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  #41  
Old 06-09-2010, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: Sound man knows best?

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Originally Posted by mattsmith View Post
That choice shouldn't even be on the sound man's radar. The sound of your drum is nobody's business but yours and the band you play with. If you don't know what you're doing, then don't get up there until you do.

Here's what I have never understood about this discussion.

1. Band arrives on stage with a particular sound.
2. Sound man amplifies THAT sound.

What's the issue other than some sound men want more than they're supposed to have? IMO it isn't the sound man's job to decide anything of an artistic nature, and even relatively small things like tunings falls under that. Unfortunately a large number of soundmen see themselves as the artistic consultants of the band, and a lot of bands unfortunately allow that. However, I truly thinks this irritates solid pro sound men who want to work with you in a more collaborative manner.

Once again/// a good pro sound man wants you to tell him what your sound is. If you have no clue about that, isn't that the equivalent of pretty much showing up to the gig without sticks?
I agree with this but to cut some sound guys a little slack, most of them don't really want to change your sound. I've played in a few clubs where without reinforcement and some compensation for the issues of the room, I had to alter my tuning and muffling to sound as good as possible in a particular room.

I think this is usually what happens. The errant sound man that oversteps his role is not as common.
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  #42  
Old 06-09-2010, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: Sound man knows best?

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Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
But, I really wonder about this "my sound" thing. Even if you are used to session work, most folks have no real idea what their drums sound like to a live audience... Somebody needs to be conversant in how drums can be made to sound, how the PA can affect that, and how the overall mix of the band should sound. And being at the back of the stage behind the kit is not a place where that can be easily accomplished.
Exactly, and this is why I pointed out the importance of relying on the soundman (if they're good, of course.) The drummer doesn't tell the sound man (or the producer, or the songwriter) how his drums are going to sound... they tell the drummer what they need in order to make the drums sound best (and/or they just do what they want anyway.) They hear things that we don't, and the drummer insisting that their resonant drum be mic'd and they're not going to adjust the tuning or damping if needed, can easily result in a bad drum sound that the sound guy can't control on his own.

It's crucial that the drummer understands why drums sound different depending on where one hears it. I've said dozens of times that a mic hears things differently and inch or two from the head, than we do sitting behind the kit, or from in front. It seems obvious, it's certainly true, yet drummers just seem to disregard that rule of physics.

The only way to begin to get a kit to sound like it does to the drummer's ear, is to mic it from that perspective - with very low overheads. Unfortunately, in a concert setting, the ambience makes this fairly impossible without isolating the drummer, which of course changes the sound yet again.

I'm just not sure why so many drummers think they can shove their drum sound down the sound guy's throat. Apart from the fact that it simply doesn't work in the real world of amplified/recorded music, the sheer arrogance of it makes the drummer less appealing to work with. In this business, the nice guys finish first. Ever met any really successful drummers with an attitude? That's because there aren't very many (I've only met one that I didn't instantly like.) But how many unsuccessful drummers have an attitude about their playing and what they want in music?

Well, there's a reason. Playing music is teamwork. While there are many guitar & piano players who can perform on their own, drummers almost always have to work with other musicians. Let's say that two drummers audition equally well, and one is funny, easy-going, carries a conversation well... and the other is a bit intense (not to be mistaken for confidence.) Guess which one gets hired almost every time? Maybe the intense guy is noticeably better, but the easy guy carries the song well, too. He'll probably still get hired over the better drummer.

Nice guys finish first. Be a nice guy. Work with the sound guy. If he says a drum needs a tweak, do it. There shouldn't even be a question about it.

What do you suppose Vinnie does when an engineer tells him to make an adjustment on a drum? If anyone said "Vinnie tells him 'no'..." then please forget about a career in music.

Bermuda
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  #43  
Old 06-09-2010, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: Sound man knows best?

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Exactly, and this is why I pointed out the importance of relying on the soundman (if they're good, of course.) The drummer doesn't tell the sound man (or the producer, or the songwriter) how his drums are going to sound... they tell the drummer what they need in order to make the drums sound best (and/or they just do what they want anyway.) They hear things that we don't, and the drummer insisting that their resonant drum be mic'd and they're not going to adjust the tuning or damping if needed, can easily result in a bad drum sound that the sound guy can't control on his own.

It's crucial that the drummer understands why drums sound different depending on where one hears it. I've said dozens of times that a mic hears things differently and inch or two from the head, than we do sitting behind the kit, or from in front. It seems obvious, it's certainly true, yet drummers just seem to disregard that rule of physics.

The only way to begin to get a kit to sound like it does to the drummer's ear, is to mic it from that perspective - with very low overheads. Unfortunately, in a concert setting, the ambience makes this fairly impossible without isolating the drummer, which of course changes the sound yet again.

I'm just not sure why so many drummers think they can shove their drum sound down the sound guy's throat. Apart from the fact that it simply doesn't work in the real world of amplified/recorded music, the sheer arrogance of it makes the drummer less appealing to work with. In this business, the nice guys finish first. Ever met any really successful drummers with an attitude? That's because there aren't very many (I've only met one that I didn't instantly like.) But how many unsuccessful drummers have an attitude about their playing and what they want in music?

Well, there's a reason. Playing music is teamwork. While there are many guitar & piano players who can perform on their own, drummers almost always have to work with other musicians. Let's say that two drummers audition equally well, and one is funny, easy-going, carries a conversation well... and the other is a bit intense (not to be mistaken for confidence.) Guess which one gets hired almost every time? Maybe the intense guy is noticeably better, but the easy guy carries the song well, too. He'll probably still get hired over the better drummer.

Nice guys finish first. Be a nice guy. Work with the sound guy. If he says a drum needs a tweak, do it. There shouldn't even be a question about it.

What do you suppose Vinnie does when an engineer tells him to make an adjustment on a drum? If anyone said "Vinnie tells him 'no'..." then please forget about a career in music.

Bermuda
I hear you Bermuda. Unfortunately most of us /including me/ are not in a situation where that hard core pro who a guy like you regularly works with is even close to the norm. This is also why I qualified in all my posts here that working with the good guys is a pleasure.

For example, here in Eastern Europe most guys became sound men because they got tired of fixing cars, saved up enough money from oil changes and bought a board. This is not an exageration. Then these guys show up to huge shows and commit any numbers of crimes including turn you off when they decide you've played too many uptempo numbers. The governmnet arts agency here actually sent 3 guys to Berklee in hopes of bringing professional sound to Romania. Instead when these guys finished the 2 year program they ran away to Holland where they wouldn't have to deal with the other guys.

The common joke here in Bucharest is in the form of a riddle.

Q: When does the gig start?
A: Ask the sound man when he's leaving the house.


