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  #41  
Old 04-21-2009, 10:29 PM
MNdrummer21 MNdrummer21 is offline
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

I think the colonel's post was quite insightful. One must play judiciously and adapt as the situation demands it, and if that means augmenting the music with a simple groove or bombastic fills, then so be it.

Last edited by MNdrummer21; 04-23-2009 at 04:42 PM.
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  #42  
Old 04-21-2009, 10:35 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

This has the makings of groove vs chops saga part 929693220....

Isn't overplaying subjective...I've heard people say Vinnie overplayed with Herbie and this was on a "Vinnie is God" forum....Herbi looked like he was having the time of his life hearing the chopfest on drums....

Same thing said of Weckl but thats what I want pay to see, someone push the envelope in a musical situation....If I want pocket then I'll check out Jordan of Ferrone but thats not what I want to see.....

Now overplaying and just bad playing are two different things...If the fills were rushed and the timing was all over the place then thats just a bad drummer thinking hes all that trying to show off...
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  #43  
Old 04-22-2009, 06:27 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by Bosphorus View Post
every drummer should record himself and listen, REALLY LISTEN!...i have thought i played great stuff many a time, but afterwards i realised that i was playing on the off beat too much ( i do that alot!)......it's a great tool
This is a great tool! It always makes me judge myself like a do others, and as a listener will judge you. Good call!
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  #44  
Old 04-22-2009, 07:42 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

Well when I look at the videos from my last show it's obvious to me that I was underplaying. I may have been a little too loud in parts but all in all I could have done a lot to be more in charge of the beat. I seemed along for the ride rather than pushing the others along ESPECIALLY because our singer backed out and we had to play as an instrumental group. That's not to say I feel I played poorly, I played the parts well but there was more that could and ultimately should have been done.

Wish I knew then what I know now *shrug* live and learn.
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  #45  
Old 04-22-2009, 08:51 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by CavGator View Post
I'll go with numbers one and two. No need to hit the drums very hard, IMO. That leads to loss of control. I'd replace "hard" with "confident." Make sure your strokes are confident and sure. They need not be stuck hard.
Yeah, that's the word I was looking for.
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  #46  
Old 04-22-2009, 02:43 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

I think there is no such thing like playing too much or less is more or playing on a 3 piece set or on a 10, 0000 Tom Tom set.
Its all personal preference and self expression. some like it, some dont.

Keith Moon played like there is no tomorrow, some liked it, some didnt.

Charley Watts plays simple beats on a 4 piece and makes millions than who sweats on a
10, 0000 tom tom set showing off his chops every now and then.

To me, it depends on the song , own personnel preference, how each person view drumming.
There is no right or wrong side.
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  #47  
Old 04-22-2009, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Pasquini View Post
Well when I look at the videos from my last show it's obvious to me that I was underplaying. I may have been a little too loud in parts but all in all I could have done a lot to be more in charge of the beat. I seemed along for the ride rather than pushing the others along ESPECIALLY because our singer backed out and we had to play as an instrumental group. That's not to say I feel I played poorly, I played the parts well but there was more that could and ultimately should have been done.

Wish I knew then what I know now *shrug* live and learn.
Good points, especially about being "in charge of the beat." Depending on the genre and setting, different musicians in the band will need to take charge of the music at different times to move the music forward. A drummer who is too timid when he should be flashy is as bad as a drummer who is too cocky when he should be holding back. Monster chops and groove-oriented simplicity each have their time and place and a good musician knows when to apply each.

It is the job of the drummer to light a fire under the ass of the rest of the band. Sometimes it's just a Bic lighter and sometimes it's a flamethrower and you have to know when to apply each.
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  #48  
Old 04-22-2009, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
It is the job of the drummer to light a fire under the ass of the rest of the band. Sometimes it's just a Bic lighter and sometimes it's a flamethrower and you have to know when to apply each.
You put this very well. I saw a band recently that demonstrates just how important a good drummer is to a band. This particular band has 2 drummers but drummer #1 does a set on rhythm guitar and then plays the rest of the sets on drums. Meanwhile drummer #2 steps out front as a vocalist. Drummer #2 is a much better vocalist than he is a drummer. When drummer #1 switches from rhythm guitar to drums the band goes from a good band to an amazing band. I asked the band leader why they don't just have drummer #1 on drums the whole time and it boils down to drummer #2 was the original drummer and it is better for his voice to not be lead vocalist for all 3 sets and instead play drums and sing backup for the first set. Plus Drummer #1 wants to learn guitar. An outstanding drummer can make a good band turn into an amazing band.
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  #49  
Old 04-22-2009, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

