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Old 04-16-2019, 10:23 AM
Someone's Dad Someone's Dad is offline
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Default Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

Iím a fan of Rick Beatoís YouTube videos and I thought this one was pretty insightful:

How computers ruined rock music

Last edited by Someone's Dad; 04-16-2019 at 10:24 AM. Reason: Posted prematurely
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:27 AM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

Sorry, posted prematurely - was going to say that Iíve recently been revisiting a whole bunch of bands from the 90s that I wasnít into first time around. And I think this is part of the phenomenon. I find it much easier to get into pre-2000s bandís than their modern equivalents. Maybe itís just my age, but maybe it is a genuine preference for music that was created before modern production techniques became ubiquitous.
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Old 04-16-2019, 02:25 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

Yea, I'm becoming a Rick Beato fanboy lol.

I thought he did a great job on this one.

Enevitably there will be comments that will point out all the trickery that went on like tape splicing etc. "50 years ago"...

But What Rick is demonstrating is in a whole other league in my opinion.

And I truly believe that analog black magic is more human than digital black magic...

Thanks for the link!
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Old 04-16-2019, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

Saw this yesterday, and I agree wholeheartedly.

My favourite part is the end where he lists the tempos in some famous songs which have a solid groove. Even within a tempo some notes should be pushed and some should be relaxed.

Iíve always argued that different sections of a song should be allowed to move. I think its because my day job includes conducting orchestras and concert bands, and expressive music like that changes tempo constantly.

Really enjoying the Beato videos.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:42 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
But What Rick is demonstrating is in a whole other league in my opinion.
I agree. I donít even think digital manipulation is a bad thing - it offers so many creative opportunities. But itís too easy and clearly overdone in modern recordings. By comparison, splicing tape is time consuming and an art in itself. I guess the effort involved helped the guys (of twenty plus years ago) know when to stop.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

I have a double standard when it comes to the Q word.

I prefer a studio recording to be gridded. Zero problem with that

I really don't want to hear metronomic time at a live show. I want human time please.

I do understand that some bands have backing tracks, and need to do that.

But I still reserve the right to not prefer it.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

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Originally Posted by Morrisman View Post
My favourite part is the end where he lists the tempos in some famous songs which have a solid groove.
It was surprising to me to see the tracks analysed. As an average listener, I never put on Roxanne and thought ďmy god, this is all over the place!Ē
Similarly, I donít listen to modern music and think ďthis was recorded by a Stepford WifeĒ, but something is missing (for me). Thereís got to be a reason why Iím picking up on bands like Dinosaur Jnr and Iím immediately hearing something in the recordings thatís making me want to listen to more. Definitely a band that passed me by back in the nineties, even though I had a couple of mates that were well into that scene.
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I have a double standard when it comes to the Q word.
I donít think a click track or some level of quantisation is a necessarily bad thing. I just think my idea of perfect is less than perfect. Iím not sure that Iíd fare that well in a test of ďthis was recorded with a click, this was recorded without, this was griddedĒ, but I think I have a subconscious bias for the human element.
Itís amazing how you can watch a recording of a live show and pick up on inconsistencies that you simply werenít aware of when you watched it live. I guess itís the energy that a human performance can give. Having said that, there are EDM acts that can lift the roof off, so itís not as simple as ďhumans good, computers badĒ.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:36 AM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

Larry just playing along to a click track doesn't qualify as quantization. Digitally snapping things to a grid is what Beato is getting at. Piecing together songs on the literal on-screen grid.

I've always been quite sensitive to it. The more "human" element I can hear in something the more emotion and excitement the more I'm likely to get into a recording.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

Interesting video. I tend to agree. The way modern rock & metal albums are produced is awful. It all sounds like the same sterile crap. No one has their own sonic identity.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:46 AM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

Well, at least now I know why the stuff from 2000 forward has been mostly non existent in my collection!
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Old 04-18-2019, 06:16 AM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

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Originally Posted by Someone's Dad View Post
It was surprising to me to see the tracks analysed. As an average listener, I never put on Roxanne and thought ďmy god, this is all over the place!Ē
Nor I, but I remember an interview with Stewart Copeland from some time in the 80s where he specifically said you need to speed up a bit going into the chorus or else it'll feel like you're slowing down. In other words, Copeland actively believed the tempo should breathe a bit, but he's so good that it simply feels organic and right when he does it.
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Old 04-18-2019, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

Thanks for the link, This video is really great. It explains a lot of thing, it explains the lifeless feeling I've got when listening some songs.
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Old 04-18-2019, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

My son's other band project is getting ready to go into the studio to record, but because of what they are and how they play, they can't really put things on a click track - while they "could" do it, it would take more effort than it's worth, so they are going to go in and live track it.

I think that having this ability is a good thing - bigger mistakes can be fixed, but I agree that a general feel/groove shouldn't be messed with. That feel is what makes us what we are as musicians. With that said, I don't think that tracking with a click track is necessarily a bad thing - it allows for some consistency with time without killing basic feel.
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Old 04-19-2019, 12:16 AM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

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Originally Posted by trickg View Post
My son's other band project is getting ready to go into the studio to record, but because of what they are and how they play, they can't really put things on a click track - while they "could" do it, it would take more effort than it's worth, so they are going to go in and live track it.