And to make that point they will often show up a half an hour into the gig to show you who's the boss. This is the rule not the exception. It's also why everyone here is learning about sound, and refusing to allow it to continue.

Even with all this in play I go out of my way to be cooperative, including most times when the guy laughs at the band, punks the gig and does whatever suits him. Here that happens about 50% of the time. I'm also very easy on the gig. I guess sometimes this is confused with Internet talking where maybe it just comes out differently.

I've also seen this negative routine on TV I've done here and never said a word myself. To me the complaint would be the bandleader's job because I work for him and the network. My opinion in that case is not my call, and in those cases no one hears a word from me. But /with respect / I can hear that it's not getting done when I turn on the show a week later and clearly hear the issues. In fact we all do, and we can only shake our heads. It's also why we pray for the big festival where a Brit or an American is maybe behind the board.

Now I'm certainly not complaining about the bigger picture because I'm doing OK. But not all of us are there yet where we can assume that everyone's on the same page. Truth be known, I'd love to work for or with a great sound man. It's just that they don't travel much outside the main entertainment centers.

Also I hear you on the general advice. I really do and thanks.
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  #44  
Old 06-09-2010, 07:00 PM
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I hear what both Bermuda and Matt are saying. I've worked with sound guys & PA's at both extremes of the spectrum. Essentially, the better the sound guy, the more you leave him alone to do his job. Just as he shouldn't dictate what groove you play, you shouldn't tell him how much gate/EQ/compression, whatever is needed to get your sound. The best you can do is learn something about how your tuning will translate FOH and prepare the kit accordingly. Ok, that's in Bermuda's world. Then there's Matt's world. The best you can do is be as pleasant & accomodating to the sound guy as possible. You get what you're given more often than not. If you're really that bothered about how your band is represented through the PA, the best bet is to get your own soundman. I've done that in the past, & the investment was well worth it.

At the moment, my band runs it's own high quality small scale PA. That gives us great control in gigs upto around 800 audience. We mostly don't use a soundman in such situations (although that's shortly to change). We're lucky though, I've got a good working knowledge of the challenges and our guitarist is a fully qualified sound tech. On bigger gigs (& we're doing a few this summer), we're winging it like everyone else & fully at the mercy of whoever on the desk. Hopefully by then, we'll have our own soundman up to speed.
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  #45  
Old 06-09-2010, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: Sound man knows best?

There was another thread about recording yourself practicing. It is just as important to record yourself on gigs from the audience perspective. Either with a Zoom or some such in the audience, or off the board in larger gigs there the PA dominates.

I have a guitarist friend who does a lot of session work. In fact a lot of the tracks on the early Guitar Hero games (before the original folks decided they wanted to have their tracks used) were him. He had no idea what the video game company was going to use all these exact transcriptions for, but he put a lot of time into tweaking his sounds to make it come out like the original songs. Now one big difference between this guy and your regular hotshot guitarist who could play the licks, is that this guy knows the difference between what his guitar sounds like on it's own, and what it sounds like when it's surrounded by a bunch of other instruments. Say you took something like the Roland multi pedal he used for those sessions and asked a competent guitarist to dial in the sound from some recording. That person may come up with something that sounds very similar in isolation. But when you play it together with everything else, it often takes up too much spectral space, muddies up the mix and loses deffinition. My buddy has mastered the art of anticipating what else will be going on and what he needs to sound like so that when it's all going on at the same time, his instrument will come out like he wants it.

I've sat in on his rig and it sounds really weird to me. But I had an eppifany one night when we did a gig together and because of the way the club was set up, we ended up with our rigs right next to each other. I recorded the gig from between our amps and when I listened to it, dawn broke over marblehead. My rig sounded awesome by itself. Warm and huge sounding. But during the songs, it sounded like there was a blanket over it. All those warm frequencies were being masked by other instruments. Conversely, his sounded like a great guitar tone. He knew were the spaces where and set his rig up to fill only those spaces resulting in a fuller but clear tone.

So you can sit behind your drumset and think it sounds awesome. You can stand in front of it while someone else plays it and think that it sounds awesome. But until you hear it in context, with all the other things going on, you really don't know what the audience hears.

It's like beginners often muffle the death out of their drums because when they play them in the living room, they seem to ring forever. But when you take them to the corner bar and play with a band, the ring doesn't make it into the room. It gets swamped by everything else. More experienced players know this and leave the tampons at home.

But when you get to the next level with a fully miced up kit, things change again. As Bermuda points out, you're now listening to the drums through 1" diameter apertures a couple of inches from some spot on the rim of the drum. And then broadcasting that though a heavy cone and a horn into a room with who knows what kind of cancelation/reinforcement modes.

It ain't gonna be the same.

Last edited by Aeolian; 06-09-2010 at 09:59 PM.
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  #46  
Old 06-09-2010, 10:44 PM
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Default Re: Sound man knows best?

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Exactly, and this is why I pointed out the importance of relying on the soundman (if they're good, of course.) ....
What do you suppose Vinnie does when an engineer tells him to make an adjustment on a drum? If anyone said "Vinnie tells him 'no'..." then please forget about a career in music.

Bermuda
Yes, if they're good of course. But what about when they're bad?

I doubt Vinnie does many low level gigs these days dealing with a sound man who has no qualifications to do sound other than he bought a PA and thought it would be a cool business to get into? Or he was the door guy for the bar, but when the sound man didn't show up one night, the manager said "hey, you do sound now." Or the kid who just graduated from engineer school but had never actually done live sound before. These are all real experiences I've had.

Of course, you're if the guy knows what he's doing, he can tell you "There is a weird ringing sound at xK hrz, can we try some tape on this drum to see if it goes away" vs "your, uh, drums, are loud, can, we like, put a bunch of tape on them cause, like, they ring alot, and it's making it hard for me to figure out what I'm doing."
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  #47  
Old 06-10-2010, 12:29 AM
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Default Re: Sound man knows best?

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I hear you Bermuda. Unfortunately most of us /including me/ are not in a situation where that hard core pro who a guy like you regularly works with is even close to the norm. This is also why I qualified in all my posts here that working with the good guys is a pleasure.
And why I qualified my posts with 'if the sound man is experienced'. You would imagine that at a high level, techs and engineers are automatically of a high caliber, but it's not always the case. Just as sometimes you come across a great guy doing a sound in a club. Same with musicians, there are plenty of excellent players with good musical sensibilities, toiling in obscurity.

But that doesn't mean that a great sound man can turn badly tuned drums into gold. It's a team effort, and there's a certain amount of give & take. But ultimately, the sound guy has the most control, and it never does any good to argue, negotiate, or be obstinate about drum sounds. It doesn't matter who works for who. Whether it's FOH, the LD, monitors, the guy doing haze, the drummer, or the lead singer... everyone works together when it comes to the show.

