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  #1  
Old 11-30-2015, 03:43 AM
Lickety Britches Lickety Britches is offline
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Default Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

I made an internal mounting system for my kick drum for live purposes, similar to the Kelly Shu model.

When I have the front head off, the placement where I have it sounds really good to me, but as soon as I put the front head on, it sounds pretty bad (see clip below). I did this mainly because I didn't want to cut a hole in my front head. Is the problem I am getting due to not have a port in the front head?

I have attached a clip that has 3 sets of different kicks.
The first one has the reso head off, Batter tuned lower
Second has reso head off, Batter tuned a little higher
Then the third has the front head back on.

Putting the front head back on just kills the tone in every way. My batter is an EMAD2 and my Reso is a Fiberskyn. Any ideas?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ick%20Test.mp3
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2015, 04:21 AM
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Vintage Old School Vintage Old School is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

What mic are you using? Can you post a photo of where the mic is positioned?
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  #3  
Old 11-30-2015, 04:28 AM
brentcn brentcn is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

You could do something like this:

https://images.static-thomann.de/pics/prod/249704.jpg
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  #4  
Old 11-30-2015, 05:43 AM
Lickety Britches Lickety Britches is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

I will post a pic when I get a chance. But it is an Audix D6, facing the beater straight on, maybe 4-5 inches away. Normally this wouldnt be my ideal positioning, but this was the position I found to sound the best. However, i tested these positions with the reso head off, since it would very difficult and take hours to test multiple positions with the head on.
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Old 11-30-2015, 05:55 AM
KamaK KamaK is online now
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

Just so we're clear: The sound that you don't like is that hi-mid frequency ring as if you were dribbling a basketball?

If so, the solution may be as simple as changing to a felt beater or another outside-the-drum idea. I imagine you could sort that out at the board as well using a narrow band filter.

While I completely understand the convenience/benefits of internal mic'ing, I have never been particularly fond of the results it produces.
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2015, 06:27 AM
Lickety Britches Lickety Britches is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

That is the sound I am referring to. All of those samples were played with a felt beater. I did this for a few reasons. I didnt want a port, but also I know how annoying an external mic can be. They always move with the bouncing/vibration of the stage, plus the sound guys dont always have best judgement or enthusiasm for mic placement so this just really makes everyones job much easier. But not if its going to sound worse.
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2015, 06:58 AM
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IDDrummer IDDrummer is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

A piece of foam or a rolled up towel in the bottom of the drum, even if it touches neither head, will absorb those "boingy" frequencies. I have also had better luck with the mic backed away as far as you can from the batter head, and aimed across the drum from edge to edge (within the capabilities of your mounting system).
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  #8  
Old 11-30-2015, 07:15 AM
KamaK KamaK is online now
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lickety Britches View Post
That is the sound I am referring to. All of those samples were played with a felt beater. I did this for a few reasons. I didnt want a port, but also I know how annoying an external mic can be. They always move with the bouncing/vibration of the stage, plus the sound guys dont always have best judgement or enthusiasm for mic placement so this just really makes everyones job much easier. But not if its going to sound worse.
I took your file, chopped off the beginning, looped the last 3 kick strokes, and demonstrate notching 2k, 3.3k, and 4.4k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_KcLqDD8bA

Take a listen (view in HD for HD audio) and see what you think. ~2k and ~4.4k are the big ones.

If I were doing live sound and this kit came in, I'd probably just rip out 1k-5k in its entirety and get on with it. Alternatively, I'd throw a mic in front of it.

Last edited by KamaK; 11-30-2015 at 07:29 AM.
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  #9  
Old 11-30-2015, 08:11 AM
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Morrisman Morrisman is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

I agree with ID Drummer - you need something inside to absorb the internal reflections. My 18" has an Emad2 batter and a Fibreskyn reso, no hole. I have a small piece of auralex foam (12" x 6") secured to the floor of the drum, and the drum sounds great both live and mic'ed.
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  #10  
Old 11-30-2015, 03:25 PM
Lickety Britches Lickety Britches is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

Kamak, thanks so much for the advice, and going the extra mile. My goal here is you get a great kick sound with no processing. Obviously they will probably do what they want with it, but I want to know that if we get a sound guy with less experience, I am still going to get a consistent kick sound. I will try the foam. Im sure I have some spare auralex somewhere.
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  #11  
Old 11-30-2015, 03:37 PM
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drummergirlgina drummergirlgina is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