I think that having this ability is a good thing - bigger mistakes can be fixed, but I agree that a general feel/groove shouldn't be messed with. That feel is what makes us what we are as musicians. With that said, I don't think that tracking with a click track is necessarily a bad thing - it allows for some consistency with time without killing basic feel.
There seems to be some confusion... Using a click track during recording isn't what Rick is talking about here. It's the actual quantizing and snapping performances to the grid or cut/paste production that results. Humans playing along to a click isn't even in the same category as the computer-cobbled-together music he's complaining about.
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  #16  
Old 04-19-2019, 08:52 AM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

About click,
I thought click track were the norm for ages but it doesn't seem so, Rick Beato shows example from the eighties were the tempo fluctuates : Back in Black,.. and Eye of the tiger is known to accelerate throughout the title.
When does Click became the absolute norm ? I never used Live BPM to check out old Marillion, Rush or Iron Maiden records, I should give a try .

Edit : I just tried Lady Writer from dire Straits : it keeps fluctuating from 147 to 151.
Throw down the Sword by Wishbone ash fluctuates a lot - but damn it's good... :-)

Last edited by Tamaefx; 04-19-2019 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 04-19-2019, 11:21 AM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

The real question isn't when did he "click" become tbe norm.

The better question is-when did record people start to care so much about tempo fluctuations?

Maybe when those fluctuations made it too difficult for producers and engineers to "hide" imperfections with tape splicing and digital manipulation?
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Old 04-19-2019, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

I could be wrong about this, but I suspect the main reason why the click and grids have become the norm is the options it offers the producer. As you saw, Rick was able to basically reconstruct a song after all the parts were played. Without quantizing, that's much harder, if not impossible.

Hearing so much music played in perfect meter has had the effect of making us all more sensitive to tempo changes. Back in the 70s, session drummers had great time and it made them stand out. Today, a lot more drummers have it. I mean, how many drummers have metronome apps on their smartphones? Probably most of us anymore, right? It's just more of a fact of life for even the average drummer compared with 30Ė40 years ago.
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  #19  
Old 04-19-2019, 03:04 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
There seems to be some confusion... Using a click track during recording isn't what Rick is talking about here. It's the actual quantizing and snapping performances to the grid or cut/paste production that results. Humans playing along to a click isn't even in the same category as the computer-cobbled-together music he's complaining about.
No confusion - I know what he was talking about and I agree - I watched the whole video, beginning to end.

What I was referencing is what he posted at the end of the video with the songs "Back In Black" and "Roxanne" and the deviation in tempos because they didn't record to a click, but rather, they live tracked sans click as a band....kind of like what I said about what my son's band is getting ready to do in the studio soon. I don't know if those songs would have been better or not if they had been recorded to a click. (And thus, possibly still retaining the essences of feel and groove.)

Man - have I don't something wrong here recently? It's like everyone wants to pick apart my posts and prove to me that they know more than I do. It's been bad lately.
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Old 04-19-2019, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

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Originally Posted by trickg View Post
Man - have I don't something wrong here recently? It's like everyone wants to pick apart my posts and prove to me that they know more than I do. It's been bad lately.
I can't speak for the collective, but I always try to bear in mind that "typing on the Internet" isn't my first language and a lot can get lost in translation. I got what part of the video you were referring to and how it related to your son's music (on a side note - exciting times, eh?). Always hope/assume that no-one is trying to be dismissive - if they are, it's on them, not you.

Last edited by Someone's Dad; 04-19-2019 at 07:12 PM. Reason: Bad typing/spelling
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Old 04-19-2019, 07:29 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

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Originally Posted by Someone's Dad View Post
I can't speak for the collective, but I always try to bear in mind that "typing on the Internet" isn't my first language and a lot can get lost in translation. I got what part of the video you were referring to and how it related to your son's music (on a side note - exciting times, eh?). Always hope/assume that no-one is trying to be dismissive - if they are, it's on them, not you.
It could be a simple "lost-in-translation" kind of thing, but I'm a veteran of the internet forum medium, (trumpet players forums, drummers forums, drum builders forums, shooters forums - I was kind of a junkie for a bit and had to cut way back.) and this seems a bit out of the ordinary to me.

I think that certain times of the year are more prone to this - I've noticed it a lot over the years immediately following the Christmas holidays - but I'm not sure what this is.

A few days ago someone took me to task and basically told me I was too big for my britches, and that since I'd "only" been playing drums for 10 years (It's actually 15 behind the kit, and much more than that if I include rudimental snare, but who's counting, right?) that I needed to check myself at the door.

I'm just wondering if I've done or said something heinous to the point where I've now got a target on my back, because this kind of thing has been happening for a couple of weeks. I'll try to contribute to the conversation, and then, "BAM!" Someone wants to make sure I know my place. Or something like that.

