The Grand Master Buddy Rich

Hands down this gets my vote for the stupidest post of the year, and we've still got four months to go.

Yeah, it wasn't a very thought out comment. It's true that morals shouldn't get in the way of examining someone's playing. But personally, his playing never impressed me enough for all the hype he's got; and mentioning the fact that everytime you see him, he acts like such a self-important jerk, just seemed to reinforce the question of why is he so revered.

However, to be completely fair, I'm pretty sure your comment about playing behind and ahead of the beat being a myth, a false concept, gets to take the gold home this year ;) .

Fox.
 
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That's exactly what I said, perhaps you didn't get the sarcasm.
Someone quated Buddy as saying something like he never played outside of the performances, and never practised. As someone who loves the instrument, how could he not play outside performances? So, he just watched TV and picked up girls? Only developed techniques live? Come on...
As someone else said, Buddy was a nice drummer, that played nicely, but he's constantly mentioned as the best by too many people. It's similar to how I feel about Ian Paice, who at least doesn't go around constantly saying to everyone how good he is.


Fox.

I'll just add that I admire many of the greats since i'm no singular Buddy fanboy by any stretch but a seasoned pro jazz veteran who always gives those who deserve it credit for what they brought to the table for the music and instrument with the BS talk around them or their personal lives in a very distant 3rd on the list. Even another one of my all time favorites Jack Dejohnette in an interview said if you want to hear one of the truly great examples of Big Band drumming and how to play and interpret an arrangement as a drummer listen to Buddy on West Side Story was his advice...works for me too.

The clips I recently provided are all the proof needed what he left behind as a a Big Band drummer and with those who use their ears, emotions and intelligence, cutting all the other bias BS issues out of the mix, speaks for itself in my view Fox.

Like I say for those who think it was a piece of cake to set up a large band like Buddy did show us what you have to compare for me and the rest of the musical community to judge on its on individual merits. Actions speak much louder than all the "talk" in the world on a real live stage situation in front of folks or what can be captured by recorded history....... in the end.
 
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I have to admit I'm jaded and love Buddy! He was inspiring. But this about drumming "Evolution". It is all relative. Newton explained gravitation as mass attraction and Einstein as a bend in space-time. Both brilliant and made an outstanding contribution for their day. It is believed Newton probably had a high I.Q. than Einstein. Anyways I would love to clone Buddy's left arm and attach it my body. hee,hee.Both on second thought.
 
If there ever was a drummer who's beyond reproach, it's got to be Buddy Rich first, then it's up for grabs.
 
I loved watching Buddy on Johnny Carson. Johnny was a drummer at heart and you could tell he really admired and liked Buddy. They were hilarious as I recollect. I took Jiujitsu in high school because I saw Rich was into martial arts and I though it might help my drumming. No correlation I should say.
 
A few years ago Art Verdi gave me a home made DVD that had 10 years of Buddy Rich appearences on that old Johnny Carson Show. At first glance you could watch one of those shows and think Geez he's kind of a jerk. But then I watched another, then another, then another and you know what? 90% of that stuff was a routine that had been worked out between Rich and Carson to where both guys knew their role in the gimmick and responded accordingly. It was vaudeville and that's where Rich came from. And Rich's vaudeville gimmick was being a wise guy.

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Yeah, he had his schtick. I also stayed up late to watch him and Johnny and sometimes Ed. It was the link you had the pro world of drumming before youtube came along.

Great story Matt about the trombomist. Thanks for sharing that.
 
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You know when someone says something like " I dont get whats so great about Picasso. I mean, c'mon... he cant even draw a face right", there is no real answer to that.

An opinion about the arts is something, so completely yours ( and valid ) , that it cannot be contradicted.

But a suggestion - here's a good question to ask oneself very quietly before making sweeping statements " Am I missing something"? If the answer to that is no, they bang away, by all means.

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Yeah, he had his schtick. I also stayed up late to watch him and Johnny and sometimes Ed. It was the link you had the pro world of drumming before youtube came along.

Me too, Ken! I remember having to wait impatiently for him to go through all his other guests till Buddy would come on. I'd love their exchanges and you are right, I think they were very good friends and had a schtick going on all those episodes, like an Abbott & Costello.
Buddy had also given Johnny some lessons, I believe.

Yea, that was pre-utube euphoria!

I think the residual impression of Buddy in the public eye comes mostly from those shows and from the 'bus tapes' that have circulated 'wildly' amongst the musician communities.

Not a lot to go on IMPO.

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You are a wise man Aydee.

Buddy.....I am truely staggered......honestly!

Picasso, I'm just not into. That's not to say I don't understand (I'm unwilling to understand....maybe), but I truely don't like. And I see no reason to "study and absorb" him from now until kingdom come, until I do. No one except me will change my mind on that fact........sorry.