[sarcasm] Everyone who plays anything but a single BD beat on 1 and 3, a single snare drum beat on 2 and 4 and quarter notes on the hi-hat is overplaying. Anything more is just showing off. You should really feel the groove. [/sarcasm]

PS - Stewart Copeland is my hero!
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  #50  
Old 04-22-2009, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

[quote= An outstanding drummer can make a good band turn into an amazing band.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree, my favourite bands all have amazing drummers. Plus I also play guitar and playing in front of a good drummer gives you a lot more confidence and helps you relax.

Summary:- A great drummer will help the other musicians in a band play better.
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  #51  
Old 04-23-2009, 12:11 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by techristian View Post
Less is more.

I learned that many years ago.

Dan
Nah.

Less is ALWAYS less.

Doesn't mean it's better or worse. But it IS always less than more.

It is what it is. ;-)
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  #52  
Old 04-23-2009, 12:40 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by LinearDrummer View Post
This has the makings of groove vs chops saga part 929693220....

Isn't overplaying subjective...I've heard people say Vinnie overplayed with Herbie and this was on a "Vinnie is God" forum....Herbi looked like he was having the time of his life hearing the chopfest on drums....

Same thing said of Weckl but thats what I want pay to see, someone push the envelope in a musical situation....If I want pocket then I'll check out Jordan of Ferrone but thats not what I want to see.....

Now overplaying and just bad playing are two different things...If the fills were rushed and the timing was all over the place then thats just a bad drummer thinking hes all that trying to show off...
Yet we keep taking part on these things...we're all gluttons...miserable gluttons. :)

I think whether or not "chops" are called for...or a simple back-beat is appropriate, is entirely subjective to the time, place, and people involved in the music. I believe it's important for us to instinctively interpret what the music needs...sometimes it's one or the other...both...or somewhere in-between.

DMC has it right...sometimes you bring the fire or sometimes you just keep a little flame goin'. Either way - it's all relative to the band, the music, and the mojo that's going on while the music is being played.

I think it's silly to paint oneself into a corner and say, "I just play a backbeat because ALL music only requires timekeeping and the GROOVE, man." Likewise...someone who wanks their way through every song, paying no mind to the energy in the room and the other musicians taking part is equally as asinine.

Instinct and creative choices.
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  #53  
Old 04-23-2009, 01:00 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

Hi everyone - this is my first post after months of just reading and taking in all the great input - I only hope I can offer something useful.
Drummers who 'overplay' really get me. I just wonder if they're listening.
I've been playing over 20 years now.

I know some younger players may not get what I'm about to try to say here, but here it is. I did a gig with a blues band - no rehearsal, never played with the bass player before. This could have been a disaster, however it worked (and people were dancing all night) due to me and the bassist keeping it simple. I see it as a challange to play simply and effectively. We were playing shuffles and swing grooves - these are feels I really saw as a challenge years ago. However, after listening to lots of early rock and roll and Frank Sinatra, I've begun to really accept that it is a true test of your musicianship to be true to those rhythms and say to yourself 'I'm going to make people dance just by playing the ride cymbal' . I also sing along to the songs or hum the basslines as I go (i'm a bassist too). Because the blues is honest and simpler music, you play that way - you want it to CONNECT with people.
I feel you will not work with a good band for long or will work with bands that aren't as good (that is, they will accept less) if you don't care about what you play. A lot of this is unspoken among musicans - you may never hear that people aren't happy - you will wonder why the phone doesn't ring for work though.
I have some limited chops, but I know when they're not required !
I hope I added something here.
Keep playing , keep listening , keep working..........
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  #54  
Old 04-23-2009, 01:01 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

There is no square rule or standard to play, more or average or less. It is up to you, at the right time, right place to fit in with what is required...Time-keeping, lightning fast triplets, fills, four-way coordination, grooves, and so on.
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  #55  
Old 04-23-2009, 03:32 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by michael drums View Post
Nah.

