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  #41  
Old 06-02-2011, 02:24 PM
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Default Re: Totally new drum concept, the build journey.

This thread has taken a turn for the verse!
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  #42  
Old 06-09-2011, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: Totally new drum concept, the build journey.

hey KIS!

Good luck with this project. I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing it. Sounds very interesting. I am also planning a kit and know what you mean about things taking longer than they should - it's always the case. Hang in there and good luck with it!!

:-)
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  #43  
Old 06-09-2011, 04:34 PM
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hey KIS!

Good luck with this project. I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing it. Sounds very interesting. I am also planning a kit and know what you mean about things taking longer than they should - it's always the case. Hang in there and good luck with it!!

:-)
Thanks Ami. Yes, it's a long ride, especially as almost every component is bespoke, & the design is as radical as anything in recent years. Coming together now though. I'm travelling to spend a weekend with Dean at Guru, next week. We'll be doing the final assembling & testing. It's a big thing for me. Next weekend I'll know whether I have a viable business opportunity, or just a very good kit. I'm hoping for a game changing result, well, that's my wish anyhow. Might have some production progress photo's available later on today.

What are you building Ami?
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  #44  
Old 06-09-2011, 04:44 PM
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Old 06-13-2011, 07:50 PM
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  #45  
Old 06-13-2011, 09:28 PM
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A teaser photo for you. Putting this up to show the beauty of the wood. 200 year old mahogany brought back to life! Only 1 thin coat of oil, so much sanding & more coats yet to get the final oil finish, plus some more woodwork yet to do. Anyhow, this is one blank end assembly of a little 8" tom. The eagle eyed amongst you will notice there's a few things that are very different going on here. I'm assembling the kit with Dean (Guru Drumworks) for the first time this weekend. Exciting stuff, & a separate "reveal" thread up next week.
Wow. That's gonna make a nice table one day ;)

You should have a pro photog come out and light the kit right and make images of it when its done. I only fly first class, and you can mail the ticket to....
As an added incentive, I'll need two tickets (one for Monique) so she can drape herself across the drums and make them really attractive....
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  #46  
Old 06-13-2011, 10:33 PM
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Wow. That's gonna make a nice table one day ;)

You should have a pro photog come out and light the kit right and make images of it when its done. I only fly first class, and you can mail the ticket to....
As an added incentive, I'll need two tickets (one for Monique) so she can drape herself across the drums and make them really attractive....
Well, I'd love to have you here as my guest Bo, but not at $8,000 for a first class ticket from Calif'. But then, you mentioned Monique, suddenly, the ticket price seems reasonable. Does Larry get to join the photo shoot too?
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  #47  
Old 06-14-2011, 01:09 AM
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Well, I'd love to have you here as my guest Bo, but not at $8,000 for a first class ticket from Calif'. But then, you mentioned Monique, suddenly, the ticket price seems reasonable. Does Larry get to join the photo shoot too?
He has to get himself out there, though. Mo is expensive and has a list of demands written into her contract that must be met with every appearance ;)
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  #48  
Old 06-14-2011, 08:01 AM
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200 year old mahogany...A radical new design....A draped Monique....There's your next Modern Drummer cover!

I'd swim the Atlantic to be at that photo shoot lol.
Bo wouldn't let me near her though, Monique is Bo's babe, right Bo?
I'll drum ya for her lol. No big band stuff though lol. And you have to wear your Mouse suit. Hey I have to use anything I can because Bo knows drumming.

But seriously Andy, that wood is gorgeous! I can't tell if you have 2 separate wooden rings, one inside the other, or if it is one piece. And what is the wood in the background of the photo. I don't see how it is going to tension yet. You did say it was a teaser. Can't wait for the reveal pics. I'm seriously curious to see what you've been hatching...
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  #49  
Old 06-14-2011, 08:39 AM
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200 year old mahogany...A radical new design....A draped Monique....There's your next Modern Drummer cover!

I'd swim the Atlantic to be at that photo shoot lol.
Bo wouldn't let me near her though, Monique is Bo's babe, right Bo?
I'll drum ya for her lol. No big band stuff though lol. And you have to wear your Mouse suit. Hey I have to use anything I can because Bo knows drumming.

