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  #41  
Old 01-20-2009, 04:16 PM
jer jer is offline
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

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Originally Posted by gawain85 View Post
is the hate the passion of this lack of justice that make me crazy :P arharhahraagrrrrrr
\
To comment on your frustration for having to pay to play, and remain in the context of this thread, I quote Tim.

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Originally Posted by Tim Waterson View Post
GO home practice get good enough for the club to hire you before you hit the clubs
Yes, it's no fun to have to pay to play, but if you remove yourself from the passion of the art and look at it from a business standpoint, it's a very logical request from a club / venue to have you pay to book the room to throw your show. They want to make sure you are serious about putting on a good night and will do everything you can to bring people out. It weeds out the hack bands who haven't learned that gigging is more than just the music.

If you are worried that you won't be making your $150 back (assuming you run the door), then playing that gig is not for your band. Consider how much it costs promoters to book an arena for example, someone has to pay for it, and they hope they are booking a band(s) who will bring people out to make the event a financial success. Paying to play a club is the same idea as this, only on a much smaller basis.

I base this comment on not having to "pay to play" so to speak, I have agreed to a minimum bar sales and paying a fee if we don't meet the bars expectation, but this is all discussed before hand, and I wouldn't take the gig if I felt as though we could meet said expectations.

I hear stories about the scene in LA, and the demands that bar owners / bookers put on the acts they are booking - can anyone whose played the strip offer any input?
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  #42  
Old 01-20-2009, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

I don't know about LA; but where I am there are several clubs that require the band sell 500tickets before they will pay them. (It's a real b when you only sell 499.) The band really has to have a good following and network system to make that happen. If you odn't sell the tix, you are not going to be asked back. I think that is a big part of the success, how much promotion a band do can on its own. If you have a loyal following, you will always get paid well.
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  #43  
Old 01-20-2009, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

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Originally Posted by gawain85 View Post
Hey haha i never finish the word ,is the hate the passion of this lack of justice that make me crazy :P arharhahraagrrrrrr

where i can find info of phil? in what zone are playing etc
You did finish the "F" word, and the Forum Rules do clearly state even leaving out letters when people obviously know what word you meant is forbidden.

Be careful, because it's no fun to be banned. Trust me.
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  #44  
Old 01-20-2009, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

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Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I don't know about LA; but where I am there are several clubs that require the band sell 500tickets before they will pay them. (It's a real b when you only sell 499.) The band really has to have a good following and network system to make that happen. If you odn't sell the tix, you are not going to be asked back. I think that is a big part of the success, how much promotion a band do can on its own. If you have a loyal following, you will always get paid well.
Man, around here, more bars that do live music won't even HOLD 500 people. They're glad to have a band bring in 50 people!
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  #45  
Old 01-20-2009, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

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Originally Posted by diosdude View Post
Aw man, Tim i feel really badly for you, someone who has reached your level of notoriety in the drumming community should not have to sing or in this case, drum for his supper. Honestly, what thrash band on a major label wouldn't want the attention of having the wfd in his band? Maybe you should just move to Tinseltown or Nashville and just be a hired gun, i'll bet you would bank. My thing about what I do, i don't play drums to make money. I don't even do it for the dream of making money with it one day, i gave that up long ago. I play drums to express myself and create true artwork. I believe in the music that my band is making now and i believe that we are creating something possibly bigger than us that will outlive us. I think i'm probably part of the problem that you are talking about though, our first four gigs we have made a grand total of 3 dollars (which we stuck in a plaque as our first payday) and we have played in front of crowds of 80, 30, 15, and 40 people. But honestly, we're not ready to play. we're not tight enough. One day in the near future though, we will be tight enough to play arenas and now that's my dream, not so much the money, but the chance to be able to play in front of huge audiences. I think that's how the club owners in South Florida think, they think they are doing YOU a favor by letting you play your music at their place. What gets me though is our "share" of the door. I think it's unscrupulous for owners to charge cover if the bands don't make money. We especially hate it when we draw 20 or 30 people to the place, each paying 5 bucks to see US and then we see nothing. But hey if you can't beat 'em join 'em. To that end, i'm organizing my own underground shows, some all ages that i can get some high school bands to play at and some grown up full blown keg parties that i can get some local bands to showcase their good stuff at. I've got a decent PA, pushing 3000 watts front of house plus a monitor mix. I've got unlimited access to a 3000 sq ft warehouse where i can make it happen so i'm lucky that i don't have to play the club owners game any more. Carpe Diem, sieze the day. You are more in control of your situation than you think.

