I watched/listened to you I remember thinking "man I need to get tight like that" lolololol.

I think our ears mature and learn much quicker than our playing abilities. It's the same as any other aspect of our playing (technique - WFD, co-ordination - Thomas Lang). There's always something to be improved and most people are never happy with their abilities in certain, if not all areas.

At the moment, I'm working on Syncopation, at 70bpm, reading the melodies on the snare whilst playing all quarter notes on the bass, hi-hat on 2 & 4 and the jazz ride pattern. Real fundamental stuff. I'm counting triplets out loud and really trying to nail everything, spot on. I was on page 38 for weeks, but now I'm slowly moving on to the next ones. After I've completed all 8 pages I'll go back to page 38 but at 80bpm. Then I'll do it again at 90, and keep doing it until I get to burning tempos. I find that the co-ordination of this exercise is well within my limits, but playing at that tempo, trying to get it perfect, is far from easy.

Show somebody else your playing, and I'd bet they'd love it! (me). It's just because of the nature of the things you're studying, and the intensity with which your studying - it kind of makes your 'microtiming' all you can think about, when it doesn't really need that much thought. I bet you can ask Thomas Lang if he's happy with his co-ordination, and he'd say no. Otherwise he wouldn't keep doing what he's doing. Ask Vinnie if he's happy with his tightness, and he would probably give you a list of things he wants to get together.

I think time is one of those things that, if you're aware of it, is constantly improving. You're probably a better drummer than me, but I can tell by listening to you that you're sounding good and a lot tighter than many other drummers. So I would just say keep doing what you're doing. The laws of the universe state that if you put the effort in, you'll get the results you desire :)

Lloyd.
 
Subdivide subdivide subdivide. My teacher drilled this into me early, and I know Bill Ward talks about it a lot as well.

Just cuz there aren't notes in spaces doesn't mean you shouldn't count/feel those spaces.

Play some quarter notes (doesn't matter where - heck, do all 4 limbs together) and count
8ths/triplets/16ths.

Play some simple 8th note beats and count (out loud) 16th note subdivisions.

With triplets, I'll count "1 ta ah 2 ta ah"
Some people with think "This is stupid" with the whole counting out loud thing...I don't get it. People worry too much...(I was just @ Spaceland last night in Silverlake, and everyone always just kinda stares towards the stage - seemingly worried someone might see them not acting cool...looks like no one is having fun...) COUNT OUT LOUD people! "If [counting out loud] is cool, then I'm Miles Davis."


Getting another "limb" (your head/mouth) involved will tighten up your playing. Also, observing how you move your limbs is another factor. Consistency in movement will give you consistency in time. Of course, I focus more on this in practice situations and not really playing situations - and [HOPE] it carries over(!) I do this a lot with those Kaufman slow-motion exercises I talked about [in that other thread].

A different way to use the metronome... Don't use the clicks as 1,2,3,4 etc. Try playing whatever you're playing (say it's in 4/4) and have the clicks be every 3 beats. Or slow it down and have the click be beat 4 of every bar - stuff like that. Or the upbeats. That'll give you a better feeling/understanding of the spaces around the notes, and the playing-involved-within-the-phrase, etc. I used to do this one a lot, and I'm gonna get back into it (thanks for reminding me!)


Hope any of this helps. Don't want you upchucking during playbacks!
 
So I would just say keep doing what you're doing. The laws of the universe state that if you put the effort in, you'll get the results you desire :)

Lloyd.

Lloyd, thank you very much for your post. I told some of my drumming friends about this problem and they all went like "You??? You are the last person who has to worry about that!". But then in in fact I think that I do have to worry about it a ton. I'm getting so caught up in the idea that everything I play is not grooving, it's scarry. I cannot listen to one of all the old Dreadnut Inc. recordings without getting mad at myself. And it's not that I'm imagining these things - they are real, I hear them and when I slow things down or look at waveforms of my playing in Logic, I can also see it.

I also don't post this to get my ego stroked, I know that some guys here like my playing. But I am really in absolute honesty looking for a way to work on this issue.

Two things you've said are really helpfull / interesting: You said, ears improve faster than playing - this might be true and I hope that through recording myself a lot and listening back, I might improve this.