But seriously Andy, that wood is gorgeous! I can't tell if you have 2 separate wooden rings, one inside the other, or if it is one piece. And what is the wood in the background of the photo. I don't see how it is going to tension yet. You did say it was a teaser. Can't wait for the reveal pics. I'm seriously curious to see what you've been hatching...
I don't know Larry - if I have to wear the suit that would put me at a considerable disadvantage. And Mo is kinda' her own babe. She's a serious independent. Seriously though, I think Andy's drums are not going to look like drums when he's finished. Maybe they're not for making music ;)
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  #50  
Old 06-14-2011, 09:06 AM
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I think Andy's drums are not going to look like drums when he's finished. Maybe they're not for making music ;)
Oh, they're for making music alright! They're all about the sound. Every aspect of the design is geared towards a specific set of sonic criteria. It's difficult to imagine a more focussed design. The looks are secondary. Ok, we've done our best to get the aesthetic as good as it can be, but we're limited by the constraints of the design. That said, even if you find the looks challenging, the peerless quality will shine through.

This weekend's a biggie for me & Dean. The results will dictate whether we've got a business opportunity or not. If the kit sounds like nothing else you can buy, then we'll go for it. That means big money invested & big personal risk. If we do go into production, some aspects of the design will change to encompass additional features you just can't get on any other kit. I'm both scared & excited in equal measure. If, after this weekend, we've created a kit that's as good as anything else out there, we'll walk away and treat it as an interesting one off. To move forward, it has to be better than anything else, by some margin. Crossing fingers!
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  #51  
Old 06-14-2011, 11:14 AM
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Default Re: Totally new drum concept, the build journey.

I kid Andy. I'm looking forward to what you've come up with ;)
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  #52  
Old 06-14-2011, 12:04 PM
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I kid Andy. I'm looking forward to what you've come up with ;)
I know Bo. As if I'd take you seriously!
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  #53  
Old 06-16-2011, 11:52 PM
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Default Re: Totally new drum concept, the build journey.

Well, the crunch time has arrived. I start my journey in the morning, & I'll be kit building & testing for the next few days. Back on the forum next week. Wish me luck guys!
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  #54  
Old 06-17-2011, 01:24 AM
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  #55  
Old 06-17-2011, 02:12 AM
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Well, the crunch time has arrived. I start my journey in the morning, & I'll be kit building & testing for the next few days. Back on the forum next week. Wish me luck guys!
Wishing you luck, Andy! Dean is doing a great job.
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  #56  
Old 06-17-2011, 03:24 AM
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Good Luck Andy and Dean! Looking forward to the progress report!
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  #57  
Old 06-17-2011, 07:29 AM
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Are they done yet???????
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  #58  
Old 06-17-2011, 09:11 PM
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So you kind of alluded to something above that sounded like you might make a bunch of these to sell, maybe? How many church pews do you have access to salvage that much wood?

I need to find a link, it might of been at ghostnote. But it was someone knowledgeable, who studied the chemistry of aged wood and why vintage wood drums get better with age. The cell membranes gradually crystalize in a way that enhance the resonance in the wood. Yesterday a young fellow at a music store was excited because he had access to a hundred year old maple tree and is going to send it to Vaughncraft to build a snare. I think the age of the tree is redundant, it is the age of the wood after the tree is cut down that counts.

Anyhow, keep us posted on this awesome project. Are those the wood tom hoops above, the design looks confusing, is it more than one, stacked inside each other?
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  #59  
Old 06-17-2011, 11:07 PM
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Default Re: Totally new drum concept, the build journey.

Im really stoked for this kit. I love innovation in musical instruments, and many kudos to yourself KIS and Guru drums for having the giant balls required to sink an assload of money and manhours into something that could tank. However, I dont think its going to be a game changer, I just dont feel it in my plums. Prove me wrong though, these are my words and I would be more than happy to eat them.
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  #60  
Old 06-18-2011, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Totally new drum concept, the build journey.

I saw a bunch of new comments, so I got excited that Andy had posted more pictures since the 13th. But nope.

Darn.
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  #61  
Old 06-18-2011, 02:13 AM
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I need to find a link, it might of been at ghostnote. But it was someone knowledgeable, who studied the chemistry of aged wood and why vintage wood drums get better with age. The cell membranes gradually crystalize in a way that enhance the resonance in the wood. Yesterday a young fellow at a music store was excited because he had access to a hundred year old maple tree and is going to send it to Vaughncraft to build a snare. I think the age of the tree is redundant, it is the age of the wood after the tree is cut down that counts.
I remember that thread - do try to find it again! My teacher has access to a lot of old wood, and he has lots of snares made out of old wood. They have a much more woody tone than newer snares, I guess because the wood is more in the sound.
Have fun on your build!
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  #62  
Old 06-19-2011, 05:24 PM
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I saw a bunch of new comments, so I got excited that Andy had posted more pictures since the 13th. But nope.