So if you guys are playing covers or standards, I'd say please just say no to shoddy paying gigs but if you're doing it for the music I'd say no to any crowd under 50 people.
WELL\\\ if you know of a thrash or speed band that can come up with living expenses let me know.
I have played underground gigs and di the tours with original bands and THAT is why iam out on the road playing Variety with Judea San Pedro
Derek Roddy Quit touring with a fairly Big band and part of it was money or lack of at the end of a tour...
If Derek was in Alberta he would be playing variety covers or he would starve like the others
Tim
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  #46  
Old 01-20-2009, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

A lot of the problem is bands are no longer in demand as they once were.

Blame Deejays for one.

I think many have lost the appreciation for live music. My wife would rather hear the record. I'd rather here it live. Much as I think she's 'out to lunch', there are probably a lot more like her than me.

As far as playing for free...I'll do it if I want. When I practice with my band I am playing for free...why not have people there watching and listening?

I do empathize with the OP though.
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  #47  
Old 01-21-2009, 02:05 AM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

I'd love to say I agree, musicians should be paid more.

But supply and demand make it tough. In Los Angeles, there are more musicians and bands than anything. So many clubs book 5 bands a night, 7 nights a week, they don't have to pay anything, and the list of bands willing to play still far outweighs the number of available gigs.

And as the last poster said, many people now prefer DJs. I know many people who would much rather go to a club to hear their favorite tunes spun by a DJ than a live band.

And with technology, we're all replaceable. Not just drum machines, but software and sequencers can replace keyboardists, bassists, guitarists, and heck, I just saw a program that can replace the vocalist (with in certain limits). A large percentage of pop music these days has very few to no real musicians even playing on it; everything is programmed except for the vocal part.

It's sad. If you read Mick Fleetwood autbiography, he sid he moved to London and immediatly got paying gigs simply because he owned his own drum set. In Hal Blaine's autobiography, he discuss getting paid in small clubs for years before he broke into the studio scene. Those opportunities just do NOT exist anymore.
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  #48  
Old 01-21-2009, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

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Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I think that is a big part of the success, how much promotion a band do can on its own. If you have a loyal following, you will always get paid well.
That's kind of the problem with most original bands starting out...You can't play unless you draw a crowd, but you can't draw a crowd until you have name notoriety, and you can't get that unless you play and gain a following. So, where is a band to start? Often times, they can double-bill with a friend's band who already has a draw in order to get some cross-over fans, or they have to play for free/close to nothing in order to get their name out there.

Networking, networking, networking...it separates the musicians that get paid from those that don't...
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  #49  
Old 01-21-2009, 04:30 AM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

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Originally Posted by caddywumpus View Post
That's kind of the problem with most original bands starting out...You can't play unless you draw a crowd, but you can't draw a crowd until you have name notoriety, and you can't get that unless you play and gain a following. So, where is a band to start? networking .