Less is ALWAYS less.

Doesn't mean it's better or worse. But it IS always less than more.

It is what it is. ;-)
Thank You!!!

The "Less Is More" statement has always bothered me. It's such a all inclusive statement that it feels like someone is choking the life outta me. If a songwriter says, "use the less is more approach on this song" then that would be good communication, but when its used as a blanket statement it really gets under my skin.
Play for the MUSIC. Find a cool groove or start a fire, just make it work.

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  #56  
Old 04-23-2009, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aussieplayer View Post
Hi everyone - this is my first post after months of just reading and taking in all the great input - I only hope I can offer something useful.
Drummers who 'overplay' really get me. I just wonder if they're listening.
I've been playing over 20 years now.

I know some younger players may not get what I'm about to try to say here, but here it is. I did a gig with a blues band - no rehearsal, never played with the bass player before. This could have been a disaster, however it worked (and people were dancing all night) due to me and the bassist keeping it simple. I see it as a challange to play simply and effectively. We were playing shuffles and swing grooves - these are feels I really saw as a challenge years ago. However, after listening to lots of early rock and roll and Frank Sinatra, I've begun to really accept that it is a true test of your musicianship to be true to those rhythms and say to yourself 'I'm going to make people dance just by playing the ride cymbal' . I also sing along to the songs or hum the basslines as I go (i'm a bassist too). Because the blues is honest and simpler music, you play that way - you want it to CONNECT with people.
I feel you will not work with a good band for long or will work with bands that aren't as good (that is, they will accept less) if you don't care about what you play. A lot of this is unspoken among musicans - you may never hear that people aren't happy - you will wonder why the phone doesn't ring for work though.
I have some limited chops, but I know when they're not required !
I hope I added something here.
Keep playing , keep listening , keep working..........
Very, very well said!
This is true if you are playing covers in the main and its what many of us do mostly- have to listen to a lot of songs and learn them--when I say learn I mean- have a feel for the natural breaks in the music, watch for example a build up in chord progression that leads to a break...its very important to take note of these to the point where it comes without thought..after I have that done- its the dynamics I look at next--I listen for the times I should play not as loud to aid expression.
With all these things in mind its often not the done thing to play more than whats required- but you can always make your mark with the accents, ghost notes etc. In the main I believe a drummer gets more work if he serves the song and has an understanding at some level of instruments in general that may be at the gig.
I play the guitar and most likely thats not unique here- I am no way good enough to play out, but am aware when for example a series of chords is a build up to the end of the song, a break, a verse, a chorus or a lead into another song as sometimes happens.

I hope this gives some help to some drummers out there wondering how to make it work better for them.

Good luck guys and gals!
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  #57  
Old 04-23-2009, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

There is this story about a semi pro saxophonist who used to come up to Michael Brecker with numerous critiques of his playing, with the sum of it usually being that Michael needed to play less, and not be so musically aggressive. Somehow this guy got on a student jam session at some college where Brecker was the guest act. Apparently Brecker took in the critic saxophonist's playing with a dead pan expression, then commenced to playing one of the wildest solos anyone had ever heard him play.

Still after all that, this guy still comes to Brecker and asks him with a cocky tone:

Hey Michael, why do you want to play so many notes?

Brecker responds: Because I can.
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  #58  
Old 04-23-2009, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by mattsmith View Post
There is this story about a semi pro saxophonist who used to come up to Michael Brecker with numerous critiques of his playing, with the sum of it usually being that Michael needed to play less, and not be so musically aggressive. Somehow this guy got on a student jam session at some college where Brecker was the guest act. Apparently Brecker took in the critic saxophonist's playing with a dead pan expression, then commenced to playing one of the wildest solos anyone had ever heard him play.

Still after all that, this guy still comes to Brecker and asks him with a cocky tone:

Hey Michael, why do you want to play so many notes?

Brecker responds: Because I can.
Ha! Awesome. I wonder if that ever happened to Elvin Jones or Tony Williams.
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  #59  
Old 04-24-2009, 10:56 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by michael drums View Post
Nah.

Less is ALWAYS less.

Doesn't mean it's better or worse. But it IS always less than more.