Bermuda

Last edited by bermuda; 06-10-2010 at 04:37 PM.
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  #48  
Old 06-10-2010, 04:38 AM
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This is turning out to be an interseting thread indeed.....OK, how about this one.

I played a show where our band was the headline act and I allowed the opening band to use my kit. The sound company was great and the soundman was very good. He dialed in a drum check on me very quickly and complimented me on how good my drums sounded and how easy it was to mic them up. I just had them tuned the way I always do, no muffling on the toms or snare. He said he just used a light gate on the toms, that was it. I went out to hear the first band and my drums sounded great. Snare was popping with a touch of verb, toms sounded sweet with great attack and nice tone, kick drum was blowing out cigarette lighters 20 feet in front of the PA speakers. It was awesome.

Fast forward a few weeks to another gig. Different sound company. I had the same kit tuned the same way, everything identical. The sound guy wanted me to tape up my toms or detune the bottom heads, he wanted me to put more muffling in my kick and use an O ring on my snare to take out the ring. I knew I had gotten a killer sound a few weeks earlier, why now do I have to totally sabotage my drum sound, lose the feel on it and try to enjoy the gig like that? I refused to do any of it. I told him I would try some other things. We compromised and I guess I got an OK sound out front, but that was a tough one for me.

Was I wrong in not totally changing the sound and feel of my kit, especially after I knew it could and should sound good the way it was? What do you think?
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  #49  
Old 06-10-2010, 05:59 AM
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When running sound no two scenarios are ever identical. A well rounded sound technician should know a half dozen different ways to obtain the same results just in case his or her tried and proven set-up for some reason just doesn't happen to work out that particular night. Different venues, different room size, probably a vast difference in the amount of people in that room can cause hugh discrepancies in the sound's end results. Add to this different cabinets and the placement of those speakers within the room. Most medium or larger venues usually now incorporate some type of sub woofer configuration to let the crowd actually feel the music's lower dynamics and add to the bass bins sometimes anemic low end. Add to all this as mentioned, a different sound person, probably different microphones and no two sound techs will mic drums identically. All the above happens even before the sound man even touches the sliders. I can understand having the same kit work in one situation and maybe not in another. There are many times I might ask to sit in at a kit and have the drummer go out front and have a listen to what the audience hears. More times than not we work out any problems within minutes after he hears what everyone else will hear. There's no denial that some experienced sound techs have engraved in their minds what the gig should sound like before they even hear the band. This closed mindedness is sometimes more of a hindrance than an attribute.The name of the game is communications and it really helps a lot when the band and the sound tech can communicate using the same language.

This same thing goes for the studio. We'll lay down some tracks and iron out any problems with the kit's sound right there with everyone in the control room. Sometimes a good producer makes for a great arbitrator, lol. It's very difficult for the drummer to be able to scrutinise nuances though a pair of headphones while he's playing his kit. It's been proven to me many times that a musician, either on location or in the studio, will feel more comfortable and a lot of times will play better once they have confidence in the sound engineer who actually have their best interest at heart.

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  #50  
Old 06-10-2010, 10:01 AM
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There's no denial that some experienced sound techs have engraved in their minds what the gig should sound like before they even hear the band. This closed mindedness is sometimes more of a hindrance than an attribute.The name of the game is communications and it really helps a lot when the band and the sound tech can communicate using the same language.
Agree 100%

Another thing about me playing in this part of the world revolves around all the different kits you have to play. Every single gig in the Balkans has a house set, and kits are expected at the festivals. Day to day I never play the same set, while I probably bring my own drums to something every 2 weeks or so. Club owners and festival promoters frown when you bring your own set. The club owner for example doesn't want to give up table space while I make storage space for the kit he bought for his club, while the festival guy wonders why he even made the sponsorship arrangement with the music store for the set nobody wants to use. And frankly those are the #1 guys I want to be friendly and easy going with. Now it just seems logical that I had better have some idea what my actual drum sound should be since I don't have the exacting control that would be assumed from my own drum set.

Besides during those times when you play jazz, you can count the sound men outside of the major venues who know what to do or have even listened to that music with one hand. Granted I have far fewer problems on non jazz gigs, but outside the 5 or 6 largest cities the jazz head scratching is also how it plays out in The States. In Atlanta for example/ an area with 5 million people/ once I left the front door of AIM, I never worked with a trained sound man. Now, I'll bet jazz sound was good at the jazz festival there, but I would also bet that the sound man was imported from somewhere else, or he was a local first call piano player who got tired of what I've been describing, learned sound on his own and decided to work the sets where he wasn't playing himself..

I think this discussion has kind of evolved into an interesting dialogue between the haves and the have nots, while 99% of the time the sound man is in the middle of that discussion, because the great sound man is an accepted regular feature of the haves, while the rest of us have our obvious stories that apparently read close to identical. With that said is it truly reasonable for me to accept as an equal partner in the music created by me a guy who doesn't even try hard enough to perform the basics of his job, while simultaneously never knowing a single aspect of the sound he's hearing?

As has been my regular disclaimer of every post in this thread, I admire and respect good sound men who really want to be part of the cooperative group event. But a good half of the time that aint happening. I just wish these guys on the other side of the coin would get it together, while many of us here also know that the ones who have the seriously bad attitudes are the ones who won't do that. And with great respect to those with other views I think it's OK to assume you're not altogether arrogant, overly intense or less than team players to identify and work towards correcting the weakest link of the chain.

I think KIS's idea about using your own sound man is the best arrangement. And I hope that in 3-5 years I can afford to be one the haves who can do that.
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Last edited by mattsmith; 06-10-2010 at 10:13 AM.
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  #51  
Old 06-10-2010, 12:08 PM
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I think KIS's idea about using your own sound man is the best arrangement. And I hope that in 3-5 years I can afford to be one the haves who can do that.
Matt, I don't want to give the impression my band is in the "haves" camp. We're just starting out as most of the band are born again musos. The sound guy we're taking on is not fully qualified, he's an enthusiastic hobbyist. We're lucky because we have the in house knowledge to train him up. He'll be working the gigs for a share of the pot & a few thank you beers.
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Old 06-10-2010, 12:36 PM
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...

Agree with KIS. Helps to have at least a half -way -house, and in some cases its just a guy who's hung around the band long enough to know the overall sound well, and knows enough soundmantalk to que him in the right direction.

Sometimes there is more than one interpretation of what sounds good. The soundman isnt automatically going to know whats right, though the good ones usually do.
He doesn't know if your Oboe player runs his solo through a screaming distortion unit, or you play your drums with your hands or mallets or if the guitar sound is Scofield- like or Pertrucci-esqe
Happens in recording mixes all the time. Many interpretations. Sometimes each band member has a different point of view.A soundman might have good musical instincts and those are the good ones. A decent sound check and a good brief are usually all they need.

