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  #1  
Old 04-19-2016, 06:42 PM
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mmulcahy1 mmulcahy1 is offline
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Default How Much Honesty is Too Much?

The reason I ask is that there was a thread yesterday by "james*****music" where he was playing along to "Sunshine of Your love." Many people, myself included, replied on his thread and commented that his timing was off.

Well, long story short, I can't find any evidence of his thread, my post, or the fact that he ever (so briefly) existed.

Is our honest constructive criticism sometime a little too honest and viewed at times as being too harsh as well? I'll admit, that I have thicker skin than when I first signed on here and take suggestions and criticism much better now than ever before. But, are we (collectively) a bit too judgmental of others' playing at times?

I think we scared him off!!
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Last edited by mmulcahy1; 04-19-2016 at 07:06 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-19-2016, 06:56 PM
brentcn brentcn is online now
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Always a good idea to say a few honest, positive things before going into the criticism. Purely negative comments, without the positive, will seem mean-spirited, no matter how accurate. If some positivity happens first, and then the criticism, then it's up to the maturity of the recipient at that point.

But, there's a tendency on the internet to comment first and ask questions later. There's this need to be the first to say something -- anything at all -- and manners are forgotten. As if that weren't bad enough, there's a tendency to echo what previous commenters have said, a sort of mob mentality. So a negative comment, in first position, elicits more of the same.

Not sure if this happened or not, but the internet is a dangerous place. We feel anonymous (whether true or not), and can respond instantly. People are nicer in letters, since it takes time and gives the author a chance to cool off.
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:12 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

I'll go one step further and say people are much nicer in person.
BUT, if you post and ask for comments as many do, then you have to expect the full range of replies - from kind and constructive criticism (which this person received and did not take to) to the derogatory and unfair.
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:20 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
Always a good idea to say a few honest, positive things before going into the criticism. Purely negative comments, without the positive, will seem mean-spirited, no matter how accurate. If some positivity happens first, and then the criticism, then it's up to the maturity of the recipient at that point.
I prefer negative first, then positive, rather than the "Good but ..." approach, as one tends to focus on the negatives, but better again is the A-B-A approach: positive criticism, negative criticism, and positive again so that the first and last elements are both pleasant. Makes the bitter pill a bit sweeter.

Much of the difficulty comes about because "we" (I didn't see the post) often aren't aware of the context. What is a great piece of playing for somebody like me would certainly not be great for countless other people on the forum. We don't know how much work a person has put in, in order to achieve what they're doing, however many inaccuracies there are. If we did, that would almost certainly influence our replies, even though it wouldn't change our judgement.
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Two things. If you chose to post a performance of yourself you are almost inviting comment. In effect it's "Look at me".

Secondly, If you chose to watch clips of someone playing, are you watching for entertainment or merely hoping to pick faults?

I would never post my performances on the web cos I see no value in it, personally. I am not a pro drummer so I don't need to sell myself. Also, I am aware of my shortcomings and don't feel the need to have them pointed out. Other than that I am more than happy with my drumming and surprisingly so is the band I am in.
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  #6  
Old 04-19-2016, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmulcahy1 View Post
The reason I ask is that there was a thread yesterday by "james*****music" where he was playing along to "Sunshine of Your love." Many people, myself included, replied on his thread and commented that his timing was off.

Well, long story short, I can't find any evidence of his thread, my post, or the fact that he ever (so briefly) existed.

Is our honest constructive criticism sometime a little too honest and viewed at times as being too harsh as well? I'll admit, that I have thicker skin than when I first signed on here and take suggestions and criticism much better now than ever before. But, are we (collectively) a bit too judgmental of others' playing at times?

I think we scared him off!!
I mirror your sentiments to the "T" Mitch. I too searched and realized that James got the hell outta Dodge. People learn the most from the hard to swallow comments, sting as they may. I think we did him a solid in the long run. Like being a parent, sometimes it takes what it takes. James was going down the road of self delusion IMO, and it's hard to stand by seeing that happen and not doing anything about it. Sure, we could have sugar coated it better, but the hard to swallow part would still be there. If James thinks we are all a big bad mob who ganged up on him for no good reason....we all know that's not the spirit it was intended. We either woke him up or made him quit, or I guess it's possible he's blocking it out. I hope not.