This is where networking with other musicians comes in. If you have three bands that do an original country rock thing, and they each can bring in 50 people, you can have a night where you can have a 150+ crowd. It's the same thing with songwriters. If you have three songwriter/musicians in a band, then each has the incentive to be in the band to hear his songs done with a trio. If you're a songwriting/drummer, that's a win-win situation, since most songwriters are guitarist or keyboard players. You can be the next Doors. If you're doing the circuit of cafe and open mics, and the other two are doing the same, you can get quite a following going that way. Then there's myspace, facebook, and that telephone post out in from of the mid-town deli. When you're a musician, you should expect to spend a lot of your time on promotion.
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  #50  
Old 01-21-2009, 02:19 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

Quote:
That's kind of the problem with most original bands starting out...You can't play unless you draw a crowd, but you can't draw a crowd until you have name notoriety, and you can't get that unless you play and gain a following. So, where is a band to start?
Myspace :)

I know of a band that got plenty of airplay from their myspace hits yet never actually did a single live show.
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  #51  
Old 01-25-2009, 04:39 AM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

More musicians NEED to lear about the buisiness aspect as opposed to just playing.
Tommy Aldrige talks about this at his clinics.
I was almost threatened to try and get me to SIGN a contract of course I said NO.......
IE.. A friend of mine went and toured the world with a FAMOUS Metal band.
when I saw him I asked how the tour was going?
He was getting insult PAY but playing HUGE festivals?
Another friend had to THREATEN to quit before he could get a PER DIUM to survive.

Tim
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  #52  
Old 01-25-2009, 04:53 AM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

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A friend of mine went and toured the world with a FAMOUS Metal band.
when I saw him I asked how the tour was going?
He was getting insult PAY but playing HUGE festivals?
Aww cmon Tim, that doesnt really narrow it down!!! :)

Most metal bands are doing it fairly tough out there - especially the more extreme styles.

I think it was Derek Roddy who said in an interview that part of his reason for quitting Hate Eternal was because of his time away from home touring, yet barely covering the cost.

Derek Roddy is a champ. I hope to meet him someday. Reading his comments about metal bands (in particular) who dont take the time to learn how to communicate and know the industry was a great wake-up call to many.
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  #53  
Old 01-25-2009, 05:37 AM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

Economy update: Can musicians afford to say NO thesedays?
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  #54  
Old 01-25-2009, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

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Originally Posted by aydee View Post
Economy update: Can musicians afford to say NO thesedays?
I should have said musiciand NEED to know when to say no.
Not just about gigs.
Tim
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  #55  
Old 02-04-2009, 11:49 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

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Originally Posted by jer View Post
Tim,

Keep spreading this message to students and friends!

There are enough people out there who will teach you how to play your instrument, but not enough who will teach you how to be a working musician. Like other's have stated, we spend so much time learning our instrument thinking that musical ability will lead our way, when in reality we need to put on our business hats and make smart, informed business decisions when dealing with not just booking gigs, but with every aspect of the band if you want to keep the boat financially afloat.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be playing until the day I die, regardless if I'm getting a paycheck or not. I love expressing myself through my chosen art form, and money (or lack of) will never change this.

Whenever a band plays live, someone has the opportunity to make money. Be sure you are getting your fair share. There are enough promoters and venue owners out there who'll take advantage of ignorant bands, which will simply feed the machine Tim is ranting about.

Just say "know".
Exactly this post was more from a buisiness aspect.
JUST SAY KNOW is what I should have posted thanks..............
Too many musicians just jump at the opportunity to play.
This is good when you are young and have no resposibilities so do it then.
If you are playing a festival and can promote yourself and sell your product its better to play for less.
BUT.....
when you need to make a living you have to make sacrifices.
Why else would I be on the road constantly playing 6 nights a week playing music that is NOT my choice.We are promoting JUDEAS CD and we sell cds everywhere we play.
Of course I can promote my dvd and do clincs at the local stores if time allows for it.
I just posted this to get people to think before they say yes to a gig or an agent or a manager etc.
Tim
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  #56  
Old 02-05-2009, 01:32 AM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

Lower wages are part of a bloated supply of bands. It sucks, but that's why you learn an actual paying trade if you want to feed your family. Everything is tradeoffs.