As Bermuda said, each venue is kind of like a new beginning, and what worked at the last gig might not necessarily work here. Its the band's responsibility to use all resources available ( gear, PA, soundman ), to ensure what they intend on stage is what is getting thru to the audience, or at least as close to as possible.

A huge bug bear with me is onstage monitoring. Man, that is never right!! I think it is so so SO critical for any performing unit to hear themselves and each other well in order to do any justice to the music, and nobody quite gets that right IMO. I have to check out the in ear stuff.. does that work well?

...

Last edited by aydee; 06-10-2010 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:40 PM
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In-ears can work just as well but you're still at the mercy of the monitor engineer, I think. I know somebody makes some that alllow you to do your own mix...audio technica? Something like that, plus somewhere to plug in a lapel mic for ambience. Sounds great on paper. I'd love to try it.
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  #54  
Old 06-10-2010, 04:43 PM
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For me, usually all that is needed is some light gates on the toms, no muffling needed
That's the preferred way to keep the toms sounding live and natural, but not every venue has a board with gates, or an outboard unit. In those cases, the sound guy is at the mercy of the gear, and he's forced to ask the drummer to pad the toms for the best sound under the circumstances. In another club with another board, the same kit can be played wide open.

Bermuda
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Old 06-10-2010, 09:49 PM
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...

A huge bug bear with me is onstage monitoring. Man, that is never right!! I think it is so so SO critical for any performing unit to hear themselves and each other well in order to do any justice to the music, and nobody quite gets that right IMO. I have to check out the in ear stuff.. does that work well?

...
Hahaha, if my stage sound was anywhere near balanced, I wouldn't be able to play! So many years of gigging with just the wall of sound as my friend, I've kinda adjusted.

In ear is great, so long as the whole band works with it. Problem with rock gigs is the stage sound can be so high that the ear volume needs cranking up way too high for me. Great on a big stage, or with lower spl's. Even in ideal conditions, I find it a bit clinical. Like the idea of the ambient mic though, that would help. I can imagine the fight over where the ambient mic is placed!
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  #56  
Old 06-10-2010, 11:40 PM
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Rules to live by:

Make friends with the accountant, the caterer and the sound guy!
+1 I have seen so many singers with LSD go off on the sound guy and that just always seemed really stupid to me. Now I am assuming this is a reputable guy doing sound?
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Old 06-11-2010, 01:10 AM
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Default Re: Sound man knows best?

It's apparent that most here don't have a clue about sound reinforcement....

It's not a studio and you are not paying for the time so you sure aren't going to dictate what goes on....

Every room, venue club is different and the same eq settings, gating, reverb cannot be used from venue to venue...

The idea of your own soundman running a 60 channel pro board with all onboard effects is ridiculous at best....

Love to have some of you come to JAXX in Northern Virginia or the 9:30 club in DC and run the systems or god forbid running FOH or SOH in an auditorium/stadium enviroment...

You need to trust that the soundman knows his room and his gear...Nothing like pissing off the guy that is running sound...I can tell you for sure that when we run a board and you give us your "professional" opinion, we are going to make sure you sound like crap..

You're paid by the club owner to perform. You might want to worry more about that than your view on what your drums should sound like out front...

You can play drums in one venue and no eqing/muffling may be required due to the room..

Same thing doesn't apply to the next gig.....

Bermuda is right....



Good luck..
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Old 06-11-2010, 04:25 AM
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I think what is needed is some understanding on the part of the musos of what is going on in front of the stage. Learning how to communicate in the soundman's language what you are after. Working together with an experienced soundman can be a delight if you can communicate with them. Working with an amateur becomes a matter of people skills and being able to convince them how to get things to work.

That does not mean being obstinate about how many hours you've put into tuning your kit to get "your sound" and if the guy can't work with it he must be an idiot. It means developing an understanding of how the rig the soundman is working with and the venue is affecting the sound of your drums. And what you can do with the kit, and what he can do with the rig to get the sound you are after into the audience.

I wish it were as simple as taking the sound that you hear on stage and simply amplifying it. Maybe with a quiet jazz combo, that is possible. But for a loud electric band it doesn't happen.

Besides, consider that many people put tons of time into trying to make their drums sound like their favorite band's drummer. Either on recording or live. Except that it's highly unlikely that they've ever heard the natural acoustic sound of that kit.

Now that you are playing in a venue large enough to mic up and affect the sound of the drums, you may have a chance to get that produced sound you loved. Only all that effort to try and get the acoustic sound of the drums to do it at home or in the rehearsal hall is probably counter productive to what you need.

I highly recommend purusing the ProSoundWeb site and reading what the various varsity and local weekend warrior sound people are writing about drum sounds. Every week there is some newbie starting a thread about the best kick mic who gets promptly told that the best kick mic is "enough rig for the gig" TM, PSW.

Once you understand what is possible with various things and in different kinds of venues, then you may have an easier time dealing with the guy who started out helping carry the equipment in and turned into a "pro" soundman a year later.
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Old 06-11-2010, 04:42 AM
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I can tell you for sure that when we run a board and you give us your "professional" opinion, we are going to make sure you sound like crap..
In my opinion this is why a lot of good sound techs receive bad names. People should work together, not sabotage one another. If somebody knowingly makes a band's performance sound like crap, that sound man is Not a professional. A professional will walk away after the gig knowing that he did the best job that he possibly could. Hold your job in esteem, it's not payback time in the playground. This type of imature mindset floors me.

Dennis
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Old 06-11-2010, 10:10 AM
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You need to trust that the soundman knows his room and his gear...Nothing like pissing off the guy that is running sound...I can tell you for sure that when we run a board and you give us your "professional" opinion, we are going to make sure you sound like crap..

Good luck..
This just made my point in spades. Thank you for your contribution.

And seriously, how would you even know how to make me sound like crap when you don't even know or care about what I want? If I ran into a guy like you I would simply ask for the opposite of what I wanted, knowing I would get the opposite, because your attitude would have already been projected enough for me to know what I was dealing with. And I would probably do it with a smile on my face while you simultaneously joked with your tech assistant about what you were about to do. Do you really think this is anything new?

Interesting too that you would drop the name of a club like the entirely artist friendly 9:30 Club, that has a professional management I know would never tolerate this kind of behavior.

I'm also pretty sure that Bermuda is in support of flat out professional sound men with professional attitudes. What in your comment reads as anything professional? You opened the door here. It's a fair and reasonable question.

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This type of imature mindset floors me.

Dennis
I agree Dennis, but unfortunately/as you know/ many of your colleagues see it this way and they do no one any favors. Also understand that you seem exactly like the kind of person I would love to work with, which means everyone in your field is not like this. So why do nice guys like you allow this kind of attitude to be the prevailing stereotype of your profession? I know you read everyone's stories here. The overwhelming majority of them are identical.