Just last night I attended a jam and this singer that I know, wasn't able to tell the band what key her songs were in. It wasted a lot of time while she sung it and waited for these guys to figure it out. Later on she was lamenting about it to me...how it took so long for the guys to figure it out, and I told her flat out that as a singer, she needs to know the keys. Greater good and all, it had to be said.

She didn't want to hear that, but whatever. She claimed it doesn't do any good, and I was thinking what? Can't agree with that.
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  #7  
Old 04-19-2016, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

I thought the responses ranged from diplomatic to direct, but there was nothing harsh said, just the plain truth in a various nice and direct ways.

The response to his video could certainly have been deliberately nasty and humorous, and I can only imagine what he might have to encounter if auditioning for a band in person.

It had also occurred to me after seeing his YT channel, that his various videos are a put-on. His response beckoning additional opinions suggests that as well. Hard to know without him confirming or denying it.

But I think everyone handled it in an appropriate manner.

Bermuda
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  #8  
Old 04-19-2016, 08:12 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

And this is why I've never uploaded a video of my playing.

I give myself enough grief over my drumming. No need for a chorus.
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  #9  
Old 04-19-2016, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

I didn't see the thread but I know that any criticism can be like a dagger to the scrotum for sensitive type musicians.

Maybe the poster was young?

I learned long ago not to ask if you are not prepared to hear the answer.
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  #10  
Old 04-19-2016, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
I thought the responses ranged from diplomatic to direct, but there was nothing harsh said, just the plain truth in a various nice and direct ways.

The response to his video could certainly have been deliberately nasty and humorous, and I can only imagine what he might have to encounter if auditioning for a band in person.

It had also occurred to me after seeing his YT channel, that his various videos are a put-on. His response beckoning additional opinions suggests that as well. Hard to know without him confirming or denying it.

But I think everyone handled it in an appropriate manner.

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  #11  
Old 04-19-2016, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

There is a diplomacy that exists between peers that is often lost on forums. More often than not, people are unable to convert forum lingo into something constructive. It's a major let-down.

As someone that is perpetually dissatisfied with my own playing, it's easy for me to accept that other drummers would be less than pleased with my performance. Even when I feel that I've achieved a goal, I'm confronted with the reality of my limitations shortly thereafter.

There's a metaphor that I once heard that applies to this:

Every day, I climb the big shit-mountain. As soon as I approach the top, and think I'm about to get my first breath of sweet fresh air, they knock me right back down again.

The solution is to suck it up and get back to practice.
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  #12  
Old 04-19-2016, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

If you post something on the internet (or forum), then you are inviting praise and/or criticism, especially, if your post expressly asks for comments.

I did not see the thread, but I'm sure the comments were meant to help the drummer improve. I do not think I have ever read any malicious critiques on this forum since joining.

If the comments were too truthful (or unsettling), then the individual should examine why the truth differed so much from his own perception.

I find this forum to be a valuable resource for drumming education, musical growth, etc. In my experience, the members always offer advice meant to facilitate improvement; of course, reasonable minds can differ sometimes. I enjoy the positivity and camaraderie.
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  #13  
Old 04-20-2016, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

It's a shame that James left the group. I thought he showed a passion for music in general and initially was excited to share his video but his sail got deflated when folks (including me) pointed out his timing issue.

I read all the comments (as of last evening) and not one was hateful or mean-spirited.

His YouTube channel has a lot of music performances by him and I feel he was expecting praise rather than critique.

Here is his channel.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf3...x4J-FNMMdd1QZA

I personally expect everyone here to be honest with me when I post something. He may have not expected the same.
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  #14  
Old 04-20-2016, 12:09 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

If I think back to all the people who commented on my drumming since I began, I am most thankful for the negative criticism, because that's the stuff that helped me grow. I remember one incident that was a little unnerving for me, actually a bit unfair - that propelled me into a practice regime that has made me much better.. So I'm glad I had my feelings hurt.
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  #15  
Old 04-20-2016, 12:41 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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Originally Posted by Duck Tape View Post
If I think back to all the people who commented on my drumming since I began, I am most thankful for the negative criticism, because that's the stuff that helped me grow. I remember one incident that was a little unnerving for me, actually a bit unfair - that propelled me into a practice regime that has made me much better.. So I'm glad I had my feelings hurt.
This is about the most honest, mature and healthy response anyone could hope for.