The other thing is about the effort (the one which I quoted): you know... I would love to put in the effort. I just don't know what to work on. It's so strange.... I know millions of drumming exercises to improve certain things - but not this. This is the main reason why I posted this thread. Just simply slowing things down doesn't help as it seems. Endless repetitions do also not help - it seems like I need to direct my focus on these things more so than I can do right now. But I just plain don't know how.
 
Just cuz there aren't notes in spaces doesn't mean you shouldn't count/feel those spaces.

Play some quarter notes (doesn't matter where - heck, do all 4 limbs together) and count
8ths/triplets/16ths.

...

Thanks Colonel for this advice. Mark Schulmann always told me to "respect the space in between the notes" but at the time I took lessons with him it didn't make sense to me (meaning I didn't understand how to to that).

I do count out a lot, but mostly only when working on new stuff. But it seems like a good idea to do that more often and I'll try it tomorrow.

Exeperimenting with Metronome settings is something I did in the past a lot, but not so much right now. Also seems like a good idea to do that more often.

These are already two things to check out and I'll see what comes out of that.
 
Two things you've said are really helpfull / interesting: You said, ears improve faster than playing - this might be true and I hope that through recording myself a lot and listening back, I might improve this.

The other thing is about the effort (the one which I quoted): you know... I would love to put in the effort. I just don't know what to work on. It's so strange.... I know millions of drumming exercises to improve certain things - but not this. This is the main reason why I posted this thread. Just simply slowing things down doesn't help as it seems. Endless repetitions do also not help - it seems like I need to direct my focus on these things more so than I can do right now. But I just plain don't know how.


Yeah I just got a Zoom H2 and listening to my playing is helping me improve LOADS.

I still stand by my opinion that you're on the right lines with your exercises (like me with my Syncopation). It's such a slow process, even I myself do not know if it's helping, but I'm staying confident and optimistic that slowing things down DO infact help. It's just that progress is so slow, and because our ears are improving faster, we struggle to hear any progress at all!

Colonel is right about the subdividing. How are you with odd subdivisions? (5's, 7's, 9's). The more ways in which you can count/manipulate the space the better IMO!

I've also found when doing my Syncopation exercises that sometimes when I swing, my hi-hat and snare/bass comping is often bang on, but my right hand swing patterns sometimes fall behind the beat, creating an awful, loping imbalance. Maybe think about individual limbs more when you practice these exercises (New Breed! New Breed! New Breed! if you already haven't). I believe that timekeeping at such a 'molecular' level is mostly to do with technique. I don't think you can feel stuff like this, it's precise placement of strokes. Maybe work a bit more on foot technique?

I think it's all good once you get stuck in. Whether you're confident in your practice routine or not, I think it's better to stick at it for a month and see what you get out of it after that time, than to be really fickle and worried and change your practice routine every day or two (trust me, I learned the hard way). I'm reading a really good book at the moment that says something like (paraphrasing) "It doesn't matter if you practice 2 things a day or 10 things a day. It's only important that you practice them EVERY day."

Regards,

Lloyd.
 
Colonel is right about the subdividing. How are you with odd subdivisions? (5's, 7's, 9's). The more ways in which you can count/manipulate the space the better IMO!

I'm pretty good with that stuff. I can pretty much get into any subdivision and play some crazy accents over that.... Like playing septuplets and accenting every 5th note and then changing to every 4th note.... I once was into this kinda thing and if I put in few minutes I can always get back into it even though I don't work on that so much now. My point is not so much timing as it is tightness - getting together what belongs together, getting it really together and getting it together all the time with no little mess ups every 8 bars or so...

I've also found when doing my Syncopation exercises that sometimes when I swing, my hi-hat and snare/bass comping is often bang on, but my right hand swing patterns sometimes fall behind the beat, creating an awful, loping imbalance. Maybe think about individual limbs more when you practice these exercises (New Breed! New Breed! New Breed! if you already haven't). I believe that timekeeping at such a 'molecular' level is mostly to do with technique. I don't think you can feel stuff like this, it's precise placement of strokes. Maybe work a bit more on foot technique?


I've been through the New Breed. What you say about technique seems right and seems to apply. Maybe I should upload some of the things I recorded so you can see and hear what I'm talking about?!