It is what it is. ;-)
same opinion here. Less is always less, folks who see the less drumming think, he or she doesnt know anything other than playing simple beats, even though the drummer keeps on thinking "Less is more!".

What would have happened if Neal Peart thinks "Less is more??

again, time keeping, playing steady grooves is good but.. to me it is boring after sometime. The drummer should find some chops that blends with the music every now and then. Thats what creativity is, to me.
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  #60  
Old 04-24-2009, 11:37 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

I think it is a huge misconception that when a drummer feels he/she is playing a "boring" beat, that it sounds boring. I've felt that very thing, "Oh this beat is so simple, it's boring" On playback though, I was so surprised to enjoy how much "in the groove" it sounded. From now on if I think I'm being "boring" I know better not to change it up, because the groove falters. Sometimes keeping time just feels soooo good (out front in the audience, where it matters)
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  #61  
Old 04-24-2009, 11:39 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

For me - it's whatever the music dictates. I think The Colonel said it right with the whole Elvin thing - I wouldn't call it overplaying, it's all just integral to the music. Hell, it IS the music. Elvin himself said to 'only play things that fit the music' and I certainly wouldn't change anything that he played.
Trane was an intense monster himself, but with Elvin that intensity became a manifestation of the Holy Spirit through a horn, especially toward to the end - I challenge anyone to listen to Sun Ship and NOT be overwhelmed. Miles said best in his autobiography with 'Now Elvin Jones could light a fire beneath the soloist like no other mother******!'
At the same time an album such as Kind of Blue which came out to be such a mellow, beautiful, soulful masterpiece was again partly due to the more restrained approach of Jimmy Cobb. I think with another drummer a whole different story would have been the case.
I also think that many drummers underestimate dynamics and make a mistake of playing less notes when it's more of a case of playing quieter.
At the end of the day, I believe one can only submit to the music and the truly great drummers are those that understand the situation, the soloist's direction, the dynamics and have such a deep connection with the music that their response can only be perfect.
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  #62  
Old 04-24-2009, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
...but failure to take control and show off when called for is a sign of mediocrity.
Thanks for that DMC, I really needed to read that. I've been guilty of that from time to time and you really crystallized it for me. Another pearl of wisdom gleaned from the pool of shared knowledge that is Drummerworld.
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  #63  
Old 06-17-2009, 02:39 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

I just find it hard not making drumming into a competition sometimes. I wanna be a better drummer than everyone else i know, but that completely takes musicianship out of drumming if you act like that. I just want to be able to play whats right for the song and almost nothing else. Like Phil Rudd.
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  #64  
Old 06-17-2009, 05:28 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

Add me to the voices who say "it depends on the genre".

I think of Rick Marotta in Steely Dan's "Hey Nineteen". Simple, but a tasty take ... good sound, appropriate beat played cleanly, subtle nuances to keep things moving, a little signature fill leading into the changes. Far from mediocre IMO, although some may prefer more action.

Then there's Billy Cobham pushing the envelope with Mahavishnu - ideal for music that was about transcendence. Neither he nor RM overplayed or underplayed, they did what worked for the style.

One challenge I find is to have "big ears" the whole time without ever zoning out and disappearing up my own bum. The other challenge is to play simply but with variety.

Larry, I liked your comment about "boring beats". These days I don't believe in boring beats, just bored execution of them.

Last edited by Pollyanna; 06-17-2009 at 09:39 AM.
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  #65  
Old 07-02-2009, 02:44 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

Playing too much...impossible...impossible
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  #66  
Old 07-02-2009, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

"Kind of Blue which came out to be such a mellow, beautiful, soulful masterpiece was again partly due to the more restrained approach of Jimmy Cobb. I think with another drummer a whole different story would have been the case."


(Hey foursticks - what up?)

I disagree with this. I feel like you could put other drummers from that time period into the setting and the album would still be a "mellow, beautiful, soulful masterpiece". I think what you said is part of one of the worst things that can happen to jazz: The Romanticizing of Jazz.