How it came from you Dre I'm not sure.

KIDDING! I meant every word.

I'm running for cover anyway.
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  #16  
Old 04-20-2016, 12:52 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

When a forum member sends a PM to the mods for attention, I get an email. I got an email early this morning 00:48 hours DST. I was in bed and read the request to delete the thread but was being in bed thought I would handle it when I woke up. When I got out of bed this morning the thread was gone. I'm sure he wasn't expecting the response he got, but every member that responded offered positives and ways to improve. He wasn't slammed but treated with respect in this matter. The members are to be commended for being positive. Some years ago I made a comment to a member looking for criticism and again, was positive, as were others. I had to delete much of his response for language, and that made the matter worse. He left on his own. It will happen from time to time.
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:10 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Better for him to take any knocks here somewhat anonymously than subjecting others to his delusion, and hearing it from them face to face. We did it for his audiences protection, yea, that's the ticket. We were as nice as could be expected considering what he gave us and what he asked for. I don't see how he could not hear himself playing way too far ahead of everything on playback.

If we all said hey man that's great...would that have been better?

I'm going with no.

As long as he doesn't kill himself I'm going with no.
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  #18  
Old 04-20-2016, 02:19 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I don't see how he could not hear himself playing way too far ahead of everything on playback.

If we all said hey man that's great...would that have been better?

I'm going with no.

As long as he doesn't kill himself I'm going with no.
Had the same q myself, but then I started to consider the possibility that this fellow is differently abled. We tend to presume everyone comes from the same cognitive background, but brains can work very differently. Would explain a few things... I truly hope his love of music and passion for playing take him where he would like to go.
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  #19  
Old 04-20-2016, 02:40 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

I missed this entire thread. I wish I could've seen the video. I'm sure I could speculate without having seen it. But it is rather strange to me that people who post videos in public, ask for constructive criticism, and then get all "ferklempt" when they can't handle what's being said, actually happen.

I would think there's delusion going on right there before we even see anything - to think you'll get nothing but positive comments for your hard work on display in the world wide web.

But even that doesn't stop ALOT of people. I was cruising the YouTube yesterday and there are so many sub-standard drummers out there doing drum covers, that I think it has created an entire new genre of musical level. These people are even helping others. I saw a female who couldn't keep time if her life depended on it teach people how to get started with double bass drums. There's another young gentlemen out there giving drum lessons who does ok with his groove, so long as you don't mind a lot of mindless fills going on, and lots of stick twirling. So the talent runs the gamut, and it's not just drummers, every instrument is getting this new category of player - the "I can't really play but I can give a clinic" type of musician, I guess.

So I dunno - on the one hand I commend people who put their work out there for all the world to see, but you have to be able to take it when people don't like it. That's why you play music, or are basically an artist. You're whole existence is about being judged worthy. I think if you understand that, then life would be much more enjoyable. People just have to stop taking themselves so seriously.

Heck, I put up videos of myself, but I'm usually the first one laughing ;)
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Old 04-20-2016, 02:53 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Bo, scroll up to post # 13 to see his channel.
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  #21  
Old 04-20-2016, 03:01 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Quote:
His YouTube channel has a lot of music performances by him and I feel he was expecting praise rather than critique.
Well, I had to look.

"Timing issues" was being extremely polite.