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I think what is needed is some understanding on the part of the musos of what is going on in front of the stage. Learning how to communicate in the soundman's language what you are after. Working together with an experienced soundman can be a delight if you can communicate with them.
This is great advice Aeolian-message entirely received.

But in the meantime what do you do about your pal up there who sees his world much differently? After all that POV does represent a very large segment of your profession, and it's the one guys are complaining about in this thread.
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Old 06-11-2010, 10:24 AM
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It's apparent that most here don't have a clue about sound reinforcement....

It's not a studio and you are not paying for the time so you sure aren't going to dictate what goes on....

Every room, venue club is different and the same eq settings, gating, reverb cannot be used from venue to venue...

The idea of your own soundman running a 60 channel pro board with all onboard effects is ridiculous at best....

Love to have some of you come to JAXX in Northern Virginia or the 9:30 club in DC and run the systems or god forbid running FOH or SOH in an auditorium/stadium enviroment...

You need to trust that the soundman knows his room and his gear...Nothing like pissing off the guy that is running sound...I can tell you for sure that when we run a board and you give us your "professional" opinion, we are going to make sure you sound like crap..

You're paid by the club owner to perform. You might want to worry more about that than your view on what your drums should sound like out front...

You can play drums in one venue and no eqing/muffling may be required due to the room..

Same thing doesn't apply to the next gig.....

Bermuda is right....



Good luck..
This post makes me want to never ever gig again. I'm sure soundmen would be happy though. What right... meh.. forget it. I don't have the words.

I might have to try to get a soundman of our own for our band if the world of pro's is like this. My father's band has made all their instruments themselves, there wouldn't be any way a random soundman could possibly have a better understanding how those instruments sound like. So they have always had their own soundman. And now I know the other side of the story too. Disgusting.
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Old 06-11-2010, 10:45 AM
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The idea of your own soundman running a 60 channel pro board with all onboard effects is ridiculous at best....
Not entirely true. I agree that each venue/PA/board has it's own peculiarities, therefore a soundman with intimate & specific knowledge is preferable, but any quality soundman can account for familiarization pretty quickly. I would certainly prefer a soundman with good working knowledge and a teamsmanship attitude to someone who knows the gear backwards but couldn't give a damn about the resulting sound. As I said earlier, our guitarist is a fully qualified soundman who would have no issues with getting straight on a 60 channel desk and I wouldn't be far behind him. My only issue is that I'm out of date equipment knowledge wise, but the basics haven't changerd that much over the years. We'll be training our own guy up to operate the desk when he's the best option, and to fly the faders when the provided sound guy is a team player.

Having your own sound tech who has an intimate knowledge of the band's material is very useful in all circumstances. They know when the solos are coming, when effects need deepening, adjusting, etc. They are part of the performance, and, as all sound guys should, take huge pride in creating a quality result. How you can regard such added value as "rediculous at best" is beyond me.

I know you've been doing this a while, with the exeption of a long break, so have I. It's clear our approach has been entirely different.
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:09 AM
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... there wouldn't be any way a random soundman could possibly have a better understanding how those instruments sound like. So they have always had their own soundman. And now I know the other side of the story too. Disgusting.
I remember when I was 12 or 13 years old looking at raw 1990 video footage of my dad playing in the horn section of Marshall Crenshaw's Band at the same 9:30 Club pbloxam mentions here. The reason I especially remembered it was because I thought it was wierd seeing Dad in a band like that. So it's easy to recall now. Supposedly Crenshaw was going to use all this for a documentary that I don't think ever happened. Even more interesting than the show itself was the soundcheck. I thought the whole thing was so wild, considering how much went into even a club club gig. It also gave me a fair respect of the work everybody had to do.

I also remember the sound guys in the video going up to both Crenshaw and his warmup band Don Dixon, asking them every question possible, set list, solos, thoughts etc. It was an entirely work with the band vibe and polar opposite to what was just conveyed here.

Not that this even applies to the majority, but I just think there has been the image of a subculture created over time of a guy lording over his 60 channel board with a silly all knowing God complex, that a lot of guys have unfortunately decided was true. In the meantime you'll never get guys like that to see the light because they already know they have the answers you need.
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Old 06-11-2010, 12:47 PM
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Having your own sound tech who has an intimate knowledge of the band's material is very useful in all circumstances. They know when the solos are coming, when effects need deepening, adjusting, etc. They are part of the performance, and, as all sound guys should, take huge pride in creating a quality result.
Agree completely. A band's own sound and light person can add heaps to the impact of a show, just as a bad mix can ruin it.
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Old 06-11-2010, 02:25 PM
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I read every post in this thread and they are slighted towards the soundman not knowing his job, his club, etc and thats usually not the case...

It is usually the lack of the bands knowledge of sound reinforcement and lack of experience playing out...

We have many times only minutes to tear off mics from one kit, get another band set up, mic them and get a quick sound check and start rockin...

Do that with 3 to 4 bands a night 5 to 7 days a week and see what your outlook is on the subject

Not the same thing as a band playing 4 sets and is a regular at your club..You can develop intimate relationships with the band, absolutely!!! You learn their material and its sounds great...

That also is great if they sound good..More often than not, they don't...

Kinda like being a teacher. That one student who shines makes the effort seem all worth while...Thats the way I feel..

For every 10 bad sounding bands due to drums out of tune with 5 year old heads on them, guitars out of intonation, guitarists with louder stage volume than the mains and refuse to turn down, singers who are out of key all espousing serious sound reinforcement knowledge to boot, that one great band makes you forget the rest..

Most bands may play your club only that one time... Maybe due to a lack of followers and an empty club, management isn't asking them back...

I know most clubs around here sporting stacked double 18 bins on each side and stacks of speakers on , running a 50k board with enough power amps to blow every driver in the house is going to let your buddy who hung around practice and runs your 16 channel Mackie board jumping on theirs...

You can usually see in a few minutes who is going to be able to handle it....

If I offended anyone, sorry, but this is business and I look at it as business, not some artsy view point...

Peace!!
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Old 06-11-2010, 02:52 PM
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I read every post in this thread and they are slighted towards the soundman not knowing his job, his club, etc and thats usually not the case...
Not every post. I've been careful to offer a balanced view IMO.
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I have to be fair to sound guys here though. I know how to get my kit sounding just right for PA applications. I have different tunings for acoustic & mic'd. I make it real easy for the sound guys because I know exactly how to generate the sound I want. The only compensation I ask for is auditoruim related and I carry my own specific mics if the PA company's aren't up to the job. Believe me, that kind of preparation is rare.