Closed book? Perhaps, but it is what it is.

Be careful guys.....no one says we all have to agree. If Fox doesn't like, he doesn't like....accept it and move on gracefully. I don't agree with Fox's summation (it's BUDDY for christ sake, I fail to see how anybody can miss the good), but I'll support his right NOT to like anybody.
 
Picasso, I'm just not into. That's not to say I don't understand (I'm unwilling to understand....maybe), but I truely don't like. And I see no reason to "study and absorb" him from now until kingdom come, until I do. No one except me will change my mind on that fact........sorry.
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Pack your bags, PFG, you n' me are going to Barcelona for some art therapy.

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Not quite the same, PFOG. If you're an artist then it's fair to assume that you are very keen on art. If you are an artist who doesn't like Picasso, you might want to explore what people see in his work because it might open up some enjoyable and useful things to explore.

If you're not an artist and have only a cursory interest in art, who cares? You like what you like, full stop. Learning more about art might enrich your life, but it's no biggie. BTW, Picasso is my fave artist, daylight second :)

Same with the Buddy thing. If you're a drummer, there may be things to be gained from working out what others see in him. Agree that it's a personal choice whether to check out those aspects of playing or to limit your options. After all, there are many other drummers and aspects of drumming to explore.

For me, anyone who plays with Buddy's passion and skill is worth listening to.
 
Polly.......ok, you make (yet another) reasonable point. Now kindly, sod off!! :)

Clearly I'm no match for the wiles of "AD"' and Poll.......a most formidable unison!

Well played. I'll bid a hasty retreat......(to pack my bags for wamer climes.......Barcelona, is it Aydee?)

But, fwiw, this " For me, anyone who plays with Buddy's passion and skill is worth listening to" works for me...........I'm off to peruse Mrs Pocket's art books. :)
 
LOL, Aydee.

My friend, I'm sure you are familar with the old saying "akin to feeding caviar to swine"?

The phrase is "pearls before swine" but I do know what you mean ; )

Have you looked at his blue period? Thats before all the cubist abstractions set in he got into all that funky distortion and poly rhythmic 3D multi dimensional effect that he was eventually known for.

He was quite a different artist then. ( Some of my favorite works by him are actually sketches that his did during that time.. very different but you can sort of see where he was going.. )

Yea, Barcelona would be great. I've never been there. Its the most artistic city in the world! ( I know you're thinking Florence or Paris, but naw... overrated, both places. Everything is in museums....doesn't count ) In Barcelona, there's art & music screaming at you form every corner. The architecture, the paintings, sculpture, flamenco guitars, gypsy music everywhere. Plus they've got the Guernica.

Lets make a plan. what say?

Polly, your turn, Lets double team him.

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PS- I like the point you make about it being enjoyable to listen to stuff thats made up of passion and skill.

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Have you looked at his blue period?

Brilliant!! That's just how I feel when I see his work.......great art to slash your wrists to, perhaps. :)

I've not been there either, it's always appealed though, as it's NOT the place in Spain where I'm expected to run with the bulls. But during this bleak Melbourne winter, I could be easily persuaded to board a plane for an educational trip to sunny Spain on a quest for art discovery........sound good? 'Cos really it's just a ploy to seat myself in a 'bull free' bar in warm weather.
 
Yeah, it wasn't a very thought out comment. It's true that morals shouldn't get in the way of examining someone's playing. But personally, his playing never impressed me enough for all the hype he's got; and mentioning the fact that everytime you see him, he acts like such a self-important jerk, just seemed to reinforce the question of why is he so revered.

However, to be completely fair, I'm pretty sure your comment about playing behind and ahead of the beat being a myth, a false concept, gets to take the gold home this year ;) .

Fox.

See to me this is a totally acceptable post, although I don't agree with all of it. I think had you started with this tone everything would have been cool.


That's exactly what I said, perhaps you didn't get the sarcasm.
Someone quated Buddy as saying something like he never played outside of the performances, and never practised. As someone who loves the instrument, how could he not play outside performances? So, he just watched TV and picked up girls? Only developed techniques live? Come on...

Fox.
Rich played for money almost every day of his life for over 60 years. You have to consider the context. Guys from his era played gigs every single day. They didn't play a 4 month tour, take a year off then go out again. With that lifestyle, why would there be a need to play outside of performances?

I'm also with Stan/ he wasn't my favorite either/I'm Tony Williams, Elvin Jones, DeJohnette, Bonham, Blakey, Morello/ although he's certainly the next guy on my own favorite meter. All my favorites are older or dead guys, although I also really like Blade, Carter Beauford and Nasheet Waits now. But whether he's your maxim hero or not, he's required listening and he's deserving of the highest end respect. I can also say without a doubt that learning a lot of his music made me a much better drummer. Some of you who make these sweeping generalizations should try that sometime. It might alter your perspective.