My problem with the bloated supply of band is that so many just flat out SUCK. As in, they have zero business annoying their friends and family with that noise, let alone paying customers in a bar.

I swear, bar owners cannot possibly be auditioning these losers...
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  #57  
Old 02-05-2009, 12:12 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

No need to be so harsh, Ekim..

...we weren't that bad..
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  #58  
Old 02-05-2009, 03:09 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

Now getting to see it from both sides, I gotta say - I side with the venues to a degree. I can think a band I booked is great and maybe they are, but if the majority of people there don't think so, then they leave and there goes $1000... Had a good sized crowd a few weeks back and had a solid band lined up. They had a technical issue and started about 80 minutes late. I was fine with that - everyone was dancing cuz the DJ was killin it (and he's in a really good band). As soon as the band finally started - tiwards the end of the night - at least 100 people left within 10 minutes. That's a bunch of $ out the door. And on top of that - I pay bands better than most venues out here (Los Angeles) and I know that because I've played almost every venue out here.

Never had to pay to play - we worked through a friend of a friend who was getting started in the promotion/managing biz and we always brought way more than the other bands and she'd show/tell this to the venues. Some bands would bring 8 people and we'd bring 60-70 on a Monday. And that's something else: you could do a residency at a place on a night they are slow. I used to do a jazz trio (along the lines of Mingus/Ornette - not too out bit definitely not "safe") at a local dive bar every Monday. I told the owners we'd do it for free for a bit and when the people started coming we would expect to be paid. After two weeks word in the area spread and they went from 6 people to 80-100 people all having a good time and most important: buying drinks. You have people getting 3-4 rounds and you do the math. We would like our cut now thank you (we never rehearsed so we treated the first free times as our rehearsal - figure out what the group's sound would be there. We all seemed to be thinking the same thing so the Mingus/Ornette thing just happened...)

So I did the same with my rock band: give us Sunday and if people come pay us. Worked out AND the place was a 10 second walk from my building so it was perfect.

It's definitely not about chop levels on the instrument. It's about the song or if it is the chops you better have some way of conveying that it's more than just wanking. Doesn't matter what kind of music. I used to do my avant garde stuff at a hip restaurant/bar in Portland, ME where they normally did post-bop or Mark Turner type straight ahead and we brought and kept bigger crowds. People would come up and say "we've never seen anything like that" and we'd say "thanks for not throwing stuff at us!"

At my venue here, I stopped going for all these loud rock bands because the majority doesn't want that. I booked an awesome (awesome!) Japanese blues band that can stomp most blues bands into the mud - every other week because people see them and say "holy crap these guys are awesome". I pay those guys well cuz they bring people back. The guy who scared 100 people away? We paid well but I won't have them back - nor am I gonna book all their friends' bands that they told about us.

If it's a one-time gig - bring a merch table. If you're good and people liked you then you can sell some CDs/shirts/stickers for a larger profit. I had a friend's band that used to open for Tool play one night with this other band that sound like a young G&R sorta. Wanted my friend's band 2nd because that's when the most people would be there and they are awesome. The bands switched times because a bassist needed to work early so my friends - who offered to play for free because it was our 2nd night open went first with mo people (we felt bad but they used the gig as a tune-up for a benefit show they were doing the next day so they were cool). The next band which demanded a large fee upfront before playing (which no other band had yet to do as well) played so loudly and much worse than what I'd heard on their myspace and abused the free-drinks for bands policy that we had to change that policy afterwards - they pushed everyone right out the door - and of course sent a message the next day that they had a GREAT time and couldn't wait to play again. Yeah, ok... = /

Oh but yeah! So the friend's band brought a bunch of merch and since they killed it - the people that WERE there for them totally picked up a disc and they did ok.

We are different in that we really want the bands to be happy. We pay well but sometimes you'll get someone strong arming for some fee that's ridiculous and I know the places they are playing and what if anything they're making at those places and then get all aggro with me and try getting triple... Those bands can go stick it.