But getting back to our regularly scheduled program, I enjoyed Rick Beato's video a lot - I thought he hit the nail on the head...but I've only been drumming for 10 years, so what do I know, right? ;-)
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Old 04-19-2019, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

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Originally Posted by trickg View Post
No confusion - I know what he was talking about and I agree - I watched the whole video, beginning to end.

What I was referencing is what he posted at the end of the video with the songs "Back In Black" and "Roxanne" and the deviation in tempos because they didn't record to a click, but rather, they live tracked sans click as a band....kind of like what I said about what my son's band is getting ready to do in the studio soon. I don't know if those songs would have been better or not if they had been recorded to a click. (And thus, possibly still retaining the essences of feel and groove.)

Man - have I don't something wrong here recently? It's like everyone wants to pick apart my posts and prove to me that they know more than I do. It's been bad lately.

First; my apologies for making you feel attacked... I was responding to more than one post which I thought was equating Rick's comments simply to click recording. I like your input here and the last thing I want is to discourage that.

Secondly, I bet some of the songs that rick analysed and had pegged as click-less might have had a click going in the studio, and just not worried about pegging every note on a click blip. It's very possible, often even advisable to have it going simply as a general reference to the tempo range you want to stay in. With practice it's totally even legit to push or pull against a click track for certain parts; it's also valid to literally program click tracks that do their own speed up or slow down operations. In a few cases I've removed the accents so it doesn't really matter where the 1's go as long as we stay in general with the beeps the tempo can end up sounding more solid but with some flow and variation.
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Old 04-20-2019, 03:43 AM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

Ok - that's fair, and I've actually experienced that with a couple of big band CD projects i was a part of. The drummer had the click - no one else - and we didn't always stay on it, but it was there as a general reference so that we didn't run away with tempos, nor did we turn tunes into a dirge.

Regarding the other bit, no sweat - I'm pretty thick skinned and I get over things quickly. :-)
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Old 04-20-2019, 06:39 AM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

I've been using a click ever since I began playing this damned instrument a few years ago. I even use it when I'm jotting down a motif so I can remember it later, which allows me to loop it and listen for where and on which instruments I need to dedicate some practice time.

Example motif: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAgwenr-O5w

As far as quant goes, it really only makes sense if you want a quantized feel. If your part has a lope to it, a lazy kick, or a lazy snare, etc, quantization will ultimately ruin the song.

I love Rick despite the clickbait titles on his vids.
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Old 04-20-2019, 03:31 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

I love how titles designed to grab your attention are dissed as being "clickbait"...

Lol

As if titles should not be written in a way to get you to get your attention?

Would you click on this? "An Examination of the Use of Computer Software and it's Impact on the Production of Modern Pop Songs By the Quantizating of Beats and Tempo" by Rick Beato. Lol

A true "clickbait" title is a title designed to get you to click on a link regardless of the worthlessness or inappropriateness of the material it takes you too.

I don't see any of that with Rick's material. It always has value and his titles are pretty much dead on in their assertions.
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Old 04-20-2019, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
I love how titles designed to grab your attention are dissed as being "clickbait"...
How computers ruined Rock Music
How THE LICK killed jazz
The four chords that killed pop music.

Dissing these titles as clickbait, as they imply that rock, jazz, and pop are somehow dead, or no longer as glorious as their formative selves, when in fact the opposite is true.

Dissing these titles because they disparage the use of the four chords, the lick, and computers, when there are numerous situations and creative permutations where they may be entirely appropriate.

I click on Rick for a pseudo cerebral analysis of music and musical works, and because it offers more to me than a reaction video of some rando non-musician listening to Queen for the first time. His "What makes this song great" series is a divine gift.

I'd have still clicked on Rick's video if it had matched the thread title.
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Old 04-29-2019, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

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Originally Posted by Someone's Dad View Post
I don’t listen to modern music and think “this was recorded by a Stepford Wife”...
I certainly do.

I think of it like this. If I'm a two-year-old, I like the bright shiny object, preferably in a primary colour. If I'm an adult, the same thing looks like a cheap plastic toy.

Most recordings since the mid 80's make music sound like a cheap plastic toy spit out of a factory in China.

These days almost the only Rock recordings that catch my ear are lo-fi stuff and live recordings.

On the plus side, all this cheap electronic processing has pushed me more toward Blues and Jazz. Those guys still make recordings that sound like actual bands.

And it isn't just Pop and Rock music. You can listen to recorded music from all around the world and the quality peaks in the 70's and then falls off a cliff in the 80's when all the cheap electronic processing became available.
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Old 04-30-2019, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Rick Beato on grid-based music (quantisation)

That was a good one, went on a little long.
Pretty sad state, if people producing simply want musicians in one at a time, give their parts in one take...for assembly later by some algorithm. What a sterile bore.
I love studio albums, but always felt the real picture of a band has always been their live albums. And yes I know some/many live albums have dubbed parts, even dubbed audiences, but not like this.
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