I think it's all good once you get stuck in. Whether you're confident in your practice routine or not, I think it's better to stick at it for a month and see what you get out of it after that time, than to be really fickle and worried and change your practice routine every day or two (trust me, I learned the hard way). I'm reading a really good book at the moment that says something like (paraphrasing) "It doesn't matter if you practice 2 things a day or 10 things a day. It's only important that you practice them EVERY day."

Regards,

Lloyd.

This is very good advice and I'll take it. I was thinking about changing my schedule, but I really believe that I much rather change my focus. Or apply the things the colonel suggested to it. Like counting loud to what I practise and to play around with metronome settings.

Thanks guys, this is really helpfull, I didn't expect this.

Lutz
 
After watching the clip, great groovin by the way, I was wondering if maybe your at the point of being too crtical of yourself. As just an observer of that clip, I personally don't see the problem. I know this response does not help but I just wanted to let you know that maybe the unspoken majority probably sees some real grooving there and not much else.
 
After watching the clip, great groovin by the way, I was wondering if maybe your at the point of being too crtical of yourself. As just an observer of that clip, I personally don't see the problem. I know this response does not help but I just wanted to let you know that maybe the unspoken majority probably sees some real grooving there and not much else.

Thanks for the compliment and once more: I'm not fishing for compliments here. I really am worried about that.

You know the point to me is this: I really want to stick out of the majority as cocky as it might sound. And being critical is the only way to achieve this. These grooves might have been played OK, but it's just not 100% of what I want to be doing. It feels like there are 10% missing groovewise but these 10% are the important 10%. You know, the 10% that seperate good drummers from real good drummers. I know that I can play - it would be really sad if I couldn't after practising and playing so many years. But I want to be better than I am and I feel this is the thing I have to work on the hardest (and endurance which is another story... I get the "iron arm syndrome" that JoJo talks about his DVD on every gig).

I showed this clip to one of my best drumming buddys who is one beast when it comes to playing tight. He said like 3 seconds into the clip: "This is just not even and tight at all, you really need to work on that". He was pretty surprised about that because it was the first time he saw that in me - when I play live the problem doesn't seem to be so predominant. Maybe it's got something to do with the hearing situation on a stage where you have a big monitor and get your bassdrumsound pumped right into your system... However, I want to be able to play even and tight all the time, no matter if its in the studio, on stage or in the practise room. And no matter if I've been warming up for one hour or not.

So to speak: On the spot tightness is what I want - and it feels like I am lightyears away from that.

I will try the counting and metronome settings tomorrow and see if I feel it helps or not.
 
If you don't have the problem whilst playing with other musicians, then you shouldn't be worried about it! I record stuff all the time on my own with a click and I get really worried about how bad it's going to sound on the finished recording, because my time is all over the place. But then the guitars, bass, keys and vocals are all added and they all merge together to create a really organic, great sounding record!

I'll be honest, listening to you solo there, I can see where it's not 'happening' like you describe. HOWEVER, when I listen to your other tunes, I can really feel that groove man, right through my body. That's a way more significant achievement in my book!

Keep working with a click, try to nab all those difficult tempos (I find making swing feel good at the 170-190bpm mark difficult for some reason) and you'll get there. Time is just one of those things that I like to call...the hardest thing in the world .
 
So to speak: On the spot tightness is what I want - and it feels like I am lightyears away from that.

A bit confused here. I'l echo others who really like your groovin. Just an observation, but if you were to play 100% perfect on the spot tight, wouldn't it sound a bit computer like? I don't think it's bad if the music breathes a bit. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding your stated goals.
 