Most sound guys have to deal with something that sounds like crap, yet the drummer expects it to sound like something off his favourite album. Essentially, crap in, crap out. The poor engineer having to deal with multiple acts & quick changeovers usually sets everything to default "build it up from the desk" setting. I know that's not how it should be, but it is the norm. .
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I know most clubs around here sporting stacked double 18 bins on each side and stacks of speakers on , running a 50k board with enough power amps to blow every driver in the house is going to let your buddy who hung around practice and runs your 16 channel Mackie board jumping on theirs...
You're mostly right on that. Handling a rig with lots of headroom, & a desk + outboards with very advanced features is a journey away from small band PA. The expertise that sit's in my band is the exception though. In the past, I've still found that our own sound guy has proven invaluable in fostering main sound guy familiarization with the band's stuff, & any pro sound guy worth dealing with has been equally receptive of the heads up. That cooperation is only possible though when the band/band's sound guy really know what they're doing and communicate that respectfully.

Here we are talking about big rigs. The average band's interface with such gear is infrequent and such rigs normally come with a sound guy who really knows his stuff. The average interaction is with the local PA hire company who's been brought in to do an event, or the club system guy who's mostly not that interested in his craft. It's those guys who can bring down the reputation of the engineer's craft. Again, there's good & bad out there. I've seen really good PAs operated by superb guys, let down badly by crap acts with a crappy attitude. Equally, I've seen superb acts let down badly by poor systems and/or good systems controlled by idiots
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Old 06-11-2010, 03:15 PM
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Default Re: Sound man knows best?

A bit of tough love from pbloxam, but he's right.

Unlike guitar, bass or keyboard players who largely control their sound before it even hits the board, the acoustic drummer has to be more realistic about the relationship of his drums on a particular stage and in a particular room, and the sound guy being able to make them sound best that night. A lot of drummers get it and have very few issues, but others still struggle with the concept of someone else having that kind of ultimate control of the drum sound. But that's just how it is.

And because the sound hinges so much on the sound guy, it's just as important that he's experienced, and that the gear is capable of tailoring sounds as needed. It's a team effort, everyone works together. If there's a weak link - or a deliberate attitude - then the results will suffer, and shows will be wildly inconsistent. On a larger scale, this is why touring bands carry their own production and crew to handle sound, lights, monitors, etc. But even 'local' bands who work a lot and rely on sounding great each night, will, at the very least, have their own sound guy and p.a.

For those of us who are playing clubs* and are at the mercy of the sound guy there, the last thing we should do is make demands with the person who 1) knows what our drums sound like better than we do, and 2) can just as easily enhance the sound as allow the drums to continue to sound poorly.

Bermuda

* BTW, between tours I play more than my share of clubs with several bands in L.A. and So Cal, and I always let the sound man know that if there's anything he needs from the drums or me, just ask. Most of the sound guys don't know - nor should they care - that I'm also doing national tours in theaters, sheds, and arenas. Every venue is different, and I always want to sound my best.
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Old 06-11-2010, 03:19 PM
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But for those of us who are playing clubs and are at the mercy of the sound guy there, the last thing we should do is make demands with the person who 1) knows what our drums sound like better than we do, and 2) can just as easily enhance the sound as allow the drums to continue to sound poorly.

Bermuda
While in most cases (with different bands and soundmen) you are propably right. But what if I _really_ know my sound and the soundman just doesn't. What then? I know I have put an awful lot of time to get my sound excatly like it is and I would hate someone to tell me that it doesn't sound the way HE likes it and then changes it to some kind of pop rock abomination just because he can and there's nothing I can do about it.
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Old 06-11-2010, 03:30 PM
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I read every post in this thread and they are slighted towards the soundman not knowing his job, his club, etc and thats usually not the case.!!
Let's keep it honest here. Bermuda's points carried more weight than anyone else's here and he was going out of his way to sway guys to respect the soundman in the best possible way. I then considered his thoughts and felt like I had overreacted. Then I read your original post and remembered why I had that original pov. Can't put smoke back into a bottle man.

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It is usually the lack of the bands knowledge of sound reinforcement and lack of experience playing out..
.
Yeah, I have no doubt that you deal with some real characters. But I think you've made it very clear that your perspectives are going to reign universal regardless of who's there. And again, if you're really working with bands at the 9:30, you can rest assured that most of them are sophisticated enough to know what they want. Problem is I doubt you've asked.

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We have many times only minutes to tear off mics from one kit, get another band set up, mic them and get a quick sound check and start rockin...

Do that with 3 to 4 bands a night 5 to 7 days a week and see what your outlook is on the subject..!!
Why are you complaining? We get to be in the music business. This is a good thing. Your problem is you don't see this as the music business. You see it as the sound reinforcement business. You're probably the same guy who never really listens to the bands he's working with because you think you're too busy.

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INot the same thing as a band playing 4 sets and is a regular at your club..You can develop intimate relationships with the band, absolutely!!! You learn their material and its sounds great.
But if it's a one shot deal then you're the boss, huh?

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That also is great if they sound good..More often than not, they don't..
How would you know? Seriously, how do you gague quality?

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Kinda like being a teacher. That one student who shines makes the effort seem all worth while...Thats the way I feel....
I think everyone here already knew you saw yourself as the musician's teacher from your opening statement. Curious, what is the criterion for pleasing you enough so one may shine to your expectations?

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Originally Posted by pbloxam View Post
For every 10 bad sounding bands due to drums out of tune with 5 year old heads on them, guitars out of intonation, guitarists with louder stage volume than the mains and refuse to turn down, singers who are out of key all espousing serious sound reinforcement knowledge to boot, that one great band makes you forget the rest.....
.
Agreed. As previously said You must have to deal with real characters.

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Most bands may play your club only that one time... Maybe due to a lack of followers and an empty club, management isn't asking them back.
..
I don't know, seeing how important it is, would it ever be because of bad sound coming from those who don't please you? I mean after all you've already all but admitted to sabotaging the sound of some bands.

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You can usually see in a few minutes who is going to be able to handle it..
Feeling's mutual

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If I offended anyone, sorry, but this is business and I look at it as business, not some artsy view point...
Peace!!
Quote of the thread and the one most revealing. Man, let's understand something. That artsy part is why you exist. That's the business of it.

We can continue to do what we do without sound men, but certainly it would suck. But without the music itself/whether it's live or recorded/ you have nothing but a lot of gear and a bad attitude.
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Old 06-11-2010, 03:40 PM
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I know I have put an awful lot of time to get my sound excatly like it is and I would hate someone to tell me that it doesn't sound the way HE likes it and then changes it to some kind of pop rock abomination just because he can and there's nothing I can do about it.
Assuming the sound man is experienced, he's not going to put his sound on your kit. In the most basic sense, he's there to amplify elements of the band that require 'reinforcement' (ie; a screaming guitar amp probably doesn't need to be mic'd, but the drummer's kick does.)