The last instance I dealt with that pissed me off a little was a friend/acquaintance bandleader wanted to play our spot and I told him I couldn't afford him - we'd just gotten off the ground and had little to no money. He said he'd do it for free but could we throw the drummer $75 because he was a sub that might and that's what he paid his subs. Sure no prob, I said. After the gig - and people really really liked them (they're really great and that's one reason they are expensive) I paid the band leader for the drummer and he asked if we could throw a bonus to each guy (6 of them) a certain $. Well that along with the $75 for the drummer was more than their original price! I explained this to him and he got defensive and we didn't talk for a while. But I didn't think it personal so I offered the new year gig - as we were now able to afford them. Everyone was more than happy - we threw them a bonus - and they're back for valentine's day.

I ramble...
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  #59  
Old 02-05-2009, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

Wow! This is scary, but seems realistic and very true, based on my own experiences of clubbing in my younger days.

In a nutshell, it seems like the musician’s view of the music business is like anything else – you have to be marketable.

Relate it to any other job or profession. You need to first learn to play your particular instrument well, playing and learning all facets and all genres, to an extent. Next you need to get your name out there through marketing and advertising: people need to know who you are and what you do and what type of music you play.

Boiling it down: It’s the same as any small business – which in fact is what a band is – a small business. And any business will fail and fold unless customers buy their product or service. To be successful a business needs to make a better product or offer a better service, or offer something unique that the other businesses don’t.

If you need a plumber, you call the guy who gets there on time, does quality work, and charges a fair price, and you genuinely like him and trust him. You don’t call a plumber who sort of knows what to do, gets there late, does shoddy work, charges a fortune, and comes off as a jerk.

People do business with people they know, like, and trust. It’s the same with bands; if you play what people like to hear, they will come listen and have a good time.

Don't mean to preach, but just my $.02 as a former small business owner.
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  #60  
Old 02-05-2009, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

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Originally Posted by Tim Waterson View Post
WELL\\\ if you know of a thrash or speed band that can come up with living expenses let me know.
I have played underground gigs and di the tours with original bands and THAT is why iam out on the road playing Variety with Judea San Pedro
Derek Roddy Quit touring with a fairly Big band and part of it was money or lack of at the end of a tour...
If Derek was in Alberta he would be playing variety covers or he would starve like the others
Tim
Why are people bashing Tim, he has an excellent point. If you are a working drummer and thats how you make your money than why shouldn't he be looking to be paid a reasonable amount to support himself with. Thats like saying doctors should be doing free surgery and dentist should be pulling teeth for free. Now would you trust someone to do a quality job when they are doing it for free? And is it fair that they should give away their hard earned talent that they have been suffering to achieve and plan on using it to make a living for free? I think not, if you are in a great band, you bring in a lot of people, and that is your source of income, don't settle for less. On the other hand if your band is just starting out and you don't plan on making it a career that would be when you take a chance of trying to go big and play cheap or free gigs or just do it for the love of the art. Now give Tim a break and don't flame him when we all have the WFD at our disposal to learn his techniques through his eyes and learn how he got to where he is.
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  #61  
Old 02-05-2009, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

I sell by day, and I am 100% confident that the worse way to sell is the "first one's free" concept. All you'll find are club owners that are wiling to pay nothing, and who needs them? Go to established clubs that pay bands all the time, and try to get a date, with the understanding that if you do well you can get a regular night there. Don't waste your time turning no-band clubs or no-pay clubs into payers.