Darn.
Hahaha, good one DED. Well, I'm sitting here, completely mentally & physically exhausted after 600 miles of driving & stupid long work schedule over 2.5 days. The drums are sitting in my van right now. I don't even have the energy to take them out of the van. Even worse, I have to go away early in the morning for two days, dammit! So, I'll be back to post new pictures mid - end of the week.

Q) So Andy, what happened? A) Happy stress, that's what happened!!!!! When I arrived Friday PM, Dean had already started assembling the drums. I walked into the shop to be greeted by the most wonderful & individual bass drum I'd ever seen. The joy of seeing your pet project together for the first time, is almost overwhelming. Dean had a big smile on his face too. A minor worry had been the aesthetic, as this is dictated largely by the very challenging design elements, but that worry evaporated at first glance. Visually challenging for anyone used to finding beauty in the familiar? Yes. Butt ugly? No. Box ticked. Although premature, couldn't resist tuning that bass drum up & giving it a go. Holy cow, whoohooo. So much thunder, so much shell tone, & the big surprise, so much projection! This wasn't expected from a drum with such a thin shell. So, the process started with sheer joy & huge expectations for the toms.

The toms: Oh dear, that didn't start well at all. Assembled those on the Friday afternoon. They looked great. The shell tone was good, but not great, & the expected sustain was lacking. This was a letdown compared to the bass drum. Walked away Friday evening to ponder & plan. To be honest, I felt deflated.

Anyhow, early Saturday morning. Dean & I are at the shop early. Both of us had been thinking about the issues all night. Not a lot of sleep was had. So, we set to work. At this time, I'm prevented from describing what we did in detail, due to future business considerations, but I'll tell you what I can. The new design of bearing edge, that features two profiles, worked very well on the larger drums, & has great potential benefits for classic style drums of standard shell construction, but they didn't sing on my smaller sizes. We recut those edges a little, but still featuring the edge positioned right on the inside of drum. The new design bearing edge remains on the bass drum. We also adjusted other elements to free up the resonant qualities of the design. Ok, now try again, whoohoo, now we're talking!!

Ok, so what have we got. Our initial thoughts are we have something quite unique. The shell sound is just so huge it's difficult to describe, & we're comparing that to the very best of stave & steambent drums built by Dean. Big surprise, the attack & projection is great. As for resonance, we're using big mass wooden hoops. We get plenty of sustain, but nothing like the sustain we can get with triple flange hoops. To be honest, any more sustain than we already have would be too much, & detract from the thunderous nature of these drums. The nearfield sound is just so sexy. As the kit's primary design function is to take best advantage of recording & live performances under mic'd conditions, another box ticked.

It's going to take a while for me to mess with tuning & head selection. We've been so rushed with sorting out the fundamentals, we just haven't had the time. On that basis, I'm going to reserve final comments until I'm satisfied I've explored the sonic possibilities. I'll be recording this kit in a few weeks time. Part of that will be a totally natural recording, so you can decide for yourselves. I'll start this with a fresh thread later this week, featuring photo's of the full kit.

Ok, I got my son to take the bass drum out of the van. Couldn't post this without showing you something, huh? Bass drum is 20" x 20" (not that you'd think that by the visual). There's still some cosmetic finishing work to be done, but it's pretty close to finished. Hope you enjoy, & thanks for the interest, Andy.
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Last edited by keep it simple; 06-19-2011 at 08:38 PM.
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  #63  
Old 06-19-2011, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: Totally new drum concept, the build journey.

Holy crap Andy, what have you created? It looks like no other drum in the history of Man!

I think it looks spectacular. I'm still having a hard time wrapping my brain around how you tension it, the heads can be tensioned separately right?

Am looking forward to more more more!
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  #64  
Old 06-19-2011, 05:48 PM
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Now I can't wait to see the full kit assembled and recordings. Even more interested now...
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  #65  
Old 06-19-2011, 06:21 PM
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Holy crap Andy, what have you created? It looks like no other drum in the history of Man!

I think it looks spectacular. I'm still having a hard time wrapping my brain around how you tension it, the heads can be tensioned separately right?