People will talk about a "golden age" of jazz (or baseball or anything - "back in my day, when the real such and such was happening"). I think the Golden Age of jazz is always the present. Always. At this point in time, I can listen to Kind of Blue, and then check out the latest Avishai Cohen album (man, his first album was soooo amazing - that was his best band lineup) - or whomever - because now in the present, I have both those options. I'm not sitting around in 1959 waiting for Miles to record his next opus, or for the Coltrane Quartet to show up. I have that stuff at my disposal. And everything else under the sun - so isn't now the golden age?

About 50 years have passed since Kind of Blue was pressed. There have been essays, and books, and discussions, and arguments, and on and on about this album. (Me, personally - this album doesn't make my top 100 - I'm not a historian, so that part of its merits don't hold up for me). Jimmy Cobb played a great session - very tasteful, almost understated throughout, but with such elegance and musicianship - fantastic.

But I could see [a younger] Elvin doing wonders with the album. Great mid-tempo player - fantastic with brushes. Heck, I wonder what a 15 year old Tony woulda done - everything that guy did was musical (and he could *play* at that age too!) What would Roy Haynes have sounded like in that studio? Max? etc...I think the album would've obviously come out different - but I don't think it would've necessarilly been a detraction... I think Roy woulda sounded great on Kind of Blue - those songs - those musicians, etc. And then we'd have 50 years of "Oh man Roy was *perfect* for that album.

Roy sounded great with Trane on the Newport '63 disc (and at the time, live festival performance). Elvin was in jail because of his drug problems (don't do drugs, kiddos!) - It was like the new Star Trek movie: Someone warped into another time, and it made everything different while still being familiar - and Winona Ryder is your mother. Okay - one of those doesn't make sense, but the other stuff...! If Elvin doesn't go to the slammer, we're here now going "Aw man, Elvin was droppin' bombs that night!" but instead we have an essay in the liner notes about how Roy made Trane play differently, and it was an instant classic, etc etc.

Change is refreshing, no? People start hearing a new drummer - a new way of playing - with Miles and everyone goes "it's perfect!" (did the same when Tony came in: "it's perfect!") and it was...It is. But I think other drummers with great musicianship coulda come in and done it just as well - and who knows, maybe better!


This all, of course, is under the predication that your statement above means the change would be a bad thing...

I mean, if I had a time machine - Right after killing baby Hitler I would totally have fun trying to get other musicians to show up for gigs/sessions:

"Hey 1999 Peter Brotzmann, come with me to 1964 New York. Ayler's throwin' down some ESP tracks!"

"Hey present-day Hamid Drake - let's go to 1961 and get you onto Ornette's Free Jazz Double Quartet session"

"Eric Harland, let's get you to fill in for Tony at the Plugged Nickel shows" etc etc



Of course, everyone says "if there's time travel, why haven't we seen people from the future here?" to which say that I think the first attempt must've opened up a dimensional hell-gate destroying all civilization - so when we get to that point, let's *not* do it, huh?

I could go on about that stuff forever...Best to shut up now! Geez that post was all over the friggin place...
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  #67  
Old 07-02-2009, 04:20 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

Oh - I meant to mention that we're all guilty of the romanticizing of jazz - that rash pops up on me too. Or it used to. Now it's more "I want to listen to some great music" and I could pull from any era. One of my top albums (top 5) is from 2000 - ONJQ LIVE - easily easily in my top 5 (Britt, you'd love it!) - just completely destroys so many once-great-in-my-mind albums-that-were-in-a-similar-vein - just fantastic - and makes going back and hearing some of Ayler's stuff a little rough (some - not all - relax, you Ayler lovers! I'm still on board!)

Now, it's more "what will make the people in the room respond well to it?" - which would be '57-'65 Blue Note albums - with a few exceptions. So people who are lazy and stick with what they know go "Ah - this was the golden age!"

Bill Simmons wrote a great baseball-related article on this subject, and while reading it, I thought about the parallels to jazz. Enjoy!

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=4268999
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  #68  
Old 07-03-2009, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by metal overlord View Post
I can admit I play to much. I hate playing simple beats, and I don't like to be the "boring" one on stage. I play fast and I play loud, I twirl and juggle my sticks, but it makes me happy. I find enjoyment in it.