One of the biggest band clubs in town pays peanuts to their bands, and they get teeny-bopper shoe gazers lining up to play for free or close. If the club's audience is just-legals, then expect this. Another one in town pulls in acts from all over, and they pay well enough to continue to draw good acts.
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  #62  
Old 02-06-2009, 12:53 AM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

Established clubs that pay well? Hahahahahahahaha you are adorable.
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  #63  
Old 02-06-2009, 01:10 AM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

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Originally Posted by Spreggy View Post
I sell by day, and I am 100% confident that the worse way to sell is the "first one's free" concept. All you'll find are club owners that are wiling to pay nothing, and who needs them? Go to established clubs that pay bands all the time, and try to get a date, with the understanding that if you do well you can get a regular night there. Don't waste your time turning no-band clubs or no-pay clubs into payers.

One of the biggest band clubs in town pays peanuts to their bands, and they get teeny-bopper shoe gazers lining up to play for free or close. If the club's audience is just-legals, then expect this. Another one in town pulls in acts from all over, and they pay well enough to continue to draw good acts.
That is sort of the chicken and egg theory.

Does the club get the good bands because they pay well, or do the good bands get paid well because they can draw a crowd?

You have to start somewhere. And there aren't many places that are going to pay for a band that doesn't have an established following.
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  #64  
Old 02-06-2009, 02:58 AM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

What I have seen is that there are bars that have geared themselves toward the performance, and they pay alright. For example, one of my faves to visit when I exhibit at the Summer NAMM show in Nashville is Bourbon Street's. The venue is set up around the stage, they do a killer business (at least during NAMM week), and the bands are kick-butt blues bands. There's a good chance that if you go there during NAMM week, even though it's NAMM week with bands everywhere, the best thing you see all week will be there. They've gotta be paying those guys decent dough.

Some medium scale/upscale restaurants will pay Jazz combos alright also. I think if your goal is to play music for young people, you're out of luck in the money dept.
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  #65  
Old 02-06-2009, 03:16 AM
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mattsmith mattsmith is offline
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

Here's the way it was taught to me, and it seems to be this way.

1. Most club owners want something for nothing, because they think the world doesn't understand how hard they have it with all their hidden expenses. So after they pay off their sound system and make some rennovations to bring the place up to code, they want everybody to pitch in like we're all this big team. So the first thing they want is a free band, and there's always someone desperate enough to oblige, who has illusions of being paid something when the club starts doing better.

2. When the club starts thriving, there's suddenly no more team, and you're having to fight to keep your free gig, because some new desperate guys are already trying to snake it. Can there be anything worse than losing your free gig? And don't say not playing at all, because keeping those hours of your life for quality practice time trumps that.

2. You do a weekend gig for free you're as Miles Davis once said local as a mother****** You want to play for free, that's what open mic night is for. But don't treat it like a free gig. Treat it like a pay gig. Don't dress like an idiot. Don't bring drinks on the stand and behave like an idiot. Open mic is official neutral ground. It's an around the clock audition, and you get to save face for doing a freebie because it's open mic. That also includes nice showcases. On the other hand, weekend freebies at your local club, are played by people who don't think they're good enough to be treated better. And no its not about exposure, unless your idea of exposure is having everyone know that you'll play for free at the drop of a hat.

3. Why ever pay a club for the right to play when you can use that money to find a hall on your own, promote your own show, try to break even, save some face, and learn something about how to maybe make some money later.

4. You play for $20, then you're forever labeled a $20 drummer, unless its a kicks band where good players of equal talent have always used it for lofty playing on an off night.

5. If people want you, they'll give you the $200 or more you think you're worth.

6. If you're a player the same talent level as the $200+ guy and people want you, but you ask for $20, that's what they're paying you because a deal's a deal. That also goes for free.

7. You are what you eat. If you're a drummer willing to eat crow, then you're a crow. And I'm betting those wings don't work that ride cymbal very well.
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  #66  
Old 02-06-2009, 03:51 AM
Ekim Ekim is offline
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

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Originally Posted by anth_ony View Post
No need to be so harsh, Ekim..

...we weren't that bad..
Funny...

But really, when I'm doing my best to ignore a band because they are awful, but the drummer's time is so bad that a bungled fill PULLS me out of a conversation...