Am looking forward to more more more!
Thanks Larry & Duncan. Yes, the heads can be tensioned separately. There's one hell of a lot of stuff going on you can't see, & regretably, I won't be able to reveal straight away. I'm hoping you like the aesthetic. A lot of thought went into getting something that was potentially a technical visual pig, to look "acceptable" when compared to our collective idea of decades of drum beauty. The exoskelital "chassis" design is meant to echo the old rope tensioned drums of a past era, & is featured on all the drums.

I'd just like to add that Dean is a total star. Not only is he a dilligent craftsman & wood enthusiast, he's very open to trying new things & get's right on board the program. Dean's range of stave & steambent drums are the best in the world imo, so the bar is set very high indeed. It's an honor & joy to work with Dean. He's truly one of a kind. Very few people would have been prepared to take on something so "out there". My design ideas contained a large element of risk.
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Old 06-19-2011, 06:24 PM
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I like the tension rod inserts going directly into the shell. I like that idea a lot. Somebody remarked that it seemed a little like what Peavey did with the Radial series, but this looks like several orders of magnitude more elegant.
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  #67  
Old 06-19-2011, 06:34 PM
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I like the tension rod inserts going directly into the shell. I like that idea a lot. Somebody remarked that it seemed a little like what Peavey did with the Radial series, but this looks like several orders of magnitude more elegant.
Thanks Duncan, I get where you're coming from, but absolutely nothing goes into the shell. For sure, there are echos of radial pro in there. The head tensioning system is very similar, as it's also similar to Pearl's FF snare reso tensioning system. The similarities stop there though, as the real innovation lies beyond view. I wish I could say more, but right now, I can't. Glad you like the aesthetic, & the quality of construction is peerless.
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Old 06-19-2011, 06:36 PM
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I see. Very interesting. I'll keep watching this thread like a hawk!
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  #69  
Old 06-19-2011, 07:01 PM
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Duncan, I was thinking of starting a new thread for the finished kit, as this one is all about the build journey. Maybe I shouldn't, I dunno now!
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Old 06-19-2011, 09:22 PM
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Wow, that is one interesting looking bass drum!

The way the spurs attach to what appears to be a metal harness that's not on the shell (or is it?). Interesting.
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  #71  
Old 06-20-2011, 12:14 AM
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Wow!! That looks sensational. Seriously! Well done Andy - can't wait to hear it!
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  #72  
Old 06-20-2011, 12:39 AM
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If the progress continues the way that KIS and Dean think it's going to... I may be in the market at some point. I'm sort of curious as to how the smaller toms are going to sound with the re-cut bearing edges now... if they sing like that bass drum then I'm definitely going to want one of these.

That bass drum is GAWG-geous if you ask me.
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  #73  
Old 06-20-2011, 01:19 AM
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keep it simple,

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Thanks Duncan, I get where you're coming from, but absolutely nothing goes into the shell. (snip) ...the real innovation lies beyond view. I wish I could say more, but right now, I can't.
Edited to add the following precursor: these are my comments based on visual analysis only. I may be entirely incorrect!

Hmmm. Based on the previous pictures I saw of the "hoop pairs" and based on what I'm seeing here, it looks like each head is tensioned between a set of hoops. In other words, the heads and hoops stand on their own. The shell seems to act as a conduit to conduct sonic energy between the heads, but there is no tension (from lugs or from stretching of the heads) on the shell. I can't tell if the heads actually contact the shell (they may not), but the shell appears to be entirely free-floating and free of any stresses so it can vibrate entirely on its own. Also, the shell looks significantly under size in relation to the hoop/head assemblies.

The initial appearance did cause me to think "egad, what the heck is that", but I got used to it quickly. The look grew on me the more I considered what the implications could be, sonically and musically. And, of course, the build quality, at least as far as I can discern from the pictures, looks very, very good indeed. Maybe you're not at liberty to reveal details of the design, but it sure looks interesting. Kudos to you for such an original approach. I'd love to hear it. :-)

Last edited by TDM; 06-20-2011 at 05:34 AM.
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  #74  
Old 06-20-2011, 04:24 AM
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Fricken Awesome Andy ! Took me two seconds to already see where you can go with this.

I won't sit here and try and diagnose whats going on under the heads and shell but I have a pretty dam good idea and we're gonna make millions! ehhh your gonna make millions !