Anyone can learn, but James has a long road ahead of him. If he is only a year into playing music, he is on track. But, I don't think you should post videos a year in unless you are a phenom.
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  #22  
Old 04-20-2016, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Bo, scroll up to post # 13 to see his channel.
OMG! That's amazing! I especially enjoyed his "My Generation" drum cover! Why isn't this guy being hired by everybody? Hehehehehe!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kLv-2EZh4s

OK - I realize I'm encouraging people to laugh, and it's not usually my style. BUT - I have to wonder if it's this way because this is the reaction they want? It leans towards Jenns Hannemann for some reason - and we all enjoy that guy ;)

My apologies. I just had to subscribe.
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  #23  
Old 04-20-2016, 06:54 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Ick that sounded like cheap electronic drums.
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  #24  
Old 04-20-2016, 07:07 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

I felt bad about James's reaction. I was the first to respond on his thread, and went out of my way to gently introduce the timing issue on "Sunshine", but he wasn't hearing it, even dismissing my suggestion and inviting more opinions. When more opinions were offered, he bailed.

I can't think how I could have been more supportive - encouraging him to stick around so we could all help him on his journey, stating that we all have much to learn - myself especially, etc.

To heap unqualified praise on his playing would only serve to reinforce his overly positive view of his playing, and IMO, compounded his playing issues further down the line.
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:08 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

This reminds me of one of those tv talent shows where a contestant gives a truly embarrassingly awful performance, gets completetly slated by the judges (far more than could ever happen on here) and then goes off in tears and can't believe how anyone could criticize them. It's because until that point everyone has been too nice, giving this person a false sense of value.

For an issue as essential as timing, it needed to be addressed to the young man sooner rather than later. It will be doing him a favour in the long run. I didn't read the thread but I've seen the video in question. The problem is that sometimes we get so wrapped up in what we do, we pur out blinkers on and fail to see things from the outside. Like a person in a relationship with the wrong partner. Everyone can see it's not working except the person in the relationship. It's also why businesses hire external consultants.
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:11 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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I felt bad about James's reaction.
In a word.

Don't.

You were fair, kind, honest, helpful and constructive. The fact the guy didn't have the balls to hear what he so badly needed to hear is no fault of yours.......or anyone else's for that matter.
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:18 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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I felt bad about James's reaction.
Andy you told him exactly what was needed to be told. Which is why I did not bother to post in that thread.

I wonder where he found those horribly uninspiring recordings of the songs?


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  #28  
Old 04-20-2016, 09:18 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

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Originally Posted by Erberderber View Post
This reminds me of one of those tv talent shows where a contestant gives a truly embarrassingly awful performance, gets completetly slated by the judges (far more than could ever happen on here) and then goes off in tears and can't believe how anyone could criticize them. It's because until that point everyone has been too nice, giving this person a false sense of value.

For an issue as essential as timing, it needed to be addressed to the young man sooner rather than later. It will be doing him a favour in the long run. I didn't read the thread but I've seen the video in question. The problem is that sometimes we get so wrapped up in what we do, we pur out blinkers on and fail to see things from the outside. Like a person in a relationship with the wrong partner. Everyone can see it's not working except the person in the relationship. It's also why businesses hire external consultants.
Agreed, but its a different issue. Talent shows sometimes put on an awful act so they can humiliate them in public, Its called entertainment apparently. You cant tell me the poor acts cant be weeded out at the early audition stage.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Erberderber View Post
This reminds me of one of those tv talent shows where a contestant gives a truly embarrassingly awful performance, gets completetly slated by the judges (far more than could ever happen on here) and then goes off in tears and can't believe how anyone could criticize them. It's because until that point everyone has been too nice, giving this person a false sense of value.

For an issue as essential as timing, it needed to be addressed to the young man sooner rather than later. It will be doing him a favour in the long run. I didn't read the thread but I've seen the video in question. The problem is that sometimes we get so wrapped up in what we do, we pur out blinkers on and fail to see things from the outside. Like a person in a relationship with the wrong partner. Everyone can see it's not working except the person in the relationship. It's also why businesses hire external consultants.
Well, if his YouTube channel is any indication, he's been at this for the long run. He has a lot of videos up, some on different instruments even. I've listened to two, but I'll bet they're all pretty lacking. So yes, the boy has blinders on and his friends and family probably tell him he's doing great and that it will lead somewhere.