... that's bad.

I guess it doesn't help that popular music sucks so bad these days too.
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  #67  
Old 02-06-2009, 03:56 AM
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Spreggy Spreggy is offline
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith View Post
Here's the way it was taught to me, and it seems to be this way.

1. Most club owners want something for nothing, because they think the world doesn't understand how hard they have it with all their hidden expenses. So after they pay off their sound system and make some rennovations to bring the place up to code, they want everybody to pitch in like we're all this big team. So the first thing they want is a free band, and there's always someone desperate enough to oblige, who has illusions of being paid something when the club starts doing better.

2. When the club starts thriving, there's suddenly no more team, and you're having to fight to keep your free gig, because some new desperate guys are already trying to snake it. Can there be anything worse than losing your free gig? And don't say not playing at all, because keeping those hours of your life for quality practice time trumps that.

2. You do a weekend gig for free you're as Miles Davis once said local as a mother****** You want to play for free, that's what open mic night is for. But don't treat it like a free gig. Treat it like a pay gig. Don't dress like an idiot. Don't bring drinks on the stand and behave like an idiot. Open mic is official neutral ground. It's an around the clock audition, and you get to save face for doing a freebie because it's open mic. That also includes nice showcases. On the other hand, weekend freebies at your local club, are played by people who don't think they're good enough to be treated better. And no its not about exposure, unless your idea of exposure is having everyone know that you'll play for free at the drop of a hat.

3. Why ever pay a club for the right to play when you can use that money to find a hall on your own, promote your own show, try to break even, save some face, and learn something about how to maybe make some money later.

4. You play for $20, then you're forever labeled a $20 drummer, unless its a kicks band where good players of equal talent have always used it for lofty playing on an off night.

5. If people want you, they'll give you the $200 or more you think you're worth.

6. If you're a player the same talent level as the $200+ guy and people want you, but you ask for $20, that's what they're paying you because a deal's a deal. That also goes for free.

7. You are what you eat. If you're a drummer willing to eat crow, then you're a crow. And I'm betting those wings don't work that ride cymbal very well.
The force is strong in this one. Great post Matt.
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Old 02-06-2009, 08:25 AM
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DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spreggy View Post
What I have seen is that there are bars that have geared themselves toward the performance, and they pay alright. For example, one of my faves to visit when I exhibit at the Summer NAMM show in Nashville is Bourbon Street's. The venue is set up around the stage, they do a killer business (at least during NAMM week), and the bands are kick-butt blues bands. There's a good chance that if you go there during NAMM week, even though it's NAMM week with bands everywhere, the best thing you see all week will be there. They've gotta be paying those guys decent dough.

Some medium scale/upscale restaurants will pay Jazz combos alright also. I think if your goal is to play music for young people, you're out of luck in the money dept.
From what I understand, there are so many bars with bands in Nashville, and so many more drummers trying to break into the scene that is gets pretty cut throat, and most guys don't make very much per night.

Supply and demand, and the demand for live drummers is pretty low compared to the supply in many areas.
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Old 02-06-2009, 05:19 PM
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rogue_drummer rogue_drummer is offline
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

Great post, Matt. Thanks!
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  #70  
Old 02-08-2009, 10:53 PM
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Supply and demand, and the demand for live drummers is pretty low compared to the supply in many areas.
But, are the drummers in the supply good or bad drummers?
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:23 AM
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Tim Waterson Tim Waterson is offline
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Default Re: Musicians need to learn how to say NO

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
From what I understand, there are so many bars with bands in Nashville, and so many more drummers trying to break into the scene that is gets pretty cut throat, and most guys don't make very much per night.

Supply and demand, and the demand for live drummers is pretty low compared to the supply in many areas.
drumeatdrum dont eat your drums LOL
Im not just talking about gigs....
managers, agents, and I also said the post should be titled learn when to say KNOW..LOL
TIm
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