But I also have been taking drum lessons for 14 years (I was 5), so I at least know how to do everything else correctly.
I really believe there is 2 sides to the argument here. Those who want to make it pro in a band and those who do it now and then for a hobby, i am the latter i write music and play t to have a good time and i really do, i have toned down my overplaying now as i used to admittedly but i agree with this in sight. I have seen some pro drummers who i think overplay and yet people love them for it, Joey Jordison, John Boecklin, Tim Yeung and most death metal drummers overplay. But hey if they're having a good time i don't think there's a problem trying to stand out, you never know when there could be a talent scout in the audience or a good band looking for a drummer. If you wanna go pro obviously you should restrict yourself only to what the music requires even if the fun does suffer.
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  #69  
Old 07-03-2009, 02:46 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

If the guitarist and the Bassist support, yes, overplaying makes sense and the drummer can still keep the job.

perfect example- The Who.

I think every rock song has a "The Who" side to it, if the guitarist and the bassist decide to change what they play.... after all cohesiveness is the key.
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  #70  
Old 07-03-2009, 11:00 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by JT1 View Post
I really believe there is 2 sides to the argument here. Those who want to make it pro in a band and those who do it now and then for a hobby, i am the latter i write music and play t to have a good time and i really do, i have toned down my overplaying now as i used to admittedly but i agree with this in sight. I have seen some pro drummers who i think overplay and yet people love them for it, Joey Jordison, John Boecklin, Tim Yeung and most death metal drummers overplay. But hey if they're having a good time i don't think there's a problem trying to stand out, you never know when there could be a talent scout in the audience or a good band looking for a drummer. If you wanna go pro obviously you should restrict yourself only to what the music requires even if the fun does suffer.

John overplays? I always thought he did fine. He adds that extra push to DD's music.
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  #71  
Old 07-05-2009, 01:40 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
"Kind of Blue which came out to be such a mellow, beautiful, soulful masterpiece was again partly due to the more restrained approach of Jimmy Cobb. I think with another drummer a whole different story would have been the case."


(Hey foursticks - what up?)

I disagree with this. I feel like you could put other drummers from that time period into the setting and the album would still be a "mellow, beautiful, soulful masterpiece". I think what you said is part of one of the worst things that can happen to jazz: The Romanticizing of Jazz.

People will talk about a "golden age" of jazz (or baseball or anything - "back in my day, when the real such and such was happening"). I think the Golden Age of jazz is always the present. Always. At this point in time, I can listen to Kind of Blue, and then check out the latest Avishai Cohen album (man, his first album was soooo amazing - that was his best band lineup) - or whomever - because now in the present, I have both those options. I'm not sitting around in 1959 waiting for Miles to record his next opus, or for the Coltrane Quartet to show up. I have that stuff at my disposal. And everything else under the sun - so isn't now the golden age?

About 50 years have passed since Kind of Blue was pressed. There have been essays, and books, and discussions, and arguments, and on and on about this album. (Me, personally - this album doesn't make my top 100 - I'm not a historian, so that part of its merits don't hold up for me). Jimmy Cobb played a great session - very tasteful, almost understated throughout, but with such elegance and musicianship - fantastic.

But I could see [a younger] Elvin doing wonders with the album. Great mid-tempo player - fantastic with brushes. Heck, I wonder what a 15 year old Tony woulda done - everything that guy did was musical (and he could *play* at that age too!) What would Roy Haynes have sounded like in that studio? Max? etc...I think the album would've obviously come out different - but I don't think it would've necessarilly been a detraction... I think Roy woulda sounded great on Kind of Blue - those songs - those musicians, etc. And then we'd have 50 years of "Oh man Roy was *perfect* for that album.

Roy sounded great with Trane on the Newport '63 disc (and at the time, live festival performance). Elvin was in jail because of his drug problems (don't do drugs, kiddos!) - It was like the new Star Trek movie: Someone warped into another time, and it made everything different while still being familiar - and Winona Ryder is your mother. Okay - one of those doesn't make sense, but the other stuff...! If Elvin doesn't go to the slammer, we're here now going "Aw man, Elvin was droppin' bombs that night!" but instead we have an essay in the liner notes about how Roy made Trane play differently, and it was an instant classic, etc etc.

Change is refreshing, no? People start hearing a new drummer - a new way of playing - with Miles and everyone goes "it's perfect!" (did the same when Tony came in: "it's perfect!") and it was...It is. But I think other drummers with great musicianship coulda come in and done it just as well - and who knows, maybe better!