Aesthetically it is very easy on the eyes, especially the way the heads sit in the hoops and their rounded edges.

One quick question, How is one to clamp the pedal to the drum?

Very excited for you and Dean on this , can't wait to see more.
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  #75  
Old 06-20-2011, 05:13 AM
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Fricken Awesome Andy ! Took me two seconds to already see where you can go with this.

I won't sit here and try and diagnose whats going on under the heads and shell but I have a pretty dam good idea and we're gonna make millions! ehhh your gonna make millions !

Aesthetically it is very easy on the eyes, especially the way the heads sit in the hoops and their rounded edges.

One quick question, How is one to clamp the pedal to the drum?

Very excited for you and Dean on this , can't wait to see more.
Cheers Gary & everyone else who's chipped in. I'm awake stupid early to go work away for a couple of days, so I'll be brief. As for making millions Gary, hahaha, yes, I wish! Seriously, that's not going to happen. The cost of making these drums, even in a production environment, is very high. The super thin stave shells are time consuming to construct, as is just about every other component. If we do go ahead with this, the eventual sales price would be very high, & leave little room for much in the way of profit. The high cost would mean these drums would have limited & specialist appeal. Anyhow, way too early to be thinking about that.

I'm glad the concensus to date is in favour of the aesthetic of the "chasis" design. It's difficult to craft. We have considered using a much more simple set of bars or tubes going from one head assembly to the other. In the opinion of my esteemed drumming brothers & sisters, would such a simple form detract from the visual appeal?
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  #76  
Old 06-20-2011, 05:48 AM
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keep it simple,

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We have considered using a much more simple set of bars or tubes going from one head assembly to the other. In the opinion of my esteemed drumming brothers & sisters, would such a simple form detract from the visual appeal?
For my taste, replacing the cage with simple bars would increase the visual appeal - less metal surrounding the drum allows more visibility for the wood grain, which I think is a good thing. Removing the cage also eliminates sonic diffraction of high frequencies. This might not be a problem with a shell that is primarily radiating low frequencies, but it would be interesting to see if there is an audible difference.
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:31 AM
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Default Re: Totally new drum concept, the build journey.

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keep it simple,



For my taste, replacing the cage with simple bars would increase the visual appeal - less metal surrounding the drum allows more visibility for the wood grain, which I think is a good thing. Removing the cage also eliminates sonic diffraction of high frequencies. This might not be a problem with a shell that is primarily radiating low frequencies, but it would be interesting to see if there is an audible difference.
Thanks TDM, that's very useful, & I agree with your reasoning. As for sonic diffraction, & also sympathetic resonance of metal parts, I was concerned about this too. Initial simple trials suggest these areas aren't an issue, but again, I'll reserve opinion on that until I've heard the results in this kit's intended place of work, the studio. Not a high end studio first time out. Quite the reverse actually, a little local demo studio. Not ideal, but I don't have ideal budget.
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:38 AM
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Default Re: Totally new drum concept, the build journey.

I'm speechless. I can't wait for the pics of the whole kit, the sound files, the video links, the revealing of the new drum shell-constructing technologies, the trip Andy is taking to bring the kit to me...all of it! Can't wait!
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: Totally new drum concept, the build journey.



Mind explosion. This is a great driving change to traditional design!
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Old 06-20-2011, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Totally new drum concept, the build journey.

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Mind explosion. This is a great driving change to traditional design!
Lol, thanks! That's exactly how my head felt on Friday evening.

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Originally Posted by caddywumpus View Post
I'm speechless. I can't wait for the pics of the whole kit, the sound files, the video links, the revealing of the new drum shell-constructing technologies, the trip Andy is taking to bring the kit to me...all of it! Can't wait!
Cheers Caddy! So I'm travelling to your place when exactly, lol?

Photo's up over the next few days guys, but I think I've made a slight aesthetic screwup. The chassis and hardware are black, but that was not the original intention. Don't get me wrong, I think it looks great, but the rack I bought especially for this kit looks very modern, whereas the drums now have a definite retro, almost gothic look to them. Ah well, it's a prototype, & I can always go back to the powder coaters. I think I'll set it up as a classic 4 piece, just as a visual alternative to the fully racked 6 piece for the photo's. As if that isn't enough potential drum porn, I picked up the complete set of dark cymbals to go with the kit too. They're Amedia Dervish unlathed handmade Turkish cymbals, & look wonderful.
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