You know, you can mount the Kelly SHU on the outside of the kick...
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  #12  
Old 11-30-2015, 03:43 PM
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drummergirlgina drummergirlgina is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

You know, you can mount the Kelly SHU on the outside of the kick...I use Audix microphones and mine is now pointed at the batter head but, tilted up about 30 degrees. I have also had good success pointing it at the resonant head (backward) inside the kick.
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2015, 04:31 PM
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gdmoore28 gdmoore28 is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
I took your file, chopped off the beginning, looped the last 3 kick strokes, and demonstrate notching 2k, 3.3k, and 4.4k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_KcLqDD8bA

Take a listen (view in HD for HD audio) and see what you think. ~2k and ~4.4k are the big ones.

If I were doing live sound and this kit came in, I'd probably just rip out 1k-5k in its entirety and get on with it. Alternatively, I'd throw a mic in front of it.

Good job, KamaK! But, am I the only one who thinks that the kick sounds quite good with the front head on? In that configuration, the bass sounds nice and warm, but has a tremendous click - right on the money as far as I'm concerned. I'd take that sound to the bank any day.

GeeDeeEmm
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  #14  
Old 11-30-2015, 04:44 PM
KamaK KamaK is online now
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdmoore28 View Post
Good job, KamaK! But, am I the only one who thinks that the kick sounds quite good with the front head on? In that configuration, the bass sounds nice and warm, but has a tremendous click - right on the money as far as I'm concerned. I'd take that sound to the bank any day.

GeeDeeEmm
IMHO, the ring at 2K is a bit... much. That's the basketball sound. The click at 4k is probably the desirable bit where metal-guys are concerned, and would be leveraged accordingly. The rest of what the mic is capturing looks/sounds absolutely fine to me.

The other posters appear to be correct. Its a reflection within the BD, and can be remedied via dampening/barrier at the expense of acoustic fidelity.

I mainly made the video to help identify the errant frequencies for the op.
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  #15  
Old 11-30-2015, 04:58 PM
calan calan is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

Echoing some other sentiments:

You need something to absorb the pipe resonance. I use two squares of auralex and just use the bungees of the SHU to hold them in place. That way they don't move or touch the head, but also aren't adhered to the shell.

I'd recommend grabbing or making a ported head to experiment more with placement before putting the full reso back on. You may want to try pointing more towards the bearing edge on the batter, towards the reso, or any of the other ideas. I like pretty much dead center of the drum facing the beaters, but I'm a wood beater using modern punchy kick sound type of guy, and I'm essentially getting that just by plugging in.
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  #16  
Old 11-30-2015, 05:00 PM
Lickety Britches Lickety Britches is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

I just fixed a sheet of auralex to the inside bottom of the shell and it helped immensely.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20Test%202.mp3
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  #17  
Old 11-30-2015, 05:18 PM
Lickety Britches Lickety Britches is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

Final update:

I Tried the mic facing the reso and while it did sound good, it wasn't quite what I was looking for with this application.

So I turned the mic back around but faced it down toward the bearing edge as Calan suggested and bam, got what I think is a pretty solid live rock kick drum. tell me what you think:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20Test%203.mp3
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  #18  
Old 11-30-2015, 05:24 PM
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Malleus Man Malleus Man is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lickety Britches View Post
I just fixed a sheet of auralex to the inside bottom of the shell and it helped immensely.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20Test%202.mp3
That worked!
Love that.
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  #19  
Old 11-30-2015, 11:44 PM
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gdmoore28 gdmoore28 is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

All three variations (no mods/auralex/angled mic) have something to say for them, but I still insist that the further you moved away from the "no mod" version (cut 3 in the first example), the less "drum" sound was there. I like my drum sound (using an internally mounted D6, as well) to display the full range of bass drum frequencies while allowing the audio curve built into the D6 to handle the objectionable parts. This, even though there have been a few instances where I engaged a 1/3 octave EQ to dial the BD for a particular room.

GeeDeeEmm
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  #20  
Old 12-01-2015, 02:11 AM
Lickety Britches Lickety Britches is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on my internal kick mic problem

I do agree, and if this was for a recording, I would be going for a much more natural sound (similar the "no mods" version). But this is for a live sound in a heavy alt rock band. So in my opinion, this would be a great sound for that certain application. Thankfully none of what I have done is permanent.
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