But it's also his job to mitigate anomalies in sounds - whether acoustic or a direct signal - for a pleasing sound in front. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but the mics hear your drums in a way you can't - period. Do you know what your snare and toms sound like an inch from the head? What the kick sounds like at the reso head, or inside? I guarantee that the sound guy does!

It's important that we get the drums sounding the way we like them, and it's even more important to understand that they sound different to mics, and that adjustments may need to be made. Would you really insist that your drums to sound great to your ears, but ringy and thin out front? You've got to rely on the sound guy to make them sound the way you intended. And very often, he can also work a lot of magic on a kit that doesn't start out sounding so good.

Bermuda

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Old 06-11-2010, 03:40 PM
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Back in the 70s there was a great prog band out of Fort Wayne Indiana called Ethos. They gave their soundman full billing as a member of the group. When they did a concert he was on a raised platform out in the audience with spots on him. He did amazing things that added to the sound of the band without stepping on their musicianship at all.
Good sound techs often go under-appreciated. If you find someone that can work with your band and knows what you like, consider yourself a lucky drummer and let him or her know that you like what they did with your sound.
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Old 06-11-2010, 03:52 PM
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While in most cases (with different bands and soundmen) you are propably right. But what if I _really_ know my sound and the soundman just doesn't. What then? I know I have put an awful lot of time to get my sound excatly like it is and I would hate someone to tell me that it doesn't sound the way HE likes it and then changes it to some kind of pop rock abomination just because he can and there's nothing I can do about it.
Then take it one step farther. Suppose he's the guy that jokes he's going to screw up your sound on purpose? After all it only takes one, and that's most likely why they go largely underappreciated when they do a job well done.

I agree jimtyler to count your lucky stars for that good guy, and yeah I know there are many out there.
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Old 06-11-2010, 03:54 PM
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Back in the 70s there was a great prog band out of Fort Wayne Indiana called Ethos. They gave their soundman full billing as a member of the group. When they did a concert he was on a raised platform out in the audience with spots on him. He did amazing things that added to the sound of the band without stepping on their musicianship at all.
Good sound techs often go under-appreciated. If you find someone that can work with your band and knows what you like, consider yourself a lucky drummer and let him or her know that you like what they did with your sound.
Yes, good engineers are gold. Last year we had a gig where the guy who ran our rehearsal studio was doing the mix. It was his system, set up permanently at the place.

He took complete control and we trusted him because we know he's a cluey guy.

The stage sound was fantastic, and people said the FOH was good too. Afterwards I told him how I loved the bright, clean sound he gave us and he replied, "That's what I do - bright and clean" :)

Definitely someone we'd use again.
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Old 06-11-2010, 04:47 PM
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Assuming the sound man is experienced...

It's important that we get the drums sounding the way we like them, and it's even more important to understand that they sound different to mics, and that adjustments may need to be made. Would you really insist that your drums to sound great to your ears, but ringy and thin out front? You've got to rely on the sound guy to make them sound the way you intended. And very often, he can also work a lot of magic on a kit that doesn't start out sounding so good.
I'm one of those people whose playing is very different when the sound changes. So you just couldn't throw some pillows inside my bass drum and expect me to play exactly like I did without them. I think it's because of the degree of improvisation I'm involved in right now.

I completely agree that we should communicate with the soundman how we would like our kit to sound to the audience and he should try his best to achieve that in the current acoustic enviroment and gear. But I think what Matt is trying to say is that sometimes that communication fails for some reason or other and sometimes the soundman just isn't experienced enough to have that kind of communication with. I'm not saying it's always the case and I think it's much to do with how remote a location we are talking about. But Matt is playing in eastern europe, me very locally in small places here in north eastern europe. So how to deal with that sort of situation? Just let the soundman ruin your sound and even worse your gig to further alienate each of the two people who were there for your music anyways?
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Assuming the sound man is experienced, he's not going to put his sound on your kit. In the most basic sense, he's there to amplify elements of the band that require 'reinforcement' (ie; a screaming guitar amp probably doesn't need to be mic'd, but the drummer's kick does.)

But it's also his job to mitigate anomalies in sounds - whether acoustic or a direct signal - for a pleasing sound in front. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but the mics hear your drums in a way you can't - period. Do you know what your snare and toms sound like an inch from the head? What the kick sounds like at the reso head, or inside? I guarantee that the sound guy does!

It's important that we get the drums sounding the way we like them, and it's even more important to understand that they sound different to mics, and that adjustments may need to be made. Would you really insist that your drums to sound great to your ears, but ringy and thin out front? You've got to rely on the sound guy to make them sound the way you intended. And very often, he can also work a lot of magic on a kit that doesn't start out sounding so good.

Bermuda
I hear what your saying. I really do. I also rarely see a lot of zero rings and moon gel on big stages at shows I have attended and I don't see them much in any of the myriad of concert vids I have yet about every local sound guy at least asks about muffling toms. I just don't know where the reality lies. I mic drums in my studio all the time. I know what they sound like to a mic. I have never muffled a tom to make a mic happy. Certainly I use some on the kick and sometimes a little on the snare. I am left thinking that the real answer is that the muffling is about tuning problems most of the time at least.
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:39 PM
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Default Re: Sound man knows best?

Okay, here's some tips on keeping the temperature down. Find a good soundman that you like and work out some of these things with them.

Make up a good stage plot. Nothing screams pros or losers to a soundman than a good or crazy stage plot. Folks on the PSW post lulu's from time to time and everyone gets a laugh. They also post some winners and everyone jumps in thinking that band must have been a delight to work with. All from the professionalism of their stage plot.

Working with your trusted soundman, work up a mic list and outboard rider that is appropriate to the kinds of venues you play at. This is the time to show your practical experience. Don't list Royer mics or Drawmer gates because you read about them somewhere when you are a local 5 band a night showcase kind of outfit. If there is a kick mic that works well with your drum and your band's sound list it. Audix D6 preferred. AKG D112 preferred. That will give a soundman some clue as to what you are trying to sound like going in. Even if he can't provide that mic, they should understand that your going for a modern or traditional sound.

Advance the gig. Contact the sound provider and/or soundman. Give them your stage plot and set list. Go over what you do and how you normally sound. If you have a demo, give one to him so he can hear what you are trying to do and see that he's not dealing with wannabe clowns. Maybe the demo won't be practical on the 5 band pay for play showcases but try to at least have a conversation with the guy a few days before the gig. Then when you show up, give him another copy of your stage plot and set list. He may or may not be organized enough to have them at hand, but he will remember the advance effort you put in and try to work with you.