Hey, Lutz

I love the fact that you're humble enough to ask for help on a topic like this. I have been working on the exact same thing. Man, I know just what you mean about cringing when you listen back to yourself. I want to burn every recording I ever made! hahaha

Personally, here's what I think might be happening in your case: It's not that your note timing is "good" or "bad"...it's just that your note timing does not align with what YOU yourself want to hear. That's why you find it so painful to listen to. Meanwhile, everyone else in this thread LOVES the way you play! Still, you are the ultimate judge of your own playing, so here's what I suggest:

Turn on a click. Play 8th notes on the hi-hat with snare on 2 and 4. Put the bass drum only on beat 1. Record yourself for a few minutes. Then listen back and see if everything is aligned the way you want to hear it. If not...if the bass sounds a bit behind the hi-hat or whatever...try to adjust it and record yourself again. Keep doing this until you're happy with your note placement. Then, move the bass note forward by one 16th note. In other words, you will have one single bass drum note in the measure, on the "e" of 1. Again record yourself and see if it lays where you want it to lay. There is so much leeway here. It can be dead center, it can be swung, it can be in-between dead center and swung...it's up to you. The point is that it needs to sit where YOU want it to sit for YOUR signature feel. Just keep recording and tweaking, recording and tweaking until you are personally happy with it.

Then move the bass to the "&" of 1, then to the "a" of 1...etc. Do this with every 16th note spot in the measure. Then, make up combinations such as bass on 1, on the "e" of 2, and on the "a" of 3. Again record and tweak, record and tweak.

You can do the same thing with the snare. Put a backbeat on 2 and 4 with bass on 1 and 3. Then put an extra snare hit on beat 1. Record and tweak. Put an extra snare hit on the "e" of 1. Record and tweak. And so on.

Please know that this is something I myself am working on too. I don't claim to be a guru on the matter. I just have found that the above approach has been helpful to me at times, and I thought maybe you would like to try it. I hope it works for you and makes your note placement sound more how you want it to sound for yourself. In the meantime, take comfort in the fact that outsiders already LOVE the way you sound!

Best of luck, my friend.
 
I have been working on the same thing for my jazz playing. I record myself playing to a track (usually something like Basie). I will notice small things like you are taking about. One thing that really helps in the jazz style is playing through the entire song with triplets on the snare, accenting the notes in the melody. Then I'll go back to recording myself with the track (playing the beat, set-ups, etc.) It will usually seem much better time-wise.

I also picked up a book by Fred Dinkins, although I haven't gone through it yet. It is called "It's About Time." It focuses on pocket playing. Looks really helpful.

http://www.amazon.com/Its-About-Time-Fred-Dinkins/dp/0757914101

Jeff
 
Last edited:
i don't think that you need to stress over your timing, it;s really great, nothing left to be desired, but what helps me is sort of singing the tune as yu play, but for me it's more grunting than singing.
if you dig out records of elvin, he sang along with the tune, an i have heard gadd and jojo do it. i think that if you stress about it WHILE your playing it screws you up.

Listening to yourself hum the tune, or even just feel the vibration of your voice box because you might not be able to hear yourself, can be a great help. It teaches you to really get in sinc with the tune, this is because you become the tune really.

Give it a go, it might work for you.
This might be because i have terrible timing but i think that what funkyjazzer said is true, whenever i listen back to recordings i am not happy, very angry sometimes, and you being a pro, you must work very hard so you are constantly improving, so what you are feeling might be natural?

Bryan
 
COUNT OUT LOUD people!

The Colonel,

While we're on this topic, I got a question. (I hope SickRick doesn't mind I digress.)

I always count out loud. But I noticed people like Billy Ward and Peter Erskine always talk about singing the subdivision, not counting. But for me, particularly in some unfamiliar fills, I sometimes will lose track where I am if I don't count.

Any comment?
 
@Pavlos: No no... I don't want to sound like a machine and I am not afraid this will happen. I also like when recordings "breathe"... I just don't like my studio-feel at all. It seems like I play "incomplete" without other people. I know that the important part is how one sounds like with other people but I think that if I sound complete on my own, it will be even better with other musicians. Right now, I think I sound a bit weak and suspecting that I sound that way whilst playing, I also start to feel weak when playing.

@Matt: Thanks for your answer! I will try this exercise today along with the other suggestions in this thread. I think that simplifying things to a degree that all the messups become very obvious is a very good idea. In the more busy grooves you might hear that things are just not happening but you cannot exactly tell why they are not happening.

@Jeff: I don't even want to think about my jazzplaying right now... it will make me suffer much more than I am already suffering, hahaha.

@Bosphorus: Yes, I like humming tunes also (and god knows that I cannot sing). It's probably a similar effect like the effect the colonel suggested when counting loud.
 
Back
Top