This all, of course, is under the predication that your statement above means the change would be a bad thing...

I mean, if I had a time machine - Right after killing baby Hitler I would totally have fun trying to get other musicians to show up for gigs/sessions:

"Hey 1999 Peter Brotzmann, come with me to 1964 New York. Ayler's throwin' down some ESP tracks!"

"Hey present-day Hamid Drake - let's go to 1961 and get you onto Ornette's Free Jazz Double Quartet session"

"Eric Harland, let's get you to fill in for Tony at the Plugged Nickel shows" etc etc



Of course, everyone says "if there's time travel, why haven't we seen people from the future here?" to which say that I think the first attempt must've opened up a dimensional hell-gate destroying all civilization - so when we get to that point, let's *not* do it, huh?

I could go on about that stuff forever...Best to shut up now! Geez that post was all over the friggin place...
Yo man - things are cool, yourself?

I think you've got the wrong end of my stick (woah, now THAT sounds wrong!).
I never said that a whole different story was necessarily BAD thing and if I implied it - that's not what I meant. What I meant was that different drummers bring different colours to the music and it can go either way - amazingly or just not working out. In fact speaking of Elvin and Miles, Miles did one record (think it was called 'Blue Moods' or something?) with Elvin and Mingus on rhythm and even said himself that it just wasn't happening, even though he loved playing with the two - the spark wasn't there.
At the end of the day - I think it's all about experimenting and playing with different and new musicians, experimenting with new colours and sounds and textures and trying to make something special and original from that.
As for Elvin on Kind of Blue - fair enough, why the hell not??? (By the way - I hadn't heard John Coltrane's & Johnny Hartman's record before I made that comment - so I hadn't Elvin play massively restrained. Damn my naivety!!)

You have to admit tho - if another drummer were to play on that, it WOULD sound different. Maybe still beautiful, mellow and soulful - but different nonetheless. Certainly NOT a bad thing - just stating fact (I hope).

I certainly don't want to give the impression of romantising jazz. Well... Not all the time anyway ;-)
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  #72  
Old 07-06-2009, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by techristian View Post
Less is more.

I learned that many years ago.

Dan
I'm really curious why someone would think this.
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  #73  
Old 07-06-2009, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by zambizzi View Post
I think whether or not "chops" are called for...or a simple back-beat is appropriate, is entirely subjective to the time, place, and people involved in the music. I believe it's important for us to instinctively interpret what the music needs...sometimes it's one or the other...both...or somewhere in-between.
Exactly!
I don't think Gavin or Vinnie get calls for gigs to play simple 2 & 4 backbeats...and likewise Steve Jordan isn't getting calls for a bunch of 32nd note fills.

Its all about whats the intent of the music and what does the project call for.
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  #74  
Old 07-06-2009, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by LinearDrummer View Post
I'm really curious why someone would think this.
me as well.
In my opinion, less is less.
There are ways to make the song still cohesive with creativity, other than just straight time keeping, of course with the support of the bassist and the guitarist. That is the challenge.
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  #75  
Old 07-07-2009, 04:22 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

within someones first 4 or 5 years of drumming, I think it comes natural to most students that playing loud and fast makes a better drummer. it takes a while before most people mature out of it and realize that it really isn't all about that. playing with dynamics and soft grooves can be alot of fun, you just have to make it.
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  #76  
Old 07-07-2009, 09:47 AM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

This whole thing could be renamed as "Drummers that don't play properly for the situation?" which includes *needing* to play more but don't.
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  #77  
Old 07-07-2009, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
This whole thing could be renamed as "Drummers that don't play properly for the situation?" which includes *needing* to play more but don't.
Never thought I'd ever see you use the word 'properly'.
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  #78  
Old 07-07-2009, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

yeah, you're right. screw that.
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  #79  
Old 07-07-2009, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: Drummers who play too much!

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Originally Posted by metal overlord View Post
John overplays? I always thought he did fine. He adds that extra push to DD's music.
Well you know i like him cause i started a thread on him lol. I just think with drummers like him you hardly have room to breath. I aint saying it's a bad thing but overplaying to me is when there is no breathing space. But i think he's awesome non-the-less.
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