Or, maybe his friends and family are being nice because maybe he's working through some inner angst and this is his way of dealing with life. And in a positive sense, that's great. Then I would feel bad because I don't know the whole story. But at the same time, if somebody says "check out my video" without explaining to me who they are and what they're working on personally, then all I can do is state an opinion of what I see and hear.
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  #30  
Old 04-20-2016, 10:58 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

This is the problem with YT, it allows people to show off the little bubble they've created to the rest of the world.

It's the same with Xfactor, the voice etc, people who sit in their bedroom all day build themselves up to be the next big thing but instead of starting at the bottom like a lot of us did doing jam nights/garage bands with friends, they put things out for millions of people to see and people tell them how it is.

It's not having a go it's just the truth hurts for some. Sadly we live in a world where people are professionally offended these days. I've always said it's better to make mistakes and look an idiot if you're playing a bar or pub in front of no-one than the internet, tv or social media.

I've checked his channel out and he does need to work on his timing which if you're a drummer/bassist is a very big deal. Try getting a paid gig with timing issues, it won't happen.

I don't think there's any recordings of me playing on YT, other than the wedding promos which are mimed which is probably worse for the old pride :) But having done a decent grounding when I was in my teens, you learn to handle much worse situations than someone calling you names on the internet.
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Old 04-20-2016, 11:24 AM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

I'm a member of another forum dedicated to local bands. There's a rule that says no "slagging off" of other bands, their performances, videos etc and it's right and proper to have this rule in place because otherwise things could quickly escalate into a bloodbath. However the downside is that no matter how average a performance might be, you'll see either only good comments, or no comments at all. This isn't really helping anyone (although in fairness it's not there to help, someone might simply be posting a review or a phone shot video of a band that they've got nothing to do with and it wouldn't be right for someone else who was there to start laying on the criticism) and it also puts that nagging fear in your head that if your band is mentioned and no one says anything then is it because no one knows about you, or because they do and they're too polite to tell it like it is!
The poster in question here has started to take videos down by the look of it. Without knowing him or his situation it's impossible to know what the context of his performances are but having listened to one then I have to say that his timing is bad on that one performance. His channel also does seem to come across as him advertising himself so in my opinion he unfortunately is pro actively leaving himself wide open to truthful negative comments.

On another note I've been looking at a couple of songs for a new band I'm in that I needed help with. One drum cover was spot on for me and I learned what I needed to, and have spent time getting it as right as I can. It's possibly not a perfect interpretation but it's close, predictably (as per YouTube custom) there were a few comments pointing out the shortcomings :-/ Another video for another song was simply a bloke bashing on the 2 and the 4 (FYI it was a shuffle pattern I'm looking for) and doing a pretty awful job. One YouTube comment was there and it went along the lines of "Excellent job on this, very useful". Go figure.
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  #32  
Old 04-20-2016, 12:08 PM
mikel mikel is offline
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woolwich View Post
I'm a member of another forum dedicated to local bands. There's a rule that says no "slagging off" of other bands, their performances, videos etc and it's right and proper to have this rule in place because otherwise things could quickly escalate into a bloodbath. However the downside is that no matter how average a performance might be, you'll see either only good comments, or no comments at all. This isn't really helping anyone (although in fairness it's not there to help, someone might simply be posting a review or a phone shot video of a band that they've got nothing to do with and it wouldn't be right for someone else who was there to start laying on the criticism) and it also puts that nagging fear in your head that if your band is mentioned and no one says anything then is it because no one knows about you, or because they do and they're too polite to tell it like it is!
The poster in question here has started to take videos down by the look of it. Without knowing him or his situation it's impossible to know what the context of his performances are but having listened to one then I have to say that his timing is bad on that one performance. His channel also does seem to come across as him advertising himself so in my opinion he unfortunately is pro actively leaving himself wide open to truthful negative comments.

On another note I've been looking at a couple of songs for a new band I'm in that I needed help with. One drum cover was spot on for me and I learned what I needed to, and have spent time getting it as right as I can. It's possibly not a perfect interpretation but it's close, predictably (as per YouTube custom) there were a few comments pointing out the shortcomings :-/ Another video for another song was simply a bloke bashing on the 2 and the 4 (FYI it was a shuffle pattern I'm looking for) and doing a pretty awful job. One YouTube comment was there and it went along the lines of "Excellent job on this, very useful". Go figure.
Possibly cos the last generation, in Britain anyway, have grown up in the atmosphere that no one "Fails" anything, ever. Fail an exam at school? that's ok, keep re taking it till you pass. Competitive sport? cant have that as some are not so good as others, dont want them to feel left out.