Even a loser wannabe sound dude will react positively to being treated like a pro. Some guys in small clubs may never have actually been given a stage plot. But it's a good chance they've been on the live sound forums and seen discussions of them. So when you show up with one, suddenly he feels like he's in the big time, working with pros, and will be more receptive to "advice" on how to make everything else work.

As I said before, working with an amateur soundperson really comes down to people skills.
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Old 06-11-2010, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: Sound man knows best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
I hear what your saying. I really do. I also rarely see a lot of zero rings and moon gel on big stages at shows I have attended and I don't see them much in any of the myriad of concert vids I have yet about every local sound guy at least asks about muffling toms... I am left thinking that the real answer is that the muffling is about tuning problems most of the time at least.
Good tuning is certainly a must, and sadly, too many drummers believe that as long as a drum - toms in particular - sounds good to the ear, it will automatically sound good to a mic. It's not much of a stretch to make slight corrections without seriously affecting the acoustic sound, but the drummer has to admit that a correction often must be made. I welcome the opportunity to have my drums sound great out front, and I make adjustments as necessary when asked. I don't consider it an afront to my tuning ability or professionalism, it's just part of making things work.

An actor doesn't just start acting... they need a director. The director decides when the actor's doing a good job, and the actor relies on that director to know when he looks good. Of course, there are bad directors just as there are bad actors, but assuming everyone is good at what they do, that interaction is crucial to a good scene.

As for gell/tape/etc on toms, I rarely start out with any except in the studio where I will put my ear an inch from each drum to hear what the mic hears. On tour, I rely on our sound guy to use gating effectively to control decay, and if there's a weird harmonic that he hears (and obviously I don't,) I trust him to help me make the appropriate correction so my kit sounds good for the people who paid to get in.

Bermuda
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Old 06-11-2010, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Sound man knows best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith View Post
Let's keep it honest here. Bermuda's points carried more weight than anyone else's here and he was going out of his way to sway guys to respect the soundman in the best possible way. I then considered his thoughts and felt like I had overreacted. Then I read your original post and remembered why I had that original pov. Can't put smoke back into a bottle man.

.
Yeah, I have no doubt that you deal with some real characters. But I think you've made it very clear that your perspectives are going to reign universal regardless of who's there. And again, if you're really working with bands at the 9:30, you can rest assured that most of them are sophisticated enough to know what they want. Problem is I doubt you've asked.


Why are you complaining? We get to be in the music business. This is a good thing. Your problem is you don't see this as the music business. You see it as the sound reinforcement business. You're probably the same guy who never really listens to the bands he's working with because you think you're too busy.



But if it's a one shot deal then you're the boss, huh?


How would you know? Seriously, how do you gague quality?



I think everyone here already knew you saw yourself as the musician's teacher from your opening statement. Curious, what is the criterion for pleasing you enough so one may shine to your expectations?

.
Agreed. As previously said You must have to deal with real characters.

..
I don't know, seeing how important it is, would it ever be because of bad sound coming from those who don't please you? I mean after all you've already all but admitted to sabotaging the sound of some bands.


Feeling's mutual



Quote of the thread and the one most revealing. Man, let's understand something. That artsy part is why you exist. That's the business of it.

We can continue to do what we do without sound men, but certainly it would suck. But without the music itself/whether it's live or recorded/ you have nothing but a lot of gear and a bad attitude.
Big chip on your shoulders hun???

I only stated what I know and feel.. I have never sabotaged someones sound but definitely didn't put much effort into working with arrogant musicians who want to tell me how to run sound when they can't beat their way out of a wet paper bag or tune their drums or play in time with the other musicians.

It's a regular occurance in clubs....

I stand by what I said, no sugar coating, no stroking, zip!!

PS. Bermuda wasn't going out of his way, he was stating fact....

Peace!!
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Old 06-11-2010, 07:22 PM
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Default Re: Sound man knows best?

I think perhaps there might be a few areas where sound engineers need the assistance of a drummer to get the best result...for example, when I was observing these pro engineers recently I offered to help out with the sound of the rack tom in the hire kit. The engineer advised me to put lots of gaffer tape on the resonant head (I can't even remember why now), but as somebody who knew about tuning drums I knew that there was probably a better way of approaching this problem, which he would never usually come across as a live engineer. That's where cooperation would come in very useful. Nobody is ever going to completely understand someone else's job if they don't do it themselves in the same environment, we can all learn things from each other.
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Old 06-11-2010, 07:44 PM
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Default Re: Sound man knows best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbloxam View Post
Big chip on your shoulders hun???!!
Read your first post man. That pot calling the kettle black gimmick doesn't work. Your shoulder chip crack is nothing but 1990's e speak for I can't think of anything to say. Are you further under the impression that the extracted out of context quotes so they appear more arrogant, are new to a forum conversation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbloxam View Post
I only stated what I know and feel.. I have never sabotaged someones sound but definitely didn't put much effort into working with arrogant musicians who want to tell me how to run sound when they can't beat their way out of a wet paper bag or tune their drums or play in time with the other musicians.!!
Then why say this:
I can tell you for sure that when we run a board and you give us your "professional" opinion, we are going to make sure you sound like crap..

Come on stand behind your words. You know you've done it or you wouldn't have bragged about it.

Oh yeah/// when you say that guy : can't beat their way out of a wet paper bag how do you personally make that judgement? Do you make that judgement for the club? Again, just curious.
The reason I ask is that I've heard a little of your playing before and it's credible music. But do you really think it's on a level to match these rather spectacular and demeaning comments about your fellow musicians? And yeah that would be the part some of the rest of us could make a judgement about. I thought the way you mic your kick drum was also revealing. I know there are people who like that sound but the feeling certainly isn't universal. Frankly, had I heard all that plap,plap boomy bass drum while I was playing it would have driven me up the wall. See, you really don't have all the answers, and I think this is where the real chip actually lies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbloxam View Post
I stand by what I said, no sugar coating, no stroking, zip!!!!PS. Bermuda wasn't going out of his way, he was stating fact....
There's a guy on this board named tommycanharme that you might enjoy conversing with. He sees the world a lot like you.

You know, I thought I recalled some of your exacting comments on youtube as well. You made this one right?

Buddy was the king in his day, but was dethroned long ago...Buddy could not pull off 1/3 of whats happening on this video...Buddy Rich was a one trick pony.... Big Band....
Big Deal....


Frankly I want a more knowledgable sound man capable of hearing better than the guy who made this rather naive comment.

Why not try to read a little more carefully next time. I stated my respect for the credible soundman in every post, while you stated that anyone who didn't agree with your view of the world was any number of things. What exactly did I miss?

PS add on- I know I sound snarky here but there are some comments and viewpoints here that I really can't believe.
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Last edited by mattsmith; 06-11-2010 at 08:23 PM. Reason: the PS add on///
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