I think where Rich separated himself from others was in his way of mastering the intense technical concepts musically while still remaining exciting both live and on recordings. Believe it or not intensity is a wholly musical concept, and playing like he did while forwarding that kind of energy is a very special thing. Yeah you hear guys play with a lot of chops, but that broad electrical intensity just isn't there.

He was also the pioneer of big band outlining and to me set the bar for that style. Even a hero like Louie Bellson said it. So that's good enough for me.

I sort of laugh when I hear this continual stuff about the technical evolution of drumming because I just don't believe it. All I honestly hear now are technical variations on the Rich concept. And I think it's fair to say that I've heard my share of technical drumming. IMO Rich was the technical bar, and I'm not buying the he couldn't do today's odd rhythm, polyrhythm etc, etc. Anyone who doesn't think Rich couldn't have convincingly adapted to Dream Theater, or the Virgil Donati things is delusional.

That also includes the technical issues that surround many of the great metal guys I have a lot of respect for. To say Rich couldn't have done that had he decided to doesn't feel right to me. You want to hear the first blast beat? Go to the last drum solo of Channel One Suite from the Mercy Mercy album. That was one bass drum without any technical enhancement played at 3:00 in the morning in a Las Vegas casino after he had already played three shows earlier that night. That thing takes off like the frickin space shuttle. Seriously is there really anyone on the planet with that kind of energy in the tank now?

What further confounds me is how these same people who make technical assesments about Rich's playing are the exact same guys who claim on forums that they don't like so much technique. I always found that fascinating.

I think when considering Rich now it's a taste of the month issue. You see this with guys my age in jazz now who have adopted this busy hybrid version of Jack DeJohnette's playing where the music is sort of enveloped instead of pushed along and where bar lines are blurred not always for artistic purposes but to show to the other guys your age the hipness involved with you knowing how to do that, and are also the same people that say you're playing is boxy when you dare locate beat 1. These are the same guys who sit around the Pepsi machine in music school lounges deciding who does or does not get it. And playing like that sounds cool a lot of the time, but to say the other stuff is some inferior version of what's older is incorrect in my view.

I think Rich's legacy suffers from some of that.
 
Believe it or not intensity is a wholly musical concept, and playing like he did while forwarding that kind of energy is a very special thing. Yeah you hear guys play with a lot of chops, but that broad electrical intensity just isn't there.

Yes. I can't explain the hows and whys but you know it when you hear it. Buddy's playing was electric and sometimes astonishing for its sheer intensity. I am sure that intensity is a direct reflection of his personality, warts and all. It was very honest and straightforward musical expression.

It also suggests a spontaneous, generous spirit. When he performed, he gave everything he had. This is not the kind of person who would mime a one hour show and slink away :)


A Buddy debate and out come all the king's horses and all the king's men and even the king's lady.

There was Buddy AND Picasso ... Boomka, I had no choice!

PFOG gave in so quickly that I now feel a little cheated ... I had the scent of blood and my prey ducked down a rabbit hole :)
 
yes, and that energy did not dwindle with age or heart attack. This is my favorite Buddy chart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBwigXsYA3I

I'd like to say its West Side Story or Time Being, which Stan turned me onto a while back, really cool chart. But I love, Love for Sale.
 
I'm also with Stan/ he wasn't my favorite either/I'm Tony Williams, Elvin Jones, DeJohnette, Bonham, Blakey, Morello/ although he's certainly the next guy on my own favorite meter. ...

I think where Rich separated himself from others was in his way of mastering the intense technical concepts musically while still remaining exciting both live and on recordings. Believe it or not intensity is a wholly musical concept, and playing like he did while forwarding that kind of energy is a very special thing. Yeah you hear guys play with a lot of chops, but that broad electrical intensity just isn't there. ...

Nice point about intensity Matt. That is my favourite aspect of drumming these days. And that's propably the only part I like from Buddy Rich. But still to me Williams does it even better and it's not about the polyrhythms and the notey stuff. It's the sense of dark force of anxiety landing from the dark depths from his soul that I really enjoy. That's the main thing I look for in a drummer these days. How does he make me feel when I listen to him? How does he direct that energy to the band, how does the band respond to it? Really hard concept to talk about especially on an internet forum... This is the sort of stuff that is really hard to teach to anyone. Anyone can have chops because that's teachable and only takes time and dedication but how do you teach someone to put yourself in such metal state that these guys (Rich & Williams) goes through when they play? The absolute best compliment I have ever gotten for my own playing was this older horn player who said to me that it's really rare to see a drummer that is so emotionally invested. I think Buddy is a bit lacking on the emotional side of things (for me) but the intensity sure is there.
 
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