No wonder parents or teachers are frightened to give anyone negative but helpful feedback. Little Jimmy wants a drum kit? Why not. Lessons? Yea, how many, Mum and Dad will pay and transport you too and from the tutor. As has been said, you need to be able to handle a bit of failure, spend time climbing the ladder, making sacrifices and saving for your own instrument, or how will you know what success really feels like.
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Old 04-20-2016, 12:48 PM
AxisDrummer AxisDrummer is offline
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

I am speechless. I am without speech.

So I checked out the channel. First video I viewed was Smashing Pumpkins' Cherub Rock. I was curious because my band just started covering it. Yikes....

Then I saw that he covered Let It Go from the Frozen movie. I lasted 5 seconds.

Then he has a "Drum Solo"....but curiously enough it's just the audio.

I know "people in glass houses shouldn't....etc...." and my singer/guitarist points out when my BPM sways a couple beats either way on some songs.....but this was rough. AND for what it's worth, I'd never put a video of myself up playing a drum cover. I feel like cringing when I view my band's promo videos.
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:48 PM
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Juniper Juniper is offline
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

I didn’t see the thread so can’t comment on his responses/attitude but I’m not going to beat on the guy as he’s probably seeing this. If so all I will say is good on you for putting yourself out there but more importantly off the back of other peoples comments on the original thread learn to take critique in a good way, especially if you have asked for comments.

If he’s only been playing a short period he should take criticism in a positive manner and work on improving, but also hats off to him for putting himself out there for people to view. I have viewed a couple of videos and its apparent work is needed in a few key areas has been touched on, but I guess we all have improvements to make. Also, it looks as If he’s learning two instruments at one time, which might be something to take into consideration.

In general, it just looks to be another person getting into the whole Youtube song cover thing and letting their head take over, which is rife in the younger community but no massive deal.

On one of my social media accounts for example I have a 10 or so year old who’s giving drum lessons with a high level video production behind him, still very much in the early stages of his playing going by his videos and his level of ability but it comes across maybe he already feels he’s at a level as almost an authority (if that’s the right word) on the drums by putting his videos out there, which is strange to me. I suspect his Parents may have a part in that one though…...

I personally don’t agree/like this new trend as I am from the approuch of 'Play with as many actual musicians you can' but also not something I come across a lot of as I don’t go searching on YouTube for these things.

Each to their own I guess.
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Old 04-20-2016, 02:02 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

What Andy posted above is spot on. The guy said a few things and then said he wanted a second , or more opinions and I guess wasn't happy with those either. As I stated before everyone here was 100% honest and supportive and gave suggestions and has nothing to feel bad about. Next contestant please.
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Old 04-20-2016, 02:17 PM
Woolwich Woolwich is offline
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

I agree with Juniper that the drummer is probably seeing this because as each video gets mentioned in the thread it's being taken down. I also agree that he needs to take criticism on board and use it to improve as opposed to taking it as a personal insult, and this is a lot easier said than done and I say this as someone who had a "coach" foisted on my job role for a short period of time and had to be told what I was doing wrong and what I was doing right from someone who I considered to be a contemporary at best, my "junior" at worst.

However I can't agree that he should be applauded for putting himself out there. I often hear people saying that anyone who gets up on a stage (and YouTube can be described as a stage) should be applauded for their efforts. I've always disagreed with this. Anyone putting the effort into whatever they're doing which results in them giving a good performance should be applauded (& this can be defined in many different ways, I'm not suggesting a group of Junior School children doing their best should be compared to Toto), but I'm quite fed up of seeing under rehearsed and under skilled bands being given kudos simply for being up there when they themselves haven't taken the endeavour seriously enough. Every person is measured in a different way but in this instance we're talking about an adult with a rather large YouTube channel, not a young teenager making his very first mistake in public. I'll mitigate this by saying that things have changed in this modern world. I had the benefit of making all my mistakes in my younger days behind closed doors, I believe it's normal nowadays to share lots more on social media and what's happened here is a side effect of that. Maybe if I turned the clock back 20 odd years I might be doing something similiar, or maybe not.

Our band has started filming performances to use when touting for gigs and the number of mistakes made and room for improvement evident, had me suggesting that out of a whole gigs worth of songs, only a small handful were good enough to share. And I'm talking about songs where 99.99% of the performance was spot on but someone missed a cue or dropped a bum note. The vanity of seeing yourself playing on a TV screen simply HAS to be put to one side in favour considering the long term consequences of putting a badly sub par performance out for all to see. In a live performance mistakes happen and are immediately consigned to the past, on a video though anyone watching is perfectly at liberty to wonder how bad a band is if their best videos that they're happy for people to see contain mistakes.
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Old 04-20-2016, 02:27 PM
lmcrash lmcrash is offline
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Judgmental and giving honest advice are not the same . Advice can seem harsh to someone not used to it. Because of the vast degree of experience on here it may be hard for a newer person to see the difference.It's all good .
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Old 04-20-2016, 02:44 PM
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Quote:

but I'm quite fed up of seeing under rehearsed and under skilled bands being given kudos simply for being up there when they themselves haven't taken the endeavour seriously enough.

I would agree with most of your post, but this was one person, who in my opinion, wasn't on a stage performing, being paid to perform, and looking for kudos. This was a guy look for criticism, maybe practicing, looking for feed back, and just didn't like what he got. Young people making the attempt, and bands lacking in effort are two different things. I hate participation trophies and the like where everyone gets one, but acknowledging effort I find useful. You can encourage someone who has given a bad performance simply by being honest. Some, like in this case, will not understand the encouragement and take it negatively.
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Old 04-20-2016, 03:04 PM
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GetAgrippa GetAgrippa is offline
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

Andy was the first to respond and very gentle to address the timing issue-don't feel bad man you were very polite and supportive. But I understand-I would feel the same-and I can empathize with the poor dude receiving the criticism-sometimes it's really initially hard to absorb something like that (esp. when you've put some effort in it and "feel like" you are progressing) and you're in shock. I looked at his videos too-he plays guitar also so I think he is trying numerous instruments. I chimed in how great it is to get positive criticism here-i.e. something that helps the person be better not just mean spirited dig. To be fair he did ask for a critique and I hope he reads the thread and realize we are a supportive community and would love to see him improve. You can't fix a problem if you don't know it exists-I discovered that videoing my playing and discovered WTF?? Dre mentioned how the positive criticism has helped him, I retorted the same. I think past experiences may have a lot to do with it-if people have criticized you just being mean then positive criticism is something new to you.
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Old 04-20-2016, 03:51 PM
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larryace larryace is offline
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Default Re: How Much Honesty is Too Much?

It sounds to me that this could be the very first unbiased and non-congratulating thing this person has heard, judging from his subsequent taking down of videos. I can empathize with his pain. It hurts when you have your illusions shattered. I think our comments obviously affected him and perhaps he is taking it to heart. Which would be the best thing for his playing. I actually feel good that his little world was shattered, because his previous mindset was very unhealthy, not at all honest, and detrimental to his progress. Medicine tastes bad for a reason. He is either experiencing growing pains, and they smart, or he is inserting his head in the sand. I hope it's the former. I think he felt publicly embarrassed, with good reason. Public embarrassment is hard to get over, it really cuts deep into the ego.

It's one thing that while a person is playing to be a little deluded, I did so for many years. But to listen back afterwards, when your brain can spend all it's resources on listening, and to still think it's OK...that's the real issue. If he made the video, and couldn't hear the rushing afterwards, that's real delusion. I learned I couldn't trust my own perceptions while playing (when I first started recording myself) but my perceptions were just fine listening back. I could easily hear that yea, I can see where I missed the mark. That's when I knew I needed an unbiased capture device so I could later reconcile what I thought happened....with what actually happened.
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Last edited by larryace; 04-20-2016 at 04:06 PM.
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